Hello everyone,

I am new to this forum. Currently I am looking at different property investments, I have made some before, but still my experience is relatively limited. I am posting to a few forums to get a range of opinions.

A friend of mine recommended the Oxford Group. They have an attractive investment proposal on www.OPDF3.com with over 50% return per year, which so far from my various posts (Peter Parfait, SingingPig) have only got positive review from members/investors. Unfortunately it seems they review their investors, do not really advertise and only allow certain investors to get involved in their investments, so it is not certain I can get in.

Does anyone have experience of this group?

Excuses that I am just posting a question now but no answers,
Gerald

Hi Gerard Smenton

Oxford Management have a number of investors that invest time and again with them, but they are looking out for more investors to allow them to raise further finance. I’m confident you will be able to invest.

I invested in OPDF and have acted as in introducer* for friends looking to make similar investments with them.

There are other threads both here on HPC and elsewhere that discuss Oxford Management and their funds. To find them, simply Google my user name and OPDF.

Let me know if you have any questions not answered there.

*I’m not an agent. Friends were looking to make the same investment, so I set up an arrangement with Oxford Management for my commission to be split 50:50 with the investors I introduce.

The Soup Dragon,

Thanks. I have indeed now researched this group, done due dilligence and had answers from various forums where there were positive responses from investors and others. I am convinced this is a good opportunity.

So I plan to invest 200K Euro in this opportunity. Do you mind if I come to you if I have any problems with getting the investment working with the group?

Gerald

Hello Gerald Smenton,

I have some money to invest - can I send it to you and could you invest it in this opportunity for me. Please send me your bank details and I will send you the money.

Hi Gerald

This sounds like a great opportunity after all you can't lose on real estate - it would be great to get in at the bottom of the boom and make some serious money - I have got a sh1t load of cash sloshing about and ploughing it all into this scheme seems like a great idea (thank goodness you've done the due diligence by asking questions on internet forums)
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Hi Gerald

I’ll be happy to help if you have any trouble.

Where are you based? I ask as it is trickier, though not impossible, to get on board if you are domiciled in Ireland. (Someone I introduced for OPDF2 was domiciled in Ireland. Think he was only Oxford Management’s second Irish investor.) Those domiciled in USA are ineligible for the fund.

Which agent did you go through or did you go direct?

If you intend to use an agent then one of your first questions will probably be whether you qualify as a professional investor. They should first find out about your experience of making this type of investment and what sort of things you do / have done for a living that may be relevant. This will allow them to assess which if any of the criteria you meet in order that you be classed as a professional investor. If they don’t do this then they should refer you to Oxford Management. Any agent worth their salt will do one of the above (probably the latter.)

The PM facility hasn’t been working for some time on this forum, but I’m contactable through TotallyProperty and Singingpig. (I’m new to the latter and assuming PM functionality will be available to new members.)

Soup or should I say Gerald - Are you having a discussion with yourself by any chance? - nobody else want to talk with you?

The Soup Dragon
- Originally from Scotland, but now most of the time I am in Germany is that a problem in your experience? I just researched it myself so far, a friend told me about the group. I dont know how PM works (I am new to these forums), but if you can do it and contact me, please do. I am also happy to talk here.

Crashbangwallop
- If you are serious, I am investing myself, but if not, dont you think its worth talking to people with more experience and working with them?

Griptool
- I looked at the previous track record, comments from investors, people involved in their team, current projects, experience in different areas, and so on. Using the forums was part of the work and I got some useful information from here. I'm not a bank or an expert in real estate so I dont have the resources to research everything, but I looked at a lot of points over the past few weeks. Investment groups are recommending 30% of your investment captital goes into real estate (even in the current situation), so I can increase my total still.

Your reply looked pretty ironic, but you are right, real estate has lost a lot of value, so there are a few bargains around in my opinion, particularly in the medium term. When everyone is doing the same thing you are more the fool to follow the herd. When everyone bangs on about the how bad something has become then its worth looking at.

I am not the same person as The Soup Dragon. I am new to this forum and it looks like The Soup Dragon has been around for a while. Maybe I am the same person as you?

Gerald

Hi Gerald

There shouldn’t be any problem with being a Brit living in Germany. I’ve sent a PM using SingingPig. (Say if it doesn’t reach you and I’ll get in touch with administrator there.)

