Are there any safe havens to put your money in????

Have any of the banks actually been cautious? Or are the only banks that are safe only for rich people who have very large deposits whilst the masses are screwed?

The global outlook is bleak and the Asian boom looks like it's going to come to a messy end as well.

Are there any little banks that haven't been stupid and don't have leverage?

this is by no way financial advice, its my own opnion and may be wrong

i recon the smaller the bank the higher the risk of it going down as it has less of a cushion to weather the strom. ive just moved my money ot HSBC as they seem to be in a very strong position and IMo the least likly to go under. i was with nationwide, but they really pissed me off

for safety has to be northern rock as all deposits are secured.

No, none of them.

The government schemes aren't safe either as the government is going to collapse and the currency is going to be completely destroyed. Saving your wealth is a total crap shoot. Between the riots, strikes, the huge crime wave, mass unemployment, the state collapse and the decimation of the infrastructure plus the martial law, gold seizures and so on.....no one can seriously think they have a safe haven.

I agree about the comment re: Northern Rock, but given the inevitable risks regardless, always, always, diversify as much as possible. Thats the best you can do.

Yup, people always need houses so get some shares in housebuilders..

No.

You might as well spend your money now while you can - and enjoy it.

Then throw yourself on the mercy of the state along with everyone else.

So basically we're screwed and the money is effectively worthless.

True, but they don't usually bother with Silver.

Maybe investing in one's own and closest family health and knowledge [including finance] is the best safe haven?

you really are a nutter

There's suddenly quite a bit discussion around the topic of banks appearing on the forum today. Here's a link from the telegraph outlining some of the issues:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtm...mbanking103.xml

It's obviously a serious issue since the housing price crash and the banking sector are deeply entwined with each other.

That and in your own logical abilites, thinking skills, emotional development, mental and physical health, yes.

Gold is completely ******ing useless imo if you can't hold a comversation with a complete stranger.

If you open a Swiss bank account you will have some interesting fellow customers.

The tone of your post paints a picture of unequivocal social breakdown, IMO it won't go quite that far. I agree with you but to a lesser degree, but to answer the original question, it depends what you want to be saved from? Banking collapse, then yes some will most certainly survive but at what cost and as to which ones I can't really comment. If you are talking about an inflationary assault on your wealth then no, all banks will be effected. When the media talk about the fear of losing your money in the banking system, they are talking about physically the number of pounds you have in the bank, not the purchasing power of each pound. This is an important distinction, what do you do to protect your wealth?

Another point that gets brushed under the carpet is yes the first £35K (approx) is safe from a single banking group collapse, however this is backed by the FSA that simply does not have the funds to bail out multiple banks and even if it did, how long do you think it would take to retrieve this money, I bet it would at least take several months if not years... Do not rely on this scheme to save you.

Banking system and the state are not society.

They tend to really hurt society once they collapse because at that stage they have taken over too many systems (which is why they collapse.) The classic state model is that of a few courts, a bit of an army, a handful of tax collectors and the odd diplomat. This then expands until it takes over all economic and social life, at which point it completely collapses the host society. The classic banking system is one where peopel know that bankers are fraudsters and watch them closely, but over time they forget about that and fall prey to the various frauds a banker can engage in, the bankers take over economic life - at which point the banking system collapses because they run out of peopel to rob.

Joy of joys, we are getting both at once. Messy.

Society can quickly recover provided that the state fully collapses and the banking system really dies. Depressions up until the statists got involved typically lasted about a year. Once they started to "help" then they lasted years or decades. Usually, private wealth can help in a state collapse and the state can help in a banking collapse.

When both go at one and the same time, who knows?

Let's not forget the Banks' current share price, NR gone, B & B in trouble, HBOS down 75% in 12 months. Couple this with their future inability to generate income from new loans, bad debt write offs, repayment of unlawful charges and loss of income that that revenue stream brought, the City will be scrutinising balance sheets more than ever. Many Banks have large interests in failing projects at home and globally, including EA's and property, and are, in effect, struggling businesses.

They are now crying out for people to allow them to hold onto their money to support their ailing cash flow, and the market to grow their depositor base is becoming fiercer by the week.

Either do your homework, or stuff the mattress.

Presumably the FSA's wheeze of getting the banks to underwrite each other, a la B&B Rescue Mk II, won't work against a multiple hit either.

Which of course is where the taxpayer comes in.

A worrying development for me is the number of 'don't panic' articles planted in the press over the last few days, while this forum could soon be renamed 'bankpricecrash'.

