Tuesday, Mar 25, 2008
Is it just me or is something not right here?
Telegraph: HBOS directors profit as shares bounce back
HBOS led a rally in the banking sector this morning after its shares soared as much as 17pc, helped by the news that its chief executive Andy Hornby had spent hundreds of thousands of pounds on shares in the high street lender in the days surrounding last week's share price plunge...........ok ok ok yeah yeah yeah.
1. So Rumour starts about bank and shares devalue. 2. Chief executive Andy Hornby buys shares in bank. 3. Chief executive Andy Hornby goes to bank of england to get more money to save bank and push shares prices back up 4. Chief executive Andy Hornby is hailed as valiant saviour of HBOS as shares increase and he makes a packet.....Wonder how long he is going to hang onto those shares.Call me paranoid jealous even but to me its about as difficult as a scooby doo plot to work out
25 Comments
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1. japanese uncle said...
HBOS was an inside job, some may say.
2. titaniccaptain said...
Well JU if it was an inside job which it seems to be I take my hat off to those involved for pulling a heist when all the confusion was going on in the markets. In fact nothing short of brilliant. Today the real crooks get away with things that the ordinary joe bloggs doesnt..why? because its a crime done right in your face with a smile. Im blown away...if he sells those shares anytime soon he has just got his pension sorted and he can watch the HBOS sink under the weight of its sub prime and wipe a crocodile tear away then get on the first jet out of here. "And I say to myself.......what a wonderfull world"
3. Paul Hill said...
Any news from the FSA on their hunt for Dr Evil???????????????
4. p. doff said...
But it did look like a buying opportunity. Can't blame the guys for capitalising on the effects of the rumour, can we. Many others will have done the same thing.
5. japanese uncle said...
All that glitters ain't gold. Admirable story could be hiding something horribly sinister, indeed. JP Morgan the white knight turned out to be a vulture or scavenger, just trying to take advantage of the confusion and fear of systemic risk. One of those things.
6. Fools said...
Not call you paranoid or anything titaniccaptain ..but are you suspecting/ implying Chief executive Andy Hornby risked a run his bank, and whatever he earns from HBOS annualy, not the mention an Adam Applegarth type label, and was in some way responsible for:
starting rumours, knowing he's got the boys at BoE onside to sort out funding, once sorted buys a load of shares, price goes through the roof.....bingo. If so, have a look at his transaction below:
20-Mar-08 Buy Andy C Hornby 446.30p 92,812 £414,219.94
Do the arithmetic, work out the profits of his mega coup and then ask yourself the same question!!
ps You might want to ignore today's 70 point rise, which even you may agree has different different roots.
7. quiet guy said...
@titaniccaptain
Strictly speaking, we cannot completely rule out the possibility of complicity in share price manipulation but whatever happened to the Innocent Until Proven Guilty principle?
"Today the real crooks get away with things that the ordinary joe bloggs doesn't"
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought we were all able to buy shares at the same time. We (presumably) didn't. They did.
The HBOS directors would be taking a huge risk if they were involved in the share price rumours - I am sure the FSA would happily jail the lot of them if proof were found.
It's time to use Occam's Razor: I say the simplest explanation is the one in the press.
8. Daringsneakybeaver said...
OK, so given that insider trading is illegal and now even the more abstract civil offence of "market abuse" can result in unlimited fines, what's the betting that HBOS's directors traded on inside information, or more simply put their b@lls on the line by stepping in and buying?
In an open market, anyone can do the same.
How many people here did? Especially the ones criticising the evils of capitalism?
Yes people, capitalism (despite the eccentricities of completely unregulated free markets) is actually meritocratic democracy and there is little stopping anyone rising to the top given talent, conviction and b@lls.
Admittedly not everyone has perfectly equal access but frankly our equality of access here is better than in most countries, even if it is unfashionable to believe so.
There is no old-school network stopping you getting to the top, and no textbook telling you how. It's up to you if you can figure it out.
9. Fools said...
Just read the article, after I posted my earlier comment and now I see the the article really is written by a 2 year old who has just gone to BBC news/business website who incorrectly quote same 52 week low of 446.25 (wot a coincidence):
'They snapped up a total of 1.4m shares at a 52-week low of 446.25p'
The reality was roughly as follows from memory:
Wed 19th Shares dive to a low of 399p and recover to close around 433p
Thursday 20th Directors buy shares at 446p, and close day about 462p
Easter break
Today Shares shoot up to 544p, as do some other banks
10. inbreda said...
"Can't blame the guys for capitalising on the effects of the rumour, can we"
Yes we flipping well can!!!! He is head of the bank. He has insider knowledge (obviously). Using that insider knowledge tohis own advantage is criminal - whether he started the rumour or not. If it was about reaassuring people that the bank was fine, then the bank should have bought the shares on the back of the rumour (still a bit ropey) - not an individual with insider knowledge.
Insider knowledge for personal gain in the stock market is simply not on - some shareholders will have lost money to pay for his profit. Why invest in a company that is going to rip you off in that way? I cannot see how, under any circumstances, what he did wasn't criminal.
11. titaniccaptain said...
