Wednesday, Dec 17, 2008
The end of Fiat Money
Market Oracle: U.S. Federal Reserve Sets Stage for Weimar Style Hyper-inflation
The Federal Reserve has bluntly refused a request by a major US financial news service to disclose the recipients of more than $2 trillion of emergency loans from US taxpayers and to reveal the assets the central bank is accepting as collateral. Their lawyers resorted to the bizarre argument that they did so to protect ‘trade secrets.' Is the secret that the US financial system is de facto bankrupt? The latest Fed move is further indication of the degree of panic and lack of clear strategy within the highest ranks of the US financial institutions. Unprecedented Federal Reserve expansion of the Monetary Base in recent weeks sets the stage for a future Weimar-style hyperinflation perhaps before 2010
Posted by sold 2 rent 1 @ 12:12 PM (1636 views) Add Comment
65 Comments
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1. gardeniadotnet said...
"The world faces the greatest financial and economic challenges in history in coming months. The incoming Obama Administration faces a choice of literally nationalizing the credit system to insure a flow of credit to the real economy over the next 5 to 10 years, or face an economic Armageddon that will make the 1930's appear a mild recession by comparison."
2. crunchy said...
1. gardeniadotnet
If your first example were to come to light. Don't you think that would have come into force already? They are further down the slippery road than UK.
Sorry to say but the former is much more likely.
Why do you think Gold is hovering and waiting the explode? Why do you think Oil is down? Do you think that the helping hand that holds the dollar up will finally tire?
I do, and I feel an historical moment will arise from that event. IMHO lol.
3. gardeniadotnet said...
@2 crunchy...
Engdahl presents a non-choice - Obama is hardly going to choose the 'Armageddon' route.
Re: gold, oil (and other commodities, shares etc etc), I see manipulation everywhere, and read articles from vested interests with a very cynical eye ( my other eye's fine).
4. crunchy said...
3. gardeniadotnet
I think you are right wilh the manipulation. That has been rampant throughout the bailout period. I seriously never thought that they had that kind of devilish power.
But you must get out of the Honeymoon Obama period, and fast.
Did you know that Obama was getting 5 times more money from Wall St than McCain. Follow the money! Personally I see little CHANGE from Bush.
Look at the people that now surround Obama. Speaks volumes to me.
'Armageddon' IS CHANGE. Problem, Reaction, Solution. Hey, I may be miles out here, but I don't think so.
5. James said...
Brilliant, isn't it? If something doesn't agree with your theory, you just call it "manipulation". In this way, you can never be wrong.
FYI - 'crunchy' - you won't see much change from Bush yet. Because Obama isn't President yet, for starters.
Love the fact we also have a deflation article on the site today, that s2r1 agrees with apparently, and this hyperinflation one he's posted. Therefore, if inflation goes up or down, he wins! What a clever chap...
6. gardeniadotnet said...
@4 crunchy
Are manipulation and conspiracy the same thing? I don't think so.
7. crunchy said...
5. gardeniadotnet
I am only giving you some facts. Check them out! Trying to patronise will not change those facts.
Look at the stock charts around the time of the bailout. which was forced in with the threat of Marsall law.
Hey, funny how that 700billion now stands at over 8 trillion with no end in sight and congress has no right to ask where this money has been spent.
Go on check it out! and when you have done that we can talk seriously. Conspiracy... You are falling for the oldest trick in the book.
I think you may need a re-test on that other eye. With respect.
8. flintster1994 said...
Only for s2r1,
Have you noticed today that dark energy is one of the leading stories on the BBC's science pages. Thought you may like to know if you didn't already.
9. gardeniadotnet said...
@6 crunchy
I'm not trying to patronise, nor am I qualified to do so - my question is a valid one.
I've read more conspiracy theories than you can shake a stick at (though why anyone would want to do that, I don't know), but I cannot believe that this crisis has happened by design.
My view is that there are many hands at work desperately trying to preserve the old economic and financial order that has served them so well for so long.
10. flintster1994 said...
G,
I think that that is a conspiracy on its own.
11. gardeniadotnet said...
9. flintster1994
When Dorothy and her posse discover the Wizard of Oz, in desperation he exclaims "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"
The 'conspiracy' is being watched with bemusement by a global audience.
The game is up.
12. crunchy said...
8. gardeniadotnet
My view is that there are many hands at work desperately trying to preserve the old economic and financial order that has served them so well for so long.
crunchy: Well, gardeniadotnet If you don't get it after that statement, I guess you will have to wait.
Please cut and paste my views and post back to me with those say in 6months time when I hope it will start to become crystal clear to you.
I am big enough to be wrong, but I doubt it.
Seriously I would love to be wrong.
The facts do not stack up to that.
Did you book that re-test. Only joking!
13. layers said...
