Tuesday, Dec 23, 2008
My patience is wearing thin
The Times: Bailiffs get power to use force on debtors
The government, which wants to crack down on people who evade debts, says the new powers would be overseen by a robust industry watchdog. However, the laws are being criticised as the latest erosion of the rights of the householder in his own home.
Posted by gardeniadotnet @ 08:49 PM (2178 views) Add Comment
81 Comments
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1. sovietuk said...
"Under the regulations, bailiffs for private firms would for the first time be given permission to restrain or pin down householders."
2. enuii said...
Although; Some restraint should be exercised, according to the “search and entry powers” guidelines. “If a person locks himself in their home, it might be reasonable to break open the door, but probably not to smash a hole in the wall,” it advises.
In a famous declaration, William Pitt the Elder, the 18th-century prime minister, said: “The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the crown.”
So as we are going backwards here I fully expect the return of Debtors Jails, The Workhouse, and The Village Stocks.
3. This comment has been removed as it was found to be in breach of our Blog Policies.
4. Saywhat said...
I suppose you need to turn this question around. If somebody owed you money and you could not get it from them, then there has to be some method of doing this. Imagine all those landlords who do not return deposts to tenents when they leave.... at least now there some teeth in actualy getting the baliffs in... My own expeince you go to court, win your case but then can't get the award out of the people...
Kick the doors in... take back what you owed... I like it...
5. gardeniadotnet said...
A SERIOUS misjudgement on Brown's part. This is an absolute gift for Cameron, but is he man enough?
6. hpwatcher said...
I want to f#ck up who ever tries to pass this.........
The Government of Gordon Brown....the biggest menace ever to get to power in the history of this country.
7. crunchy said...
This is exactly what I worry about.....................
You can call me what you bloody want, but I love what is left of my country.
I do not want to see the last bit of it go by the way of America.
3titaniccaptain said............. Anyone who does this for a living is no better than a paedophile (I never use that word lightly).....I am so angry. Crunchy...... This could be a taster of the new future non-business sector. Bring back British Industry.
Where will this end? Debt is one thing but..................................................................................................is another!
8. plato said...
Well you can still vote this lot into oblivion (Don't miss the opportunity. It would not be a surprise if it will be the last chance.) and spare the country any more damage. Surely you don't need more convincing!
9. it_is_going_with_a_bang said...
Whilst trying hard to ruin anyones savings and convince them to borrow money they havent got he's proposing treating people who borrow and can't pay back as like this?
Idiot. Maybe I should pin him to the floor and demand my savings interest back.
10. amjidk said...
Ba$*ards
11. little professor said...
Shocking stuff.... just not got the words to describe how angry this makes me
12. gardeniadotnet said...
4. Saywhat said..Kick the doors in... take back what you owed... I like it..
Just try it mate.
13. This comment has been removed as it was found to be in breach of our Blog Policies.
14. titaniccaptain said...
I have just opened a nice 10 year old macallan single malt to calm me down...........I will let you all know when I have finished..........
@enuii 2
“The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the crown.”....................as someone with a temper like a zombie out of 28 days latter on steroids..........this seems like a slap in the face with a gauntlet..........baliffs please knock on my door...........but before you do say your farewells to your family and friends as I will mine until they let me out of prison........
I realllllllllllly feel like rioting over this...........
15. mken said...
As titaniccaptain points out -
The Bankers are bailed out.
The population is criminalised.
16. gardeniadotnet said...
14. mken said...
>The Bankers are bailed out.
Not yet they're not.
>The population is criminalised.
Not yet they're not
I'll be shoulder to shoulder with you tc. Enough's enough.
17. luckyjim said...
Am I out of touch ? To me this seems a much bigger issue than ID cards and 42 days detention. So where is the opposition ? Who is making a fuss?
In theory bailifs are a necessary evil. In theory they are just evil - often taking hundreds or pounds worth of goods to repay even a small parking fine. It's a racket. More regulation is needed and more protection for the public. Have we become so apathetic that laws like this can just go unnoticed ?
I can see the government reviewing this - when someone dies.
18. This comment has been removed as it was found to be in breach of our Blog Policies.
19. crunchy said...
Above comment 17 is in my humble opinion!
20. symo said...
