Wednesday, Mar 26, 2008
FSA Northern Rock floating in the English Channel
Myspace News and Politics: Reading the Numbers
We all know Granite is a Northern Rock floating in the English Channel but how about Whinstone or should it be Win Stone.
An in depth expose of some not so familiar NR crash background and banking generally by Simon Davies. Helpful on FSA' s open day.
Also check Seth's background if you have time, you may be surprised. cybervigilantes your post Feb 28th deserved more attention, hope this works.
Posted by malct @ 11:48 AM (1039 views) Add Comment
28 Comments
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1. plato said...
Read it, brilliant ! --- The final analysis is quite logical and in fact partly happening now. The hope is : This won't happen. Personally I'd like to read a lot of informed comments on this article so I hope this posting gets a lot of views.
2. Tom101 said...
No access to it. I imagine thats the same for most people. Any other link malct?
3. renting2 said...
'The economic repression of the masses. Not even Stalin foresaw that.'
Bill Haydon in John Le Carre's 'Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy' talking about the USA.
4. inbreda said...
Yeah - fantastic. So all my carefully saved GBP will become worthless. At least BTLers (so long as they bought a while ago) have real assets.
Didn't find this article very well explained at all. I understand some of the concepts, but it still degenerated into conspiratorial pap.
5. shipbuilder said...
Very good up until the New Wold Order trying to collapse the banking system is mentioned - after that it's nonsense, pure speculation.
This is all simply the rich making themselves richer and getting more work from the rest of us, as they have always done, since the start of time.
6. shipbuilder said...
Forget gold, i'm going to invest in white fluffy cats - all those NWO fellas will need something to stroke menacingly while planning to take over the world.....
7. malct said...
@1 plato calls for informed comments - which is what I was hoping for.
What has Carre, conspirational pap and new world order twaddle got to do with my post.
I specifically mention Whinstone and Granite because of the way Northern Rock people had used these deliberately to protect their interests. And how the FSA, Treasury and Bank of England have been completely useless in this regard. Can we have some informed comments please not just vague opinions.
By the way it's not the first time the Bank of England has been worse than useless for the British people. Did you know BofE financed Hitler right up until the outbreak of WW11 and the money came back to London as bombs. (on houses) No? check Hansard. Montagu Norman is your man. No conspiracy, no theory, just fact. Deal with it.
8. george monsoon said...
I would not discount this article as "pap", rather, take it on board, and be aware of what "could" happen.
So.. that in mind, what is our contingancy plan guys? stockpile electrical tools and grain?
9. cyril said...
I'm old enough to remember all this sort of thing being talked about in the 1970s with the floating pound etc. People with cash may lose their savings now as they did then, and houses are always a good hedge against inflation in the long run.
My point is that there is always a bogey man out there (nuclear war, oil crisis, strikes, global warming, terrorism etc) and yet we always scrape by somehow. peopel are creatures of habit - they will continue going to work even if their wages drop by 50%. Finance is over-rated and doesn't have much impact on anything in the real world.
10. Renting2 said...
Apologies malct,
All I see is sharp business being practiced as has always been done.
As to NWO, no-one can make a human society static in some form of new order.
Look at the disintegrating class structures, look at the slave trade, both caused misery but those 'orders' got dismantled and society is evolving. So anyone with any intelligence at all wouldn't even try. What they would do is make a gain while they could. Or horror of horrors maybe some of them are just flawed humans trying to do a bit of good and making mistakes!
The most powerful argument against a NWO conspiracy is that education is available to the masses as is the internet and worldwide media. Surely these would have been strangled at birth.
11. george monsoon said...
Cyril, I can see your point, but maybe we have just been lucky. Today, thanks to government policy and third world growth, we have no manufacturing industry and no farming industry to fall back on if the financial market collapses. We produce nothing except money and without that we are all in the S**T.
12. Crashwatcher said...
What I understand happened to Northern Rock was that - They ran out of working capital because they could not borrow money because of the credit crunch, savers decided that if Northern Rock were running out of CASH (not assets) they'd better get their money out ASAP or Northern Rock may have had problems giving it to them when they did want it - hence the run on the bank which caused more CASHFLOW problems. The government stepped in to give NR some cash to improve its cashflow as no one else would lend it money. The government didn't want to loose all this money so tried to find another backer to buy NR and inject some capital and give the Government back the money it lent to NR, No one would do this on reasonable terms so it Nationalised NR, The government is currently guaranteeing all the debts of NR so that for example its savers can get their money out if they want it. In simple terms the Government has lent NR a small proportion of its dept (like your parents lending you a deposit on a house) and underwritten the debt (like your parents guaranteeing your mortgage). In reality the government hasn't had to fork out anything like the total sum of the debts of NR and nor will it ever have to.
