Maybe it is really the right time to buy real estate in Spain now. It seems be crashing recently in Spain. I also want to buy some property abroad as investment. But I always can’t make the decision to buy in witch country. Now I have searched some property in gran canaria property and granada property and I will take them into my account.

The best time time to buy in Spain will be in about two years time. You could always buy a property in Bulgaria or Poland in about a years time. Now is not the right time to buy anywhere - best just to have a holiday instead! Bulgaria is cheap you can find low cost holidays and out of season holidays at hiday.net

Hello buxiangtin,
Good luck investing in Spain. Just a word of advice if you don't mind. I followed your links to the websites that you were looking at. I reckon that you should avoid these estate agents at all costs. The property they are pushing is so overpriced -you'll lose money short , medium and long term if you invest with them. Have another look around. There are some real quality ethical estate agents if you look hard enough.

I am a buyer and an agent and there are still some good investments in Spain but as with all property investment you have to pick the right location
I have bought this year between Aguilas and Mojacar on a new golf developemnt but it is also 100m from a yellow sand beach and the small town
Excellent for summer and winter lets
2 bed apart from 170.300 € all permits and bank guarantee for your money ready circa Jan 2009
I am a Chartered Surveyor and we provide a personal professional service for clients wanting to buy in Spain
also, very good mortgages now available from top banks
Get in touch for more info
rowlandsbb@aol.com
Brian Rowlands BSc FRICS

MORE SPAM PLEASE

Business must be booming if you are trawling sites like this for business! How sad does it get?

buxiangtin won't like you saying that - he owns those sites!

Oh dear, that possibility never occured to me.

This is very sad indeed. These people Spamming should be banned immediately and their IP banned along with it to stop them ever coming back.

The sad thing about Spanish Property is that the market is flooded with W@*kers who would sell their granny to make a quick euro. It really is a minefield.

When you buy sensibley in Spain it is the best thing you will ever do in your life. If you buy on a whim or off of a dodgy dealer like any of the above then it could possibly be your worst nightmare.

For what its worth I think now is the right time to buy in Spain. The key is to find a distressed buyer. There are plenty of places for sale that are still on the market for more than the owners paid just a year ago, the key is to find someone who paid £30k 10 years ago for a house or flat that would now be worth £300k. If you offer £150k you could find that they go for it and you will have bought somewhere for half its value.

I think you are right here. There are plenty of ex-pats who bought a while go who are now desperate to go home. It gets to the point where any offer would suffice - although the one fly in the ointment is the seller has one eye on property prices in the UK.

I know several couples who have had houses on the market for two years now. I'm certain one or t'other would sell for a lot less than the asking price just so they can move on.

I have lived and worked in Spain for 11 years now and seen the good and the bad times in the housing market. In 2000 I bought a four bed detached villa for 50k€ and sold it 16 months later for 285k€. This was not on the coast it was in a 'white village'. I am a property broker, mostly selling outside Spain to investors, but a house I sold in Andalucia last week was sold 40k below the asking price of 155k€! Poor vendor I hear you cry! I might have agreed with you until I saw that he payed 39k€ just 7 years ago and has left the house empty since then!

The moral? Spain is a buyers market and it will recover in the next two to three years; its a good time to buy now and be prepared to wait. Some people made a lot of money after the last so called crash and there are plenty of people still doing it. What's different this time? Banks are falling over themselves to lend money and you can now get up to 10 years interest only.

In my opinion there has never been a better time to buy in Spain.

has never been a better time? the year 2000 sounds like a much better time!

Only someone selling property could come out with a line like that. And it's total nonsense as you well know.

I'm afraid I have to agree with Sharpnose and I dont sell property for a living.