Griptool and Crashbangwallop. I can’t blame anyone for looking at opportunities like this and concluding that it sounds too good to be true. However, if you start to look at how this sort of deal works* then you will start to see how very good returns can be had.

*How value (£) is added at each stage of development. How construction costs are a fraction of final sales prices in much of Easter Europe.

Yes! I'm serious!!! I can clearly see that you have done all your homework and due diligence. What's to lose?!? Send me your banking details and I will send you my money. Together we can make more money than if we worked alone, yes?

Wow!! 2 years and money back !, Ill have some of that, please tell me who to give my money to.

Let me see, £100 investment, 50k a year return, I could borrw that at 10k per year and get 40k for doing f*KK all, sounds dandy to me, Ill come in for 200 large, that will give me a return of £100 grand a year for doing nothing, wayhay I can stop working soon.

Crash-bang-wallop, Loggy,

You dont need to send money to me, I am also an investor. You should send the money to the bank account managed by the fund administrator. You can find this on their site www.OPDF3.com and click on the link 'How to Invest', its in the prospectus.

So far so good! Although the initial expectation was 25%-50%, the first project is over 50%.

Gerald

Hi Gerald

Neither Crash nor Loggy know about this sort of investment and are being a little cheaky. They are applying the “If it sounds too good to be true then it probably is” logic without stopping to investigate how it works or how successful the provider has been at providing good returns for past investors.

I see from another forum that you have now invested. Did you speak to any agents and if so, did you find them both knowledgeable on the fund and helpful?

Sorry guys, you are too late. I met a man on a bus last week and he told me that I could make 100% return every year in his special circumstances investment scheme. There was a really nice shiny brochure and his business card looked really professional. We went straight to the bank and I took out all my money and gave it to him in a brown paper bag. He told me that I would receive my money from his colleague in Lagos in a year's time.

I'm so excited. This time next year I'll be able to retire on my profits. It all checked out and although it sounds too good to be true I'm going to be RICH! RICH I tells ye!

It was a pleasure doing business with you - Anyway my mate from Lagos said, your investment is doing very well, however, if you invest a further lump sum we can quadruple your returns... See you on the bus

If anyone else is interested please be aware this deal is not advertised - we keep a look out for discerning investors on the number 32 to Clapham Junction

A lesson in sales from Shell the Machine Lavine Watch it from 3:25 and then buy the Movie

I had a look at their website out of interest. Being someone involved in the property market I admired their fine words and selling points, but at the end of the day it is all very simple to understand:

They are no more than another development company riding on the economic boom ocurring in Eastern Europe - reliant on the right combination of easy finance, demand and expectations that what has happened over the last 2-3 years will continue over the next few years.

Does all this sound horribly familiar as to what the conditions were here prior to the credit crunch etc, etc, which is now imploding as we write??

Also (it may be in the devil of the detail which I couldn't be bothered to go into - life is too short) the firm appears to be a private one, with probably less safeguards for investers should matters go pear shaped.

The problems affecting us now will move over into Eastern Europe as sure as eggs.

Sure, invest the money on the basis if it goes pear shaped you will be unlikely to see any of it again, and that the advertised returns are not guaranteed at all, and is more and more unlikely to arise. Do they advise how you might withdraw your original investment if necessary? Any restrictions or costs?

Hi CountryBoy

Oxford Management’s developments aren’t reliant on house price inflation to produce good returns. When assessing possible projects they look at costs, risks and income to assess likely return. They assume there will be no house price inflation and no leveraging. They only take on the project where good returns can be had without these. Of course, leveraging can increase the return and that is one of the mechanisms they have to exceed expectations (25% - 50% pa with this fund.) Likewise, house price inflation can increase returns markedly*.

You mentioned being involved in the property market. If this type of investment is something you have experience of then you will be aware that the track record of those running the fund / syndicate is of paramount importance. Oxford Management’s track record is exemplary.

Prior to finding out about Oxford Management I had visited Tallinn twice, meeting a number of smaller outfits doing similar things there. The lack of regulation under which they operated was the key factor for me in deciding not to invest. In contrast, Oxford Management’s latest fund will be listed on the Channel Islands Stock Exchange (where earlier funds are also listed.) An additional safeguard for investors is that land / premises purchased with the funds becomes an asset of the company set up for the running of the fund and is therefore owned by the shareholders (the investors.)

