Saturday, Jun 21, 2008
Anyone got advice on ending a tenancy
LandlordZONE: History of Landlording
This history tells all about landlords' attitudes to tenants - very instructive - but can anyone help me with some advice on ending my tenancy?
Posted by montesquieu @ 06:28 PM (1081 views) Add Comment
20 Comments
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1. montesquieu said...
I just submitted formal notice to my landlord (six weeks before leaving, after having told him verbally a month before that).
I told him in the letter I'd deduct the six weeks' deposit he owes me from the remaining rent, meaning I pay him £200-ish later this month, rather than £2000 over that period.
The reason for doing this is I'm doubtful on two fronts I'll get my money back: 1) he's skint, he's selling up for that reason, I mean I had someone round wanting to reposess his van a while back; 2) there';s some bad blood because I wouldn't let estate agents turn up with a couple of viewers at 2h notice.
Anyway just picked up a voice mail and he's not a happy bunny. What's the position here - how do I protect myself and what can he do if I don't pay those last six weeks up front? I've been told I'm all clear with the letting agency checks for the new place. The deposit predates the 2007 arrangements, was paid directly to him in 2005.
Anyone got a view? I should really pay, I know but I just don't trust I'll get my money back (his voice mail accused me of having the place 'in a state' presumably because I haven't tidied it to his standard for viewings).
2. paul said...
If you have any doubt about the landlord's reliability in repaying, my advice is - deduct the deposit from the last month's rent.
I am assuming the tenancy was taken out before the Tenancy Deposit Protection Scheme came into place, otherwise he will land up in front of a judge if he refuses to repay without going to arbitration as part of the scheme.
It sounds like he's angling to blame you for his lack of success in becoming a propert millionaire, so don't have any of it - I've seen too many tenants disappointed by landlords running off with deposits. My answer to the problem before the TDS was never to make sure that there was a keys-deposit handover process. No deposit, no keys.
3. Stevie Dee said...
@montesquieu,
how strange, exactly the same happened to me... there are no protection rights for the tenant... don't give the guy a penny. And next time he comes around at short notice call the police for harrassment.
4. Stevie Dee said...
This is going to be a massive problem.. wanabee property tycoon cum thief. The government need to act immediately, because I was a victim. And when you are looking for security, the last thing on your mind is litigation.
5. Orwell said...
Montesquieum,
If it is the tenant wants their deposit back then there used to be standard small claims directions to trial when proceedigns were commenced.
Presumably, your Landlord can sue you for any disrepair but then again you could then defend this on the basis of the fact that it was the Landlord's duty to keep the property in repair.
I value his chances as minimal... But perhaps you should see a Legal Aid Solicitor.
6. it_is_going_with_a_bang said...
Look just keep the money.
Sounds like he won't be around for a reference anyway - that being the only reason not to do this.
Possession is 9/10ths of the law. While he has your money - getting it back won't be easy.
Forget any landlord scheme. If he's broke and doing a runner he won't care one bit.
Have you tried chasing anyone for £2000. Virtually impossible.
He has no legal way of changing anything. The only problem is the reference - as it is unlikely a new landlord would look to kindly at that sort of action.
If someone was trying to repossess his van - where is your deposit eh????
You could always explain this action to someone by stating that doubted his financial status due to the van issue.
You are perfectly within your rights to refuse entry to the property whilst you live in it. The landlord signs away their rights when they rent.
If they don't like it then tough. It's not you being unreasonable - its him.
Look after yourself - because that is exactly what he will do - with your money no doubt!
7. jonb said...
What can he do?
Evict you, but it will take a lot more than 6 weeks for that to go through the courts. By that time you will be gone anyway.
Sue you. You counter claim for the deposit, and the end result will be that he is out of pocket by the court fee.
8. quiet guy said...
@montesquieu
Let's start with the basics: do you have a current signed contract with your landlord?
If not, then your landlord is a complete idiot and his options for getting his deposit back are probably very limited.
More likely you do and you should be mindful of your legal responsibilities.
