2. techieman said...

Alternatively.....

http://www.thedailycrux.com/reports/internal/20100607-CRX-Prechter-Report.asp


"Why deflation is a huge danger right now:
An interview with Robert Prechter
The following interview is sure to rile up the Crux readership...

It's focused on what is likely the central investment question of our time: "Is crazed government bailout and stimulus spending going to produce runaway inflation? Or are banks and consumers in such bad shape that demand for goods, loans, and services is set to head lower, which will produce deflation and lower prices?"

The Daily Crux staff expects inflation in the long term. But we have no crystal ball... and neither does anyone else. We believe in the approach offered by our friend and master investor Chris Weber: Prepare your portfolio for either to happen. We believe in being educated on both the argument for inflation AND the argument for deflation. We'll take our clues from the market on which is right.

To get the latest on the argument for deflation, we talked with one of the world's highest profile and most outspoken investment gurus in the deflation camp, Robert R. Prechter, Jr.

Prechter is the founder and president of Elliott Wave International, an independent financial forecasting firm. He has garnered a wide following with his long career of correct market calls using a type of market model called the "Elliott Wave Principle," which incorporates the idea that markets are driven by waves of optimism and pessimism.

In December 1989, Financial News Network (now CNBC) named him "Guru of the Decade." He's also a New York Times best-selling author of 14 books on investing and finance, including Elliott Wave Principle in 1978, which forecasted a 1920s-style stock market boom, and Conquer the Crash in 2002, which predicted the current debt crisis. He's a popular speaker at investment conferences, and his work on crowd psychology – called "Socionomics" – is some of most insightful analysis you'll read on the subject.

For Robert's take on the "inflation vs. deflation" argument, read on.

The Daily Crux: Hi, Bob. Thanks for talking with us today.

You've been a successful market analyst for over 30 years, but over the last several years you've become well-known for your outspoken calls for deflation and a big bear market in stocks. In fact, you're probably one of the few market experts calling for outright deflation.

Robert Prechter: That's for sure. You can count staunch deflationists on one hand. There are so few that I can name them.

Crux: Most of our readers are familiar with the arguments for inflation... we already saw a crash in 2008. The Federal Reserve and the government responded to the crisis by "printing money," easing credit, and bailing out the banks and big financial institutions. All this easy money and credit will lead to inflation.

Can you give us a brief, easy-to-understand explanation of how deflation could happen in a paper-money, reserve currency system like ours, and why you think it's likely?

Prechter: Sure... in the simplest terms, creditors will stop lending, which will keep the credit supply from inflating. And debtors will default, causing the supply of outstanding debt to deflate. This will overwhelm government and central-bank efforts to inflate, and will result in deflation. These trends have already begun.

Believe me, I understand people's resistance to this scenario. The case for runaway inflation seems so logical.

Over the past eight years, the Fed's lending rates have twice fallen to zero, meaning that credit is free. The Fed has created $1.5 trillion of new money. Central banks around the world have offered unlimited, cost-free credit. The government is spending money like mad. And the Fed and the Treasury have bailed out or guaranteed another trillion or two of bad debt and promise to do even more. Oh, and the Chairman of the Fed swore eight years ago that he would drop money from helicopters.

There is only one problem with the logic involved: It does not lead us to present conditions.

In the great inflations of history – such as what occurred in Germany in the 1920s and Zimbabwe in the 2000s – several things happened. The money supply zoomed. Interest rates soared to double and triple digits. Commodity and stock prices went up. Consumer prices rose relentlessly. And people raced to get rid of money as fast as they got hold of it.

Today, not one of these events is happening. In fact, the opposite is happening.

M3 (a measure of the amount of money and credit in the system) is contracting at its fastest pace since the 1930s. Interest rates on Treasury bills are stuck at zero. The CRB index of commodities is at half its value of just two years ago. The stock market is lower than it was 10 years ago. The PPI and CPI (measures of producer and consumer prices) have a zero rate of change.

