Tuesday, Feb 02, 2010
Greece, Portugal... the dominos are falling
Market Oracle: The Collapse of Sovereign Government Bonds The Next Financial Crisis Contagion
First Greece, now Portugal. Next Spain, Japan, UK and US bonds will take a plunge
Posted by sold 2 rent 1 @ 11:40 AM (2576 views) Add Comment
70 Comments
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1. sold 2 rent 1 said...
Here is an update of what the models of Armstrong and Calleman are indicating.
For some time now the models have been predicting a gold/silver peak in March 2010.
The breakout over $1,000 last September resonated with the breakout of gold from $35 back in the early 1970s. We are now resonating with early 1977 and the low in gold last week was the resonance of gold in August 1976 when it halved its value to $103.
In summary, the period September 2009 – March 2010 maps to 1970-1980 and the 2 data points of $1226 on 3 Dec 2009 (maps to $197 in Dec 1974) and $1075 on 28 Jan 2010 (maps to $103 in August 1976) now gives me a confirmed formula for calculating the next 2 months of gold’s parabolic rise
The formula is:-
(((x/35) – 1) * 50) + 1000
gold price
1970s - 2000s
$44 ---- $1,013
$60 ---- $1,036
$70 ---- $1,050
$80 ---- $1,064
$89 ---- $1,077
$90 ---- $1,079
$103 --- $1,097
$127 --- $1,131
$129 --- $1,134
$180 --- $1,207
$197 --- $1,231
$800 --- $2,093
$850 --- $2,164
$875 --- $2,200
As you can see, we now have a target of $2,200 by the end of March 2010
As for silver, I still have a target for $200, but this requires the colloidal silver revolution to take off.
As for the broad stock market, Calleman’s model can help here too.
The period of March 2009 to October 2010 is resonating with the period 1960-1990, where the DJIA went from around 600, got held a resistance at 1,000 between 1966 and 1982, then broke out to 2,800 by 1990.
If this resonance holds then we should see the DJIA held in the range around 10,000 until May and then breakout to form the next bubble over the summer. Not sure what sector this bubble will take but it could be alternative energy/carbon trading.
If this bubble forms over the summer then it is game on for an October 2010 crash to surpass both the 1929 and 1987 crashes, as power shifts from West to East.
2. sold 2 rent 1 said...
Oh and house prices.
The HPC of 2008 seems to resonate with the crash that ended in 1956-57 when house prices fell 50% in relation to real incomes.
Q1 2009 may well turn out to be the bottom of the HP index, and we are now seeing the start of a huge growth period that we saw between 1957 and 2007.
Don't underestimate a government's ability to destroy its currency.
3. inbreda said...
how can you predict the rise of house prices due to the destruction of the currency without a similar lift in gold price?
I can't beleive I have just asked str1 a question.
4. rumble said...
"as power shifts from West to East"
including wealthy folks' cash, made in the west, heading for the east, as the west clamps down like a bunch of communists, and the east thrives in an increasingly open market. Like a drunk wobbling from side to side, hopefully to eventually settle in stability somewhere in the middle.
5. sold 2 rent 1 said...
inbreda,
how can you predict the rise of house prices due to the destruction of the currency without a similar lift in gold price?
I am predicting both house prices and gold to rise. Gold to hit $2,200 by the end of March.
Anyone holding cash and waiting to buy will be zapped.
BTW Once gold and silver peak, my wife and I will be buying this spring/summer.
It is quite clear that we are heading into Chris Martenson's "End of Money"
http://www.chrismartenson.com/martensonreport/end-money
6. hpwatcher said...
Here is an update of what the models of Armstrong and Calleman are indicating.
Are you sure that Armstrong is indicating that? The latest Armstrong report states that Gold will peak around 2015....
Q1 2009 may well turn out to be the bottom of the HP index, and we are now seeing the start of a huge growth period that we saw between 1957 and 2007.
I think you have got this one completely wrong; but lets see what happens.
7. sold 2 rent 1 said...
hpwatcher,
"The latest Armstrong report states that Gold will peak around 2015...."
You are correct with this statement.
But I am following my own analysis of the PI cycle, and not just what Armstrong publishes from his prison cell. I still use his ideas as he is a great analyst.
Reality is made up of dozens, maybe hundreds of models, each with varying levels of influence that ebb and flow in importance over time.
By far the most powerful of all these models are Armstrong and Calleman's.