13. inbreda said...
"I specifically mention Whinstone and Granite because of the way Northern Rock people had used these deliberately to protect their interests. And how the FSA, Treasury and Bank of England have been completely useless in this regard. Can we have some informed comments please not just vague opinions."
NR put assets offshore. So do lots of companies and rich individuals. They do it to avoid paying taxes. It's happened for a long time and it has always been immoral.. Yes, the FSA, Treasury and BoE have all been useless. Add to that list politicians and Grecian 2000.
Informed comment: this is how it has always been. Nothing new to see here. Everyone is overspent. Invest in gold and currencies low in debt like CHF.
14. malct said...
Thank you inbreda, not exactly what I had in mind but I'm sure many people will see this as informed comment.
However you seem to be deep into conspiracy theories.
Are you saying there is a massive conspiracy to defraud the British Public and that we should all lie down, accept it and buy gold?
I think it's different this time, We're not in Norman Angel times now pre WW1 - the past is no proof the future will be the same.
15. bystander said...
cyril - "People with cash may lose their savings now as they did then,"
please can you elaborate on this, as I do have savings and would like them to remain intact.
16. planning4acrash said...
Now, look, you all. I'm feeling increasingly despondent with all the conspiracy theories. As you will be aware, I consider most of them to be half truths, engineered by those who want us fearful. I want posts with positive solutions. Not just where to invest our money. I want people here to post about how to group and become politically active. To campaign for real solutions. Higher interest rates would be a start. Proper regulation, etc. but I'm sure that it is more simple than all that. I think that the whole thin is a very simple scam with simple solutions. All the complexity is likely to be to distract us from what is really happening.
The new world order cited in this text is very much like those quoted everywhere else. They are useful in that they point to the logical conclusion of what banks are working towards. Yet, they do not factor in resistance, and the instability inherent in control systems. We need awareness of what constitutes a stable fair society, awareness that a lack of transparency, or over complexity of instruments distorts the system, creates unfair distribution of resources, results in poor decisions and instability that benefits the few and harms the majority.
That information must be disseminated in a way that empowers people and does not fear them into a) submission, or b) in ways that ridicules our critique of the bankers.
In short, any resistance needs to be squeaky clean and with no chance of being ridiculed like Icke. It needs common appeal. It must strike at the heart of untruths spoken in parliament and bring to their attention what must be done. It must strike at the heart of people's daily decisions, and make them aware of what they must do to avoid fuelling the system that takes from them.
17. planning4acrash said...
I suggest that we start talking about this in the discussion boards and start building a section of the wiki on this site of information on the subject. I'll start a discussion group and post a link to it. Hopefully admin do not censor it! It is merely to do with putting together information on:
a) what is wrong with the financial system.
b) what people can do about it. b) will be subdivided into two sections - i) how to avoid loosing our savings if S2R or saving for a deposit. ii) how to have some influence on making others aware and making sure that decisions makers take action.
- We will need to ensure that a copy of the info we build on the wiki is stored somewhere, to ensure that VI's cannot delete it permanently. I suggest copying and pasting every page that you create or alter. Who's in?
18. plato said...
Northern Rock was specifically given as an example in this article and entirely relevant to HPC. This to me is specific information. The generalisation : "so do lots of companies"--- is not. However truthful the phrase may be and I fully understand the meaning behind it.
Also the fact that plurals are used to discredit an idea or prognosis by implying the majority are always right, worries me.
There are several specific examples in the article and overall it's well balanced, leading to the question of : Where is this going ? Which is answered by the author's thoughts. This is a matter of debate not comdemnation for me.
Whatever else, the posting by malct has made me think a little deeper about questionable events and as a result I will look into any relevant information I can find and be able to form an opinion. This can't be a bad thing.
19. nopensionnohouse said...
@malct “No conspiracy, no theory, just fact. Deal with it.”
Well if the conclusion isn’t a conspiracy then I don’t know what is! You seem overly protective of your posting here if I may say so. Same as certain other conspiracists here. They always post loads on their own articles!
Bet your refresh button got some action today ;o)
Everyone needs to get a grip. It’s going to be OK.
There are some interesting ideas (which I enjoyed reading and actually agree with) but the conclusions are waaaay off the wall. More suited to conspiracycity.com!
As usual the recipe here is a pinch of some truths and a dash of half truths mixed up with a hand full of unhinged bat sh1t crazy conspiracy talk.
Especially the bits about NWO and us being unable to survive outside the system way down at the end.
20. layers said...
