Tuesday, Feb 19, 2008
Fitzmaurice, who lives with his wife Rita, 77, in Heacham, Norfolk, owes £1,359 on his 2007-2008 Band D council tax plus £209 bailiff's and court costs. The couple receive £200 a week in pensions.
mail: Aged 76 and in handcuffs: The council tax rebel jailed for refusing to pay £1,483.51
Mr Fitzmaurice, who spent 22 years in the Royal Army Ordnance Corps, had declared in court: "I am here on a matter of principle. The way old age pensioners are being treated is shameful."
Posted by chris @ 08:53 AM (944 views) Add Comment
29 Comments
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1. cornishman said...
From memory, my father had a pension income of around £200/week before he died 4 years ago and his council tax was paid in full by the benefit system. He owned his own house with no mortgage, but had no savings. I imagine that either this guy is 'too proud' to take handouts - or he has a wodge of cash stashed away; which makes him ineligible for benefits.
If that is so, I don't see why other taxpayers should pick up the tab for the services he gets from the council. His house will probably have cost him next to nothing thanks to the inflation in the 70s and his pension will probably be nicely indexed. Don't get me wrong, I do have respect for old folks and value what they have probably done for the country when they worked, but why should young families who are really struggling to make ends meet subsidise this guy?
2. cornishman said...
-not too sure that my memory is accurate now - maybe my father's income wasn't as much as £200/week. Anyone know what the income limit is for claiming council tax benefit?
Whatever, the main point of my argument still stands, why do some older people, who have had many benefits thanks to inflation, expect young struggling people/families to subsidise them? It's quite possible to pay £1,400/year council tax from an income of £10,400 and still live comfortably on what's left - if your house is owned outright.
3. An Bearin Bui said...
I don't have much sympathy either, cornishman - council tax is a rip-off for everyone. The big problem for elderly people is that many of them live in large, high-value houses that they own outright so their council tax bill is the only major bill they have along with fuel costs. That unfortunately is a reality of life. Bills don't stop just because you retire! If they lived in the USA or many parts of the EU, they'd have to pay property taxes which could be even higher as it's levied at a percentage of the actual market value of a home. If you didn't pay property taxes in the USA, you would go to jail as well.
It's rather a pointless protest: why should pensioners be subsidised at everyone else's expense? The neediest already get benefits from the taxpayer. If richer pensioners can't afford the maintenance costs of their large, spacious homes (of which they often only occupy 1 o 2 rooms), then they should sell up.
4. paul said...
Yes, I think I agree cornishman.
It's not as clear cut as that bastion of truthful reporting the Daily Mail would have us believe. WHen he bought his first house (aged 17 no doubt) it would have cost him a year's salary.
Nowadays, it's nearer eight times that. He's had it better than most of us ever will.
5. Safe As A Crash said...
...just pay your bill's and get it over with, no one should get any special treatment ! ...spend less money on wine and siggies !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
6. doomwatch said...
I'm not sure why the articel makes such a big deal of him been ex-forces ?
Maybe this explains his stupidity.
7. wiltshire said...
Good for him I say. There are too many people in this country sitting on their hands whilst this shameful government lies, spins, cheats and steals. The rich continue to get richer at the expense of everyone else. This country was practically on the verge of civil war during the Thatcher years but since Labour came to power we've given up more and more and more ground to the politicans (who can't be trusted to organise a ****-up in a brewery). We've given them an inch and they've taken several miles. They can't even send the British Army into battle suitably equipped. The state of this country is shocking.
I applaud ANYONE who is trying to prepared to fight the status quo (and Status Quo for that matter!!!)
Having said that I agree that others shouldn't pick up his bill but what steps can you take? Labour want to have their cake and eat it, if inflation is so low (for a decade) then why are Council Tax (and all the other necessities) increases so high?
8. drewster said...
I agree with cornishman. Mr Fitzmaurice added: "I can afford to pay it..."
Using the figures provided in the article, this man must have enough savings (in excess of £16,000) to make him ineligible for council tax benefit.