You are right to mention the credit crunch and flagging that investors should consider the impact it can have on their investments. My opinion is that it will have a worse affect on overpriced Fly2Let property aimed at the Brits than on property aimed at the local work force. Oxford Management focus on providing products for the latter and in doing so provide an investment that should be more sheltered from the credit crunch.

Finally, this is a closed ended fund. That means that shares are not readily traded (your money is tied in for the duration – 3.5 years in this instance.) There illiquidity will be a minus for some and a positive for others. (Normal stocks and shares are among the first assets to suffer in economic downturns due to their liquidity – we all need a house to live in, but we don’t need a piece of paper saying we own X shares. In contrast, returns provided to investors in funds like OPDF3 is based on profit made from individual projects.)


*One such project out side of Riga produced 400% return over a 2 year period. That isn’t the norm – the timing of that project was pretty much spot on in terms of getting in and out at the right time.

There is a bit of a track record of Eastern European property development funds and the Channel Islands, I hope this fares better for your sake.... not sure the regulation (er, I think the others chose there because it was loose...) will protect you. I trust you did your research on those and why they went wrong, seems a broadly similar story.

These schemes are not relying on price inflation, because prices are already high, they are based on large inflows of foreign capital chasing an initially limited number of projects. The issue is if the foreign flows stop....

Some might remember the progress of East Germany after reunification - development ballooned, everyone thought they were making loads, then the music stopped, and the excess supply took a decade to sort out. One thing is for sure, you can only get your money out when there are buyers.

Hi Icantbelieveitsn…. good to have your comments.

Regulation: The point I’m trying to make about Oxford Management is that there is a degree of regulation. (There’s none for most funds / syndicates I’m aware of operating in Eastern Europe.)

Regulations are looser in the Channel Islands than in the UK for example. While less red tape is a plus for Organisations running funds, the primary reason for being listed there is tax exemption. (This particular fund is structured in such a way that the only tax to be paid will be paid in countries that the developments take place in and tax is low in those countries. Investors will of course need to pay CGT on their individual profit unless they are using SIPP or similar.)

You mentioned some developers in Easter Europe, that had funds listed on Channel Islands Stock Exchange, running into trouble. Please post links with details of these instances. It’ll help demonstrate that there are risks involved with this type of investment. I hope the links show the merit of investing with Oxford Management (track record) as opposed to other outfits operating in Easter Europe.

“These schemes are not relying on price inflation, because prices are already high, they are based on large inflows of foreign capital chasing an initially limited number of projects.”
I’m assuming from your statement that you are saying prices are high relative to cost of build (desirable) and that you perceive the exit strategy for the development to be selling on to another developer that will build the properties and sell on. This is an option for Oxford Management. Another option is to undertake the build and sales using existing contacts / partnerships that have worked well in the past. Having the flexibility to complete / manage the build mitigates for the risk quoted above and should place Oxford Management in a stronger negotiating position if selling on to another developer is an option being explored.

We are agreed on your final statement – there needs to be an end buyer. As I’ve mentioned before, the target market for developments that will be placed in this fund is the local work force, not the Fly2Let crowd. That should make these developments more attractive than other developments should inflows of foreign capital reduce. I’m aware that demand for affordable new build is high in both Estonia and Romania, two of the markets on which the fund will focus.

Would be quite funny if we are all being ironic in this thread, trouble is I think some are taking it seriously. lol

Loggy. Its fine injecting a little humour into threads, but idea is to share ideas and discuss opportunities. If you have given proper thought to opportunites and ruled them out then you should give your reasons. Likelwise, if people are keen to learn more they should ask. But if individual has nothing to contribute and doesn't wish to learn they would be better taking their remarks elsewhere.

Bugger me, but I could have sworn this was advertising for that business. Certainly reads like it. I didn't know Fubra allowed advertising for free on this site.

Crash Bang, that's the most sensible thing I've seen you post (bar the b gger me part.)

I have always been open about my interests in this group (both as an investor and introducer) and have responded to posts others have made. I welcome views from other standpoints and was particularly pleased when Icantbelieveitsn gave his. He flagged some of the risks that investors should consider before making this type of investment. My response above, though very pro Oxford Management, shows how investors can mitigate for these risks. I hope that people reading the thread can see that.