For those of you who keep screaming "it's not a conspiracy - and any thoughts to the contradictory" "unhinged bat sh1t crazy conspiracy talk", can we please take the emotionally emotive term of conspiracy out of the equation, and simply observe the facts, conjecture and thoughts - as they are.
I thought the article was well written and asks the questions of why this must happening, or could be happening. Now, I'm not about to debate what we can't prove about ultimate objectives - if there are any. However, qui bono? Who benefits. Well it sure as sh*t ain't the average joe and jane on the street, and if 'we' the tax payers bail out this confidence game then it will happen again, and we'll be old, and no one will listen.
But the fact is that we know 'free market' economics are not being allowed to play out, and the only promise we have is that it's for our own benefit; and this is unlikely. The Fed is a private banking organisation founded by JP Morgan, Warburg & Rockefeller, and ALL of the US debt is owed to said Fed.
So playing Devil's Advocate, this whole, engineered debacle, could be nothing more than a ruse take ALL the money from the public. That move would solidify power and provide a never ending supply of cheap labour and low wages that would satisfy Corporations. The Banks would then own significantly more than they do today - but they fight ala Bearn being swallowed by JPM.
The thing is that so much has changed since 911 that really all bets are off as to whether the economic turmoil will just pass and we go back to normality and talking about our houses, or if this becomes another 'unprecedented' event. But critical thinking is needed here not emotional rhetoric and prejudiced thinking.
The challenge is on.
21. Neo-serf said...
@planning4acrash.
Wise words calmly put.
I am in and have already started assembling some of the infrastructure.
How do we start to converse?
22. planning4acrash said...
Layers, that is great. You pass the test. Facts, in ways that people can understand, without extrapolation, without fantasy. Now, add that to liks to primary source information that can be traced and researched and verified by readers, and you have a solution. People will find ways to solve these problems if they are aware of, understand and do not fear the truth. Lets set up a wiki here and now on the issue of the fraud that has led to rampant house price inflation and made a house price crash inevitable.
p.s. I tried to get a user name for wiki and the link is not working. Anybody know how to make it work?
23. malct said...
16. nopensionnohouse said...
@malct “No conspiracy, no theory, just fact. Deal with it.”
npnh - no mention of UK house prices nor sign of informed comment in your posting.
sorry to post on my own article for the third time today (the other two were wholely justified) - and you leave me no choice as you have misrepresented what I said.
the above comment clearly relates specifically to Montagu Norman's money coming back to London houses as Hitler's bombs.
Intended to illustrate that BofE hasn't always acted in the best interests of the British people.
apparently you haven't viewed S2R's posting today, shame.
9. nopensionnohouse said...
He he, looks like I missed all the trouble yesterday! That’s most unlike me.
now's your chance npnh but do try to keep to matters relating to house prices.
17. layers said... 'this whole, engineered debacle, could be nothing more than a ruse take ALL the money from the public' -
perhaps not all, but a huge chunk quickly methinks see also FSA investigates itself s2r today
24. moonglum101 said...
Wow, an intelligent posting that I am in time to comment on.
It's a good article and I like the specific examples. I don't know where to start with my comments but I'll try to keep it short (it won't be) and coherent (it might not be)...
I could not follow all of the sums given relating to NR so I can neither agree or disagree with them. However, I would suggest that while the bankers have been clever enough to pursuade the government to step in, it is absolutely vital that they did so, because otherwise there was the very real possibility of economic collapse in this country. That is my opinion.
It is also what Alastair Darling said. But I cannot credit him or dithering Crash Gordon with the capacity to be part of such a historical event that is the complete enslaving of us all. The truth is, they are incompetent. Crash actually said no more boom and bust in a budget some years back. He actually said it as if he believed it. The man is a complete moron and does not have the capacity to engineer what we are seeing or to even be a part of it. Our country is on the way down, and it is not being run by people who have the power to give us the choices mentioned in the article (such as a central housing agency). They simply are not capable. Crash is a man of little foresight and that is why we are in the mess that we are in as a country. After all, who needs to save money when the economy is doing well if there is not going to be another downturn.
I completely agree that we are already slaves (to debt). The question is whether or not you are prepared to accept it in anyway... if you can run with it then maybe things won't be so bad (I don't own my own home, but I don't owe anyone anything). It may be that there are some rich powerful and greedy people who are trying to control us even more than they do now. They will always try to do this as I believe they always have done. Governments and religion, what are they if not tools for control throughout the ages.
There is truth to the old adage the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. I don't believe that U.S. and U.K. or any other countries are trying to engineer a collapse of the financial system. I think they are doing the best to avoid it but mostly with a lack of competence. The M3 no longer being published was probably an attempt to hide the dire straits that the U.S. economy/financial system was getting itself into. They saw it coming and wanted to prevent panic by hiding key data.
