Sunday, Aug 08, 2010
Not a thing.
Guardian: * Business * Financial crisis Credit crunch consequences: three years after the crisis, what's changed?
I can't wait any longer - in the light of all of this I am buying myself a pad in Oxford. Do I believe there will be a crash? Well I was there in 2003 telling everyone it was f**king crazy and they told me I was. In 2005 I should have been proved correct but the BoE bottled it. In 2007 the credit crunchhit and I just waited and saw half of what I thought. Now I forsee the steady erosion of my savings against inflation and no sign of base rate rises and rising value of sterling. For the first time ever, I believe that the government can not let houes prices fall more than 10% and in many areas less. rather, they would let them stagnate and no doubt extend mortgages to 40 year terms to make the problems of the day go away. If the market falls, I will trade up. :@?
51 Comments
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1. quiet guy said...
"capitalism is still flourishing"
Oh if only that were true. The capitalist solution to excessive borrowing is bankruptcy not ultra low rates and bank bailouts.
2. paul said...
Best quotes:
"Money was virtually free – in the case of Japan, where it had zero interest rates, it was literally free – and it was available in limitless quantities, which does not correspond to any definition of normalcy, so that created a bubble and bubbles burst."
Erm. That's what we have now ...
Capital, though, is still broadly in the same hands: "You have the same people making the most money, doing broadly the same thing, but – we hope – more sensibly and prudently," says Gieve.
"We hope"?!?! Shouldn't the consequences of the worst financial crisis in living memory be guarded against in future with something more than hope?
"When you get to the root of it, the crisis was not about the banks," he says. "It was the result of credit-driven growth. That we all feel wealthier because we are borrowing bigger mortgages and house prices are going up is misguided. A country gets rich by producing things.
Ah. I was the price of credit that was at fault then. As set by none other than ... the Bank of England! So what fundamental changes have we seen in the Bank of England learned from their catastrophic mistakes in the past? Oh, they've been given responsibility for financial stability now. Great.
3. Charlie Brooker said...
We already know the PTB will always use secretive central bank accouting, lies, deceit and even the threat of force to keep the charade going.
4. hpwatcher said...
I don't blame you brickormortis. No one would have thought that BOE and the UK government would be so mad as to put high house prices before UK economy and UK currency - but that's exactly what they have done.
It's just incredible that the responsible are made to pay for the excesses of the profligate - but that's exactly what is happening. Any house price falls - and we will merely see more QE to keep interest rates artificially low, and house prices high; nicely forcing people to spend their money and keep the market inflated.
5. techieman said...
interesting. It feels like this site is getting less and less visitors as people throw in the collective towel. That is a true contrarian indicator.... now if only we had some comments from smuggy et al to cement the sentiment.
Paul "As set by none other than ... the Bank of England!" really? thats debatable at best.
6. Caroline said...
Back in 2005 when our landlord increased our rent, my husband and I realised that we could be paying the same amount to a bank for a long term fixed rate mortgage and end up with something at the end. Our friends all told us we were mad as there was going to be a huge house price crash. Since then, our new flat went up in price insanely, then back down and then back up again. All the matters to me is that we have a nice place to live with a fixed rent (mortgage payment) that is now considerably below market rents for a similar flat. Oh and in 25 years time we will own it.
If the prices finally do actually crash then, fantastic, we could buy the flat next door and knock through or move to a nicer area. I still maintain that if you have to pay rent anyway you will always be better off within the property market, whether or not the 'crash' comes.
7. brickormortis said...
Let us not forget that the masses in the Con-Lib government and the powers at the BoE and in control of the media are all generally extremely wealthy both in their family history, personal wealth and salaried positions. They will protect as best they can their wealth which is largely connected with the survival of the property market both directly and indirectly.
I don't feel great about my decision but I need some roots and a home and not to feel like a parasitic scumbag by estate agents and landords having to rent their houses and pay their mortgages. I am angry that I have to pay more than I should and that we could all feel collectively much wealthier and in a better position to ride any future financial difficulties but that is the way it is. If I can fix a deal for a few years at low rates then that's some concellation.
i must add that I can see the buy to let bombshell looming up ahead clearer than ever. Current fixed rate deals for BTL are around 5.5-6.5%! Can you imagine.
Take a look at the trackers here and imagine what would happen if base reates returned to 3 or 4%?
http://www.rbs.co.uk/personal/mortgages/g2/buy-to-let.ashx
8. brickormortis said...