@4 Crunchy - re: Obama, my views exactly, the people who are supporting him are all CFR / Trilateral's and Bilderbergers, so just like Bush. Nothing will change, period, except of course if the plan IS to crash the economy totally and there's plenty of circumstantial evidence to state that THAT is their plan.
Gardennetting (very funny Malct) - you may have read loads of conspiracy stuff, but that's like me saying I've read loads of science books and just can't believe that Quantum Physics has any validity. Either you're reading the wrong / propaganda material, or you haven't been thinking critically enough to really understand what it is you're reading. I'm not trying to be patronising, but there's an 'end of days' scenario that certain groups WANT to play out, and they're doing their best to see that this comes to pass. Check out Dominionism for starters.
14. gardeniadotnet said...
@12 layers said... you haven't been thinking critically enough to really understand what it is you're reading
Or maybe the writers, yourself included, haven't presented their case convincingly enough.
15. sold 2 rent 1 said...
flintster1994,
"Have you noticed today that dark energy is one of the leading stories on the BBC's science pages. Thought you may like to know if you didn't already"
Cheers for the post.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7787461.stm
"Putting all of this data together gives us the strongest evidence yet that dark energy is the cosmological constant, or in other words, that 'nothing weighs something'," said Alexey Vikhlinin, who led the research from the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory in Cambridge, US.
'nothing weighs something' - could this explain free energy systems?????
March/April 2009 could see huge breakthroughs in this field.
16. crunchy said...
12. layers
Gold Star too you! Now that patronising lol.
A laugh is still free so why not use it.
17. drewster said...
In my humble opinion, marketoracle.co.uk isn't very good quality. There's far better content in the FT, amongst others. You get what you pays for...
18. paul said...
drewster, marketoracle can be good, but it depends who's writing. The gold bugs who regularly contribute there are mostly not worth the recycled electrons. Nadeem Walayat and a few others offer very rational commentary.
I don't see hyperinflation as a scenario any more - Weimar hyperinflation occured for a very particular, unusal set of circumstances. Debt driven deflation is far more likely and far more common historically.
19. crunchy said...
17. paul
The words Bottom and Bite spring to mind, but I do understand your thinking.
20. crunchy said...
paul, have you factored in what happens to commodities when they become scarce, even in a Depression along with currency devaluation.
Worth some thought.
21. paul said...
crunchy - look what has happened to oil.
Commodity speculation works when it makes sense to most people, up to a point. That's what happened to oil - speculation that oil would go up based on shares going down made sense, but speculation on gold when no-ones got any money doesn't make an awful lot of sense.
22. paul said...
I take your point though - I just don't see a rush of wealth pouring into gold - where's the wealth coming from? (where is it now?)
23. crunchy said...
20. paul
Contary to popular belief OPEC do not control oil prices, They have been kept low to support the Dollar. Made a killing on that move. I knew before hand. Go figure.
Paul gold is scarce. The gold holders are already holding the market has been supressed to support dollar but it cannot do it mach longer. Just watch your Dollar/Forex chart. over the next 6/9 months.
WHEN the dollar dives the big boys will take gold up. Price? I have no idea, but hold on for too long and investors will get seriously burnt.
Commodity speculation will have little to do with the rise it will be demand. Same amount of people chasing fewer goods. ESSENTIALS. Any speculation will not help.
24. crunchy said...
Paul People are forgetting that the massive amounts of money in the system is still owned.
The money has not just vanished. For as long as that power is around we are not swimming in calm waters. Depression or not.
The problem is that the money is not going into any economy that has been turbo charged for the last decade or more.
The fall out of that will be revealed in low production coupled with the same amount of population.
Somethings got to give don't you agree?
25. paul said...
crunchy, silver is scarce. Relative to demand, copper is REALLY scarce.
Circumstances would have to be extreme for people to buy gold in large amounts at "any price". For property, circumstances were extreme in recent years because housing is characterised by relatively price inelastic demand. People still want to own property and that purchase can be deferred but the demand for a place to live is constant (whether owning or renting like me).
Gold is very price elastic - no-one needs gold to survive. So gold is not an essential. In fact, industrial uses for gold - while diverse, are nothing compared to the intrinsic value of silver or copper. Therefore gold prices are chiefly driven by speculation not the rush to safety that most gold bugs think it is.
26. Jeremy said...
Deflation is a very easy sell because oil prices have fallen and right now everyone is going out of business and having closing down sales, so it looks like a major deflationary environment on the surface when you watch the news or fill up your car or buy christmas presents etc.
However, when you look at the money supply numbers they are still stupidly high. UK M4 is scorching hot at 16%+ annualised (Nov08) and the Shadow Stats M3 figure for the states (government stopped publishing this officially) is still in double figures annual growth (even though that growth is down from a month or so ago).