Now is a great time to buy property in Spain. Bargains can be had in most resorts but tread carefully and take long hard look at the area. I have never seen anybody desperate to sell who doesn't live in the Costa Blanca. Make sure you either pick unique inland towns or coastal areas (and I mean less than 1km from beach). A lot of people hype up the crash in Spain but when I have been over there recently I have seen very little evidence. Sure the number of buyers is down from the extraordinary boom years of 2002/2003 but the good developments are still selling out within weeks. The oversupply mainly exists because Spanish developers tried to cash in by buying cheap land away from the coast (2km+) and building apartments which they then tried to charge silly money for. The profit attainable was unbelievable. These flats can be sold on for £50k and the developer will still be quids in. These undesirable properties will come down from their stupid high price and become dirt cheap holiday homes and it will give the impression of a crash. Those places in the desirable areas rarely come up and when they do expect to pay a high premium.

Sharpnose, you're an estate agent, and you want to earn your commission -fair enough -but you are spouting total bulls**t.

"Spain ... will recover in the next two to three years"
Says who? Any credible independent expert? In the USA they are buckling down for significant decreases in value over the next two to three years. This is what the US media is reporting. We will follow them. Spain will be cheaper in two to three years time.

"its a good time to buy now " -apart from your estate agent / developer friends no-one is saying this

"Some people made a lot of money after the last so called crash and there are plenty of people still doing it."
Anyone who has bought in Spain over the last five years will now be selling at a loss. The only people making money are estate agents -I was going to add developers but most of them seem to be facing financial difficulties.

"Banks are falling over themselves to lend money"
Did you hear about the credit crunch? This statement is blatantly untrue.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/arti...in_page_id=1770
"Third of mortgage applications denied in past six months"

"you can now get up to 10 years interest only."
I find it morally objectionable that you are endorsing interest only mortgages.
Still, never let truth get in the way of earning a commission.

"In my opinion there has never been a better time to buy in Spain."
In your dream world maybe.

AdiBrown, you may not sell property for a living, but your soundbites are borrowed from some estate agents manual.

"Now is a great time to buy property in Spain." -says who apart from your estate agent friend? Name a reputable, independent expert who says that buying in Spain now is a good investment. Because every single article that I have read which is not sponsored by the building industry says the opposite is true.

"Bargains can be had" -you can certainly knock 20-30% off the asking price and some sellers will accept but does that make it a bargain? In comparison with house prices in the USA, Spain is still very expensive. & America has an efficiently working, modern housing market, completely different from the fiascos and corruptions which are everyday practise in Spain. (Tell an American, or even a Brit that it takes on average 3 years to sell a property in Spain and they look at you like you're telling a tall story)
America may or may not be the best comparison with the Spanish market but it still proves your talk of bargains to be absolute rot.

"A lot of people hype up the crash in Spain but when I have been over there recently I have seen very little evidence."
Here are the facts. Prices are 20/30% lower across the board on the CDS in REAL terms since the 2002/2003 high and still not much is selling. I live here, I am not a holidaymaker/tourist like you.

"good developments are still selling out within weeks"
An absolutely outrageous claim. So you walk around an empty development and believe it when the agent tells you they have only a few properties left," so buy now to avoid disappointment"
Even Sharpnose didn't dare to claim that "some areas are still selling like hotcakes" I don't know -maybe he's kicking himself for leaving that old chesnut out.
With that statement you lose all credibility.

"The oversupply mainly exists because Spanish developers tried to cash in by buying cheap land away from the coast "
So why are the developments on the coast half full at best?

"Those places in the desirable areas rarely come up" Let's take Sotogrande as an example of an alledgedly desirable area on the CDS. I think it would be fair to estimate that half of all property in this ghost town is up for sale.

"expect to pay a high premium" if you are determined to p*ss away your life savings. Otherwise offer at least 20% below the asking price. If they so no then move on to one of the many millions of properties on the market.

To Forestfire and Margesimpson I agree with most of what you say; as an investor wanting to buy off plan and flip I would not come near Spain for a good while yet. My comments were referring to the 52% of buyers from Northern Europe who still choose Spain as their ideal location to retire to or for a second home; as you well know there are great BMV deals to be had from the many expats whom are finding their properties worth a lot less than they paid and are looking to move elsewhere where inflation will not eat up their pensions quite so quickly as post euro Spain does. I may be an agent but I mostly sell in emerging markets; if I had stuck to Spain I would be one of those on the next flight home!