8. techieman said...
Welcome back s2r1!!
9. bellwether said...
S2r1 glad to see you are as madly inaccurate as always
Anyway currencies are of course a temporary phenomenon, this is hardly news. Most things are flawed and have a finite life so why should curency be any different. When a currency dies it will always be replaced by another because money is an incredible invention without which we wouldn't have the world we live in. I posted this quote on another thread. I think you will like it.
“A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy…”
Alexander Fraser Tytler, Scottish lawyer and writer, 1770
10. p. doff said...
I can see this thread heading for 60+ !!!
11. quiet guy said...
I tend to agree with bellwether (inaccurate). Buying property around April time is rather bold.
I suppose if you have enough cash you could view splitting your money between property and precious metals as a hedging strategy but wach out for future property taxes!
12. techieman said...
S2R1 : "Q1 2009 may well turn out to be the bottom of the HP index, and we are now seeing the start of a huge growth period that we saw between 1957 and 2007."
Forgive me but i dont know ( i cant remember) if you were forecasting that as a low or as a move up before now. If not it strikes me you have needed quite a bit of confirmation to actually make that prediction. Stable doors and horses spring to mind.
Really im not being clever or rude, just seeking some enlightenment, as to when you have (as i assume smugdog would put it) "seen the light" ?
13. sold 2 rent 1 said...
bellwether,
I like the quote.
But this statement "When a currency dies it will always be replaced by another" may not be true when all of the world's currencys go "pop" together.
And as for "glad to see you are as madly inaccurate as always"
Let's see what happens between now and the end of March
14. theboltonfury said...
It's drawn me back in.
S2R1, you have been rehashing the same old for 3 years now, just that each time, you alter your date.
You will be right one day.
15. p. doff said...
9. bellwether said...''S2r1 glad to see you are as madly inaccurate as always''
Well at least he's revised it down a bit from his November 4th target of $2500 :-
2. sold 2 rent 1 said...''The parabolic stage of this gold bull has started. I have a target of $2500+ by March/April 2010.
December should bring a stocks crash once inflation becomes visible. At least a 20% drop is on the cards but maybe 80% for a grand super-cycle correction.''
16. sold 2 rent 1 said...
techieman & quiet guy,
I haven't done any HP analysis for a while now (except for this morning). That is because the house purchase that has been planned for a year now is about cashing in on a PM peak and not about HP directions.
Think about it. If gold doubles (or silver goes up ten-fold), who cares if house prices go down another 10% before the next wave of money printing pushes them up again.
techie, I think originally I had seen HPs crashing right through to 2010, but now I realise that the bubble will be kept going right up until the "event horizon". The event horizon is the point at which all stock markets, governments, and currencies collapse and there is a mad dash to buy anything physical before all money is worthless.
17. freemanphil said...
S2R1, if we see a repeat of 1980, and, if gold does go to $2200 by March then it will be overbought, simply because of the masses of long positions to be covered. So, if you follow Calleman and think things happen 20x faster, then, the cup and handle correction that we are just now completing would, instead of taking 16yrs to complete, would take 0.8yrs, to complete, meaning that gold would correct down during the summer (corresponding with a stock market boom?) - Those profits have to go somewhere, but, transferring back to gold in October, when gold will get back to being $2200 and then go on to reach its true value.
Now, I'm not saying I agree with the above, but, I'm just using Calleman's logic here and having fun with it. I doubt $2200 by end of March, but, the gold charts are positively exponential and there is much pent up mis-allocation of wealth to be re-allocated, most likely by swift corrections.
18. freemanphil said...
This is the pattern I was referring to.
19. sold 2 rent 1 said...
Bolton,
"S2R1, you have been rehashing the same old for 3 years now, just that each time, you alter your date."
I have been saying spring 2010 for 18 months at least
http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/newsblog/2008/09/blog-liquidity-in-gold-coins-drying-up-17457.php
Broken any strings recently?
20. techieman said...
Thanks s2r1!
As for the cup and handle..... im not sure thats a classic enough example Freemanphil, and unless it is is not a reliable pattern IMO (although thats not to say that the yellow stuff will or wont rise - perhaps in non $ denominations), its just to say i personally wouldnt bother trading it meself. But good luck, each to their own.
In any case werent you (Freemanphil) saying you fancied it off to about $1k?
21. shipbuilder said...
S2R1 - Good to hear from you again, hope you are keeping well. At least you keep the same name when you return.
