Monday, May 19, 2008
Plenty of money to take our civil liberties away
The Independent: Firms await verdict on £2bn ID cards project
The technology industry will next week learn who the Government has awarded contracts to supply the £2bn biometric identity card programme, the last and among the most secretive of the recent crop of major public-sector IT schemes.............Off topic I know but its good to see where our taxes go....The Orwellian state
Posted by titaniccaptain @ 10:13 PM (543 views) Add Comment
26 Comments
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1. magnifico said...
Apart from a few reservation about controlling the controllers, I have no problem with this.
It will save money in the long run ( think of the present palava with airside passes for airport workers and child protection measures, to mention but afew) and if you ain't got nuffink to hide wassa problem?
2. montesquieu said...
agreed with maginfico, this can only benefit the country and it's high time we had such a system. It's mainly his opposition to this that has made David Davis such an antiquated, marginal figure. We need it, we just need to make sure it's done properly.
3. doomwatch said...
Time and again we see EDS "deliver" goverment paid systems late, over-budget, and with poor functionality, yet the government
keeps letting them back in like a battered wife. Why ?!
4. Wonderpup said...
There is a subtle downside to this kind of measure, which is a decline in vigilance. The more sophisiticated and tech based our security becomes, the less those involved will feel the need to pay attention to what is going on.
I was accused by my local library of holding a book that I had already reaturned. When I questioned the accusation, the woman actualy turned the monitor of her PC to show me the entry on her screen. In her mind that was conclusive proof. I had to go to the shelf and bring the book to her to persuade her otherwise- in her mind the 'computer' simply could not be wrong.
The more powerful the technology, the less responsible the operators feel for the outcome- they become relaxed, secure in the knowlege that the 'computer' can never be wrong.
5. titaniccaptain said...
I have to disagree gentlemen I do belive this will lead to a check system where we are always under the eye of the state and that makes me uncompfortable.......not because I have anything to hide but there are other ways to tackle the problems that are given as the justification of the introduction of the biometric system
6. titaniccaptain said...
The Nanny state is a very tame expression for the way that society has turned. Fear is the tool used to make us desire the infrigement on our liberties. This may seem ver conspiricy orientated however its also a view point shared by many who simply do not wished to be monitored by a state that no one trusts. Until a perfect state exists then the monitoring should be held back with regard to these cards. But if the eutopian system existed then the need for cards would also be made redundant. It is better to treat the wound rather than put a plaster on it
7. harold said...
"He who trades liberty for security, deserves neither and will loose both"
Jefferson
8. whiteknight said...
This is open to massive abuse.
It didn't take local councils 5 minutes to start using anti-terror laws to snoop on people for all kinds of purposes.
9. crash bandicoot said...
I have posted before that this country is becoming more like the GDR. Maybe that's an exageration but if you take into account the covert and overt surveillance and the fake statistics you can see that we are getting there. OK so we can leave if we want - or can we. Thousands will be in hock to the banks soon, perhaps that will be more effective at keeping the people in than mines and fences. ID cards will only add to the control without bringing any security benefits, the forgers will be knocking them out in six months anyway.
Who watches the watchers?
10. titaniccaptain said...
Well said Crash bandicoot.
11. renting2 said...
This is extremely dangerous and should be fought tooth and nail. The Government will completely f*ck this up by handing it over to the cheapest bidder whose only bosses are the shareholders. Then it will be totally abused like anti-terrorism laws were used to check on school cachement areas.
"Sorry sir, we only let you in after you've swiped your ID card, so we know who's in here and who isn't. For fire safety you understand."
"We only sell petrol to people with ID cards now sir, please swipe it through."
"Fire, Ambulance or Police sir? But first can you give me your ID card number?"
"New NHS rules I'm afraid, no card no treatment."
"The underground is now only open to those with ID cards, policy now-safety reasons you understand. It's soon going to apply to trains and internal flights too y'know."
Sorry if that seems overboard to many but that is what will happen. I value my personal privacy and do not believe that anybody has a right to know anything about me that I don't want them to know. To argue that we should allow 'the state' total access to our lives assumes that we are all a danger to society.
Let's hope that you don't then have to swipe your ID card into the system before going on the internet and commenting on blogs!! Now who feels comfortable?
12. titaniccaptain said...
Putting this mildly back on topic...........If you want to apply for a mortgage what happens if your card gives information i.e. you were late returning your library book and then black lists you? who is going to get a mortgage? I personaly dont want to turn into a robot to tick the right boxes. "To err is human, to forgive divine" yet with this system there is no forgiveness instead "the computer says no"
13. paul said...
This is the problem with ID cards ...
14. matt_the_hat said...
The only thing I can say is when I lose my credit card or my PIN is compromised I change me card number/PIN, what happens when my biometric data is compromised do I chop my finger off or replace my eyes for new iris'. Maybe thats where stem cells come into it.
15. Landofconfusion said...
1. & 2. ...
It never fails to amaze me how people, after suffering at the hands of those who call themselves the 'honorable' government are still so willing to trust so much.
Step 1. NEVER trust your government.
16. montesquieu said...
I really have no time for the more hysterical comments here. We've heard it all before and it's downright boring.
As for the Jefferson quote, it's a bit rich coming from a slave owner (who had a concubine, no less) and foreshadowed 200 years of American hypocrisy.
BTW EDS just got bought by Hewlett Packard - Agree they have been a completely failed organisation in the UK and I do hope they are let nowhere near this project.
17. Fed Up said...
The sooner we get rid of the New Labour Stasi the better.
Harold's quote should be attributed to Benjamin Franklin who was an abolitionist, not a slaver owner.
"Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither."
18. Landofconfusion said...
> 14. montesquieu said...
>
> I really have no time for the more hysterical comments here. We've heard it all before and it's downright boring.
You're right. No problem. We don't need to do anything. It'll NEVER happen here.
The path to hell is paved with apathy.
19. harold said...
montesquieu, sure I don't condone slave owning - but you are in danger of ignoring the wisdom of Jefferson by judging him by the standards of today. If you don't think Jefferson was wise, just look at his perceptive comments regarding banking - highly prophetic, me thinks.
20. d'oh said...
montesquieu - I'm sorry to say but people like you actually scare me, i.e. those willing to give up your liberties for nothing. A large portion of the UK population has been lolled into a sense of false security from the many postwar good years. This attitude will sleep walk us into a very nasty prison society, probably not tomorrow, nor the day after, but what about 2020? 2030? Speak to some people who've lived under nasty regimes and take heed. Do you think it impossible that we could ever have such a regime in this country? How much easier would it be for that regime to keep its grip given ID cards and chips in everything from our phones to our cars to our rubbish bins? People are even proposing putting traceable ids in cash and chips in children and old people for the peace of mind of their parents and carers. ID cards were introduced in Rwanda...no one foresaw them being used for mass genocide did they?
You don't have to go every far to have nasty experiences with authority. In the US I was held at gunpoint by a police officer whilst I opened the boot of my car to get my identity papers (passport) whilst another cop had my passengers sitting in the dirt on the side of the road with his hand on his holster. We were just pulled over randomly as they were looking for illegal immigrants. I was stalked twice by police cars for hundreds of yards because I did something so socially abnormal as to walk 500 metres from the shops to my motel on the footpath. I was 30 at the time, always spoke pleasantly to the officers, clean cut, well dressed and white. All of this happened in 1 week. Just imagine if I had been Hispanic or black? Given our recent governments' love of the US, do you think this couldn't happen here?
We should not be here to serve the government, the government should be here to serve us. So many people seem to forget that.
I learnt something interesting a few days ago - the fascists and Nazi sympathizers detained in the UK at the beginning of WW2 were released during the war when there was no longer a threat of invasion. Now that was a government who understood something about liberty.There was a survey on one of the daily newspaper websites yesterday. The question was "how long should the government be able to hold terror suspects for?" The first disturbing aspect of the survey was that there was no option less than the current 28 days. Not so long ago you could barely hold someone for 48 hours, but now anything less than 28 days isn't part of the discussion. The second disturbing aspect of the survey was that 47% of the respondents thought that terror suspects should be able to be held indefinitely without charge...how much has been forgotten in 65 years.
21. Landofconfusion said...
> 4. Wonderpup said...
>
> There is a subtle downside to this kind of measure, which is a decline in vigilance.
I agree completely. What's the point in spending *a lot of money* collecting and storing this information if you don't then have the ability to process it? I know from experience (and from comparatively small datasets) that such information is only really good in hindsight, i.e. after the event with which you are trying to stop.
22. magnifico said...
Harold, apathy is by definition a sate in which nothing gets done to change the Status-Quo, I, and I suppose Montesquieu, support a change. I take in all other comments, and I'm sure that there are risks.
D'oh do you think that the police needed your ID to know you were not of black/ hispanic extraction?
23. Landofconfusion said...
> 21. magnifico said...
>
> Harold, apathy is by definition a sate in which nothing gets done to change the Status-Quo
Erm, I think you're referring to me. Let's see:
ap·a·thy
n.
1. Lack of interest or concern, especially regarding matters of general importance or appeal; indifference.
I would contest that being very concerned about the progressive intrusion into our lives by the state is not apathy.
> and I'm sure that there are risks.
There are 'risks' in everything. The question is whether the risks are justified. In my opinion and in the opinion of a great many others they are not.
> D'oh do you think that the police needed your ID to know you were not of black/ hispanic extraction?
Magnifico, in this case do you think that it is right for the police have the powers to act as they did?
24. d'oh said...
Magnifico - interestingly the pretext on which I was pulled over was because the police where checking for illegal Mexican immigrants. Neither I nor my passengers looked anything like Mexicans.
Landofconfusion - yes, this was my point. The simple fact is that the police in some western countries can and do act in shockingly abusive manners...yet some of the posters to this thread think that we should give them and the government even more power and tools to gather information on us? Frightening. After my time and experiences in the US over a couple of visits totalling a month, I never ever wanted to go back there. This is a country where the authorities can sequestrate your borrowing history at the local library without informing you. What has been going on in this country is disturbing: a proliferation of CCTVs, the recent case of BT profiling and recording people's internet usage, proposals for collecting and retaining all phone and internet logs for periods of time, chipping cars, the fact that some sites are already monitored by the authorities, the abuse of the anti-terror laws by councils and the police, the use of secret phone tapping by local councils(!) at a rate which if continued would mean that everyone was tapped at least once in their lifetime...for g*d's sake Magnifico wake up and smell the coffee! None of these things on their own is a threat to liberty, but if you put them all together it is terrifying. Why should you or I have to carry an ID to prove to anyone that we have a right to exist? I just don't understand some people...I really don't
25. magnifico said...
Landofconusion, I see your point, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this one ....
As regard to Police harassment, don't get me wrong, I don't condone it, my point was simply that abuse of power can happen anyway.
26. Landofconfusion said...
> 25. magnifico said...
>
> my point was simply that abuse of power can happen anyway.
Now I really don't understand your point. If abuse could/will happen anyway then surely it would be better to limit the scale of such abuse?