So far as the banks are concerned there may be a credit squeeze and, yes interest rates are going up here too, but banks make money by lending and they are all happy to compete for lucrative mortgage business - walk down any High Street and ask!

The number of Northern European buyers who buy in Spain for a second home is very overplayed by the media. In the first quarter of this year, only 2,596 properties were sold to non-residents in the whole of Spain. The reality is they are no longer buying in Spain in any numbers. Like you they are going elsewhere.

Compare that figure to the 630,445 housing units that have been started during the last 12 months.

It is sheer madness to suggest that there has never been a better time to buy in Spain. I don't think there has been a worse time. And the property developers and those committed to buy here can kid themselves all they like, but that's the truth.

ForestFire – out of your 21 posts all of them are identical, talking of a crash in Spanish Property and using the same stale arguments. I am guessing from the content that you live in Spain, would like to buy but currently rent. I can sympathise with this position as I am doing much the same in the UK. I believe prices will fall by as much as 30-40% in the UK over the coming years and that is why I will put forward a bearish argument on the state of the UK housing market. I assume you feel frustrated at high prices in Spain and wish the market would crash as you predicted was happening back in November 2006 when you first came to this board. Unfortunately I think the two markets differ quite substantially and you may find the whole UK market crashes whilst the Spanish Market drops unevenly according to areas. It would be unfair for me to simply make this comment so let me explain my reasoning behind this and also dispel some of the myths often repeated on this board:

• Unfortunately some people are quite new to Spain and therefore get a little confused. When I first visited Spain in the early 80’s vast areas along the coast consisted of “ghost town” developments. These urbanisations were literally less than 10% occupied. The reason for this is very straightforward. For years the Spanish have purchased holiday homes on the coast. These homes are then visited in August and other holiday periods. So for 10 months of the year the shutters come down and the apartment/villa is left empty. British, German and other Europeans also have done the same so this is often the reason why in off peak times these developments look unoccupied. Go into the local town and the streets are bustling with markets and people watching the World go by. Often at peak times/weekends the population of an area will quadruple as people come to stay in their holiday homes.

• The number of people buying in Spain is often underplayed by the media and the official figures paint a different picture to the reality. Close to 2 million homes are owned by UK ex-pats or UK residents. Figures such as 2,596 non residents buying in Spain hide the true figure of around 20,000 sold to foreigners (resident and non-resident) in that same quarter. That constitutes around 80,000 homes per year….in a so called crash!!!!!!!!. What tends to cloud the argument is the fact that many people will either buy through Spanish trusts/offshore companies to avoid tax or become residents to decrease their CGT tax burden. Unfortunately certain people will make stats look as they please because they are trying to talk down the market. These are often people who live in Spain but currently rent, frustrated that UK residents are still buying property and keeping things buoyant.

• Spain has always had a four tier property system. To understand this is to then start understanding the way the market works over there.
The first Tier of property is often called “first line” but more recently a few golf/leisure developments can be included (although only about a desirable 5%). These properties are the ones within a few minutes (500m) of the sea whether that is beach, marina or fishing town.
Second Tier properties are those that are classed as being in a resort but can often mean walking for 5 or 10 minutes to get to the beach/harbour/town centre.
Third Tier properties are those inland. These rural properties are often in a distressed state or a new development offering very cheap houses with land. This tier also includes the popular apartment blocks seen in inland towns populated by the majority of Spanish locals.
Fourth Tier properties are City properties. These are expensive apartments or houses that are within a 10km radius of a City Centre.

