Thursday, Dec 18, 2008
Can't say it better than Dr Williams
Telegraph: Gordon Brown's spending plan like 'drug addiction'
"Rowan Williams also said the credit crunch was a welcome "reality check" for a society that has become driven by unsustainable greed".
Not just Germany thinking we're "crass"...
Posted by growler @ 01:08 PM (1254 views) Add Comment
38 Comments
- If you do not have an admin password leave the password field blank.
- If you would like to request a password allowing you to add comments and blog news articles without needing each one approved manually, send an e-mail to the webmaster.
- Your email address is required so we can verify that the comment is genuine. It will not be posted anywhere on the site, will be stored confidentially by us and never given out to any third party.
- Please note that any viewpoints published here as comments are user's views and not the views of HousePriceCrash.co.uk.
- Please adhere to the Guidelines
1. paul said...
Williams is a one man intellectual institution.
That's what I like about him - he's never afraid to say unpopular things, well outside the remit of the CofE.
2. drewster said...
Heavy on general platitudes and wouldn't-it-be-nice-ifs, but no real solutions. Same as what religious leaders have been saying for millennia.
Also, what's the connection between a "volunteer culture" and the credit crunch? Are levels of volunteerism higher in Germany? Not that I'm aware of. No, the social fracturing that worries the Archbishop has much deeper roots. Even in the 1920s, people complained that community and family ties were breaking down because of new technology, especially cars. See the Middletown studies [1929 and 1937] or the book Bowling Alone [1995].
3. Natasha's Dad said...
He should have said it 2 years ago.
Listening to the interview he still refused to crticise the establishment
I am so glad I am not a mmember of the established church
Where was the quote from the Old testament- 7 years of plenty followed by 7 years of famine- guess which we are in now
4. This comment has been removed as it was found to be in breach of our Blog Policies.
5. This comment has been removed as it was found to be in breach of our Blog Policies.
6. paul said...
"Every transaction in the developed economies of the West can be interpreted as an act of aggression against the economic losers in the worldwide game."
Hardly populist platitude really is it? I don't recall George Carey ever offering an opinion on world trade, and it should be remembered that Williams was overlooked for the Archbishop post for many years because of his outspoken views, which he refused to give up.
Germany is the closest Europe comes to a socialist democracy.
Did you know that Porsche elected to pay more corporation tax to the city of Stuttgart, rather than the lower rates offered in recognition of the employment it generates?
Did you know who the principal shareholders of Bosch are? They don't exist! Bosch is 92% governed by a board of trustees running the company based on a socialist mandate as a charity.
Volunteerism, on a corporate scale no less, wouldn't you agree?
7. bertywooster said...
I'll volunteer an opinion. This man said nothing about this issue during the last decade. I heard him on the radio this morning and the Blessed John Humph had to drag a condemnation out of him.
8. letthemfall said...
I have a lot of time for the Archbishop. I don't think it is so important the detail of what he says - he accepts that he has no economic expertise - but the moral leadership he offers. God knows we need it.
9. paul said...
He's always been against the short termism of the free-market.
"Against" is one thing - and (I agree drewster) is rather broad, but offering a solution is another matter. Williams is not an economist.
10. japanese uncle said...
He delivers the voice of God if there resides any. Reminds me of Jesus Christ cricified as he ousted all those tacky money changers from the court of temple.
11. inbreda said...
I am always confused by intelligent outspoken people who are also god-botherers. The two just don't gel for me.
12. inflation is eating my savings said...
Drewster- if you are interested in the effects of technology in this way, check out Lewis Mumford and Jaques Ellul
13. paul said...
inbreda, Williams is an agnostic in disguise.
14. hubbers said...
I agree with his general sentiment that Clown is spending like a drug addict though. He created the biggest boom this country has ever seen and he SPENT THE LOT. Now that the cupboard is bare and the revenue is declining fast he is proposing to spend spend spend again.
Years from now people will look back and wonder what drugs Clown was on.
15. growler said...
I'm not religeous at all, it's just "when you're right, you're right". It's not intended to be ironic - but a blind man can see what Dr Williams is saying is correct. He enjoys the position of being outside of politics and being able to talk about greed, covetiousness and debt and their relationship. He's not wrong - and really and thruthfully - everyone knows it, although they don't want to know it.
16. drewster said...
9. inflation is eating my savings said...
Thanks, just had a brief look, they look pretty interesting! Are you any kind of expert on this stuff, or just (like me) an interested amateur?
17. lierbag said...
The man is an idiot. I remember the three minutes of stony silence following the question put to him at the time of the Iraq invasion on Radio 4: 'is it morally acceptable to invade Iraq?'
Err . . . Rowan . . . you have only one book delineating the articles of your faith. It says 'Thou shalt not kill'. This is supposedly the word of God. People have been burned at the stake for not giving any ground on their basic core Christian beliefs - yet this clown has managed to become the Archbishop of Canterbury.
Yet all I could hear, were the cogs and gears of a man's mind grinding away, as he visualised his cushy job going up the Swanee, and his being pilloried in the 'Daily Heil' if he gave an unacceptable answer.
Don't let that plummy-voiced pseudo articulate manner fool you. He's an idiot.
18. paul said...
lierbag, in a soundbite, what is your own answer to that loaded question?
19. paul said...
There you go. You've already taken longer than he did.
20. bertywooster said...
Rowan is right about Gordon's addiction and greed but wrong in his economic criticism. I pose this question, if, as he said, the free market is not a good method of distribution then how would he resolve the economic question and in particuliar the first two elements of that question?
21. lierbag said...
Paul said: 'lierbag, in a soundbite, what is your own answer to that loaded question?'