...and look at the product fees! No wonder the profits are so big!
9. Thetopgeezer said...
Hold the line....
10. Rental John said...
I'm with you brickormortis....
I jumped ship and sold my house (=cleared my debt mortgage debt, and took my decent equity) back in 2005, and have rented since then. My hope was to sit tight, get a bit of interest on my profit from being in the same house from 1993 until 2005....then buy back in when things adjusted to more sensible levels - I never wantd a full blown HPC just a return to affordable prices, and sensible interest rates. Also I was getting a bit extended with 2 kids at university (never saw that coming!). Times changed a little and rather than pay rent for 2 kids up in Manchester in shoddy student lets we decided to use that rent money instead on a mortgage on a terrace house (needed a bit of doing up so threw more cash on the bonfire) and have the kids live there until they both finish Uni (just happened this summer). In the meantime what cash we had left - is gaining naff all interest.
Now what do I do? Continue to rent ourselves (in Shropshire), rent out the house out in Manchester? Sell the house in Manchester while the going is still good? Then I could think about pulling together a decent deposit.....or do what? I do not know what is best in the short run - in the long run well who knows.
I've been screwed whichever way I turn (including some endownments I've still got running - fingers crossed on them).... We should have stayed in our original house with by now lower mortgage, but probably up to my eyes in debt (or equity release!) still be a 'home owner'.....and therefore hope the BoE and Government maintain their housing VI stance to protect me from my sins.
(By the way - the RBS tracking rates are shocking!)
11. techieman said...
brickormortis : "landords having to rent their houses and pay their mortgages". Well yes but if they bought that property now (and ignoring their deposit) its unlikely that you are paying ALL their mortgage.
Granted you will be if they bought it some years ago - depending on location / type etc. But we are not dealing with prices as they were then are we?
12. mrflibble said...
@brickormortis...
Now I foresee the steady erosion of my savings against inflation and no sign of base rate rises and rising value of sterling.
It is shocking that we have been reduced to this. If they have successfully engineered a 20 year grind down then living in this country is going to be very painful indeed. I would rather have 2-3 years of hell and then a real recovery than a continuation of the slow moving train wreck that we have witnessed for the last 3 years.
13. hpwatcher said...
It is shocking that we have been reduced to this. If they have successfully engineered a 20 year grind down then living in this country is going to be very painful indeed. I would rather have 2-3 years of hell and then a real recovery than a continuation of the slow moving train wreck that we have witnessed for the last 3 years.
There should be a law to protect the people of this country against politicians.
14. techieman said...
"there should be a law to protect the people of this country against politicians [who make the laws]"
Too funny!!! I almost choked on me cornflakes.....
Ultra vires rules uk ok?!?
BTW - whats with these recaptcha statements getting longer and longer .... or is it me?
15. Indebtforlife said...
I have to agree with Brickormortis. I have reached the same conclusion. I have been telling people since around the same time this bubble was crazy and prices were bound to fall. How wrong I have been proved and now I am being forced to accept that I was the mug and will have to spend the best part of my life paying off a staggering debt. My friends have the last laugh. I have a reasonable job and earn semi decent money I am single and childless and would assume that it will be too expensive to ever raise children. Before any off the bubble monsters come on a chide me for wanting to be a want it all gen Y. No all I expect is a level playing field one that has been denied by successive governments and the baby boomer centric policies. I still believe it will all end in disaster, I firmly believe this debt mountain is a greater threat to our way of life than any terrorist but what do I know, I have been wrong for the best part of 8 years now. The further irony is that I wont be able to save for a pension, the government doesnt care, I wont be able to buy, travel and support the consumer society they so want to maintain. However, don''t we get the government we deserve though.
16. clockslinger said...
The justification for massive public sector spending cuts is ideological rather than practical. It can be very convincingly argued (and has been by Nomura analysts amongst others) that cutting public spending is likely to make matters worse, and i is fantasy to suggest an export driven manufacturing sector can take up the slack. That kind of shift takes a gereration or more. Things will be bleak indeed for the average income household, but not for our rulers, owners of lager businesses (particularly large agribusiness) the banks and the supermarkets.