Is not now the time to act. All it takes is for good men to stand by and do nothing. Well it is time to stop doing nothing and become active in removing these anti-magna carta laws and government.
21. This comment has been removed as it was found to be in breach of our Blog Policies.
22. Tinker said...
It is almost like we are being prodded, and prodded, riled, called names... dared to fight back.
This is dangerous ground, and pushing people too far.
Truly the most despicable and inept government we have ever had the 'pleasure' of being under.
The criminalisation of the masses continues... 'You will learn to love this government.'
23. crunchy said...
20. titaniccaptain Don't be shy to say "New World Order" it is in countless mainstream press releases. Check it out!
Sometimes they replace the word World with Global like it sounds softer and less threatening.
Don't agree with the rest. Please do yourself a favour.
24. titaniccaptain said...
@Crunchy
21.
Well its an idea lol...........either that or dont have ideas..........having ideas wins hands down even if they are wrong
25. mdmick said...
People protect their homes. It's a basic instinct.
Do you remember the big news story about a man who shot a burglar?
There will be people who do not believe that a. the person is really a bailliff or b. do not believe that he has the right to use force.
So a fight will ensue when he/she uses force to enter the property. Almost inevitably, surely, there will be a maiming or fatality. And the Court of Appeal might follow principles very different from the current government's. And the media might champion the home owner. It just looks like a naive move by the government.
And a lot of the bad guys, who this law is intended to beat, are going to be too savvy to be caught by this.
26. gardeniadotnet said...
@20 titaniccaptain - no need
You've seen Home Alone haven't you? Then think what an angry, desperate father can achieve ( with accomplices if necessary).
Better order a job lot of bullet-proof vests, Gordon.
An Englishman's home is is his castle.
27. Dude said...
@6, hpwatcher:
"The Government of Gordon Brown....the biggest menace ever to get to power in the history of this country."
Not really. Remember all this debt thing, freeing the markets and encouraging people to achieve anything they can -- but pay later -- can be clearly traced to the 1980s. Alas Blair and Brown are just continuations of the same.
It is not New Labour that we need, just Labour.
28. crunchy said...
22. titaniccaptain
Take your point!
There are other ways. The numbers will have to be greater with less doubt. IMHO
29. martin said...
I nearly sold my house that I bought in the early 90s early last year, when the sale fell through due to my solicitor f**king up and dragging things out (I have no mortgage luckily and was wanting to do as most have you have and rent until the dust settled), I did most of the leg work and my solicitor from what I can ascertain did nothing but wait around for questions for my buyers solicitor, from which I had to supply answers and documentation. Since the sale fell through we left the issue and decided not to sell due as we found out we were going to be parents for the first time. It has been a while since we heard from the solicitors but they have said that we now owe them £490 ....................... FOR WHAT? YOU DID F**K ALL! I now have a 6 month old here so what would others do to protect their families against these idiot thugs? I know how far I would go! As Gardeniadotnet says "just try it mate"
30. icarus said...
Live at least one floor up and pour boiling oil on anybody who tries to force his way in, say I.
Mixed messages from the clowns running the country. Borrow and spend more than you can afford in order to keep what's left of the economy running - and get bailed out when things go awry...........but we'll force our way in to grab the family silver if you've spent more than you can afford.
Why can't the bailiffs just grab the things you bought with the money you borrowed? Because it's all rubbish that lost most of its value the minute you walked out of the shop with it.
31. crunchy said...
I walked into a Bank yesterday and saw from a window, a picture of a big fat juicy turkey.
It had been placed on a plate with nothing around it, fully cooked and ready for eating.
Merry Christmas UK.
32. Tony2007 said...
Yes. The parasite is about to consume the host and just in time for xmas too.
33. Tony2007 said...
Yes.
The parasite is just about ready to finally consume the host.
34. stillthinking said...
The root cause of this is current ease of default on unsecured debt, and there is plenty of unsecured debt in the UK, and the New Labour government consider the refusal of banks to lend unacceptable. One reason for their refusal is that they have to incorporate the default rate into the cost of the loan, which in a time of high default, makes a reduction in borrowing costs impossible.
So by lowering the risk of default through legalising knee-capping and arm breaking, actually lowers the cost of borrowing. I dont think this will work personally, because flooding the market with seized second hand goods of not much value will not recover much, but mainly because the problem is that the UK is holding more debt than it is possible to repay, so a solution which is essentially "oh but we will -make- you repay." ignores reality. Although certainly this makes the UK a worse place to live. Nice to see so many supportive comments from the USA in the article.