So in Spain at the moment the majority of first tier properties are still hard to come by. These properties are often priced to reflect this demand but supply is restricted. These are the properties literally selling like hot cakes. I know because this is the type of property I am looking to buy at the moment and I simply cannot get my hands on anything.
Now where the problem exists in Spain is in the Second Tier. Go a mile inland and you are confronted by millions upon millions of acres of scrubland. Very much like Australia, apart from a few areas Southern Spain is built on the coast. So when a Developer approaches a farmer and offers to buy 30 acres for £100,000 the farmer snaps his hand off. The developer then builds 200 apartments, builds a couple of pools and landscapes the land around the complex and starts selling them for £100k a piece. Because of increased demand and therefore prices for first tier properties this was a lucrative business for Spanish developers. They soaked up all of the disappointed Brits who expected to buy first tier properties with their MEW money (old 1999/2000 rerun episodes of Place in the Sun were to blame). These Brits flew over in their thousands during 2001/2002/2003/2004, newly acquired equity in their homes was burning a hole in their pockets. So there they were with £100k to spend and they were herded by the big Spanish EA’s on their “inspection visits” to these two tier developments. They were in the sun and they had a pool and they were only a short drive from the beach and the town…may be even a 15 minute walk. So they started buying. Some of the more ambitious developers such as Polaris World even went to the lengths of building golf courses to attract people away from the “first tier”. It was a great success but it of course had a limited life span. Soon the Brits with their equity money would slowly dry up and worst of all these Brits had this obsession with making money so they all expected to get some kind of huge return on their property. As a result they expected every new phase and every new development to be 10%+ more expensive but the Developers knew this would soon price people out and decrease demand even further…..after all the whole idea was to offer a cheap alternative to “First Tier”. Anyway the scenario has played out as predicted, their now lies 300,000 of these second tier properties and a bunch of Brits trying to sell. Slowly and surely these developers are disappearing and the building has stopped. The second tier is no longer a gold mine but a money pit. Expect up to 30% falls on some of these developments. Some developments offering exceptional views or facilities may retain their value.
Third tier properties have been blighted by the increasing number of Brits buying up barns and outhouses for £30k believing they have bought a bargain. The business of renovating these and then selling them for £80k is still ticking along but has dramatically slowed in the past year or two as this money moves to Eastern Europe. The people paying £30k - £80k are now looking in Bulgaria and Morocco. As for apartments within towns these are still fairly reasonably priced but because of increased immigration of South American farm workers wages have been depressed and this makes it quite difficult for people to afford £60k - £80k in Spain. These properties will drop by 10-20% and improved labour/wage conditions promised by Zapatero should help bridge the remaining gap.
The fourth tier is complicated. It is over priced at present and will be the most likely sector affected by the credit crunch. Like the UK people have over stretched and many of these were not in a position to do so. I can see 15-20% falls in this sector over the coming years.

• The majority of Spanish Property is still very cheap in comparison to other areas of Western Europe. OK so some areas of the Coast are very expensive but still affordable even in those areas that are highly desirable. 4 bedroom detached villas with a few acres can still be picked up for less than £100,000 in most inland areas. 3 Bedroom houses literally on fantastic sandy beaches can be picked up for £200,000. This doesn’t strike me as over inflated when 2 bedroom terraced houses in the worst parts of Salford are selling for £150,000.

• Spain in the new millennium is now a developed country. Spanish motorways such as the E15 are the best in Europe. The high speed railway network can transport people in luxury between Seville, Madrid and Barcelona within a few hours. This high speed network is now running along most coastal areas opening travel to millions. Flights to and from the UK can now be purchased for £50 and take only a few hours, it can sometimes cost more and take longer to travel from London to Newquay.

• With the popularity of Spain increasing for British people and new EC regulations opening borders employment opportunities are exploding in Spain. Contrary to popular belief wages are pretty good. There are also increased opportunities for home workers with Telefonica guaranteeing ADSL to most homes with speeds up 16MBps available. People such as Radio 2 producer Andy Davies (works with Jonathan Ross) commute weekly from Spain.