Nevertheless, I don't see why they have to send him to prison. Wouldn't it be easier to send the bailiffs round to repossess his car or some other asset? Or just issue a direct order to his bank? Or issue an "attachment of earnings" to his pension? Or a "charge order" against the property, meaning that the unpaid council tax would be deducted from the value of the house when sold. These and other methods are commonly used by small claims courts to retrieve money owed.
To be eligible for council tax benefit, you have to have both low income and low savings*. For most benefits in the UK, there is a savings threshold of £6,000 - £16,000. If you have more than £16,000 in savings, you aren't eligible for most benefits; if you have between £6,000 and £16,000 then the benefits are tapered. If you have less than £6,000 you receive the full benefit.
The low income test is more complex - it depends on age, couple/single, and council tax band. In this case the couple are aged over 65, living in a band D house, and receiving £200 a week in pensions. They easily qualify for council tax benefit (they would have to be earning in excess of £320 a week to receive no benefit).
Many people think that the benefits and pension system discourages saving, and they are right. The government doesn't actually want us all to save: too much saving and not enough spending is partly the problem in Japan's economy.
(*savings means bank accounts, ISAs, bonds, shares, second properties, BTL, etc. That's the tenuous link to HPC.)
9. cornishman said...
Drewster - thanks for the input on council tax benefit
10. daft boy said...
I belieive that there is an old directive to magistrates to jail people for blatant non payment of council tax and tv licence. This is to ensure the government sends out a strong signal against non payment. Lesser penalties would enourage tens of thousands to do it. It is considered a crime against the state.
11. cyril said...
The council could put a charge on his house and claim the money when he sells it. That's what they do with ex-council flats when the leaseholders refuse to pay the bills.
12. p. doff said...
Not much sympathy here then!
When I was a student I dated a politics/sociology student who was extremely left wing. We used to argue about it all the time.
We stayed in touch and she is now married to a mega wealthy capitalist business owner. Her politics have completely changed, and I remember her quote 'being left wing is fine when you have nothing'.
I suspect some of the views on pensioners may change as people approach retirement age.
13. techieman said...
Drewster - you are right. Council Tax and Pension Credit mean that in effect you are penalised for savings. For example if you wanted to buy an annuity with the proceeds of your pension plan then that goes towards calculation of the remainder of pension credit. You would get pension credit for example if you didhnt pay enough NIC to get a full state pension. Therefore if you dont pay enough NIC (either legitimately or say you were self employed and "forgot"), you would get pension credit to take you up to an minimum amount.
If you private arrangements meant that the annuity from that added to your reduced pension did not get to the level of the pension + pension credit then you are wasting your money by buying the annuity (hence my point about penalising savings). I think if you are on pension credit you are automatically entitled to council tax credit. Add to that the fact that the house isnt included within your "Savings" for such purposes then people are right (although for the wrong reasons) when they say "my house is my pension".
I'm sure we could spend ages on how the benefits are calculated - presumably thats for blogging on another site. But the conclusion remains, saving is penalised in UK, consumption is encouraged.
14. drewster said...
p.doff,
Basically that is correct. The younger & poorer generations are biased towards the left and towards progressive policies, change. The older & wealthier generations are biased towards the right and towards more conservative (small-c) policies.
techieman...
The most skewed part of it is housing. An owner-occupied house isn't considered part of your savings for benefit purposes. A pensioner with an income of £200 a week, £1,000 saved in the bank, and a £300,000 house would still receive full pension credit + full council tax benefit. If that pensioner wanted to downsize and move to a smaller property or even to a "retirement flat" with on-site warden, then the money released would instantly count as savings. The pensioner instantly becomes liable for £25 a week council tax and no longer receives any pension credit. There may well be other services which become chargeable (tv licence?). All told, this acts as a disincentive for elderly people in big houses to downsize.
A better solution would be as per Denmark, where pensioners' council tax accumulates over the years and is paid out in a lump sum after death, from the proceeds of the sale of the house.
15. shipbuilder said...