People are struggling to get anyone to part with a dollar. They can't get loans, they can't sell their houses, and they can't land a job. And Wal-Mart is cutting prices. This is the "Bizarro" version of Germany and Zimbabwe: everything's backwards.

Crux: Well, not everything. Gold is at all-time highs...

Prechter: And so are Toronto real estate and vintage wine. But let's put these markets in perspective.

There have been three great credit-inflation peaks over the past 10 years.

In 2000, many stock markets around the world stopped going up.

In 2006, real estate stopped going up.

In 2008, commodities stopped going up.

Stocks, commodities, and real estate are three massive markets worldwide.

Here in 2010, a few late bloomers are making new all-time highs. I never thought the long-term inflationary topping process would take this long, but it has.

At each of these peaks, investors have focused on one area or another. Every time it's happened, the area of focus has reversed trend, plummeting in price by 50% or more.

This latest credit reflation is the weakest yet, so it hardly inspires confidence that today's isolated bull markets will end any differently. Each time a bull market matures, investors are sure it can't reverse. They said that about technology and Internet stocks; they said it about real estate; they said it about oil.

Now that a couple of markets are at all-time highs, we hear the same argument about them. This is natural, because investors always want to own markets that are way up. But investors in those previous booms are never going to get back to break even. Many of them were ruined.

Crux: OK, but what do you say to the argument that the Fed has the power to create inflation – to create an unlimited amount of money and credit, and inject it into the economy – at will? And because of this deflation is practically impossible.

Prechter: This is the argument I answered way back in early 2002 in my book, Conquer the Crash. Ever since it came out, the Fed has offered unlimited credit. It has been injecting money. Yet there has been no runaway inflation.

There are so many problems with this argument that I can't fit them all in a short space. But I'll mention four key points.

First of all, the banks are ruined. They lent out every penny of deposits, and their loans are increasingly non-performing. They can't borrow any new money, because they're already underwater. And consumers are also broke, so they can't borrow more, either. Unlimited Fed credit is irrelevant. No one can afford to pay banks interest anymore.

Second, the only active creditors left are sovereign governments. And as Greece proved, governments have limits. They can't print their way out, because creditors will abandon them if they do. They need their creditors too much to choose printing.

Greece agreed to austerity. Britain is talking about austerity. The Tea Partiers are demanding austerity. At some point, members of Congress will have to stop borrowing and spending, because voters will oust them if they don't.

Third, the idea that the Fed can inflate "at will" is going to be challenged.

Is the Fed going to monetize – what's often referred to as "money-printing" – another $57 trillion worth of dollar debt, shore up trillions more of foreign debt and guarantee $600 trillion worth of derivative promises? Not likely.

Can the Fed's $2.3 trillion balance sheet – already over-inflated – keep a quadrillion dollars worth of worldwide IOUs from imploding? Not a chance.

Its own governors are already fighting about the monetization it orchestrated in 2008-2009. The Fed has been historically accommodating so far, but cracks are appearing in its resolve. Some of its own governors disagree on Bernanke's extreme policies, and that's after monetizing only 1/7 of 1% of the world's outstanding IOUs.

Fourth is the crucial importance of social psychology. Voters are getting angry about the bailouts. Congress is talking about auditing the Fed for the first time since it was created in 1913. Suddenly, Ron Paul is popular, and he wants to abolish the Fed.

These changes are not random. They come about because of the trend away from a positive social mood and toward a negative social mood.

To use a historical example, the downtrend in social attitudes starting in 1835 resulted in the complete elimination of the U.S. central bank. The Fed is ultimately either sanctioned or destroyed by the people, and people's attitudes change. It could easily happen again.

Publications like yours – by pointing out the terrible dangers of central banking and hyperinflation – are helping to promote this new change in social attitudes. People are becoming terrified of inflation and sick of the borrowing that spurs it.

That's a good thing in the long run... but it will actually help bring about deflation.