• The majority of UK buyers aren’t buying in Spain for investment purposes. More importantly the people I know didn’t buy expecting huge price increases. Unlike a BTL buyer who buys a 2 bed flat in Bedford when you cant rent your flat out in Mojacar you can go and holiday there for a few weeks yourself or even treat a member of your family. The majority of flippers left the Spanish market for Morocco and East Europe back in 2004. What this means is that fewer buyers are distressed and the rush for the door is unlikely to happen.
In the UK the market has been fuelled by greed and BTL investors and whilst Spain hasn’t been immune to this the majority as Sharpnose quite rightly points out are retiring to Spain or simply looking for a holiday home. They don’t care too much about the price because it doesn’t affect them and if they can’t sell…well it’s a hard life having to wait a year or two in the Spanish sunshine ;o)

• Although it seems as though building work is taking place everywhere in Spain there is of course a limited amount of land available along the coast. With the glut of baby boomers approaching retirement age and the majority determined to retire abroad with Spain the most popular destination it seems like a pretty safe long term decision to buy property on the coast. Note also that the Germans were once the biggest group of foreign property owners in Spain – their economic crash means they have been out of the market for at least 10 years. Any recovery in the German economy may mean demand is increased even further for good quality coastal properties.

• It is impractical to expect people retiring to hang around renting for 5 years. People retiring want to lay stable roots in a community when retiring abroad. Security and stability is very important when moving to a strange country and this isn’t provided by renting. I know from experience that should you buy in the right area you can sell within weeks (being realistic on price is also required). Sure some people have been trying to sell for months but visit these houses and you will see why. A lot of people assume that their house has doubled in price or they have bought in an area which offers nothing special to the purchaser.

So as I mentioned before I think some areas of Spain will drop 30% and others will continue even increasing slightly MoM. Take a good look at the market and think about the location. Location is key in Spain..I don’t mean resorts but location (Distance from coast, amenities, town etc). In other words you could say to me “I have seen a load of empty properties and there in the popular resort of Sotogrande”. What you fail to say is that they are 5 minutes out of the town centre. Think of the worst case scenario should you have to return to the UK and rent it out.
I remember reading on this board somebody saying you can get a bargain from a distressed buyer at any point in the market and this is so true. If you want to buy a property in Tier Two then definitely wait if you can’t get 20% off. If you’re looking to retire to somewhere on the coast and you have the money to buy then I would advise you do so if the opportunity is available. Just make sure you do your research.

Some of the people on this forum have been saying Spanish Property has been crashing for 2 years now. I went over there the other week and I can't see any evidence of it whatsoever and in fact I am faced with quite the opposite. In the area I was looking I held back on a development thinking a bargain may have been had and then was told they had all gone. I of course thought this was a sales tactic and waited for the "ooh we have just had somebody drop out" but it never came. I could kick myself now for not being more reliant on my own eyes rather than random newspaper articles and posts on here. Just remember "oh in some areas things are actually OK" doesnt sell papers. Pick out the odd case of misery and magnify it 500 fold to make it even more dramatic. Then throw in some random figures that you have manipulated and hey presto everybody wants out of Spain and the whole economy is on its knees. The truth is out there...go and take a visit for yourself and see things with your own eyes.

Hi Adibrown

Whilst I don't agree with everything you say (where can you buy a front line beach villa for 200k? - I have a client waiting!!) there is a lot of truth in the majority of your thinking. If you have a desirable property in a sought after area you can still name your price. A very good friend of mine bought a villa in Sotogrande two years ago overlooking Valderrama for 4.5 million€ brand new. He turned down an offer of 12.5 million Euros from a client of mine just last month - the bank valuation is 17.5 million€!!
There are always clients for the right property..

The problem with so many of your posts is that you make up figures to suit yourself.

The above is total nonsense - as you probably are well aware. At least when I quote figures they are accurate - not made up to impress the naive.

Then there's the generalised rubbish about Spain being the land of opportunity, etc., Tell that to the 10% unemployed and the thousands upon thousands of illegals immigrants living in squalor. Or indeed a good number of Brits who live in poverty in the sun.

Of course there will always be highly desirable properties that will always be in demand. Tell us something we don't know.

But that doesn't take away from the fact that for the vast majority of people now is not the best time to buy in Spain.