The fact that house prices are too high for most of us to afford is a side show to the bigger picture and will indeed become less and less of a concern for many of us on here, not because we give up and capitulate by buying but rather because, as we lose our jobs, can't find another and have to spend any savings we have on the exponetially inflating basics, such a prospect will disappear out of range. The exceptional posters who are skilled, lucky and informed enough to correctly judge and ride the waves in asset and currency markets may indeed outperform HPI, in which case they will buy a nice place and not be worried. However, the size of that tiny group is vastly over represented on this site.
We are in for a paradigm shift to the right greater than that under Thatcher, sanctioned by a poorly informed electorate given no real choices for years and repeatedly sold the myth that firstly that UK government debt default was a real possibility and secondly that the fault lay with spending on public goods and services rather than spending to bail out a failed model of "free market"capitalism.
Too late now. They have five years and the coming cuts are only the first. The fact that this website is popular is , if anything, a sign that things will only carry on as usual and likely get worse. Why? Because it is predicated on being interested in "home ownership", of getting a chance to "get on the property ladder". The best hope is for an abandonment of belief in any such system, for real unrest and organised confrontation for a radically different approach to taxation of high income and wealth. However persuasive the arguments for LVT etc, no meaningful reform, let alone lasting change, will be achieved through attempted persuasion by the poor and disorganised of the rich and powerful. It is up to us to sort it...admittedly a possibility reduced to the realm of the highly unlikely given the lack of politically motivated trade unions, widespread apathy, ignorance, an ingrained belief in owner occupation or any left wing political movement.
Rather a daily exhortation on HPC to take to the streets than analysis of Halifax indices.
17. Stevie Dee said...
I share your dissatisfaction brickomortis. As you so have wonderfully highlighted, who would have imagined what has happened in the last few years. You're not crazy, nor the many who submit opinions and articles on here. So my advice is to be philosophic and be proud of yourself that you have the intelligence to realise how corrupt and broken the current system really is. What is wealth? I have a degree, intelligence, etc, but i'm on benefits, happy living on £60 per week, living in a wonderful rented 2 bed apartment. I'm conscientious objector to the system, and am happy living in the knowledge that i live in a society or regime, where fantasy, hedonistic, bullsh!t prevails. Keep the faith, as we are in a period of transition or revolution. It's not that i've lost hope, it's that i recognise you have to be patient, but also be humble and happy with what you got. In comparison to many countries our QOL is far lower. And thank our lucky stars we don't live in the sahara. Don't be despondant, things will change.
18. markj69 str05 said...
@brickormortis... I really do feel your pain. Like a lot of people I too have been waiting for the desperately needed correction, since 05!!! Only to be scuppered by poor IR decisions, QE, and now low IR - (Decisions protecting the stupid, and hurting the prudent). No-one can second guess what's going to happen, globally or nationally. High risk dicision for all, keep renting or buy now??? Personally, the family home we'd always drempt of is still out of reach, and the kids are growing up fast, in a rented property, with no real feeling of what i would call 'home'. It's a 'stop-gap' which has lasted for 5 yrs now! And it could go on ('it' being the protection of high house prices), for years to come.
I thoug we'd have a dramatic crash, but in the absence of this a controlled correction over time would still be welcome. However, the erratic, unknown, instabillity of prices seen over the last 3 years (up/down/up), does not give me any confidence. I'll keep on waiting, much to the dissapointment of MrsJ.
19. markj69 str05 said...
Also, good luck with your purchase. However, how will you 'trade up', if market falls wipe out your equity? Unless you are in a financial position allowing you to do this? Which most people are not!
20. Happy Mondays said...
brickormortis, sorry to hear this, but totally understand..It will not always be like this, you only have to read the comments from the report to see there are alot of naffed off people out there ...These crazy inflated prices of property will fall, but only when our society realise we are being shafted by big business & that day is close. Unfortunately we have been standing behind each other like lemmings to get strapped up in debt, which most should not have been able to borrow,we have been scammed, but the end game is near..
I too have pondered the idea, but refuse to join in this, i feel i would be giving in to these parasites & help prop up property prices for future generations..However good luck to you in what ever you decide..
21. sureseam said...
Now then ... last time around the stock market crashed in October 1987.
House prices headed down a couple of years later and kept going down for quite a long while.
If you really, REALLY have to, HAVE TO buy now then for goodness sake pick carefully - in a real bear housing market some properties will find a buyer and others won't at almost any price.
22. tyrellcorporation said...