Crux: But, can't the Fed simply "print" money if it appears deflation is starting to win? The "drop money from helicopters" analogy you mentioned earlier? Wouldn't that prevent outright deflation, and lead to inflation or even hyperinflation as the dollar is devalued?

Prechter: To begin with, the printing analogy is flawed. The Fed does not operate a press, as the government of Zimbabwe did. It creates new money only when it buys IOUs. This may seem to be a distinction without a difference, but it's actually very important. These IOUs are the Fed's assets, and it doesn't want worthless assets backing its notes.

Even if the Fed were to monetize every dime of currently outstanding, dollar-denominated debt, it would create no net inflation. The money-plus-credit supply would be the same. And price levels – especially for investments – are based on the total of monetary assets, not just base money.

Even so, there is no way that the Fed will buy up the entire world's stock of lousy IOUs. It has always wanted pristine assets on its books. Remember, it didn't buy Fannie and Freddie's IOUs until it got the Treasury to guarantee them.

Then there is the so-called moral hazard – not that the Fed cares about morality – meaning that if the Fed were to begin buying everyone's IOUs, people would immediately issue more IOUs as fast as they could and sell them to the Fed. It couldn't keep up with the volume.

But these scenarios are fantasies. In reality, self-preservation will eventually motivate the Fed just as it motivates every other institution.

Buying too many worthless assets would cause the Fed's self-destruction, and I think it will balk at going that far.

Crux: OK, so you don't think the Fed will go that far... but what if the government got involved and tried to inflate its way out by issuing massive amounts of Treasury bonds to the Fed? Wouldn't that create inflation?

Prechter: If the government tried to do that, bond holders would get spooked and interest rates would go up and stay ahead of the printing. At the same time, other credit prices would implode. When the supply of credit is far bigger than the supply of money – and it is by a huge margin – credit can contract faster than new bonds can be printed. The net result would still be deflation.

But this is not the most likely scenario. Have you noticed that even the Fed chairman has been telling Congress it needs to stop spending and borrowing? The Fed doesn't want this to happen any more than other creditors do.

If the Treasury's interest rates do soar, it will much more likely be due to fear of government default. If the government is forced to pay higher and higher rates, it will become a black hole for money. Spiraling Treasury rates would suck money from other sources, causing banks, municipalities and companies to fail, ruining all of their debts, which would be deflationary.

Crux: Will hyperinflation ever happen in the U.S.?

Prechter: It certainly might. But it could only happen after the bond market implodes, not before. Then, if politicians get hold of a press, they might decide to print. But this is political conjecture, not monetary analysis. First, we have to cross the deflationary valley, and this could take longer than almost anyone thinks.

Crux: You're saying that inflation is possible, but that it can't happen until deflation has run its course... so what signs will you be looking for to indicate deflation is over and that inflation is beginning to become a danger?

Prechter: A banking crisis, in which thousands of banks have closed their doors. Unemployment at 33%. A ruined private and municipal bond market. And a panic in government bonds.

If all those things happened, then you would have to be on the lookout for legislation allowing the government to take over the printing of money, or to force the Fed to monetize new federal debt at a rapid rate. But I think we will have to see all those things before hyperinflation will become possible.

If all of that happens, trade all your greenbacks immediately for gold and raw land.

Crux: Are there any scenarios in the meantime that would make you think you may be wrong about deflation and that inflation was becoming a threat?

Prechter: If the S&P 500 index, real estate, and the CRB commodity index all take out their price highs of 2006-2008, it would probably be enough to indicate runaway inflation. We keep a very close eye on all the key markets and will try to be ahead of any such development.

Crux: What do you think about buying gold as a crisis hedge? You're often pegged in the media as anti-gold.

Prechter: I love gold. It's money. Our fiat system has no money, just debt. Outlawing gold as money in the U.S. was one of the most harmful decisions the government ever made. Our economy would thrive if contracts denoted payment in gold instead of paper.