22. sold 2 rent 1 said...
freemanphil,
Nice analysis with a slight error.
The cup and handle pattern took 26 years (not 16 years) so gold won't get back above $2,200 until July 2011.
But making money in the final gold bubble in autumn 2011 probably won't be that wise, with the end-of-money n' all that goes with it.
23. sold 2 rent 1 said...
As I said earlier the Calleman and Armstrong models are very powerful.
Every now and again the 2 models actually line up with each other.
We have such an event coming up on 4 March 2010.
Early October 1978 maps to 4 March 2010.
These 2 dates are 31.4 years apart (PI * 10)
Martin Armstrong talks about this in his article about the Iranian Revolution
http://www.martinarmstrong.org/files/The-Counter-Revolution-of-Iran.pdf
This will be a very destructive time:-
Iran: September 16, 1978, Tabas earthquake, Iran Kills 26,000
Iran: Between August and December 1978 strikes and demonstrations paralyzed the country
Cambodia: Killing fields - The most horrific slaughter took place during the second half of 1978. At least 250,000 people were killed in the worst single massacre of the Khmer Rouge period
The resonance on the Calleman model is not only with October 1978 but with the Black Death (1347-1351) and collapse of the Lombard banking system in 1348, which plunged Europe into chaos.
24. alan_540 said...
@5 s2r... Great that you may have the money to buy a place in spring/summer, but don't you think that prices will still be overvalued then? Better to wait till spring/summer 2011?
25. freemanphil said...
"But making money in the final gold bubble in autumn 2011 probably won't be that wise, with the end-of-money n' all that goes with it."
I see an end to fiat money, but, sound money has nothing to do with the power of one over another, it is about personal power and personal liberty, and, in order to extinguish the monetary role of gold, you would have to jettison it all towards the sun and destroy it. Gold's role is a barter role, and, so long as humans exist, we will have barter exchanges, regardless of what government tries to do. So, no, gold will become a replacement for fiat money, replacing the new world order with something resembling reality. The end of money in the terms you suggest, would be the end of humanity, where individuals exchange without the basis of need or means to pay. Since resources are limited and since people have needs and wants, some form of money will exist so long as humans exist.
Now, some things can become so abundant that there is no need for money to purchase them. For example, sea-water, sunshine, energy if we could get free energy devices. But all those things that are limited will have a value placed upon them and a cost for the purchaser. Whether it is valued in eggs, silver, gold, or shells isn't the issue, the question is, do we transact in a fiat money, the value of which can be stolen by corporations and government via inflation, or do we transact in something we the people control. To be or not to be, that is the question. With fiat money or the absence of money, the self doesn't exist, with sound money it does. So, to be, with sound money, ot not to be with fiat money or the absence of money.
Money is important to morality, because it is one person's claim on the labour of another's, based on whether that person has been able to be productive and prudent in the past. Money is only immoral when its basis is theft. We put criminals to prison still for stealing, so, that issue is dealt with, but, with fiat money, theft is institutionalized. This is what has to end.
26. nickb said...
Is this for real? What about lay lines, the Bible codes and the phases of the moon? Why don't these feature in the analysis?
27. sold 2 rent 1 said...
alan_540,
All the old rules about what governs house prices should be thrown away.
This is the end-game for “The West” playing out
The governments of the world CANNOT and WILL NOT let this worldwide debt bubble collapse.
As Austrian Economics puts it "You cannot prevent the collapse of a credit-led bubble; all you can do is delay the day of the collapse by creating more credit"
This housing bubble can and probably will go much higher.
28. freemanphil said...
A gyrating top starts wobbling violently before it falls over. So, Maybe prices will soar. If they do, we have hyperinflation. Is that why they are putting body scanners on the airports? Do they expect people to flee England once things collapse? Will our Marxist leaders trap us inside?
29. general congreve said...
Real or de facto, a new gold standard will be coming our way once this debt crisis (that's it's real name) has played out. We live in modern world, we cannot do without money and we cannot do without the convenience of electronic money either. However, we will need to back this money with gold.
How things will end I don't know, but the way I see it, the PTB, both banks and governments, are robbing people all over the world blind through printing. Stealing from the masses to give to themselves. It's a nice shell game for them and it'll probably take a degree of global civil unrest and revolution before we get the change we need.