Also, one of the reasons for the many problems in the UK is the fact that both for the individual and also government, we dont feel that we have to repay. I think that people feel that if it all gets too much they can just get off the bus, which leads them into problems.
This legislation is pointless though because it achieves nothing. The debt is still there, and people cannot repay their debts if they dont have enough money...
Cut taxes, slash the public sector, and allow disposable income to increase. The only way.
35. p. doff said...
Yeah, but in the recent case where a woman had a CCJ in her favour against her bank for imposing unfair charges, the thought of the bailiffs kicking in the banks front door does have a certain appeal.
36. drewster said...
Have to agree with all of the above. Especially liked the Home Alone comparisons - how long will it be til a bailiff is killed by an electrified door-handle? What else did they do in the film?
Morally, bailiffs are pretty bad. For debts, the onus is on the lender to not lend too much. For unpaid fines or taxes, there are easier ways for courts to reclaim money: attachment of earnings, working in community service to repay the debt, etc. Bailiffs should be a very last resort.
37. crunchy said...
29. stillthinking said..."Cut taxes, slash the public sector, and allow disposable income to increase. The only way".
So,so true....but hold on, "2005" whoops! Are we now too far down the line to do anything Mr Brown?
Tr....r......................................................
38. luckyjim said...
I remember a case of a council officer being shot - must of been early 90's. He had gone to evict an old man because he didn't have planning permission - his house was to be demolished. The old boy was a bit of an eccentric. The council officer thought it would be laugh so he brought a TV news crew with him. In fact, it was a laugh when the council officer got shot in the backside - live on lunchtime news.
Somebody will die as a result of this new legislation.
39. nopensionnohouse said...
For a minute there I thought I was reading a Daily Mail article.
It would seem an English mans home is no longer his castle.
Try forcing your way into my home for WHAT EVER reason:
One of us will end up on the floor; Unconscious… Not in a good way.
And the only way it will be me is if you get me first. You better make it good or you’ll be hospitalised for your trouble.
40. beartil2010 said...
i. I would critically injure anyone who tried to smash their way into my house and take my belongings. Putting your life on the line is natural when you have a family.
ii. I absolutely despise Gordon Brown and this labour government. They caused this economic disaster, and their spineless evil socialism is destroying the country in which I grew up.
41. Hobdoll said...
I am astonished that they feel they can do this, I am even more astonished that people seem prepared to accept it. The time for talk is over, people should be out on the streets.
hob
42. nopensionnohouse said...
Crunchy said... "Welcome to the NWO I keep banging on about"
Er, you haven't mentioned the NWO nonsense since you started posting here.
Could you be Malct or more likely Spamming4aCrash per chance?
BTW. Contrails do not exist. You heard it here first.
Discuss.
43. stillthinking said...
Evil Socialism? Is that we have?
Although the right wing has typically been labelled fascist, fascism is actually a very normal development from socialism, and is the political view that;
The needs of the state come before the needs of the individual.
Or as Spock put it so well making an unusual pro-fascist political statement when he radiated himself to save the Enterprise, "The good of the many outweighs the good of the few" . Actually that wasnt exactly what he said but anyway I cant fully remember. Just shocked that Spock was fascist. Anyway, this is what we have (not socialism) because ;
The (income) needs of the state (employees) come before the (income) needs of the (private sector) individual(s).
Not socialist!
44. titaniccaptain said...
@lucky jim 33
If you can find that on you tube I would love to watch it..........
45. stillthinking said...
Socialism is the political idea that wealth is distributed according to need, which is why it usually fails, because people are too fundamentally selfish to workfor others for nothing.
Given that Dobson, a leading ideological member of New Labour, resides in subsidised state housing which he has no actual need for,
ergo...
New Labour is not a socialist party.
I hope these comments , as they are either a description of common terms or public record, dont violate blog guidelines. (as an aside, I feel it is very unfair that the Conservatives are always lumbered with the taint of fascism, when in fact they are most against it).