I do agree that inflation is going through the roof and that inflation statistics are massaged beyond recognition of the truth. Things will get more expensive. Resources in this world are running out. We as a human race are in trouble and no doubt more strife is on the way. Governements are not going to listen to us for ways of solving the problems that we face. They are going to continue to vote themselves pay increases, do their upmost to avoid publishing of their expenses (because they shouldn't need to justify them?) and also maintain their finaly salary pensions. While they do that they will never be living in the real world with the rest of us and so will never understand what the problems are that we face. How can you change that?
I offer no solutions, but if you can look after yourself, grow your own food, know how to start a fire (literally to keep warm) then maybe you will be okay.
25. malct said...
. Tom101 said...
No access to it. I imagine thats the same for most people. Any other link malct?
Wednesday, March 26, 2008 01:17PM
Report Comment
Sorry Tom your post has just now 10.30pm popped up - same happened to me two days ago - use a password - it works instantly
No access to it. I imagine thats the same for most people. Any other link malct?
here's the original article on sott http://www.sott.net/articles/show/149853-Reading-the-numbers to be fair you should also see S2R's article today where I acknowledge another poster put this up a month ago and got zero comments!!!!
Thanks for your interest - I'm off to bed
26. shipbuilder said...
My 'informed comment' was pointing out that the article, like so many others with NWO nonsense tagged on at the end, completely discredits itself - rather like the DaVinci code, well-known facts are taken and extrapolated to an unfounded and ridiculous conclusion.
I'd like to reiterate a couple of points that disappeared along with the Zeitgeist thread -
Before we get to practical suggestions we need to get over the mass ego-stroking that's happening here - we have not reached some 'new level of consciousness here, we are not a revolutionary few party to secret information. NONE of this is new or a surprise to the 90-odd % of the REAL world that lives outside the middle-class west. We are so insulated here, so comfortable that it takes a drop in house prices and a few financial scares and we panic, as if the world revolves around us. In the real world people are dealing with starving children, grinding poverty and death every day so that we can wring our hands in comfort, their country's riches stolen from them so we can feed our fat faces and drive our big cars. Thankfully charities, churches and the like have been doing work for decades to alleviate the suffering of the REAL victims of greed in our world. Perhaps, first of all, we should take a lesson from them.
The reality is that trade unionists, socialists, the greens and the like have been saying all of this for years, however myself and the rest of us were so self-satisfied and so comfortable that we chose no ignore...no SCORN them for their 'backwardness' and their refusal to 'accept economic reality'. How stupid we look now. You may have heard of Noam Chomsky for one.....he has a few books on this very subject. No-one is trying to 'silence' him. If you really can't believe how something that looks so organised and deliberate could JUST HAPPEN, I suggest watching 'The Corporation'.
We have not been lied to or manipulated - we chose to believe every word - let's not try and separate the nasty, greedy and lazy parts of OUR human nature and pretend it is some shadowy plot not of our doing.
As for practical suggestions - look within yourself and follow the good example of many others that are decades down this path - it will require actual sacrifice and work. Grow your own food, stop working for a faceless shareholder and do something you enjoy, spend less time working and more time with family and friends, give up the idea of being 'rich' or 'successful' as wholly defined in monetary terms, brew your own beer, recycle, buy local - stop going to supermarkets, stop flying, cycle places, build your life around real things and not objects or bits of paper. Volunteer for a charity, talk to your neighbours and start a community. Learn practical skills as well as broadening and deepening your mind.
In other words, re-think and reject everything you have ever learned about what life means in a western economy - these will be the most revolutionary things you can do.
Call me pompous, patronising, preaching, whatever. I don't care. Have I done any of these things? I'm trying, and so are many others. If there is no market for the lies, spin and useless objects that the rich and powerful try to sell us, then they will no longer have any power.
27. george monsoon said...
Maybe I have misinterpreted this whole article, but if you put yourself into the mind of a banker, it makes perfect sense and I think we really are in the sh*t, even if things don't pan out as suggested towards the end, our banking system is on its knees and it is just a matter of time before it goes bang. How long? who knows... Cyril has pointed out that this has all happened before in the 70's. I was a young lad in the 70''s but I remember the power cuts, inflation etc, but back then, the UK was producing food, and manufacturing goods that were sold to the rest of the world. Now we have none of those, so what happens IF the financial market collapses??
I do agree that the end of the article is a wild speculation, but there is an awful lot of fact in the article from which the consequences can only go on way..
scary stuff.
28. planning4acrash said...
neo serf, maybe post a link to it?