So to clarify, the banks are insolvent but also have a surplus of cash?

Yes, of course.

The fact that pretty much all commodities are increasing in price at a rate of >30% pa is a bit of a give away tbh

Is it? How?

Well why do you think paper monies are losing so much of there value in relation to tangibles?

Is housing a tangible? How do you know the commodities price increases isn't yet another speculative bubble and will eventually go pop?

Because an elite group of people have their hands on the printing presses and are showing no self-restraint.

Think about it. If someone gave you a magic printing press that you could use to print £100 or £1000 or even £100 billion at will, could you resist the temptation to use it?

You are right, I just can't help myself.

£1,000,000

Break out the booze and the lapdancers, it's party time on HPC!

Sorry Injin, unless you have a license from the FSA your money isn't as good as "proper" money

So taking the UK for example, how would you measure this?

Sorry Austrian, it has been accepted many, many times already.

Mainly by bankers, rather amusingly enough.

Well up until last year, you could look at M0,M4 etc on the stats section of the BoE website.

However, since Mervyn got his way regarding covert bail outs - fvck knows what M4 really is.

How much do you calculate the bank bail out is affecting M4. The reason I ask is because M4 YOY is 10% at the moment, down from 13%+ a few months ago. Do you think it may go down to around 3% YOY as it did in the last downturn?

If this is true it validates everything you say- can you elaborate on the circumstances in which a lender backed away from a such a challenge?

I take it you're talking about the summer of '93. Notice how M0 went up to ~5% that summer.

As for how much the bailouts will affect M4, N.Rock cost in the region of £100 bil. Bradford & Bingley was certainly bailed out a few weekends ago (see HPC thread on that subject) and that would have cost a lot more. Looks like HBOS is next.

If want a sensible estimate of how much all these bailouts are going to add to the money supply, then add up all the mortgage backed bonds held by UK domiciled banks and multiply it by 0.98 (to account for the fact that they might just about be worth 2% of their 'face' value. I haven't bothered to do this myself but I suspect the answer will be in the trillions rather than 100s of billions of pounds.

One thing's for sure: pound sterling is not a currency worth holding onto!

Sure.

I had credit cards and a loan which I was paying off with HSBC.

I found out about the whole "money from thin air" thing and called them on it, refused repayments unless they could provide proof that cash had changed hands. They tried all sorts of ******** to get me to pay up, none of it worked because I just stuck to the facts and asking for proof.

I asked for -

Proof of money changing hands.

Proof of loss.

Copy of their accounting, showing which account the money came from.

Who specifically the money was owed to...

etc etc

Comments from Tim Cogden on here

http://www.economicsuk.com/blog/000730.html

"A sharp slowdown in broad money growth is now under way. Over the last three years the annual rate of M4 broad money growth has typically been in the double digits. In the six months to May the annualised growth rate of M4 was 10% and in the four months to May it was 6%. Further, Chart 1.18 of the May Inflation Report suggests that much of the growth this year has been in deposits within financial groups, which – like inter-bank deposits – have little wider macroeconomic significance. If these deposits are taken out, the annualised rate of growth in M4 has probably been little better than positive at perhaps 3% to 5% in recent months. With inflation rising, real money growth is virtually nil. (In the year to April corporate money – i.e., money held by ‘private non-financial companies’ – was up by a mere 1.0%. In the last three months it has fallen by 1.9%.)"


Are you sure these bank bailouts circumvents the M4 measurements?

"Bradford & Bingley was certainly bailed out a few weekends ago (see HPC thread on that subject)"

Do we have definitive proof?

The taxman might prefer if at least one of us is licensed by the FSA.

A slowdown in growth maybe, but the growth rate remains positive. And I'd harldy call it sharp. And it doesn't include bailouts.



Well what would happen to an institution that took highly leveraged long positions on UK housing when housing prices fall?

Many of B&B's mortgagees took out 95% or more LTVs and many lied about their income.

B&B is basically a 20 times leveraged investment in UK housing, so a 5% fall *should* wipe them out.

House prices have fallen much more than that already, so the question you should be asking yourself is why does B&B still even exist?

"Many of B&B's mortgagees took out 95% or more LTVs and many lied about their income.

B&B is basically a 20 times leveraged investment in UK housing, so a 5% fall *should* wipe them out."

