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macfarlan

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Everything posted by macfarlan

  1. I would say lots are doing just that. They'll be disappointed whichever way it goes.
  2. Wasnt me. I think the idea is that is a response for lots of people to see, not a letter to the leave campaign, oh never mind.
  3. There's a great rant on facebook at the moment in response to a brexit flyer coming through the letterbox. I thought people here might find it interesting; I said I’d stay out of it. I said I’d keep my opinions to myself, but I was tipped over the edge by arriving home today to find a pamphlet in my other half’s name, and on the same doormat, a lies-ridden rag in my own name. I started scribbling a response on it, which the intention of mailing it back to them, but after a few minutes listening to the sound of my own indignant breath snorting through my nostrils, I realised the only way I could expunge this fury was by battering my keyboard into submission. Respectfully, Vote Leave, I would like to unsubscribe from future communications, and here’s why: It is a pack of lies. Seriously, this is GCSE-level stuff. We as a country are about to take the biggest decision of several generations, one that could not feasibly be undone in my lifetime, and we’re being asked to do so on the basis of lies, half-truths, distortions and, in case that wasn’t enough to hoodwink you, a bit of old-fashioned racism to boot. Lie #1: Over a quarter of a million people migrate to the UK every year And over 300,000 people leave the UK every year ( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/…/Emigration-nation-who-are-the-… ) (but because they’re British, they’re called “Expatriots”). You can argue the toss about whether free movement of people within the EU is a good or a bad thing, but you cannot argue that it doesn’t work both ways. You can also argue the toss about whether immigration is a net good, but when a leading Leave campaigner comes out to say that immigration was only a positive until 2002 (when those nasty east Europeans were allowed in), I start to smell racism, and hear a dog-whistle. http://www.theguardian.com/…/immigration-could-overwhelm-br… Lie #2: The EU is expanding to include Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Turkey. Not strictly true this one. All of the above have expressed their interest in becoming members - in Turkey’s case, as far back as the 1980s - but none are close to having full membership just yet. Yes, Turkey does have a very large population, that’s right, and yes, new members would have the same rights… including a veto on new members. Does the UK have a veto on new members? Yes, it does. Unless it leaves, when it doesn’t. See also Lie #6. Lie #3: The EU has changed enormously since 1973 Thank you Sherlock; so have most places. I almost gave you a pass on this one, until I noticed the rather disingenuous claim about needing to prop up the Euro… erm, we’re exempt from Eurozone bailouts. Next. Lie #4: EU law over-rides UK law You almost had me on this one, but you need to look at the small print… immigration, counter-terrorism, prisoner voting… thaey are not ECJ decisions, but ECHR decisions. And that is a totally different story. Excuse me while I go off on a tangent… What they actually want to exempt us from is the European Convention of Human Rights, membership of which is a precondition of EU membership. They would instead replace the Convention with a British version - telling called “rights and responsibilities” - which would defeat the entire principle of universal human rights that we the UK helped to forge. Namely, that regardless what the government of a particular country thinks at any given time you are entitled to be treated with dignity. Why did we create this principle? Because about 65 years ago, one of our neighbour states changed its laws to allow itself to gas 6 million people within its territory. In doing so, they did nothing illegal but breached every standard of human decency. So after that, we decided it would be a good idea to write down that “standard of human decency” just in case anyone was in any doubt. So if you belive Lie #4 on the basis of the examples they offer there, then you are falling for one of the bigger porkies of human history. Lie #5: The EU costs us £350m a week This isn’t so much a lie as a cluster-lie. It’s several lies packed into one big one. Let me break it down a little: Lie #5.1 £350m a week. Which doesn’t count a) the rebate, b ) the funds we receive in EU grants for projects we’d otherwise have to fund out of government spending. Lie #5.2 Enough to build a new hospital… Spare me. Frankly, if you fall for this one you deserve all you get. Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Chris Grayling and Nigel Farage the defenders of the NHS and British public services? Despite their track records in government and / or stated public positions to the contrary? Lie #5.3 We have no control over how it’s spent Rubbish, because… Lie #5.4 That’s decided by politicians and officials in Brussels… Who we elect! Commisioners are appointed by member states governments, and the European Commission’s proposed laws are subject to ratification by the European Parliament, which is so democratic it actually gives anti-EU parties such as UKIP disproportionately more seats than their share of vote entitles them to. For example, in 2014 UKIP got 25% of the vote in the UK, and received 35% of the UK’s seats. In the British elections to the Holy Seat of Democracy the following year, they received 1m more votes and took home a paltry one seat. Lie #5.5 … not by the people we elect This is not technically a lie. They should be decided by the people we elect, but the ******* never turn up. ( http://www.independent.co.uk/…/ukip-meps-attend-the-fewest-… ) Lie #5.6 [On the reverse they equate this figure to £19bn a year] £19bn a year is about 2.4% of the UK government’s annual £770bn spending. So turn that into household budgeting… imagine you earn a typical salary of £35k, meaning you take home about £2,100 a month. The equivalent would be a subscription that cost you £51.66 a month. So, on a par with your gym membership or Sky Sports subscription. Lie #5.7 We get less than half of that back 49.2 % actually. That’s worse than Spain, which just about breaks even, and certainly much worse than Poland which contributes -22%. But compared to Germany, which only gets back 39%, we’re doing pretty well. More here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union Lie #6 You don’t have to be a member of the EU to trade with it First bit’s true. Switzerland’s a really bad example though. Why choose Switzerland when it undermines your argument so badly? Switzerland and Norway are part of the wider European Free Trade area, which allows them free access to the common market in return for accepting a few conditions like freedom of movement for EU citizens… which kind of undermines your racist fearmongering from Lie #1. And as for all UK firms having to obey EU rules, are these the rules you want to emancipate us from? https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CSgaiTdWoAAhYvD.jpg Lie #7 While we’re in the EU we can’t negotiate our own trade deals Two points in response to this: 1) the USA has already said that negotiating a trade deal with the UK wouldn’t be a priority, and 2) most small businesses don’t do import / export. There you’re just re-hashing lie #6. Lie #8 There are risks in voting either way Experts, politicians and business are divided. I’ll give you politicians, and maybe give you busin… nah, who am kidding? This is Captain Redbeard Rum’s “opinion is divided on the subject" which he clarified as "all the other Captains say it is, I say it isn’t.” Lie #9 [special Bonus Racist Dog Whistle] What the hell are Syria and Iraq doing on this diagram? Are they applying for EU membership too? So no, all in all, my mind’s made up, and I think you can save yourself some postage by taking me off the list.
  4. Yes, I also thought it was a mistake to take that angle. But the wider point that the elite are driving the whole thing is a useful one.
  5. The elite dont lead revolts. Thats why Brexit is a fake one. Decent point, but the article is mainly aimed at 'working class labour voters' who think brexit will work for them. So probably no-one on this forum.
  6. Crap. I'm sorry. Not being very helpful. I'll try an make a decent post later.
  7. Yes. The majority of posts on here don't make sense to me. I cant say Ive read it all, but as another poster alluded to, the thread is very one sided.
  8. Nope. I actually said what I meant to say. Your interpretation is just that.
  9. Great post. Thanks. You're only poster making any sense on this thread recently.
  10. and many amateur psychologists fail in their written descriptions; Behavior is observable, but intention is not. Thanks anyway, I'm sorry if I've gone on too much.
  11. I dont know what a false holier than thou attitude is, and dont know or care what point scoring is or what score it is. I'd already finished anyway. Of course I care about people. Carry on.
  12. She believed in a better world and she fought for it every day. RIP Jo Cox.
  13. Well chaps, it's plain for all to see that you really care. Discussing issues is one thing, to say she's responsible for destroying the country from within is something else entirely, especially as it seems that was her killers motivation. Have a word with yourselves.
  14. Good grief, she's not been dead 24 hours. Some people on here are really embarrassing themselves.
  15. He seems very intelligent and is highly respected, but I suppose you're entitled to your opinion. I think fear and distrust play a huge role, as demonstrated in the good read I posted above, but we probably wont agree on that.
  16. For info, it appears that Jo Cox's killer had links with far right groups.
  17. I know it's another Guardian link, but it's a good read. Britain is in the midst of a working-class revolt
  18. Just bookies responding to sentiment, it's part of what they do. Whether you like it or not, some people will inevitably pick up on the less tasteful elements of the brexit campaign. https://twitter.com/aiannucci/status/742621355288494080
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