As me? 'No'
As Rowan (cue implausibly sonorous tones): 'No, because the Commandments preclude us from a) bearing false witness b) coveting our neighbour's property and c) killing; all of which have been encompassed by this present ill-judged enterprise against Iraq. Declaring this course of action to be morally aceptable, is not only an affront to all Christians, but to all those with a belief in a benign God, and unfortunately signals the acceptability of anysimilar form of aggressive action taken in future, by any government declaring it purely in its national interests to do so'.
22. Chilli said...
As a moral person without any real responsibility I can categorically say that invading Iraq was wrong...!!!
On the other hand, what if they did have nuclear weapons and we might all be dead today? Its a bit different when you are the one making the call.
Or perhaps there is the political consideration that ' you have to pick your battles'. If the church blindly protested against everything, they may not be listened to in the future. In fact that is what the first commandment is about 'don't use the Lords name in vain.'.
So in fact; the church is breaking the first commandment when it offers criticism that has no realistic chance of being accepted.
No Williams is one bible basher I can respect. He's dead right. And I'm shocked to be saying this.
The problem with modern society is a lack of appreciation for real value rather than nominal value. Nominal value being the profits you make today never mind the sh*t that goes down tomorrow. At its heart; 'greed'.
23. nopensionnohouse said...
Ha ha lierbag. +1
24. need-a-crash said...
lierbag @17 & 21.
I don't think the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" applies to a war situation. The Jews of the Old Testament (who were given the 10 Commandments by God) then went on to fight many wars against other tribes in the Middle East in order to secure the Promised Land of Israel. They were guided in these wars and indeed commanded to undertake them by God. Presumably He realised this might entail killing the odd person??
The commandment is to do with "Murder" in civil society and is not the same as "Killing" in battle. I'm not a lawyer or theologian but I think you'll find there is a fairly established difference between the two.
25. fjcruiser said...
Well, I wonder how much the church has lost financially. A fair amount I think.The archibishop will be changing his tune when it is time to retire and receive his meagre pension from the church hey?
26. p. doff said...
Religion? Pointless to debate I'm afraid.
27. Lierbag said...
need-a-crash: 'I don't think the commandment 'thou shalt not kill' applies in a war situation.'
Yes it does. The commandment is crystal clear. But let's not turn this forum into a theology debate. What you've actually touched on here is the endemic hypocrisy within organised religions where, given a set of instructions supposedly authored by their 'GOD', they conveniently find any way they can to worm their way out of their obligations, mainly because entails demanding a fairer more equitable society, and an end to imperialistic conflicts, thereby upsetting the powers-that-be which require the rubber-stamping of the church, to give their actions moral authority.
By the way, as 'GOD' certainly doesn't exist in any form so far envisaged by any religion, the whole thing is academic. But, as to why an entity supposedly capable of creating the infinite vastness of the universe, should be so hands-on (but apparently absent since) in directing the activities of a bunch of spear-waving, sandal-wearing, beardy-weirdies nearly 3,000 years ago (yet be a 'no-show' for industrial scale atrocities like Belsen or Hiroshima) is quite beyond me.
28. paul said...
lierbag, I think Williams' answer is better than yours, and an awful lot better thought out.
Or are you planning to elaborate on your "no" answer?
29. paul said...
Second thoughts, I'm not really all that interested in the background to your no answer.
Either way, your criticism "Yet all I could hear, were the cogs and gears of a man's mind grinding away, as he visualised his cushy job going up the Swanee, and his being pilloried in the 'Daily Heil' if he gave an unacceptable answer" seems a little empty in the context of that well-thought out response, doesn't it?
30. luckyjim said...
Isn't this the same nutter who said the UK should adopt parts of Islamic Sharia law ?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1577928/Archbishop-Williams-sparks-Sharia-law-row.html
31. Freewheelin' Franklin said...
Good for Rowan Williams is all I can say. We got wrapped up in the whole materialistic frenzy and forgot all the things that are really important - community, family, friends. We all need a roof over our heads, warmth, food, clothing - but we don't need cupboards full of designer handbags and shoes.
Christianity teaches that the most important things are our relationships with our fellow human beings and with God come first (Judaism teaches much the same) and anything that gets in the way of these is bad.
I really feel for all the people who will suffer through this recession, but if there's a silver lining I hope it's that we rediscover just how important it is to have time for each other. I'll live without a BMW, I'd be pretty miserable without my family and my mates
32. Lierbag said...
Paul: 'lierbag, I think Williams' answer is better than yours, and an awful lot better thought out. Or are you planning to elaborate on your "no" answer?'
Paul, you're missing the point here. I actually wrote both of those 'answers'. What I've written, is in fact what Williams should have said when the question was first posed to him, although he unaccountably found it impossible to frame a response. The reason I'm having a go at him, is that if the leader of the Church of England can't even speak in defense of the basic tenets of his own religion, then what right has he to claim any authority for his views on anything else?
33. inflation is eating my savings said...
Drewster-
Unfortunately just an interested amateur. Not a sociologist, I'm afraid. You?
34. paul said...
"Isn't this the same nutter who said the UK should adopt parts of Islamic Sharia law ?"
Yes. But look at what he actually says rather than what the seething red faced Daily Maul says. All he was asking is that some of the moderate tenets of Sharia law should be recognised as valid in UK courts for certain communities - he was really asking a rhetorical question though, trying to get a discussion going.
It should be remembered that Williams was labelled a pagan for being a druid and member of the Eisteddfod by the popular press. What the popular press forgot to research was who the most senior druid in the land is - the Queen!
35. nopensionnohouse said...
Try going to a country ruled by sharia law and suggest that some Christian values should be adopted there!
I would like to see your reception!
36. This comment has been removed as it was found to be in breach of our Blog Policies.
37. This comment has been removed as it was found to be in breach of our Blog Policies.
38. This comment has been removed as it was found to be in breach of our Blog Policies.