@ Brikormortis. I've given up too. I've watched prices in Exeter climb 15% in the last 12 months alone and I am on the cusp of being totally priced out for good. I'm currently looking at 3 houses and I'll probably buy one of them in the next 2-3 weeks.
Contrarian indicator perhaps but now I really don't give a sh**! It's only money after all and we're probably not too far away from a point where portions of mortgage debt are literally written off by governments for the good of the wider economy.
A new paradigm indeed!
23. mrflibble said...
The market always fools you, just when you think it's going to carry on in a certain direction and you shove your money down the sodding thing tops or bottoms out. I'd think very carefully before you buy a place right now guys as the rally of the last 12 months is topping out. The downside risks of staying out far outweigh the upside gains of buying in that much we do know.
24. mrflibble said...
Ignore that last sentence it's FUBAR...
25. Viapori said...
My first post ever on this forum (be kind) but I have been a regular lurker for a while...
As long as people have this fixation about a place of "their own" and are hook-line-and-sinker into the "ownership" idea then some will be bolting to buy in moments when the spin (0% rates = affordability?) can rope in a few more for the bottom of the pyramid? Don't do it.
...Find a place you like that's nice to live in, schools, amenities, whatever suits your lifestyle and rent into a decent standard of living that you would not be able to "buy" into (and don't buy into a suburban crap hole miles from anywhere).
I rent and plan to for a long time because where we are (in EU but not UK) our rent is 50% of the cost of a 350K Euro mortgage it might cost to buy the place we live in. If the investment entity that owns our rented accommodations doesn't feel that hiking the rent 100% is realistic than what does that say for the valuations of local co-located private properties?
26. letthemfall said...
I think clockslinger's analysis is probably correct, depressing though it is.
But as mrflibble says (or meant to say), the chance of substantial house price falls is considerably greater than rises. There are unusual conditions maintaining prices, but I do not think this can continue indefinitely. If the typical house price cycle is about 18 years, as it seems to be, one should expect to rent for half that time if attempting to get best value housing.
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28. brickormortis said...
@ techieman:
In Oxford it is highly likely that I am paying all of their mortgage or even more likely that they have no mortgage at all. Rich arrogant f**kers in my opinion! And I say that from experience!
29. brickormortis said...
@ markj69 str05 said
I will trade up by placing a 25% deposit and when my fix expires in two years making sure that I have another 25% of the same value so I will be easily able to. If prices fall by 25% then I will have 25% of the same price as before except the house will be much bigger.
I don't like having to do it but it is in Oxford and easy access to London on bus shuttle and train and demand is exceptionally high in town.
30. brickormortis said...
@mrflibble said
i agree. I would much ratehr the short sharp shock but that hasn't happened and will be defended against till the last! It will be defended long enough to allow inherited wealth to wash down and save a good many!
31. cynicalsoothsayer said...
According to the estate agents in Edinburgh, it's heading down. The Gobberment will really struggle to keep prices up where they are even if they wanted to.
32. novice pete said...
If you really must buy now, then the best of luck.
@techieman,
would you describe the general economy as being in a secular bear market or is that too sweeping a statement?
p.s. think i just dived into the deep end.
33. brickormortis said...
I have also realised that the UK will nl ever give up on the idea of investing in bricks and mortar. The people of UK will go for Bricks over other retirement funds every tme and while BTLers are offered such tax breaks on their interest, it is unlikely that proeprty will fall too much. In truth, the low interest rates now are allowing overpayments which will allow a few more years of support should rates rrise. In truth, most landlords and prooperty owners are milesbetter off now than pre-crunch - if you still have your job!
By the way, I am really struggling to read these reCaptha things. I mean REALLY struggling!
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35. novice pete said...
@brickormortis,
reCaptcha sucks at the moment.
puthoper schools?
36. Bobomobo said...
I understand and support brickormortis's decision. I also live in Oxford and am in the process of buying a house. Reasons?
- I had a decent deposit and saw no way of protecting it from the inflation. Savings accounts are a joke in the UK. I could have invested the money into a mutual fund, but that would be too risky for me, plus all the hidden management fees would make it hardly my while. I simply saw no alternative for protecting my money. True, houses will probably get cheaper in real terms, but I don't really care: by having a house of my own I will have some stability in my life and some sense of roots, something no deposit certificate would give me. As long as there are no substantial losses in nominal terms over the next five years, I don't really care which way the prices go.