@ Quiet guy
Buying shares at that time did not seem like a sensible thing to do more like a gamble unless you were sure that the shares would then go back up... i.e. a little chat to the bank of england. As for the press I think that what is released from the mainstream media is only an indication of the enviroment not an exact representation of the facts. Yes if the FSA had proof they would all be jailed but its easy to start an untraceable rumour. My opinion is speculation based on the "facts" that the press have released. I think a good indicator will be if Mr hornby does sell his shares soon...that would send out a strong signal that his "faith" in HBOS is one that stands the test of time...and yes I wish I had bought shares in HBOS lol
12. p. doff said...
Inbreda @ 6
And what insider knowledge is that exactly? the fact that the rumour was false perhaps - but that was disclosed by the 'powers that be' to calm the market, so everybody knew. The conspiracy theorists would no doubt have ignored this and believed the opposite. We all saw the shares take a dive and you or I could have bought a few before the weekend when they rose to £4.74. We could have dumped them this morning at £5.45 ish for a nice quick profit.
Nah! sounds like hard cheese to me - sorry to have to say it, but much like the rantings of those others on this site who have missed out on the HPI opportunities.
Now where is my tin helmet!!
13. quiet guy said...
@inbreda
"some shareholders will have lost money to pay for his profit."
I don't doubt that some shareholders were spooked by the rumours i.e. victims of a crime but why should we castigate the directors for trying to repair their company's reputation (stock price).
"I cannot see how, under any circumstances, what he did wasn't criminal."
Oh, come on. They were under a press spotlight and they told everybody exactly what they were doing.
@titaniccaptain
"Buying shares at that time did not seem like a sensible thing to do more like a gamble unless you were sure that the shares would then go back up... i.e. a little chat to the Bank of England."
The fact is that the Bank of England should have been doing everything in its power to prevent HBOS being sunk by malicious rumours. I don't like the fact that we taxpayers will have to pay up for greedy bankers maistakes but on this occasion, I'd argue that HBOS, FSA and the Bank of England did their jobs.
14. titaniccaptain said...
@ Quiet guy
"I'd argue that HBOS, FSA and the Bank of England did their jobs." Well I suppose it depends on what mountain your sitting on....its all down to perspective and how you read whats going on...as I said it doesnt ring true to me. "The fact is that the Bank of England should have been doing everything in its power to prevent HBOS being sunk by malicious rumours" We dont know if those rumours were malicious. "They were under a press spotlight and they told everybody exactly what they were doing." their actions remind me of when I was in school "sir it wasnt me it was him" all good fun this debate
@ p. doff
Now where is my tin helmet!!..........lol
I think Andy Hornby has pretty good tin helmet ask him for a lend lol.
15. little professor said...
Please, stop with the conspiracy theories. listen to quiet guy, he talks sense.
16. titaniccaptain said...
@ little professor
Got alot of respect for quiet guy love alot of his postings.
As for conspiracy theories. Questioning the ethics of someone who is head of a bank that has contributed to the over pricing of houses in the u.k. is neither out of the realm of reason or off topic. :)
17. harold said...
little professor,
Please, stop with the conspiracy theory insults. listen to titaniccaptain, he talks sense.
18. quiet guy said...
@titaniccaptain
"all good fun this debate"
Yes indeed.
I don't want to go into further arguments about conspiracy versus non-conspiracy but I would like to observe that the tone of some of the postings says a lot about how our master bankers (find the pun) are perceived by many of us. These are interesting times.
19. titaniccaptain said...
@quiet guy
Its the martians who have infultrated all levels of our society that are responsable for this mess......only joking lol.
"I don't want to go into further arguments about conspiracy versus non-conspiracy but I would like to observe that the tone of some of the postings says a lot about how our master bankers (find the pun) are perceived by many of us. These are interesting times."
Im with you all the way.
Goodnight all
T.C.
20. Omg said...
I think there is rage fuelled simply by jealousy here.
HBOS said there was no problem and the rumours were false. The share price got hit for no reason. They simply put their money where their mouth is.
Why dont you people reign in the jealousy and learn to think. The "inside information" was that there was nothing wrong and they were screaming that out to anyone who would listen.
21. it_is_going_with_a_bang said...
Getting back to basics.
Insider Trading : refers to the illegal trading of securities by any investor based on information not available to the public.
As far as ethics goes it is cutting a fine line between what is and what is not acceptable behaviour.
Being in the position he is in by buying that many shares at such a time and letting it become publicly known so quickly he has in fact 'tipped' the shares in a way which possibly he should not be doing.
It is of course being argued that he is merely publicly supporting the bank.
Of course they only really profit if the shares stay up in value or they cash them in. Until then they have not really done anything wrong.
I would think given the holding he now has he would consider any drop in shares "completely outrageous".
22. inbreda said...
Who started talking about conspiracy theories?
All I am saying is that although he didn't start the rumours, he was one of a small number of people in a position to know whether the rumours were true or not. Your average shareholder was not in that position and - given what happened to NR - the average shareholder was not exactly paranoid to jump ship.
At the end of the day, he has profited because he was privvy to information that was not made available to the public (or rather, the public were not in a position to know which of the stories was true).
That is insider dealing.
23. Icarus said...
No explanation as to how Hornby raised the £41 million to buy his shares.
24. Fools said...
@ Inbreda
You really should take some time out to study the regulation on the subject you are commenting on !
25. Fools said...
@ icarus
it was £414,000
not £41million
so, even at today closing price hes made about £90,000, not really life changing (for him)