An investor magazine I read the other day had the quote, 'it's almost become politically incorrect to have bank stocks in your portfolio'. Ominous.

At the time of Northern Rock it did not even have the funds to cover a fraction of it's depositors! If I remember correctly they had £1.8B funds available for retail banking for 2007 and at the time a good proportion was used already. Northern Rock was supposed to have £4B in deposits.

http://www.fsa.gov.uk/pubs/cp/cp07_05.pdf

Edited to add more information

I hear uranium is a good investment - maybe it's because the authorities can't sieze it without the police becoming radioactive. Where can you store it though? Lead-lined shed at the bottom of the garden?

Wow, you've united a split infinitive.

Genius

'When both boldly go at one and the same'

Forgive me, but should you not change from 'Neither' to 'Bear'? Or are times now so bad that martial law is the optimistic outlook?

By the way, has anyone noticed the banner ad "Ftsie.com - Double Your Money in Property!" - I can't help but think that Google's targeted ad algorithm somehow chose the wrong ad for this site.

I think that a state collapse and banking collapse is just about the best thing to happen that there could be. However, I also recognise that it's going to be bloody awful for at least a few years while we readjust.

Although I don't subscribe to the total Armageddon syndrome, I find it amusing
The gold bugs think if there will be a total collapse in the financial system, that
Owning gold will save them ?
In the 30’s depression, the government compulsory purchased gold at their price.
If they did it once they will do it again...

The Gov't can't take what it doesn't know you have.

Buy tins of beans and an ak47, yada, yada, yads. Alternatively, put your cash with Lloyds, HSCB or Nationwide and stop worrying. Sure, one of them might go bust and not get bailed out by the government, but then you're more likely to be killed in a car crash tomorrow. Incidentally, in the highly unlikely event of one of them going under and the government not bailing them out, your money won't be worth anything anyway so it's all a bit irrelevant.

I think you should all be aware that Banks cannot lose any money, simply because Banks do not have any money.

Banks like everyone else have debt, and as unfortunate as it is that debts in working class savings and pensions, the smart money moved out of the UK some time ago, around the time Labour won their first election in decades.

Strange as it might seem, New Labour actually promoted the idea of Corporations running their business's offshore to escape high taxation.

Strawman



Propaganda



Not just one of them. All of them. THEY ARE ALL INSOLVENT.



Very much doubt it. Chances of me being killed in a car crash tomorrow must be millions to one. A collapse of the banking system on the other hand is 100% correct guaranteed.



So what your saying is basically don't use fiat as a store of wealth.

Injin, any timescales for your "the end is nigh"?

On a previous thread about "what is reality", It became clear to me that you're losing the plot somewhat.
FYI - You are NOT a persecuted messiah!!! - Hello - re-read that please?

When this predicted "collapse" of yours happens, it will affect you as well.
The fact that you arn't preparing for your great prediction just shows you up as a hypocritical nutter. (it probably means you have to get out of the house)

Sadly, I know what you'll do next though. To keep your fantasy safe, you won't acknowledge anything that contradicts it.
You'll just put it out of your mind and post another useless "Do you agree that I can be arrested for not paying taxes?" question. (There there, that will make you "feel" better).

Seek some help - you're fooling noone but yourself.

Well before Christmas.

"Our" Gov't's ficsal and monetary policy, along with burdensome regulation have made it impossible for our economy to function properly.

The end is only nigh for the parasites. The hosts will live on.

Had to stamp this before you can edit it!

We shall see mr InternationalRockSuperstar, we shall see.

Heh he heh

Yep, already posted them on here. It's hardly "end is nigh" to say that debt that cannot be paid back won't be and that systems that rely on that repayment will inevitably fail, is it?

No debt repayment - no banking system

No banking system = no inflationary funded payments possible = state collapse.



I know. I'm just a bloke.



Already prepared, already stocked up, already sorted as far as I can be. It's such a big collapse that I took time off while there were still things like available regular power.

What? you thought I was going to work for more fiat which I am certain will be hyperinflated or gold I am sure will be confiscated? ****** that, I put my feet up while I can. if I am right, I had time off in peace. if I am wrong, nothing much lost, I just had some time off.



I have as few fantasies as possible. Can you name anything I have written (apart from future predictions which by their very nature are sketchy) that is factually incoreect?



Thank you for the kind advice.

This collapse is real and the reason for it is a societal collapse in basic values and the rise of statism. I write about it here because writing about it for a book, I also think it's important and it fascniates me. The objections you lot throw out help me hone my thinking, so I thank you for proof reading for free.