That being said, there has been no worse investment than silver over the past 30 years, and gold has not done much better. You have to pick your markets and your spots.

In 2001, 95% of futures traders polled for the Daily Sentiment Index thought gold was going lower... That was a bottom. Now, 98% of them think it's going higher... This is probably not a bottom.

Also – and I know this will sound controversial – gold is not a crisis hedge. It's an inflation hedge. In crises, people want money. During the serious part of the debt implosion, dollar bills and surviving dollar-denominated IOUs will likely go up in value faster than gold, which means the price of gold will probably fall for a time.

Debtors owe dollars, and creditors are owed dollars... that's what they'll need and that's what they'll want back.

But I believe – maybe it's more of a hope – that the days of fiat money are numbered. The only solution to our monetary problems is to get government out of the money business. Like every other business in which government becomes involved, this one has become polluted beyond recognition.

But I also think it's wrong to advocate going to a government gold standard. Governments always eventually ignore such standards. An English pound used to be worth a pound of silver. What's it worth now?

Private institutions should provide money. Companies like GoldMoney are already doing it. That's the model for the future.

Crux: If deflation is coming, how do you recommend investors prepare for it?

Prechter: Investors should be primarily in greenback cash and Treasury bills, while holding a core position in gold-bullion coins and bags of U.S. silver coins, sometimes called "junk silver."

They should hold no corporate bonds, municipal bonds, mortgage debt, auto debt, credit card debt, foreign debt – aside from Swiss money-market claims, which are the Swiss equivalent of T-bills – or any other IOUs that will soon evaporate in value.

They should own no stocks or investment property. Experienced traders should be short the S&P.

Anyone who wants detailed instructions on how to do all this should read the second half of Conquer the Crash, which is a manual on how to take advantage of a deflationary environment.

Crux: That's quite a list... Any closing comments?

Prechter: I realize my forecast for deflation differs from most bears' views, and calling for a depression really differs from the bulls' views, but I'm convinced that deflation and depression are already underway and about to get much, much worse.

I really appreciate your open-mindedness in posting my thoughts. Thanks for the forum!

Crux: You're welcome. Thanks for talking with us.

Prechter: My pleasure. "

So in summary, you pays your money and makes your choice....

recaptch : guest that

4. Dan1el said...

'Some say that the Fed's QE policies have failed. I profoundly disagree. The US property market - and therefore the banks - would have imploded if the Fed had not pulled down mortgage rates so aggressively, but you can never prove a counter-factual.
The case for fresh QE is not to inflate away the debt or default on Chinese creditors by stealth devaluation. It is to prevent deflation. '

[The grinning] Ambrose Pritchard Evans.

How nice to be of an age where, you were able to afford a house, and your point of view is aligned with your own wallet.

6. drewster said...

Could we see deflation in the USA and inflation in the UK simultaneously?

8. uncle tom said...

Drewster,

It's not impossible..

10. mark said...

supermarkets claim they are suffering because prices are going down. I see no evidence of this, in fact most of the food items we buy have stayed same price however they contain less, example a box of fish fillets used to have six in box now it has five in box, the box does not state the weight nor amount of fillets, so it is easy to scam customer

12. bellwether said...

With the stock market at dow 10000, and us bond yields on 5 yr notes at 2%, commercial property 40 % underwater, an unprecedented and growing contraction in US consumer credit - despite a fiscal blitz and ZIRP it is clear that deflation has the upper hand. Add to that 10% unemployment in the US and a consumer who is maxed out and who, in any event, no longer wants to borrow it is pretty plain that deflation has the upper hand.

Inflation arguments for now are a function of wish fulfilment, the prudent hoping that things will get so very cheap that all the world is a bargin, and they are rewarded for being good, for their years of industry and delayed gratification. Who hoping for lower house prices (me included) cannot rail against attempts to keep prices pumped up, but to see what is really going on one has to detach from mere self intrest.