The sentiment displayed here is precisely why we are in the situation we are in.
Week after week on this blog there are complaints that we don't stand up for ourselves and let the government shaft us, yet when a 76 year old man has the balls to stand up for his morals and the rights of others, we see the real bitter selfishness float to the surface.
If you cannot muster an ounce of support for this man, you have no moral right to the cheap housing you wish for.
16. drewster said...
shipbuilder, What moral principle says "Thou Shall Not Pay Council Tax"? He's not standing up for his morals, he's standing up for tax-evaders. As we've clearly demonstrated, the council tax rules are fair: only those who can afford to pay are obliged to pay. It's not like the poll tax of old, where there was a far greater outcry against it.
The art of taxation consists of plucking the goose to get the maximum of feathers with the minimum of hissing. There will always be some hissing.
17. housing carbuncle said...
This individual should be congratulated for showing herosim against the evil laws perpertuated by this crap government.
18. su said...
I always thought the poll tax was in some ways fairer because it ensured all adults paid an equal share towards the cost of Council bills. Income tax is there to take from the rich and give to the poor, but council tax (so I thought) was to pay for local services in the community. But I'm open to correction..
19. techieman said...
hold on - the council tax rules are not fair, but its the best we (collectively) have been able to come up with - unless you want to support a local income tax, or a poll tax (personally i saw no problem with an amended version of the poll tax, based on everyone getting the same % load per year but the person base being on bands of income...but thats a different story).
There are lots of inequalities in the council tax system but the real issue is the cost. Its the cost that is really unfair to everybody, but the allocation is less than ideal but to make one ideal you would probably be unable to collect it and spend twice the money devising the system!
20. An Bearin Bui said...
p doff: If his protest was aimed more widely e.g. having a council tax freeze for 10 years for all taxpayers because it has ballooned out of all proportion in the last few years, then I would support him. It seems, however, that his protest is aimed at getting council tax abolished for pensioners only and I don't agree with that. Why should pensioners be subsidised to live in large, family houses when hard-working young people can hardly afford to own a 1-bed flat? The pensioners are asset-rich but cash-poor and I'm not denying that is hard but there seems to be very little sympathy for cash-rich (or rather cash-surviving), asset-poor young people whose income is going into the hands of BTL landlords instead of going towards building a nest-egg for their future like older generations, e.g. Mr Fitzmaurice, could do.
My sympathy runs out particularly when the asset-rich expect me to subsidise them. The SNP in Scotland, for example, are planning to introduce council tax exemption for all pensioners to be paid for by a local income tax - so, again, working young people who are trying hard to save for their future are taxed to subsidise elderly people living in expensive homes with savings and final-salary index-linked pensions. Of course not all elderly people are rich but they are a darn sight richer than many other age-groups as they benefited from inflation to wipe out their debts, historically high house prices and final salary pension schemes, which hardly exist any longer.
21. cornishman said...
shipbuilder - stand up for rights by all means. Do whatever you can to stop this bloated government wasting any more of our money. But don't expect young hard working families to do three or four jobs 7days/week to support 'comfortably off' pensioners. Come on.
22. su said...
I gather this guy can afford to pay, but he is trying to make a point by publicising the situation of other poorer pensioners. He took the same action a couple of years ago but was bailed out by his concerned family after serving 3 days of his sentence. I think he is using his previous military experience to highlight his campaign to "fight" for what he believes is justice for pensioners.
23. A Saver said...
I am utterly appalled at the lack of support shown for this gentleman who is standing up for his rights.
A lot has been made of the fact that some of the older generation had the opportunity to buy houses "cheaply"' and are now ''sitting on a lot of equity''. Well apart from the fact that you can only benefit from property gains if you sell up/downsize (and this can be one hell of a wrench, especially in advanced age), what about the interest rates paid in the past? I shudder to recall how my (ex)husband and I struggled to pay interest rates ranging from 8 to 17% - now the gutter press are calling 5% mortgage rates ''extortionate''.