Now, that'll be change I can believe in, cos I've got a fat wad riding on gold going mental ;)
30. sold 2 rent 1 said...
freemanphil,
It is difficult to explain but there are massive parallels between Stephen Hawkins’s singularity (black hole), the theoretical technological singularity (machines taking over humans), and the consciousness singularity.
As we move from the event horizon to the centre of the black hole (singularity) Einstein’s theories break down as we have infinite gravity and infinite density at the core. In short Einstein’s theories get replaced by some other theories we have yet to discover.
The “end-of-money” marks the event horizon of the consciousness singularity. The journey to the singularity will involve all models such as Armstrong’s and Calleman’s breaking down and being replaced by something else.
What actually happens in this period is probably some kind of transcendence to a new level. Religious people would classify this period as the Apocalypse.
31. freemanphil said...
Sold 2 Rent
What I see occuring, is that repressed technology will be set free if the establishment's power wanes. Technology can make things abundant, therefore, I do see in the future that money will not be needed for some things, for example, water, energy, etc. whilst other things will become so cheap that it will be like spending pennies. But, I also see that real things will retain value, and that they would become emphasized in our economy, e.g. artisan food, hand made ceramics, well made homes, etc, etc. If the power of the establishment wanes, then things with value will regain their value, whilst those things that are abundant will loose their artificial scarcity. We have seen this occur when it comes to information transfer, which is now free, but note, even though information is now free, information technology has a value still and probably always will, but its value is acceptable for the vast majority who can get online now.
So, I think you see things a bit too simplistic, not understanding that shifts like this will produce multiple outcomes. A technological singularity combined with establishment power will bring forward the dystopia of man being replaced by machine. A technological singularity combined with a reinstatement of personal liberty will bring about human emancipation combined with balance between humans and machines. It is not the free market that gives us naked body scanners, it is not the free market that provides CCTV, it is raw government/corporate power over the people. It is institutionalized theft, funding tyranical power.
You yourself predict the collapse of power, but you are still living in the power paradigm, so you still extrapolate our current tyrannical condition and overlay it onto trends you see in technology, but the internet revolution (free information) has altered the course of mankind, sending us in a whole new direction, and, whilst we have most certainly gone through the internet revolution, the internet hasn't yet produced the next revolution, but we see it beginning to gain speed, with people like Debra Medina running for Texas governor, and with grass roots organizations everywhere challenging the status quo, with volunteer time and very small investment, people like me can destroy trillions of pounds worth of government propaganda in the infowar.
32. rumble said...
Nickb, ask s2 about the ninth dimension, and space species.
33. mountain goat said...
S2R1 I have always enjoyed your views but seem to disagree more than usual now.
Gold bugs really need to study and understand what happened to gold in the panic of 2008. Next time it won't be different. Gold is money but it can only buy one thing today, paper money. Gold may revert to being money one day, but now it isn't. So you need to be very careful in this situation.
The governments of the world CANNOT and WILL NOT let this worldwide debt bubble collapse.
As Austrian Economics puts it "You cannot prevent the collapse of a credit-led bubble; all you can do is delay the day of the collapse by creating more credit"
Governments are powerless to stop the debt bubble collapse. This is what the Austrian Economist is trying to say, not as you seem to think, the bubble will magically be kept inflated.
Governments are trying to slow down the collapse because they want to prevent a bust - "no more boom and bust". Governments are not good at achieving anything but you imagine them with great powers! They failed to control the boom on the way up (goldilocks inflation, modern financial systems more stable and such miscalculations) and they will fail on the bust going down.
I take it your explanation for their failure to control the boom is conspiratorial in nature? Why not consider a simpler reason like they are unable to control economies? When they try they fail like communist governments. Governments try take credit for the healthy economy we have had for a few decades. IMO it was healthy despite their meddling not thanks to them.
Ironically the subject of this article you have posted here (bond prices falling) is showing that the market is still in control not governments.
Bubbles have been around for centuries. This time it wont be different, as your Austrian Economics quote rightly points out.
We are getting to the end of the rope for government stimulus, yet all through the past year debt was being paid back or defaulted.
All I see is failure of government to fight this trend of deleveraging.
"This housing bubble can and probably will go much higher."
HPC over in the blink of an eye then, the trolls will be pleased!
34. freemanphil said...
MG, what you miss, is that this boom and bust were planned, to take us into Brown's New World Order where recievership will be used as a reason to put previously sovereign nations under IMF one world government, run for and by the corporations, where public policy will focus on austerity and payments to the bankers, as it does now in the third world. These people know that it is genocidal, but they don't care, because under social darwinism, this is selection of the fittest. Causing destruction is a religion to these people.