Next question: Is the deposit protected by the "Tenancy Deposit Protection Scheme" and has he provided proof of compliance with the the scheme? (as already noted by paul above)
If he hasn't complied with current tenancy deposit law, then your position appears to be quite strong because your landlord has been a bit naughty! Perhaps you could advise your landlord that you will ask for the Alternative Dispute Resolution service (see below) to artibrate the matter for you and see how he responds.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TenancyDeposit/DG_066397
Also note this from a related page (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TenancyDeposit/DG_066380):
"The Tenancy Deposit Scheme came into force on the 6th April 2007. If you are not protecting a tenant’s deposit you will be ordered to repay three times the amount to the tenant so find out how you can protect deposits and resolve disputes."
In my experience, most tenancies are renewed every six months or year in which case, the tenancy must be covered by the TDS scheme. It doesn't matter how long you've been staying at the rented accomodation - if the last written tenancy renewal was made in writing after 6th April 2007 then it must be covered by the TDS scheme.
Obviously, I have tried to offer some constructive comments to your post but I am not qualified to give legal advice. Perhaps a trip to the CAB for a second opinion wouldn't be a bad idea?
Good luck!
9. montesquieu said...
Thanks for the input guys. What I'm worried about is the consequences of keeping the money while I'm still living there the last six weeks - can he hurt me for doing so? (after all it's my money he has in deposit. What I don't have is any paperwork about what is supposed to happen at the end thought I might just have lost that (tenancy was arranged in 2005 by a letting agent who last week helped me do the sums about what I owed for the last six weeks. After letting, the landlord took over management).
For context I'm no feckless tenant: I've already booked gardeners to come in the next couple of weeks and do the bushes/borders, and I've arranged for my weekly cleaners (a bachelor indulgence I kept on after my current bidey-in - there's a Scots word for you - moved in) to do 2h after the removal van has left, that's four person-hours including steam-cleaning carpets which is an extra charge.
Needless to say I've never missed a rent payment in over three years, that £36,000 in his pocket. In all that time he's done zero maintenance (I mean, zero) while I haven't even managed to get him to do a gas inspection even thought that's his business (gas-fitting - he's corgi registered).
In terms of 'inventory there's hardly anything, the odd curtain pole and toilet roll holder/towel ring, it was basically unfurnished, as in moving into a new build.
Nevertheless the landlord-friendly wall to wall biege carpets and magnolia emulsion, the oven and hob, the wooden kitchen floor and wooden window frames all show three years of wear and tear (plus the short few months he lived here himself). It's a family home, I used to have kids living here and still do on some weekends. It'll clean up, but it won't be 'as-new'.
Anyway I don't want to be paying for a spruce-up out of my deposit. Can he do that?
10. montesquieu said...
@ quite guy - thanks for the input.
As it stands I have no paperwork with me all (I lost it when I got divorced - I guess I can get a copy though from the original letting agent) but it was a six-month short-term standard tenancy signed in May 2005 which has gone onto a rolling monthly basis after the initial period. I'm pretty sure it's not covered by the Tenant Deposit Protection Scheme.
11. renting2 said...
I think you'll find some really informed opinions on consumeractiongroup.co.uk. Have a good search around, it covers all sorts of interesting issues not that far removed from HPC.
12. quiet guy said...
@montesquieu
"the landlord-friendly wall to wall biege carpets and magnolia emulsion, the oven and hob, the wooden kitchen floor and wooden window frames all show three years of wear and tear"
I know it's hard but surely he is entitled to some compensation if the house is not in the same condition as when you started your tenancy?
"it was a six-month short-term standard tenancy signed in May 2005 which has gone onto a rolling monthly basis after the initial period."
I'm not sure what that means but I'm surprised that any agreement drawn up by an agency didn't have a termination date. My personal experience of agencies is that they like to charge for renewal documentation (a nice little earner for a document stored on a word procesor.) If the original agreement did have a termination date and you haven't signed anything since then surely he has screwed it up because he doesn't have a contract with you.
Disclaimer: again I have to point out that I'm not legally qualified to give advice.
13. montesquieu said...
@quiet guy
My understanding is that there is an element of fair wear and tear allowed - he can claim 10% of the rent against tax for maintenance (£3600 of which he hasn't spent a penny) - otherwise surely everyone who ever left a property would be obliged to redecorate and re-carpet?
I will explore the paperwork but my understanding is that after six months it went to a rolling monthly basis (one month's notice required by either party), on the same contract. It didn't need renewal on a particular date. He served me with a letter a year ago saying he was selling the place and could require me to leave after one month after a nominated date, according to the lease. (Of course he didn't sell it).