Yes, it's good to remind us of history. When Britain ran out of money during the war, we paid with patents and things like lease-lend arrangements. Sooner or later, someone will come after Gordon for all that borrowing.

If we have the total collapse that Injin is envisioning then it seems to me that people who borrowed up to the hilt, and then some, might have had the best strategy after all. Possession is nine points of the law and providing one has reserves to pay the mortgage until the merde really hits the fan then the powers that be will have better things to do than foreclosing on people. Its like the man who is so rich that bankruptcy is the bank's problem not his.

We would be in a wartime type situation when government take powers to commandeer things, etc. It seems that the government are already attempting to prevent widespread foreclosures and the social upheaval these would cause.

In effect, people who borrowed up to the hilt have anticipated Injun's scenario and have invested in an asset safer than gold, etc., a house. A good strategy therefore would seem for people who are already in a house to invest their cash savings in extensions, landscaping, and even borrow money to do it.

Alternatively, to sell their own house and buy a more expensive one.

I see your point, but therein lies a problem. The aforementioned er... "total collapse"... actually means a breakdown of law and order, meaning your 9/10ths of the law protecting your possessions = sweet f.a., and that implies that *no* strategy you take now matters (unless you've got a big gun)

Personally I dont think all the banks will collapse. Yes, sure I think the whole system is a disgrace, and I think Injin is right in that yes they should according to the numbers all be screwed, but thats as things stand on the surface and financial goalposts get moved all the time. All that will happen is banks will suffer massive "losses", and the smaller or weaker ones will eventually be eaten up by the bigger ones, or simply discarded. Meanwhile we're going to have a rubbish time of it, most likely comparable (sure ok, maybe worse) than previous depressions. Sure there'll be riots, but I don't seriously think the UK population is going to burn parliament for it. It would after all only make it even harder to buy Xbox games.

If the UK was surrounded by collapsed and failed states (no comment, I rather like creme brulee), I might be a little more tempted to agree the same could happen to us. In reality, the outcome will be far more boring, and a good deal more realistic, and most of us will just take a beating but come out on the other side. Life has a tendency to carry on. Even if our currency collapses, we will just have a new one imposed.

i think you are missing the point.

the question that perhaps has any merit would be to ask which banks are not safe (ie rather than which are). in a fiat system, the only reason any bank would fail is because the government allows it to. i don't think they will. i don't they will because it would undermine broader confidence and create a domino like effect. at this stage of the game, it is much cheaper to rescue each and every bank in turn, as many as is necessary to prevent a general panic.

just a curiosity, you wouldn't happen to be in the deflation camp by any chance would you?

this inflation / deflation debate has been well over intellectualised.

in the end, it is all a question of expedience (political and economic)

given the situation that we are in (not the situation as it might have been had things not been so monumentally screwed up) attempting to stop the monetary expansion would result in total collapse. the cheapest method of keeping the system going is to destroy the debt through inflation (rather than bankruptcy) at least, in this fashion, the system continues to function. the danger is that the currency itself collapses as a consequence - but that is the risk that must be taken.

it may surprise you to know, but i agree with most of the central bank policies being acted now - i cannot fault them, is more correct, perhaps. i only agree in light of the circumstances, even though those circumstances were created by the central banks in the first place. as i see it, it is a matter of survival now.

I have thought that the only the West can complete with the likes of China / India is IF we have a MASSIVE DEFLATIONARY period to bring our wages back in line with theirs. However I realise this isn't that simple as many people now have huge liabilities with mortgages that can only be met with current wages. The only way out of that would be to delete some zeros of what we all owe, so we would still be in debt by the same proportion but just not the same amount. Although this would have to be done for the banks as well, unless of course the bank is to create a new banks?

I've long had the thought that this is a trade war between the US and China. The Americans constantly asked the Chinese to inflate their currency the Chinese didn't so now the US could be revaluing their's downwards. This time they are using the markets to do it rather than the govt devaluing.

However this strategy is not without risk and I'm not sure anyone has really thought this through.

The plan is to let Joe Public go into default via credit deflation but use the printing presses to pay off government debt via inflation.

This will maximise pain for the average person but the bankers do not give two curly turds. Once the bulk of banrupcies and business failures are achieved, then the printing will begin.

100% guaranteed.

Hold your hosses!

As money is created by the government issuing bonds, and borrowing the money into existence, then running the printing presses will just INCREASE GOvernment debt, and therefore the tax take required???????