Hmm, lots of people thought InsideTrack were kosher too ... weren't they in the news today?

Jersey has become a bit of a bolt hole for these funds, and from what I know, I have not seen an exhaustive list, for all the promise and excitement, I am not sure that any have been great recently.

R2R funds in Bulgaria, Montenegro and Croatia have been a really nasty case, just hunt out the Jesey Financial Services communications about that one.....

Another listed last year was Madara, which got an aim lisitng at €1.36, now trades at 86c, so down 35% (and stock is offered only I have no doubt). In that case a reputable valuer with development land, so the promise of the uplift from site value to developed, but the value transferred is in crucial, and you'd need to look at assumptions etc, and check the finance is in place, because without the finance the scheme is worthless....to me, change the country name and it sounds the same as....

I have to ask, given that those who own such assets are trying and failing to sell at deep discounts to reputable valuations, what is anyone doing taking any notice of the valuations, you can buy assets at deep discount if you want to gamble, but the fact that so many (I can't find one that is going up in value or trades in sight of stated asset value) are trading at distressed values, why would you go in at stated value - do you know who the seller is, why he's selling, where his yacht will be moored etc....

I generally feel, when investing, I like to see the value proposition. If something has a compound return of 50% over a multi-year period, it is clearly less cheap and probably not cheap, not attractive if the founders or early investors are sellers, and most unlikely to sustain such high returns....

Crash Bang. To the best of my knowledge Inside Track have never provided funds. They specialised in providing seminars / workshops for people to learn about property investment. They had sister companies that provided ‘investment’ properties and these were punted on through these seminars. I’m not keen on outfits that do this sort of thing and I’m aware that a lot of the issues they have faced recently have been of their own making. (Like selling on ex council tower block accommodation as a high leverage investment when getting a mortgage on the property isn’t possible.)

Icantbelieveitsn… Thanks for coming back on this.

I agree with you on R2I funds. Learned about them perhaps 2 or 3 months ago and few would argue that what the R2I crowd have done is morally wrong. (For each Euro invested some small investors in the fund are receiving only 20% of the stake that some larger investors are receiving for the same Euro invested. This is not the norm with funds and anyone considering investing in a fund should make sure this won’t apply by reading the prospectus for clarity on cost of shares and that no discounting takes place for larger investment amounts. Going with a fund provider that has a successful track record of delivering strong returns also mitigates for this risk.)

I haven’t heard about Madara (I’m struggling to interpret what you have said about them too.) What follows isn’t specifically about Madara, it simply shows how it is normal for the value of shares in funds to fall before value is added to the land that is acquired. Let’s say a fund that was listed on the Channel Islands Stock Exchange 3 years ago has just been wound down. The fund met expectations and delivered 100% profit for investors (stake back + same again.) Here’s how the value of that fund (and therefore its shares) may have looked in the first P&L for the fund:

10m Euros. Initial fund size.
- 7m Euros. Purchase price of land for development.
- 0.5 Euros. Other costs associated with purchase of land and running fund.
+ 7m Euros. Value of land (no value added yet and no house price inflation.)
Value of fund is 9.5m Euros.

In this fictional example the share value will be 5% lower at this point than when acquired. The share value doesn’t increase till the value of the fund increases and that comes through adding value to land. (All the better if there’s house price inflation.) Closed ended funds are not readily traded and so the investor will not realise any gains till the fund pays out.

I think you have gone off on a tangent when referring to distressed sales and finding out more about individual making the sale (reference to yacht etc.) That fits more with people looking to buy in places like Spain. If that is indeed what you mean then I agree with you, but that has nothing to do with Oxford Management’s fund or others like it (unless of course the fund focuses on that area.)

Finally, when assessing funds / syndicates I agree that it is important that those running them have a stake in it and have the same exit point as those providing the capital. That ensures that it remains in their interest to deliver good returns to investors.

You misunderstand me on several fronts.

1. Distressed sales - what I am referring to here is on two or more fronts. Firstly, if you are a keen individual investor in the region, the existing quoted entities trade at a big discount to net asset value, so per you illustration, shares bought at issue for €1 have an NAV of €0.95, but then shares have all fallen and can be bought for less, often a discount of 20% or more. Secondly, there are sellers of such property assets who are stressed, and underlying property assets are changing hands at a deep discount to valuations - if Oxford is buying such assets is not clear, clearly beneficial if they are, and a risk if not.