46. beartil2010 said...
too true, still thinking. When I refer to labour as socialist, it is the original creed of the party, which always becomes debased by the way people act in real life, yes even leading to fascism. 'National socialism' was what the Nazis called their policies. I believe that the rights of the individual are important, and societies that give freedom and responsibility to the individual function better than left-wing politics which end up with suppression and waste.
People can have their houses broken into and belongings taken and be assaulted by bailifs, because the government says it's okay. Pretty soon we'll be marching people off to 'work' camps where they can pay off their debts!
Labour out now! And an end to this economic madness!
47. Chris said...
"An Englishman's home is his castle".... the problem is the Englishman shouldn't have bought a castle; he should've bought a smaller house...
Also
"The new guidelines were obtained under freedom of information laws. They say homes should not be broken into when nobody is in. Reasonable grounds for breaking down the door include the “movement of a curtain”, a radio being heard or a figure being spotted inside which “may be the offender”. "....... I really don't see a problem with this AS LONG AS the bailiffs operate within the law, which is a big condition I accept, but the article does say this process "would be overseen by a robust industry watchdog".... hmmm, we've heard that before.
And
The spirit of HPC coupled with the disapproval of lenders having additional powers to recover their loans seems slightly contradictory.... to me at least.
48. theboltonfury said...
to be fair my TV is so bad I'd be grateful if someone would force entry and remove it for me. It's so bad that when I was watching the snooker at the weekend the top pockets didn't fit on the screen. I had to wait for that nob Virgo to tell me if the pot had been a success or not.
Seriously, anyone comes in to my house I'll kick them 10 times in their testicles (or fanny if it's a girl)
49. renting2 said...
Agree with stillthinking @ 29.
The banks loaned out too loosely, were regulated too loosely, kept loose records, loosely sold the debts on to debt collection agencies who now want to collect in a 'loose' manner. This legislation is a cowardly way of addressing a serious social issue, which has been exacerbated by the loose legislation of Nulabor. Loans are paid out in the trust that the debtor will repay it. If we get to a tipping point where it's almost fashionable not to repay debt (see what 2009 brings) then the banks are in serious trouble and the courts won't be able to cope. This legisaltion is all about maintaining the stigma and fear of not paying debt back.
Point to note is that a bailiff has no power without a court order, so will only be able to exercise these powers once a court has judged the case. But mistakes are made with a monotonous regularity (check out the debt forums on the consumeractiongroup.co.uk).
When a large creditor (bank etc) says you owe money the credit bureaus (Experian, Equifax and Call Credit) believe them implicitly and will annotate your record accordingly, because the banks pay them! When that bank says you've missed a payment the same happens again. If you have a dispute with the bank the bureaus will not argue with the bank, nor will the Information Commissioner. If it does get to court, the debtor (unless properly represented) will lose because of our adversarial system.
If you look into debt law you will see that it is almost medievil in its approach, possibly even in conflict with EU legislation. It needs serious overhaul but the gummint will not do it because of the danger that they will be seen as the 'debtor's friend' at the expense of the banks.
50. theboltonfury said...
there are of course different categories of debtor. Those who deserve a break and help and then those who have raped a credit card with no intention of paying it back - or those who feel that council tax isn't for them and I should pay for their bins instead. In these cases forced entry is merited
51. 51ck-6-51x said...
This is totally SICK, an injustice to civil liberties.
52. fubar said...
Bailiffs will kick in doors and thre will be injuries. The Bailiffs employers will have to supply equipment to protect their staff. Helmets, body armour and stab proof vests. Then it'll be pepper sprays to subdue the householder. Handcuffs for the restraint and before you know it you've got bailiffs that look like S.W.A.T teams kicking in doors. IF this is passed. I like titaniccaptains idea of the website as an information/rally point. Plenty of bailiffs are little more than thugs as it is, this is a thugs charter.
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54. crunchy said...
36. nopensionnohouse said...Crunchy said... "Welcome to the NWO I keep banging on about"
Please check my former posts before you start to write negative lies about me. Some of what I have said "The stingers" have been removed.
I am not malc or planni.....
"BTW. Contrails do not exist. You heard it here first." crunchy....I have never mentioned Contrails or Chemtrails. You are incorrect there.
" will say it again, "I love what is left of my country." That is what you should be looking at. That is what matters and should to all of us.
I do try to veer away from the phrase NWO because it seems the rattle some people.