14. bidin'matime said...
Montesquieu - if neither party gives notice, then the AST becomes a periodic tenancy, subject to all the original terms, but with notice of one month on your part or 2 months on the landlord’s part.
With regard to wear and tear, you are quite right in believing that you do not have to put right fair wear and tear. So if it was nearly new when you moved in and it now looks three years old, then that’s not any reason for him to have any claim against you.
As ‘it’s going with a bang’ says, you are quite within your rights to doubt his financial integrity based on the evidence you have. I think you’ve done exactly the right thing – he can't touch you. He might come round and kick up a bit of a fuss, but if there is only you there, then you can take it (no wife to fret abut it..).
It’s getting tough out there and it’s going to be each man for himself – you are not ripping him off, so you can leave with a clear conscience – and your deposit back! Good luck!
15. sold out said...
"Needless to say I've never missed a rent payment in over three years, that £36,000 in his pocket. In all that time he's done zero maintenance (I mean, zero) while I haven't even managed to get him to do a gas inspection even thought that's his business (gas-fitting - he's corgi registered)."
Says it all really about this amateur landlord.He has a responsibility within the law to do the inspection and provide you, the tenant with a certificate on a yearly basis.Look at this website http://www.hse.gov.uk/gas/domestic/faqlandlord.htm
Here is a comment from there faq page:
"You are putting lives at risk and breaking the law. HSE gives gas safety a high priority and will take the appropriate action to ensure compliance with the regulations; this could result in a substantial fine and/or a custodial sentence. For further information visit our enforcement page"
Keep hold of the money,and if this clown starts getting nasty i suggest you write to him (send by recorded delivery) with reference to the lack of safey certificate.If he persists then tell him that you are going to report him to HSE.
Good Luck.
Your unfortunate story is yet another example of goverments policy over the last 25 years,of not providing enough social housing and putting the rsponsibily into the hands of the private sector via the BTL industry.This is a digrace and the sooner this industry is heavily regulated the better for all of us.
16. icarus said...
You can argue until you're blue in the face about wear and tear. I once rented a place with old, dry, crumbling plaster and caught a protruding corner while carrying a chair into a room. Tried to fill in the damage but the plaster was so bad that the filler wouldn't stick. There were lots of little things like that. Were they my fault or were they accidents waiting to happen? Forget the law. The only argument that counted was who held the money. The worst mistake is to let the landlord/agent say - "don't try to clean/fix up the place - your work may not come up to our specifications. We'll get cleaners/gardeners in to do that and settle up with you after your deposit has paid their fees". I've spoken to lots of people, including those renting villas abroad for a couple of weeks holiday. The answer is always the same. Don't trust the b@stards.
17. icarus said...
.....they give you an estimate of what the cleaner or gardener will cost and, you guessed it, if you fall for that one their bills are double the estimate.
18. Orwell said...
Montesquieu,
Check out Section 1 of The Protection From Eviction Act 1977. It is a criminal offence to evict any tenant without a Court Order. Also there are Civil Statutory Damages for unlawful eviction, under The Housing Acts and they are VERY LARGE because they are punitive and not just compensatory. If proceedings were commenced for unlawful eviction in an emergency then you could also file a UN1 at the Land Registry (unilateral notice) against the freehold title. The property would then be very difficult to sell (and the mortgage company if they exist would then also be put on notice when an attempt to sell is made so that your claim would be noted although it might mean that as he is in breach of his mortgage agreement he may end up owing them!
Whether the tenant owes money or not they can only be evicted for unpaid rent after a Court Order. If he tries to evict you you can even obtain an emergency injunction at midnight from the High Court in London by telephoning them (and speaking to a Judge in Chambers (through their clerk first of course)) but you would need the money (or Legal Aid Certificate) to cover your costs and those of the Landlord's costs if you are wrong (and underetake to file the application for the injunction the next day).
19. cornishman said...
my two-penn'orth would be:
to change the lock for the last few weeks so he can't get in whilst you are out (and then change it back again the day you leave);
keep the money;
take photos of all the rooms on the day you leave (in case he tries to make out you trashed the place);
and threaten to dob him in to HMRC if he makes any more fuss (if he lived there himself for a while, it could be that he hasn't declared the rental income).
20. Stevie Dee said...
hey, your landlord could be a solicitor.