35. quiet guy said...
@nickb
"Is this for real?"
You'd better believe it. Unless SR21 is having one of the longest, most elaborate jokes ever, he holds and promotes a very unconventional view of the world. Keep it polite and don't engage if it upsets you; S2R1 is indefatigable.
36. mountain goat said...
Freemanphil - this is what I meant by - I take it your explanation for their failure to control the boom is conspiratorial in nature? Why not consider a simpler reason like they are unable to control economies? When they try they fail like communist governments. Governments try take credit for the healthy economy we have had for a few decades. IMO it was healthy despite their meddling not thanks to them.
There may be megalomaniacs who are trying to achieve what you describe. But that is a dark world-view I know nothing about. To me the economy is about my labour and how I exchange this for things of value. It is about you and me, not governments and NWO elitists. It is about you and me, and governments do well if they realise they don't control us.
37. sold 2 rent 1 said...
MG,
The point I was making is the global debt bubble as a whole will keep inflating until the FINAL collapse (or event horizon).
There seems to be a lot of anger and negativity on here now house prices are rising again.
Watch the film Kymatica and think about what is really driving the problems in the world - YOUR negativity
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/kymatica/
KYMATICA
"Evolution is a term to define only one organism and that’s the self. The self is the universe, the self is the alpha and omega, god, and infinity, and that’s the only thing that evolves because we are all part of the self. Nothing goes through an evolutionary process alone or without direct benefit to the whole. So when you begin to think that there’s this controlling elite, this controlling hand behind the curtains leading the planet to destruction…
When you think the end is near, the apocalypse, Armageddon, and when you think we as a species are doomed, it is not they, it is you that brought this about, and for a very good reason. You are evolving. Stop blaming everybody and everything else. Quit panicking about global tyranny and natural disaster and pay attention, because the world is telling you something; it’s tell you exactly what is wrong with you and how to fix it."
38. rumble said...
Freeman, "this boom and bust were planned"
An Austrian who thinks government is capable?
39. freemanphil said...
" To me the economy is about my labour and how I exchange this for things of value "
You forget about how inflation and taxation reduce the value of your capital and your exchanges, thus reducing your ability to interact with other people. For example, people would have a lower threshold for what they would do for others when it was in exchange for silver or gold. People won't work so hard for paper because it doesn't hold so much value, and most people can't be bothered to protect the value of their paper via obsession with financial markets. This is why things don't work anymore, and why people, can't be bothered to work. If I cleaned your car for a shilling of silver that was guaranteed to grow in purchasing power as much as the growth of GDP, then I'd be more inclined to do it. If I clean your car for a piece of paper that looses its purchasing power, then I'd rather not bother doing that work.
" An Austrian who thinks government is capable? "
Government knows that its interventions cause crashes. They are incapable of predicting them because they use all our money to pay for think tanks, with unlimited resources. They are not capable of avoiding crashes, but capable of planning ahead to replace their existing system with another, that they still control. Each step and collapse used to justify further concentration of power, until the power structure collapses, as with Russia, but, when Russia collapsed they even used that to their objective, because the communists infiltrated our society, mainly under the green/carbon revolution, and, we find that our society is now going the way of the Soviet Union.
Government aren't capable of providing for people, but they are very successful in stealing from the people and centralizing power, e.g. creating tyranny. They specialize in maintaining that system and have many tools to achieve it, including bad education and a rubbish mainstream media, successful so much in destruction of intellect that we can be bumrushed in minute with what would have fomented violent revolution from our forebears. All of their success comes from harnessing the destruction they cause.
40. techieman said...
S2R1 - very entertaining, as usual. Its between f*ck up and an orchestrated bust, hmmmm.
Firstly you freemanphil go too far simply because you are giving Brown far too much credit, secondly if what you say is true then Brown would be in no danger in this next election..... or when you say Brown do you mean Cameron and / or even Nicky boy blunder, will just be other puppets perpetuating the NWO??? Or , being facetious, perhaps they are just all Brown clones???
But who knows you may be right.... but until i see the proof i am sticking with young Mr Goat,i.e. verdict - F*ck up.
As for "There seems to be a lot of anger and negativity on here now house prices are rising again." I dont think thats right... frustration is about as far as i'd go. Personally im pretty relaxed.