14. simon68 said...

Japan is a good example. Consumer price inflation but house price deflation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

16. hpwatcher said...

Japan is a good example. Consumer price inflation but house price deflation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And in the UK - everything is going up.

18. simon68 said...

UK family either facing the risk of redundancy or 2 years pay freeze at best for public services, however VAT is going to rise, imported goods are more expensive than before. How can they balance their budget? Facing shrinking income but rising expenditure, all they can do is to prioritise.

Can UK family live without owning a house? Yes, they can rent.

Can UK family do not pay council tax? No, they must pay it.

Can UK family walk miles to office? No, they need to drive or use public transport.

Can UK family do not pay electricity, gas and other utility? No, they will be living in a jungle without paying the bill.

Can UK family do not shop and eat? No, they must shop and pay supermarket bill.

20. quiet guy said...

hpwatcher,

The deflationist argument is that the total of money supply and credit is contracting overall and hence we are in a deflationary phase.



When I first came across the inflation vs deflation state, I found it hard to believe that we could get deflation due to my deep distrust of our central bank who is not interested in savers i.e. an emotional response. I have no doubt that our government would love to inflate away and screw savers along the way. The problem is that they have so far failed to do so.

I'm not ruling out inflation in the future but so far, the deflationists seem to be winning the argument.

22. simon68 said...

China is the second largest oil consumption country in the world. China is also the world’s largest copper consumption country.

If you want to inflation or deflation; just ask the Chinese.

24. titaniccaptain said...

Inflating out of debt is impossible.

Why?

Ever heard of Index linked pensions?

They alone would sink the country.......imagine the tax grab to service them!

26. bluebeach said...

Simon, I don't think it's possible for you to have just "one last word"...............

28. This comment has been removed as it was found to be in breach of our Blog Policies.

30. bellwether said...

HPW my point at 10 was a compressed one (and in fairness in part not that clear) - in arguing for inflation, you are hoping for a reaction, for an end to the stimulus which will then see the valuation descent which you secretly hope for.

The tell is that if you were simply observing inflation you would be forever talking about how to react/invest in an inflationary environment, rather than protetsts about how unfair it all is.

As an aside I posted some intresting stuff from the Pragmatic Capitalist over the past week or so. Did you read?

32. hpwatcher said...

you would be forever talking about how to react/invest in an inflationary environment

I do and I have, but not always on these boards. But, I suppose I am just living in hope for the defining moment of deflation - and that you are right - and prices will drop etc. Sadly, I'm just not seeing it.

34. hpwatcher said...

just plain wrong hpw. Have a look at the shadow stats site . That is up to date and shows a contraction !

We can talk about graphs all day - and exactly what data has been/not been included - but the fact is that UK prices simply aren't really dropping but increasing. Sorry to have to remind you of this basic fact.

36. simon68 said...

If you study the reason for US government to hide M3 data, and compare the M3 chart with timing of the BRIC, Middle East Countries and Japan to dispose of US treasury notes/bonds, you should know where the money gone!!!

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/2760/ustreasury.gif

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/9224/moneysupply.gif

38. hpwatcher said...

well you said look at the graph not me! The graph is out of date and since the article is about the us then your position is flawed

It isn't flawed at all, so long as prices continue to rise. But it's the totality of credit that will provide the inflation, the fact that it may be dropping at this particular point in time will not excuse the excesses of the past.

40. techieman said...

contraction in m3 is deflation ! That is the definition! perhaps in the uk - at the moment the reflation is still working . I may be wrong and we may not deflate in the ul

42. simon68 said...

See this for another explanation for fluctuation in M3:

http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_08/saville032310.html

44. techieman said...

HPW do yourself a favour and watch the youtube video that quiet guy posted @ 17. You might even learn something! Perish the thought eh?

46. hpwatcher said...

HPW do yourself a favour and watch the youtube video that quiet guy posted @ 17. You might even learn something! Perish the thought eh?