I remember how my father saved like crazy to buy a house when he left the armed forces, only to find that inflation had halved his buying power over a few short years. He also saved into three pension schemes, which now provide little more than a pittance for my mother to live on. However, as she and Dad lived through the war years (no fun at all by all accounts), she knows how to economise and doesn't give a thought to ipods, laptops or exotic holidays.
AS well as inflation, tens of thousands of people have been ripped off by private pension schemes overcharging and/or collapsing since then (including myself and I am not yet pension age). Every generation has been ripped off by the government in some way or the other, but a person who has worked all their life and paid into the system deserves a decent retirement. This crappy country gives the meanest state pension in the developed world. How can they do that after taking 40% tax off you?
24. An Bearin Bui said...
A Saver: so everyone's been ripped off by governments over the years - how does that justify young people subsidising the elderly asset-rich? The sob stories of your parents having their savings wiped out by inflation is being replicated around the country right now as young people who have saved a deposit on a house find that each passing year adds more to the cost of housing and puts their hope of home ownership far out of reach. And don't give me that bull about paying high interest rates - I would LOVE to pay 15% interest on a 50k mortgage at a time of high inflation with my debts being wiped out but I would hate to have to pay even just 5% interest on a 250k mortgage at a time of low inflation. You will be a debt slave forever on those terms. With 15% interest, you know inflation is high so your debt will soon be negligible. Personally I find it morally repugnant that a whole generation of people your age are happy to sit back and make obscene profits from house price inflation at the expense of future social stability and family formation. That's what is immoral to me - not some badly off pensioners paying 1500 per annum council tax.
25. shipbuilder said...
No-one is saying that this man should be supported by anyone when he can pay the tax - it is quite clear that he is making a stand on a point of principle. He clearly has the courage of his convictions to go to jail to make that point - how many here would do the same?
I'll say it again - anything other than support of this man is mealy-mouthed selfishness. Every freedom and benefit we enjoy is still there because someone stood up to protect it.
My grandfather was a business owner and campaigner for pensioner's rights - I know the picture painted on here of comfortable property-owning pensioners up and down the land is utter nonsense and more to do with the 'i'm so hard done by' attitude of many on here.
26. shipbuilder said...
By the way I despise the Daily Mail. It's pretty clear that had this been an elderly immigrant or single mother, they would be screaming for them to be hung or suchlike. It still doesn't detract from the bloke's point, though. What really annoys me, though is that these incidents are just dismissed as 'life under Labour', as if an election will change everything in this country.
27. techieman said...
A saver - you are confusing pensions (which are too small but basically have been and will continue to be - eg scrapping of SEPRS element) i.e. income with expenditure. We alll have parents or relations that are of pensionable age so we can all relate. YES they fought for our right to freedom and YES they deserve to be treated with respect. So yes THEY deserve more money , but then so do single parents so do nurses etc etc. BUT they can't not pay for the services that they use (infact they are likely to use more of them). If this is an issue with pensions then fair dues - i support increased pensions, but NOT them NOT paying their share of Council tax. If there is real hardship they have pension and Council Tax credits as previously discussed. NO one is FORCING them to downsize / sell their homes etc - in actual fact i never knew about the Danish model which sounds good to me.
28. su said...
Pensioners are more vulnerable than most members of our communities. Benefits may not be claimed because of ignorance or confusion concerning filling in the forms. Mobility may be a problem thus forcing the persioner to buy at more pricey corner shops. Dementia may lead to difficulties in managing their finances.
Perhaps the main problem with pensioners is not so much the lack of financial help, but isolation and lack of practical care from their families and communities.
29. Vwtone said...
I was reading this blog for another issues but i was interested by the comments made by drewster and su saying that poll tax and council tax was/is fair. Do they not recall the armed forces having to pay poll tax even though they never used any council amenities and before you say that they may use them I'm referring to the armed forces abroad the name was changed but it amounted to the same tax.Read what Mr Fitzmaurice has said not judge his actions. I agree with him the way pensioners are treated is shameful and he has every right to stand up for what he believes in.