41. p. doff said...
Good grief, they're breeding!
42. techieman said...
Blimey phil... everyone is so forgetful tonight :-). Perhaps though they just have a different view?
43. stillthinking said...
How can Armstrong provide meaningful advice from his cell without his personally programmed voice recognition financial program that he developed in the 70s, an astonishing feat for the hardware available at the time, which was confiscated by the US government?
44. Nobody777 said...
Dear sold one I have taken some profits today in pms they have served me very well but be carefull I can see you are smart, read fdralloveragain.blogspot.com the opposite of you its a very good read Buy low sell high simple well pms are very very high compared to other money assets gold to oil is 16 to 1 double its average gold isnt cheap next to money eg real assets.
I like you sold one and I will be very rich if your forecast comes off I have a very large long in silver etc but thats a 10 year or so investment house prices are substancially overvalued its the rigged low interest rates propping up this shell game real inflation adjusted houseprices WILL drop 50% over a short or long period so a 0ish rate on cash the hated US buck gives a 100% return tax free.
I am very well loaded in pms but taken a chunk off today for cash timing the top isnt easy and the current reserve currency is king in deflation unless a total collapse of the dollar that will be everything fcuked up lets hope that never happens in a quick snap.
My past never forget the exits a bit of cash just incase high interest rates stoke deflation/depression silver and platinun for boom times and gold as an all hell breaks loose insurance thats me.
I am loaded with gold but I hope it drops sounds silly 2000 or so gold in march isnt good and I dont wish it but its possible hence my insurance good luck
45. markj69 str05 said...
@37...'think about what is really driving the problems in the world - YOUR negativity'
Nothing to do with huge escallating debt then? Affordability? Wealth creation for the 'masters of the universe'?
46. freemanphil said...
S2R1 - very entertaining, as usual. Its between f*ck up and an orchestrated bust, hmmmm.
- Yes, it is a total f*ck up, that will nonetheless have been predicted by think tanks who will have been tasked at coming up with how to engineer the collapse into more centralization of power, or at least, a holding onto of power. Like, government knew the banks would collapse, and they held off the moment until they had the bailouts in position. Could this be why the crash took so long to occur?
Firstly you freemanphil go too far simply because you are giving Brown far too much credit, secondly if what you say is true then Brown would be in no danger in this next election.....
- Mate, all parties are bought and paid for by the corporations. Blair went to work for bankers when he finished. Major went to work for Carlisle Group. It doesn't matter for these people which party is in power, because the left and right both have ways to centralize power and take away our freedom and wealth. The left takes a step forward, then the right. It is a false left-right paradigm to divide us so we can be ruled. All the while, Dorothy just has to lift the curtain to see a little man pulling the strings.
Maier Amschel Rothschild said:
"Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation and I care not who writes its laws"
If you want to discover more about the left-right paradigm, you should watch Fall of the Republic.
47. rumble said...
Freeman, at a time when developing countries are making strides toward superpower status, the west is going to risk collapse chaos in the hope of rebuilding competitive nations in a hurry?
48. techieman said...
Even more entertaining is ........ Its Team America!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chp2u2ln8_E
49. freemanphil said...
"developing countries are making strides toward superpower status"
The United Nations have said, time and again, that China is the model country for their vision of the future. America propped up China by letting them buy its treasury bills. This let American's consume during their de-industrialization, whilst a lower Remnimbi meant that no middle class would develop in China to challenge the establishment there. Remember that USSR would have collapsed years before had it not been for low cost grain exports to Russia to keep it fed. Do you think Communism rises up by chance? That luck would have it that tyranny produces wealth? No, China was only able to rise because America sacrificed its wealth to bring up the socialism that the bankers so dearly want. Why do they like socialism? Because it centralizes wealth, which can then be syphoned off to the bankers via interest payments and IMF austerity measures to ensure that socialism is replaced with servitude to the banks. Socialism is always a transitionary phase towards slavery to bankers. This is what the third world live through every day, and, most of the third world under control, the last few "rogue nations" being pummeled with depleted uranium and bombs, we are next. So welcome to your New World Order where the Orwellian boot stamps on the human face forever.
50. shipbuilder said...
freemanphil - wasn't George Orwell a socialist?
51. rumble said...
Freeman, you changed your name from "Insanity" ? (Question, not joke).
"no middle class would develop in China"
That's exactly what has developed.