2. the point on the assets, is that one needs to know where the assets have come from, whether they are transferred in from connected parties, or genuine open market purchases. The reference to yachts was the sellers of property assets to international investors...

3. I note the directors and management do not seem to indicate they will be investors, which is a bad sign. They take 25% of the upside an none of the downside. So the countries could see rampant inflation, but real value declines and they still get paid a profit whilst investors lose money.

4. Buying property where values have soared in recent years tends to suggest much of the money has been made.

But the track records indeed shows the strategy has worked IN THE PAST.

Icantbelieveitsnotbutter: I may still be misunderstanding elements of what you are saying, so I’ll respond first to your points that I’m confident I understand.



The directors and management are investors. This appears on the OPDF website. Having low set up and running costs with directors and management taking most of their remuneration from profits (after successful completion of projects) is a good thing. This ensures as much of the capital raised as possible goes into the developments and provides the incentive for directors and management to see the projects through to successful completion. Some funds run by other organisation require a much larger chunk of capital raised to go towards setting up and management costs as well as taking a larger proportion of profits.

Your first post on this thread mentioned that “These schemes are not relying on price inflation” when referring to returns funds seek to provide. That was correct. Therefore investor returns can still be very healthy with no house price inflation. Projected returns for this fund assume no house price inflation.



As before, healthy returns are not reliant on house price inflation. Their models assume no house price inflation. (House price inflation is a bonus if it occurs.)

Past performance of individuals running funds is key when considering investing in them. But as you have said, past performance is just that. It doesn’t guarantee similar performance going forward.

A further factor which bodes well for investing with them (and is something people should check when looking at funds) is the retention of custom. Investors usually roll up their returns into the next project with them rather than taking the money and placing it elsewhere. They wouldn’t do that if they weren’t happy with Oxford Management’s performance.


I may not fully understand you here, but I’m closer to understanding you than before.
Oxford Management do consider taking over developments others have, so it’s possible that the fund will benefit from acquiring distressed sales.

I don’t agree with your comments about obtaining shares (in funds) at a discount of 20% or more. Closed ended funds are not readily traded. The vast majority of shares in such funds are not traded, the investor waits till individual projects within the fund are completed and / or the fund is wound down to receive their remuneration. Therefore share value isn’t an issue for most unless it reflects the probable remuneration on wind down of the fund. Investors should not consider this type of investment if they are likely to need to liquidate their asset before the fund is wound down.


Assets can be acquired from a number of sources. One of the fund’s directors speaks fluent Russian and this is a big advantage. It allows Oxford Management to swiftly negotiate a deal where others would take longer. (Russians own much of the land / assets in countries that fund is focussed on.)

We have looked at the web site and the full information provided, including Investor returns , Management background and Historical projects.

Can I ask If this is genuine and if there are any Investors on this Forum who have had previous dealings with this company .
Many thanks

Hello Prophet1,

I also didnt know about this group when I started my research.

It turns out that they do not really advertise, but work with a well-known group of investors who roll their profits from one opportunity into the next. They do expand their list but basically via word of mouth from satisfied investors and they choose who invests not the other way around, because they invest largely their own capital. This was pretty good compared to most organistions out there.

I came across a small number of people who have invested with them before (I suppose only a few people because they keep a low profile). Everyone I talked to was satisfied and all the posts on different forums are positive. There are various skeptics posting doom and gloom, but apart from their text which challenges the business model and therefore cannot be proven either way, no one has had a hard time or a bad experience.

As people have posted - a good team, solid performance, good fundamentals and a winning strategy do not guarantee success. But nothing does. All the evidence pointed in one direction and so I put some money in. So far so good. I am not disapointed but its too early to say if the result is good, although looking at their work in the past I have no reason to believe it wont be.

Gerald

Thank you for the reply Gerald May I ask how long you've been with them ? Is there any information that you can send via PM if you prefer , or do we just get the info from the link you provided in your posts.

Thank you

not many people know this , but Gerald Smenton is an anagram of :

Tangled sermon
Mangles Rodent
Strangled omen .

So wil the tangled sermon mangle any rodents in oxford investments