Can you provide a link to B&B average LTVs? The reason I ask is I seem to recall B&B claiming average LTV was 61%. I think it was on Bloomberg - I will did it out tomorrow when you provide link to 95%. You say a 5% fall would wipe them out (assuming a 95% LTV, which I am not convinced by), but is there a rule that when a typical property is worth less than the mortgage, the owner defaults? Or are you saying that B&B will no longer get funding because their typical customer is underwater?

"And it doesn't include bailouts."

Where is this explicitly stated?

http://www.bbg.co.uk/bbg/ir/news/rns/rnsit...05S&t=popup

Average LTV 61.17%
Weighted average HPI LTV 67.80%

Sure.




So rather than press their case legaly they just wiped the debt?

So in effect all lending based on computer based systems is legaly unenforceable, because there is no way to demonstrate any 'real' money was lent? or is owed?

So why is anyone bothering to pay off their debts?

Because they don't ask. And just as crucually they don't know.

If you were to ask 99% of people who had "borrowed" from the bank did they owe anything they would say "yes" in a small quavering voice. They run around tryng to repay debt that wasn't there with money that there isn't enough of. It's brilliantly evil.

The whole thing is a flimsy fraud.

sfunny, but the credit crunch is supposedly caused by banks NOT being able to borrow from another bank, becuase the lender bank doesnt trust the borrowing bank.

Clearly, as all this is VERY VERY serious indeed, the banks DO beleive that in a lender/borrowing situation, one does owe the other something.

Its strange they wouldnt persue your case.

What claim, made by banks do you consider to be fraudulent? And what evidence do you have that they have made such a claim?

It's caused by the banks refusing other banks credit.

Hence credit crunch.

What is credit?

Those numbers on the screen, which do not have to be accepted. HSBC offers Barclays credit and they say "no." They want cash. Some of the PC screen stuff they are contracted ot have to take - but I am guessing that MBS, CDO etc aren't in those contracts.

i wonder who they mean...

Wrong way around.

I was accused of owing. It's up to them to provide proof that I has a debt, what it's comprised of etc.

They can't do that.

If you accusing them of fraud you are accusing them of "[/i]deception made for personal gain[i]" (Wikipedia) so what is your evidence of this deception?

That they claim that they have lost/made losses when they haven't.

That they claim they have made loans when they haven't.

That they claim contracts have been broken when no contract has been signed.

That they claim that there is an area called "the united kingdom" and that because you are within it, you have to use their money.

And so forth and so on.

You are overlooking the most important thing- the bank did not persue it's claim! This, in effect, is an admission by them that the claim was unsustainable legaly- and demanding money with no legal basis backed up by threats is not a legal activity.

Between Injin and Irwin Schiff, I would prefer to be defending Irwin Schiff and he went down for 13 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irwin_Schiff Irwin A. Schiff (born 1928) is a prominent member of the United States group which refers to itself as the tax honesty movement, and which has been referred to by the Internal Revenue Service and other government agencies as the tax protester movement. Schiff is known for writing and promoting literature that claims the United States income tax is applied incorrectly. He has lost several civil cases against the federal government and has a record of multiple convictions for various federal tax crimes. Schiff is serving a 13-plus year sentence for tax crimes at the Federal Correction Institution at Terre Haute, Indiana. His projected release date is 7 October 2016. Irwin Schiff is also the father of stockbroker Peter Schiff, who is credited as a co-author of Irwin Schiff's 1985 book, "The Great Income Tax Hoax: Why You Can Immediately Stop Paying This Illegally Enforced Tax".

That's a case against the IRS, not a private bank - and they wouldn't let him ask any questions or present a defence.

The judge forbade him from discussing the law.

Rather than fraud, I would say a better argument is coercion and exploitation. Coercion as a consequence of legal tender and exploitation as a consequence of the privileged status of credit issued by banks.

But I belive the point at issue is that the credit issued by the banks has no legal status- otherwise I assume they would have employed the legal system to enforce their claim.

If you look at how systems operate - political etc you will always find that coercion is acquired by fraud.

Charasmatic bloke gets followers who then do his dirty work. You don't see Dick Cheney and GWB punching followers into submission, now do ya?

We do see lots of people who cheer his rhetoric, agree with his ideas and are happy to do some punching for such fictions as "america" "the republican party" "god" "the marines" and other such made up nonsense.