"China was only able to rise because America sacrificed its wealth"
It went capitalist when Mao died, with a handy population size.
"socialism? Because it centralizes wealth"
I thought power first, to control for wealth.
"Socialism is always a transitionary phase towards slavery to bankers"
Transitionary? Haven't we just witnessed that it is slavery to the bankers?
"This is what the third world live through every day"
I think you overestimate the way things "work" in the third world - how many debit cards in Mozambique?
52. freemanphil said...
George Orwell thought he was fighting the Russians, he then discovered that both sides were run by the same people and were following an agenda of enslavement, so he ducked out and wrote 1984 and other things. Animal Farm is very much a book that warns against socialism.
"I think you overestimate the way things "work" in the third world - how many debit cards in Mozambique?"
- I am talking about government getting into debt to fund government projects only to go into IMF receivership. The IMF then enforces austerity to maintain payments to the bankers.
John Perkins explains how, when he worked for the IMF, his job was to entice nations into default to engineer servitude to the bankers, and it is achieved via big government, funded via tax and inflation. It has nothing to do with credit cards over there. Why? Because individuals with credit cards can declare bankruptcy, the IMF can't come and say, sell your children, you write off the debts. Countries don't operate like that now, under world government. They used to default, now, they go into poverty.
53. freemanphil said...
Oops, he didn't work for the IMF.
54. titaniccaptain said...
I find it amazing that the one man in the 20th century who predicted the financial crisis (Down to the date..... youtube vids to back that claim up) back in the 1970s and 80s never gets a mention on HPC......
Was he a loony? dunno but he was accurate.
Might even mention his name on here one day.
55. rumble said...
Tc! You can't do that!
56. techieman said...
very intriguing TC. Will we be kicking ourselves when/if you divulge?
57. letthemfall said...
Animal Farm is a satire on totalitarianism. Nothing to do with socialism as I understand it.
58. titaniccaptain said...
lol techie.......I don't think you will be kicking yourself....but you may be surprised at this relatively unknown chap.......yes he comes from a religious background but if you dig into his predictions they are spot on.
Make of that what you will.....
I will post it on the most apt thread when it arises.
Hope all is well.
59. p. doff said...
Wasn't far off 60. Do I get a gold star?
60. techieman said...
you do now!
TC - i am assuming you dont mean Lindsey Williams..... or do you?
61. sold 2 rent 1 said...
Looks like p. doff was right about this thread hitting 60+... nearly there
As for TC’s mystery religious man with his predictions ...... Pray tell dear TC
Been looking into some prophecies myself...
Malachy's Prophecies - The Last 10 Popes
http://www.bibleprobe.com/last10popes.htm
Not sure if the current pope is going to make it through to the summer.
We have some big Pope resonances coming up.
Firstly the mysterious death of Pope John Paul 1 on September 28, 1978
http://www.prose-n-poetry.com/display_work/10583/
Which maps to the 3 March 2010
And Pope John Paul II assassination attempt on 13 May 1981 – this maps to 20 April 2010.
Malachy's Prophecy, which is 850 years old, basically says the next Pope will be the last
62. titaniccaptain said...
@Techie........nope lol.......
63. titaniccaptain said...
Techie you still on this thread?
64. techieman said...
TC - just came back.... do i have 20 guesses???
Actually i must admit to S2R1 i had a look at the Malachy's Prophecy - only so i could have a bet on the last one (yes i know a heathen!.....) but it was just a bit in the nostradamus vein - i.e. you could interperate it a few ways - so saved the cash. But as S2r1 says the next pope will be the last.
65. titaniccaptain said...
@Techie......
The man in question's name is Barry Smith.........he was an evangelist and died a few years ago.......many say he was nuts but he was incredibly accurate on some stuff.
Its no secret that I am a Christian so I am bound to find his stuff more palatable than non-Christians.
He also upset a lot of Welsh people when he came here and said that Wales was the only country to have the Devil on their flag......
66. techieman said...
Thanks TC!! Will take a look.
67. techieman said...
...or should that last post be number 666?
68. freemanphil said...
letthemfall, socialism is a form of totalitarianism.
Animal Farm was very much about socialism/communism, 1984 came after Orwell's realization that the left and right are wings of the same bird of prey.
69. letthemfall said...
Oh well, freeman, I don't equate socialism and communism, though the terms are used very broadly.
(You are a reincarnation of p4c aren't you?)
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