I wish you would not only do yourself a favour - but everyone these boards - by not posting long winded gibberish that no-one will ever read. I haven't read your long post above - nor do I intend to - you must lead a completely empty life to spend that amount of time to write something that long....

Moreover my inflation argument still holds water. Deflation may have been an issue in the 30's but this is 2010. It simply isn't going to happen in any major way.

48. smugdog said...

Simon69, you can referee, although on second thoughts,

nobody listens to you at the best of times anyway, S2r1 are you available?

50. techieman said...

HPW - sadly if you dont open your eyes and ears to stuff you only have yourself to blame when u get f*cked as you surely will.

Still thats your lookout. I have no problem with anyone on here actually even you. And if you r talking about post 2 then that's a direct quote if 38 then yes you have read my "gibberish" and clearly have no comeback. You cant even do your normal italicise a segment and make a stupid comment on that. See you have nowhere to go but to try to taunt me.

Smugy tut tut provocative! :-). Actually i would waste my time - i doubt it would take more than a couple of combinations! Still thats the "pit animal" in me. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=avNxsCWC1cvM. Apparently according to HPW i have an empty life anyway (and of course he must be right!) - so plenty of time to beat the sh1t out of him!! :-).

As for the chill pill i dont really care what your view is, its not going to effect me either way. I just think of people that read this and might actually believe what you right [sic] is an absolute fact, rather than opinion. The problem with you is you are set in your ideas and will ignore everything that doesnt tally with those. Now thats not convivial for anyone. As i have said before you must be an absolute joy to live with.

As quiet guy says the deflation argument is compelling (at least in the US)..... I dont know how much the M3 must deflate before you take your fingers out of your ears and stop singing "la li la li la". I just feel its my responsibility to show the other side of the flawed (in the US) inflationary argument.

Now if you want to post a UK based analysis as i said currently you may have a point.

I have never seen you post anything that gives any one any predictions.

I must say its clear you are hetrosexual though you are so up your own ar5e there is no room for anyone else!

smuggy i hope that has given you some entertainment :-). Its funny isnt it really - both HPW (i assume) and i think that HPs will fall (although as i said i actually predicted a bounce around 2008 - as you know smuggy), so you would think we would gang up on you. But of course you can legislate for peoples other opinion, or what w8nkers they are in expressing them.

But you are rtight on one thing - i wont waste my time on this again. The strange thing is i first did it to show you the other side of the argument. You have never said ahh i see that argument but dont agree, that would be fair. You just say "its a red herring" i would bet in an effeminate accent, and thats it - no rationale no reason. Not even applying "O " level Economics.

Recapture - Financial Grinning.

:-) Goodnight!

52. hpwatcher said...

But you are rtight on one thing - i wont waste my time on this again. The strange thing is i first did it to show you the other side of the argument. You have never said ahh i see that argument but dont agree, that would be fair. You just say "its a red herring" i would bet in an effeminate accent, and thats it - no rationale no reason. Not even applying "O " level Economics.

techieman, are you having a nervous breakdown of some kind? I am seriously becoming very concerned about your mental health.

These boards are intended to be a bit of entertainment, fun, timepass etc. I believe in widespread inflation, and see it in a daily basis, there *may* be a degree of deflation, but it really isn't possible in a fiat system - only in the 1930 when money was tied to a commodity - moreover, it was only going to be limited due to the massive degree of credit expansion, not to mention QE, most of which is at zero velocity.....but it will hit the streets sooner or later.

So it's inflation all the way I'm afraid, both for the UK and then the US.

54. hpwatcher said...

Thanks for your concern! BTW just pocketed another £42k.

Don't forget to pay CGT on that.

10% of my shorts based on the deflationary aspects that the US S&Ps are discounting

I would not use the word 'deflation', it's simply been overvalued for years.

56. techieman said...

"sorry HPW - no CGT" - but i do alot for charity..... but i dont like to talk about it! :-).