Please check your facts before you make a fool of yourself in the future and try to use your time more constructively.
Divide and rule is a technique you need to look into and seriously think about because you are falling for it. I do to from time to time, but try to keep a check on it!
Back to the article please and good day to you nopensionnohouse.
55. nopensionnohouse said...
Looks like I got a nerve there.
56. a saver said...
This is a disgusting law but I look forward to seeing GB and AD get set upon in their homes!
They have borrowed so far beyond their means they give new meaning to the phrase.
The way they have told barefaced lies and defrauded and stolen from every taxpayer, saver and pensioner in this country it's a miracle they haven't been set upon by a lynch mob.
57. bellwether said...
Titanic Captain@3, the most ridiculous statement I've yet to read on this site.
58. crunchy said...
47. nopensionnohouse said...Looks like I got a nerve there
You have got a nerve. lol
Only joking!
34. nopensionnohouse........crunchy: Now that's the BULLDOG spirit!
59. bellwether said...
Also everyone else this is the Times reporting here, why not take the time to actually find out what is proposed rather than just fitting it into your mind set and reacting. I'm bored reading about what a mess we are in the UK, bored reading what a terrible cant GB is. The site is increasingly populated with people who just want to complain about the world and how it should be different. It's life get on with it.
60. nopensionnohouse said...
“Now that's the BULLDOG spirit!”
Keep the spirit alive, brother.
61. nopensionnohouse said...
Bellwether “The site is increasingly populated with people who just want to complain about the world and how it should be different. It's life get on with it.”
Yes, but I think the .gov floats things like this to gauge reaction. Predictably this will be squashed before it even draws its first breath. Bit the point is we have to kick up about this or it (or things like it) might stand a chance of being passed.
62. crunchy said...
20. crunchy said...6. little professor said...malct @4 - if the NWO was supposed to be a big secret conspiracy, why would Gordo keep mentioning it in public?
When two strange dogs meet, they get walked side by side with the owner in between. This is done for a while to aviod a dog fight.
The dogs then have been conditioned to accept each other over this time.
Here is an example. Just for the record nopension. Ignore the malc bit..The curse. lol
Tuesday, December 23, 2008
63. Renting2 said...
bellwether@51-"It's life get on with it." - I can understand some of your frustration, but people should have views and they should air them. If we just 'got on with it' no-one would question anything and I'm sure that's not what you want - otherwise you wouldn't be here (esp on Xmas Eve!). Keep questionning until you get a meaningful answer is what I say!
64. Northern Bear said...
Is this the same government which encourages people to get into debt? What a bunch of hypocrites.
65. renting2 said...
Some people have been trying to make a difference here:
http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bailiffs-sheriff-officers/61524-baliff-petition-stop-them.html
It's very long and detailed but well worth a read if you do feel strongly about this subject.
66. icarus said...
Bailiffs paid by the Chinese to smash into the US Treasury? Probably not - they'd be paid with more paper dollars.
67. p. doff said...
Wow - what a lot of testosterone you lot have!
I bet if somebody owed you and your family some money and ignored your polite requests for it's return, you too would probably use aggressive tactics to get it back.
Just playing devil's advocate here.
68. Puppee said...
i don't know what all the fuss is about, the answer is simple if you can't afford it you can't have it , if you borrow cash you have to pay it back why should my bills be higher because of defaulters , trouble today is most people want the lifestyle they can't afford so fund it through credit i have no sympathy for any of these people
69. thelostdecade said...
The seemingly overwhelming approval of borrowers being able to avoid repaying debts coupled with the overall spirit/point of HPC seems slightly contradictory, or perhaps this has become a civil liberties website without me being aware.
Also, perhaps the Englishman shouldn’t have overpaid for his castle in the first place, and gone on (and enjoyed) a spending binge…
70. titaniccaptain said...
@Bellwether 49.
"Titanic Captain@3, the most ridiculous statement I've yet to read on this site."............an achievement at last........good on you bellwether for having an opinion just like my drunken rant last night.....which I actually stand by today in the cold light of hangover
@Bellwether
"Also everyone else this is the Times reporting here, why not take the time to actually find out what is proposed rather than just fitting it into your mind set and reacting. I'm bored reading about what a mess we are in the UK, bored reading what a terrible cant GB is. The site is increasingly populated with people who just want to complain about the world and how it should be different. It's life get on with it."........Now that is the most ridiculous statemant that I've yet to read on this site
Anyway never mind all that...........Bellwether a Merry Christmas to you.........