So how does this play out? When everybody has finished going broke there are much fewer goods and services in the economy (we only have a few starbucks to pick from down the high street!), but more money chasing after those goods and services. This always results in consumer price inflation as sure as night follows day.
Government and central bankers would like us to believe that it is our greedy requests for a few extra quid at the end of the month that leads to inflation, but actually it is well understood to be entirely due to their expansion of the monetary base.
So ignoring specific asset classes such as oil (because they are irrelevant) and looking at the holistic figures that are published for money supply, GNP etc. and taking into account that loads of businesses are going up the swanny (putting negative pressure on GNP), can anybody please explain to me how the deflation scenario works?
27. crunchy said...
paul,
OK.
So does that mean you don't agree with me..........The problem is that the money is not going into any economy that has been turbo charged for the last decade or more.
The fall out of that will be revealed in low production coupled with the same amount of population.
Somethings got to give don't you agree?
People losing jobs, cash starvation = lower production. I am asking for a straight Yes or No. It can't be that painful!
28. crunchy said...
Paul, Let's put it another way. Have you stocked up on food? ; )
29. crunchy said...
Just heard on tele....Toyota cutting down on production. Come on Paul.
30. paul said...
Crunchy, work your logic with me.
If we start from the premise that people have less money, and when they do have it they are worried about spending it.
How do we get from there to gold prices going higher and higher?
I just don't see the intervening steps, that's all.
I don't need to stock up on food because food's not scarce. In fact, perishable commodities look remarkably safe right now.
31. crunchy said...
Paul, tap in food shortages into Google.
It's OK you don't have to reply. lol
32. paul said...
Demand is what gives, crunchy, which paves the way for deflation.
33. paul said...
I don't generally tap loaded search queries into google.
Search for "ice circles" and "aliens" if you want to make that connection, but we shouldn't conclude that just because someone thinks that, ice circles are created not by current eddys but aliens ... ? You see my circuitous logic there?
34. gardeniadotnet said...
30. crunchy said... tap in food shortages into Google.
Tried it in Google News and came up with this:
Food Poverty in NYC Soars as Recession Hits Home
...over the past five years, the number of New York City residents having difficulty affording needed food has spiked to nearly 4 million -- doubling from approximately 2 million in 2003 -- representing almost half of all New York City residents (48 percent). Approximately 3.5 million New Yorkers are concerned about needing food assistance (soup kitchens, food pantries and/or food stamps) during the next twelve months, including 2.1 million who have never accessed it before.
MarketWatch
16 Dec. 2008
35. crunchy said...
29. paul said
Crunchy, work your logic with me.
If we start from the premise that people have less money, and when they do have it they are worried about spending it.
How do we get from there to gold prices going higher and higher?
Crunchy's logic and some inside info...Gold prices will rise when the dollar dives and It will. Please just agree with that. Did you get that chart ready?
When it comes to food people will pay almost any price been to the supermarket lately. Do you think people will save, pay off debts when hungry.
They will take that mortgage holiday. Why do you think that the option has been made. Go figure!
Paul your optimism is blinding you. You need to go back to your Doom mind. It has served you well in the past and will again in the future.
If you don't see a bottom don't call one. Hey I could be wrong, but I doubt it.
36. crunchy said...
Paul, should we agree to disagree this thread is getting long?
37. crunchy said...
33. gardeniadotnet
Thanks you. How does your Garden grow. LOL
38. gardeniadotnet said...
crunchy said... How does your Garden grow
exponentially
39. crunchy said...
I feel a Hymn coming on. We plough the feilds and scatter..........
Good for you!
40. crunchy said...
32. paul said...
I don't generally tap loaded search queries into google.
Search for "ice circles" and "aliens" if you want to make that connection, but we shouldn't conclude that just because someone thinks that, ice circles are created not by current eddys but aliens ... ? You see my circuitous logic there?
Ice Circles, Aliens. Paul is it impossible for you to stay on topic. A life in politics awaits you. lol
41. crunchy said...
Paul,
Username: Greased Baloon.
42. nopensionnohouse said...
Christ. Come back p4ac, all is forgiven.
43. crunchy said...
41. nopensionnohouse said...
Christ. Come back p4ac, all is forgiven.
You just can't squash the truth.
Sorry it doesnt taste like candy!
44. crunchy said...
All I know is that I have made nothing but money as this mess has unravelled.
What's that saying Money talks Bulls.....................walks!
I know I am on the right track because of it.
45. flintster1994 said...
Malc, crunchy, crunchy, malc..... is that you?
46. flintster1994 said...
Cruchy,
"All I know is that I have made nothing but money as this mess has unravelled."
and this fills you with pride and confidence in your ability to navigate this new world that you perceive?
47. crunchy said...
46. flintster1994 said...
Cruchy,
and this fills you with pride and confidence in your ability to navigate this new world that you perceive?