If you really believe the banking system is about to implode or hyperinflation is coming or whatever then, sure, buy yourself a pile of gold - you might do very well out of it or you might lose a big chunk of money, I wouldn't care to predict which. What I'm saying is that neither of these things are very likely and, in the case that they do happen, you're going to have a lot more to worry about than cash. If you really want to live your life in the eternal expectation of impending meltdown then that's your business, but I'd suggest getting these things in perspective. What's the chance of you being diagnosed with a terminal illness in the next year? What's the chance of one of the institutions I mentioned going bust in the next year? The former is far more likely than the latter but do you have critical illness insurance for example?

edited:typos

Surely if society totally collapses (which I think unlikely, for the simple reason that most people don't want it to happen) then you would be better off with more practical stuff than a lump of gold shiny metal?

Thinking in terms of: food supplies, medicines, guns and lots of ammo, a defensible place, etc etc?

Injin, you have neither the proof nor the evidence to back up these fantasies.
You seem to think that the long term goal of banking institutions is to inflict maximum pain and misery on its customers.
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe we really are living in some sort of "Doctor Who" world with evil "Davros" bankers?

That'll be no problem because all those bankrupt people and their stuff will be collateral.

They are evil ******ing bastards.

Yep you still can't put a timescale on it you sad loser.



Yep agree - but it won't happen. Its never happend before in human history and it won't now. FYI a new state always takes over with its own currency etc



I'm laughing at the idea that you feel protected hiding in your house



Ah. so now we come to the nub of it. You're an unemployed fantasist. A 50 year old financial failure who wants to frighten those that you perceive have been more succesful than you.
It seems to me that you're clinging to the idea that if there is a collapse, it will bring down those who have been more successful than you to your pathetic level of prosperity. Won;t that make you feel better eh? Otherwise why are you banging on about "the end is nigh"


There is no collapse going on - a recession hasn't even started yet. It probably will bu rest assured, the majority of people here will always be richer than you!


HPC posters are giving you all the info you need? You really are a nutter

Sure I do - tax take versus government debt. Borrowing ability versus interest payments. The nice people at shadow stats have done one for the US and we know that the uk is in a worse position. (The worst on earth, actually.)

http://www.shadowstats.com/article/292

http://hf-implode.com/viewnews/2008-06-30_...icCollapse.html

Mr. Mrtgage and co have also done one, outlining the US economic collapse. We will follow.



Nope. The goal of the banking system is to remain in control of economic life in the west. The fact that it will lead to death, misery etc doesn't matter at all to the bankers. it never has. They financed two world wars, the rise of hitler, the rise of stalin, the rise of tony blair the rise of Ronald McDonald*. They really don't care as long as they can do their leechy parasite thing for all eternity.



Well yes, you probably are wrong about most things, you don't seem all that bright or pleasant enough to leanr from anyone else without them giving up on you as a waste of time. The bankers own and control the west in a semi secret way and have for centuries. It's not much of a mystery, really. Now they are losing their grip because a tipping point of awake people has occured.

I notice you avoided answering my other post, so this is the last response you will recieve from me until there is some sort of dialogue going on.








* only Mr. McDonald merits capitals.

How did nationwide upset you then?

Already have, even named the month. See above post for details of where I got the info from.



We don't have a currency, our banking system is a virtual world of numbers. it's a dream and once peopel wake up via the awful mechanism of collapse there is no going back. Every fiat currency has resulted in repudiation and a return to using gold and silver only as currency. Every single one, every single time in history. This then gets replacd by fiat after a few hundred years. I aleady outlined this elsewhere. State starts off small, grows, collapses society, then is back to being small again.

All happened before all will happen again.



That's nice.



Because I hate the statists and I want to see them properly blamed for the mess they have caused. As for success...I don't understand. What does my incredible level of success in anything I have ever attempted have to do with whether my predicitons and comments are correct or not?

It's a logical thing - either the sentence is right or wrong on it's own merits. If I say that 2 + 2 = 4, then I am either right or wrong no matter how much money I have or how well I play football or whatever. I could be a web bot spewing this out at random and it;'s irrelevent to the issue of factual accuracy of the statements and comments.

Pretty poor logic from you. Usually a sign of abuse by one or more parents as a child.



Irrelevent and, in fact, wrong. Have £1,000,000 while you work it out.



Well, as lots of you like to pick at what I say and none of you can find logical holes in it but must resort to childish ad hominems and irrelvent psychologising, I must be onto something. A hostile numpty such as yourself would be all over a factual innacuracy. You can't find any, so you try cheap shots because it's all you have left to do.

Just logic.