- I managed to get a 5 year fixed mortgage of 4.44%. My monthly rate will be higher than my current rent, but the interest part of each monthly payment will be actually lower than rent. So I'll be actually saving money; I just won't be paying it into a savings account (and then fear that my bank might go under). Plus, if I were to rent the house I bought, I would be paying way much in rent than what my monthly mortgage rate would be. All in all, given the present mortgage rates, now seems like a good time to buy and get a long-term fixed rate.
- I don't view my house as an investment or a pension fund: I just need a nice place to live. I am tired of being at mercy of leeching estate agents and landlords who think they can rent out a dated and noisy one bedroom flat in Oxford for £1000/month. I am tired of blue carpets and yellow walls. The system in the UK is just not designed for long-term renting.
In fact, my main motivation is the latter: I don't care about investment, I just want to get on with my life. I am just puzzled with why this seems to be such a strange position. I mean, if people had thought of houses as primarily places to live, we wouldn't have been in this place, would we?
37. Tenyearstogetmymoneyback said...
brickormortis wrote "In Oxford it is highly likely that I am paying all of their mortgage or even more likely that they have no mortgage at all."
How much are you guys paying ? Based on the last land registry data I pay about 2.55% of this properties value.
The top house at £1100 a month http://www.saxonmanagement.co.uk/view_results.php?bedrooms=0&location=Highcliffe
is about five door down the road from a chalet that just sold for with an asking price of £430K
I think the only explanation is that the landlords don't think they can get a better safer return (try getting more than 2.5% on savings) and are hoping for capital gains.
I have to admit it will be tempting to buy next years when (fingers crossed) I should have enough to buy somewhere similar to the
3 bed I sold in 1999 for cash.
38. techieman said...
novice pete @ 23 - i describe the stock market as a secular bear - with a bear squeeze at the moment... not too controversial. I think within the next year we will re test the S&P mark of the beast lows.......
Hope that helps.... can of worms closed?
39. cyril said...
I've been thinking of trading up for a while now, and I have been waiting for the crash since about 2001. (So don't trust my judgement).
But my company has just announced that it is downsizing so I'm going to wait and see what happens to my job before I take the plunge.
Personally I think anyone is mad to buy a house now because there will be lots of redundancies over the next year or so from the shrinking public sector. At the moment the govt is in its honeymoon period but it will start to get nasty from September onwards IMO.
40. Major Des Aster. said...
I truly feel sorry for the people who sold to rent. Who would have predicted interests would have been slashed? STRs have had their equity from a previous house sale eroded by inflation and house prices have barely dropped.
The truth is that this bubble is too big to burst.
I suspect savers will have to be robbed of their savings to ensure an orderly deflation of this massive bubble.
The only way for a sharp house price correction would be a good old fashion Run on a Bank. I cant see any other way interest rates will go up unless savers threaten to take there money elsewhere.
41. novice pete said...
techieman@26
nice & cool, I dig it.
42. titaniccaptain said...
43. titaniccaptain said...
Sorry couldn't resist that......
If your reading this comment and it's Monday morning then turn this up very loud and dance around your office/room where your PC is and if anyone gets in the way....head-butt them (Even if its a member of your immediate family or work colleague)
Now then back to normality...As many of you know I have also bought a house (Down at least 40% from 2007 peak after selling mine for the same reduction) but there is huge regional differences in this crash and a crash it is.
BRICKAMORTIS....I can show you examples of houses in different regions ( I have bought a house in an area that includes Robert Plant from Led Zep, Labi Siffre and many other famous artists as its inhabitants yet the house I bought is a 3 double bedroomed Victorian terraced house with conservatory for under 180k....go back to 2007 and it would have sold in a week for nearly double) where the prices vary depending on your proximity to London.
I am currently renting a 4 bed LUXURY town house (It really is rather nice) outside Abergavenny in parkland setting but 5 min walk from the town centre for £750 per month......compare that to the south east and you would be hard to get a 2 bed with a garden.
What conclusion can be drawn from my drunken ramblings (Other than I am a lucky/pretentious pr*ck)....
Well....
Not a lot......
For goodness sake chaps we are all on a one way ticket to the grim reaper (if you believe in one or not) so cheer up and pull your plonkers out...ladies you can also do your bit for ridiculousness in a similar manner...