Wednesday, December 17, 2008 09:29PM
Hell no. All I have been able to do is protect the money I have worked for and rightly deserve to keep. Well and a little more.
But navigating the new era is a different matter. Pride and confidence is the last thing I feel, quite the contary.
I can now align myself with the money flow to a degree. However I will never be buddies with the people that make the rules and would not want to be given the choice.
All I and we can do is try to survive this turmoil. If I get shaf..d in the end at least I can say I did my best and at least saw it coming.
I really hate what is going on and would just like to be able to relax in the knowledge that the people that we pay to run this country/world have my best interests at heart and just live my life at peace..
Look at what has gone on and see it for exactly what it is. Does it fill you with pride and confidence? It's no accident that the elite get to the top and it's no accident that this is happening..
Money is one thing, but power is a different thing altogether.
"All I know is that I have made nothing but money as this mess has unravelled." The confidence I have got from this is that I know we are being fleeced through bad information.
Bad information I dont need.
48. shipbuilder said...
45. flintster1994 said...
"Malc, crunchy, crunchy, malc..... is that you?"
More likely p4ac, I reckon. The over-enthusiastic hollow boasting sounds like an attempt to distance himself from another identity.
49. gardeniadotnet said...
48. shipbuilder said... More likely p4ac, I reckon.
Spoilsport.
50. crunchy said...
48. shipbuilder
That mind set will not help you. So tell me how you see things from your side? I am all ears.
On a different note I have read some of their posts. The difference with me is that I don't spead myself thinly.
With respect to both of them.
51. gardeniadotnet said...
s2r1?
52. nopensionnohouse said...
Deffo one of the usual suspects anyway...
53. p. doff said...
Shippy
I too sensed a certain familiarity in Crunchy's expressed sentiments. I also thought it too much of a coincidence that another one of 'them' popped up on cue just after the other two were banned.
If we get pages of cut and paste, we'll know it's Malct. If we hear anything about home grown/home canned produce we can plump for P4AC. Hang on a mo', let me just check back....
54. p. doff said...
Thought so, Here it is :-
''DIG FOR VICTORY!! Wholefoods are so much better anyway''.
Wednesday, December 17, 2008 03:00PM
55. crunchy said...
This is a great thread because it has so much information.
I ask all on here to cut and paste this thread and you can show me it in 6months or even on a monthly basis.
This would be far less infantile. Time will tell who is deluded.
Please only post when I am around I would not want to miss it.
Good thread
56. gardeniadotnet said...
You (or James - same person) were my next suspect. Hmmm....
57. p. doff said...
Welcome back Planning4aMalct.
58. gardeniadotnet said...
Oh what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practice to deceive.
Sir Francis Bacon
59. crunchy said...
The rule of the stock market is that most people get fleeced by one guy, on the other side.
This thread is a very good example. Cut and Paste guy's.
I have done it. You don't set yourself up like this when you are unsure!
60. gardeniadotnet said...
@59. crunchy
It's just a game man - and you're being played.
Or are you?
61. p. doff said...
I knew you two would become pals
62. gardeniadotnet said...
61. p. doff said...I knew you two would become pals
Too late, I've gone to bed.
63. shipbuilder said...
50. crunchy said...
"48. shipbuilder
That mind set will not help you. So tell me how you see things from your side? I am all ears.
On a different note I have read some of their posts. The difference with me is that I don't spead myself thinly.
With respect to both of them."
Lol, just testing the waters, Crunchy.
My view? You'll find it hasn't changed much since I first started posting here. Many have plenty to say about NWO this and that, taking a moral stand, expressing concern for our liberty, but inevitably it's all bullsh*t, because scratch the surface and it's all about what they can get out of it, personally. And that's what got us here in the first place, so it's same old same old.
People conveniently forget that all these 'economic injustices' have been happening for decades, just not to 'us', as in the white western world. 'Lefties' have been pointing them out for decades as well. Predictably, only when it arrives at our front door do the self-interested Randian individualists get annoyed and start pointing the finger at the shadows, refusing to believe that either they or their beloved free-market capitalism might be in some way to blame.
I've heard all the conspiracy arguments and seen all the rubbish in the mainstream media as well - just two extremes with the truth in between. We've been debating it all on here for months. The mistake is thinking that one side can change the other's mind when both believe each other is deluded, brainwashed, not seeing the truth, at a different level of consciousness, whatever.
It's fun trying, though.
64. crunchy said...
60. gardeniadotnet
I don't get played, I have worked too hard at it.
The offer has been set.
I will remind you when each of the above arises in the hope that you see things for what they really are.
gardeniadotnet on a personal note Obama is not a savior and things will get very bad. Try not to make excuses for him otherwise you will not snap out of it.
Good night all. I enjoyed the views of people that had something to say. lol
65. nopensionnohouse said...
Well who ever Crunchy is I vote we give him a nick name. Any suggestions?