Banking on a day to day level operates on a fraud on top of the coercive system which has bveen created by still other frauds. It's brilliantly evil, as I have said elsewhere. Most people are lied to from birth by their own families* to think that they are english or american or other such rot, the average bod has zero chance of getting out of such conditioning. None.







*Unintentionally, when you don't know the truth you pass on what you have.

My favourite question (and I loved tormenting them once I got going on it) was -

Factually, what did I receive?

There is no doubt as to the nominal magnitude of the loans - but who has decided the value and how was it calculated?

the fact the banks are operating a ponzi scheme isn't that far fetched
it ties in with the fact so many jobs are in the service sector and essentially non-productive, only so long as the scheme can feed and grow. now add to this half of society is employed in the public sector and substantially funded by the aforementioned jobs... adds up to a bag of shite
it's obvious really that the whole thing has become unsustainable
if it was all so great, then why are we running a huge deficit? shouldn't we be rich and kings of the earth?

what isn't so obvious is that this is a good thing because it was taking us nowhere anyway
farming and manufacturing will rebound and the banks will do what they were supposed to do - lend money to finance projects not speculate in artificial wealth that benefited very few at the end of the day

also deflation is the real killer here to the system, it can't handle debt drying up so they're desperate to keep lending going. but they can't inflate without destroying the currency at a time we import much our needs - oops. I believe vast sums of money are being lost right now, way more than admitted and smart money is out of the game.

the shift back to manufacturing won't be easy but the alternative is we become a banana republic of some kind unless you believe the current crisis is containable. there's the rub

ok - none of this will be pretty but I don't like the way things are right now, whatever it means to be british is being undermined and I won't be sorry to see the end of this game, the great thing is we don't have to do anything, just ignore the political shills and their phony rhetoric and watch them squirm

the real cash in hand economy won't ever stop...

Amen.

How does one find the truth Injin?

Farming may be able to drag itself off it's knees, but you may find it's all owned by the likes of Monsanto. Manufacturing is dead with no possibility of recovery; the buildings torn down, the machines sold or scrapped, and the expertise scattered, and where are you going to find the next generation of engineers? Not in our current educational system. China perhaps?

Primacy of the senses over other systems, with logic as a basic guide.

Empiricismi in all things.

One of the most striking things about the education system is that it does not teach people to think- in practice this means that most people's world view is set in stone by the age of 10 and will follow that trajectory unless something fairly dramatic occurs to alter it.

You leave an electronic trail when you buy gold

If you buy over a certain amount (I can't remember how much it is) It has to be recorded.

I don't think Gold is a safe haven unless the whole system collapses. The Central banks control the price of gold. They control the money supply. they control everything!

Gold is only a good investment if the whole system collapses and i can't see that happening.

The coming economic collapse will just consolidate their power even further and we are likely to slide further into tyranny and authortarianism. Gold will never be allowed to replace fiat currency under the existing power elite monopoly.

The only way the system can be challanged is revolution and fundamental change. It's still possible it will happen but my guess is they will initiate WW3 before they surrender control of the global financial system. We have become parasitic. We produce nothing but depend on debt to fund our grandiose lifestyles. The power elite hate us. They absolutely detest America and Britain. We have become lazy, indolent chav scumbags and I reckon they will quite happily depopulate the planet to get rid of the majority of us and start all over again.

Yerrr right.

Savers' rescue plan flawed, say bankers

I wasn't aware of this.

Credit crisis: How safe is your bank?

I assume they are using something like the Halifax index. Did you manange to find your 95% LTV details? Or the proof that B&B was rescued?

FOLKS

Great posts. All the banking flaws have been highlighted.

But are there any banks/building societies / accounts that you thinkare 'relatively' safe ?

HSBC? BARCLAYS? for instance versus HBOS?

I am sure there are a lot of people on here with cash they just want to 'save' at 'low risk' in a bank/building society and wonder WHICH ARE THE SAFEST?????

as far as I'm aware a small percentage of your savings in gold in these times is good, because when currency weakens gold strengthens.

so a 10 stake in gold coins would in theory counteract any losses in the value of your fiat currency savings.

also in the unlikely event of an all out economic collapse could you not use your gold coins for emergency purchases. e.g generator etc.

Finally how in the event of a collapse with the system in tatters and riots etc. going on in the inner cities would the government be able to organise a system that forces people to cough up their gold coins at an unfavourable price. Even so, couldn't you then say that you already exchanged them for an electricity generator?