Anytime you rise, I'm here,
And I'm crazy for you pink thing.
You make me want to laugh,
You make me want to cry,
When I stroke your head I feel a hundred heartbeats high,
Pink thing.
I want to take you out and show you round the world,
Pink thing it'll be OK.
If I could only wake you from your slumber curled,
Pink thing what would straight folks say?
That man isn't fit to enter heaven.
That man is a sinner,
Ever burning in disgrace.
Pink thing, spit in my face,
I'd love you for it.
Anytime you call, I'll fall,
Into madness for you pink thing.
You make me want to live.
You make me want to die.
And when I stroke your head I feel a hundred heartbeats high,
Pink thing.
I want to take you out and show you to the girls,
Pink thing they're a whole new tribe.
If you could only see the way the way the gingham swirls,
Pink thing it's a whole new vibe.
That man isn't fit to be a father.
That man is a sinner,
'Fore they cast me down to die,
Pink thing, spit in my eye,
I'd love you for it.
Yes, I'd love you for it.
Anytime you rise, I'm here,
And I'm crazy for you pink thing.
You make me want to laugh,
You make me want to cry,
When I stroke your head I feel a hundred heartbeats high,
Pink thing.
Hundred heartbeats high,
Pink thing.
Hundred heartbeats high.
I want to introduce you,
Take you to the brink thing.
I want to introduce you,
Tell me what you think thing. I want to introduce you,
Make that missing link thing.
Don't you think it's time you met some female pink thing?
You make me want to laugh,
You make me want to cry,
So why is it I'm happy when there's tears down in your eye?
Little pink thing.
Oh Dear that is a rather creepy song....if it were not for the superb short guitar solo at 1 min 55 secs and ludicrousness of the song I would resign it to the distasteful bin....
44. This comment has been removed as it was found to be in breach of our Blog Policies.
45. techieman said...
TC you been doing the crystal meth absinthe combo again? :-)
46. Mark Wadsworth said...
BOM, do not throw in the towel, you're just making things worse for everyone :-(
Apart from that, what QG says at 1 and Techie at 4. The govt are fast running out of ammunition (i.e. sources of easy credit to keep the bubble inflated). As to "roots", do tenants not have "roots"? We've been renting for two and a half years, we are in the same jobs, the kids go to the same schools, we have the same friends etc etc.
47. titaniccaptain said...
OH BOY WAS I DRUNK........
Sorry all......
Its like I revert back to Dr Jeckle/Dr David Banner and have to clear up the mess left the morning after The Hulk/Mr Hyde has been on the prowl the night before....
Woke up in the garden surrounded by my sons WWE wrestler figures.....goodness knows.
@Techie
It was the Scrumpy's fault.....like spinach to Popeye......superb night though in a country pub, the spill over from Brecon Jazz now called Brecon Fringe is actually better than The Jazz festival itself.
Would hate to have me in the audience...>I kept trying to mix the band's sound by yelling "Not enough treble on the lead vocals and you need to turn the rhythm guitar down or trim the mid".
I would hit someone like me if I was in the audience....one day I might leave a comment on here that is not about myself and actually has a bearing on house prices.
Must go and have a fried breckie....TTFN
48. techieman said...
Light entertainment TC - i am sure you are forgiven... made me smile at any rate.
I am impressed that you can be that drunk and negotiate the Recaptcha demon, which is getting more and more silly as time goes by. [and no im not going to embed the youtube "play it again sam" vid].
49. mark wadsworth said...
@ Titanic, the best sound check related comment I ever heard was from the lead guitarist in the heavy metal band that was on before us.
With a straight face, he told the chap at the mixing desk "Can I have more transparency in the mid tones please? I have no idea what that means but I know it sounds good."
50. titaniccaptain said...
@Techie....."I am impressed that you can be that drunk and negotiate the Recaptcha demon".......
I diddn't...
That was my alter ego ....Ego being the operative word who is even more egotistical a control freak than myself....weird talking in the third person about a possible separate personality....oh dear :-(....
@Wadsworth....
"transparency in the mid tones"....that's a classic....sounds like typical musician B*llox...I know I say S**t like that myself....you have to....its a way of expressing yourself to a sound engineer politely without saying "Turn the mid up you smelly long haired, biker, dungeons and dragons fanatic with no muscle mass and who has only had sex with desperate p*ssed old women when they are so drunk they can't see straight".....
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