71. last_days_of_disco said...
I think hiding behind civil liberties is a bogus way of avoiding your debts. However if you break down the moral fabric of a society and destroy social cohesion through mass immigration, then the only route left if draconian law enforcement. This is because the social contract becomes meaningless as there are too many who don't play by the rules, they come from cultures where the rules are different.
So now we are starting to face the real bill for the "prosperity" of Nulabour. Its a poison chalice. The English (and I mean the English, not the Scottish or the Welsh) need to kick this government out, drive them north of the border and take their country back. The deconstruction of the English identity is a completely premeditated act. If you read up on the approach adopted by social psychologists in South Africa to "solve" racism there you will find exactly the ideas that have been applied to the English (I can cite papers for those who don't believe me). We have been taught to hate ourselves so that we can accept all kinds of different groups.
The social psychologists are completely open about this, there is no secret conspiracy in any of this. Multi-culturalism is basically based on this premise. The problem of course is that the only people who were sucked in were the English themselves (i.e. we did this to ourselves). The people who have come to live in England have not abandoned their identity because they realise that would be stupid (unlike us). So now we are sinking lower and lower while they rise higher and higher (hey wait a second there, I feel a quote from Deuteronomy coming on).
Where I live, I see it all the time. The fact is the social cohesion of the immigrant groups is in rude health while the English cower behind their curtains. We need to go out and do what the English do best, be polite and insist others to do the same! :-D
We need to exercise all our rights, so that when the government attacks them they have a huge law enforcement problem and face a revolt at every level. Go out, talk to people, exercise your freedom of speech.
72. titaniccaptain said...
One last thing............I was just on the phone to a friend of mine...........He came up with a very good point........With these new laws passed what would a baliff do if he had to visit your house?.............He would wait until the husband had gone to work then knock...that baliff would enter your house via the door being opened or a boot when your in work whilst your wife looks after the baby then the door is kicked in......and someone is holding your wife down whilst another goes through your posessions.........and all this because your in financial trouble and have been a hard worker all your life and there is a depression coming and you losing your job..............and I have met a few baliffs and they are scum......brute thugs...........ok I know im no saint..........who would make the choice to become a baliff?............what kind of person would choose to do what they do?.............as for the argument stated earlier about the roles being reversed and someone owed me money then I would do nothing it would be my own stupid fault for lending it in the first place, anyway if that argument is used to justify the gross use of force against the people of this country by baliffs then it is a sad reflection on the individual .If some of you want to justify this then fine go ahead it says more about you than me..........I know im a crude angry vulgar genius with a bad temper and my halo is soiled with sh#t so I must say sorry........not
73. sovietuk said...
This argument is quite simple, you either want to live in a country where the state interferes as little as possible in people's lives or you want to live in a country where in every room of your house (sorry the state's house) there is a state CCTV camera and a state loudspeaker with a government official watching your every move and at any second a group of black booted bully boys can burst into your front room and beat you up even if the person next door suspects you of thinking the wrong thing. That sadly is where this whole thing is heading if people keep sympathising with the sort of thing that is being proposed by this new legislation.
74. This comment has been removed as it was found to be in breach of our Blog Policies.
75. crunchy said...
Whatever the views it heartens me to see that some of the UK populas still has an opinion.other than... What colour i pod do you want darling? The diva yellow one of course!
Thanks HPCers.
Merry Christmas!
76. bertywooster said...
I remember reading about a fascist party that arrested opposition MPs, illegally invaded another country, who had a dark prince of propaganda, who had a state broadcaster to disseminate lies and untruths, and suspended the rule of law. It could not happen here in the UK.
77. 51ck-6-51x said...
Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007
The specific part is schedule 12, item 14.
78. Malct said...
and Merry Xmas to you crunchy
79. Troy said...
bertywooster - very clever
trumps cards are best kept up your sleeve around here it seems
80. 51ck-6-51x said...
^^ Oh and of course 18, 19, ...
81. Mikeymoo said...
Every house should have a tree in its front garden. I would like to see a Bailiff get past my tree-trimming chainsaw.