I'm not sure what your motives are for ramping Spanish property, but you are flogging a dead horse. Prices are falling, the market is saturated with unsold properties (ten times as many as one of your previous posts claimed) and the only way is down.

Well I wrote my last post in annoyance at the flippant catch phrases and no substance posts by EAs -I guess that in Adibrowns essay response I got what I deserved.
However AdiBrown you have the cheek to call my arguments "stale" and then really let your self down with the "selling like hotcakes" cliche. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

I rent in Spain (correct) but I do not want to buy any more.
This is because Spain is not a modern economy.

Just look at the corruption in the property industry, from the judges, politicians, developers, to the rogue EAs. There is
a reason why Europe looks to Spain to launder it's money. (I will never get tired of using White Whale as my reference.)
On a personal level, the last straw came for me six months ago. I tried yet again to buy a house. When I showed a strong interest the price went up dramatically. Everyone was outraged at the misunderstanding. I can reference the price that I "misunderstood" as it is still on the EAs website.

These shenanigans that seem a part of doing any sort of business here resemble those of a third world economy.
As for infrastructure, I am fed up with the lack of it. I have lived in expensive and cheaper areas and in both the basic neccessities cannot be relied on. I've got so used to the regular gas/electricity/water cuts. My phone was out for 10 days in September. My 1 meg internet line is the same speed as dialup in the UK.

Also, if this was a modern economy then where are the industries and the jobs? If you're not in building or tourism what can you do on the CDS? Be extremely wealthy or retired is the answer.

In specific reference to your post;
I don't see the CDS getting busy even in July or August. I would estimate that the best built, most popular, frontline developments get 50% occupancy in July & August. The roads / restaurants / beaches haven't been busy since I've been here.

A crash refers to movements in price, not in units sold
& this is what we've got to look forward to http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...&refer=home

I think this "buy the right property in the right area" argument is overplayed. If the market is going down, or up for that matter, practically all property is following the trend, by different degrees true enough, but lets not overplay these small differences.

I would have bitten off your arm for a 3 bed villa on a sandy beach in the CDS for £200k.
In my part of the world, your prices are way off the mark, maybe you're missing a zero? I look at prices here and think there is better value elsewhere.

The German economy recovered a couple of years ago didn't it? Along with the story about a CDS EuroDisney, the EAs have been peddling the "fact" that the Germans are back for the last few years.

I don't recognise the Spain that you talk about AdiBrown, and I live here. You appear to have a vested interest in talking up the Spanish property market. I couldn't care less. I rent cheaply and six months ago decided that I did not want to buy and would move on in the next year or so. If the market rises or falls it really makes no difference to me financially.
I have never said that the market would crash, just that it is already 20-30% lower and that the crash is a highly plausible scenario. Does it matter how old an argument is if it's still valid?

I moved to Spain to improve my quality of life. I made a mistake based on superficial misjudgements.
Spain might look and smell like a modern economy, but it is not and unless you're extremely wealthy or retired the standard of living is lower. Hopefully next time I'll get it right.

The property market in Spain is flat as is most of EU and UK
The overseas buyers are a small % of the overall buyers in Spain [ surprise, surprise!!!] and very few have to sell
It is certainly not a market to 'Flip' and in fact most developers will not allow the old system...you have to complete and then sell on....no just changing the name on the contract!
There are some good buys if you are selective as there is in UK and an experience investor will be able to complete and move on in his own time to catch the right time of the market
But ' the majority of northern EU buyers in Spain are buying for a Life Style Reason and if in due course [ as indeed they will] they have a nice capital gain in the medium term, it is a bonus
This is why in good locations people are still buying
One other point. in the right locations the developers have already sold most of their properties off plan so when the market slows they delay the second phase....same as in UK
so buy for investment only if you know what you are doing and buy for Life Style in the best locations
Brian Rowlands BSc FRICS

On last night's Channel 4 programme "Selling Property Abroad" it was apparent that in Almeria, at least, ex-pats can't give their property away. One agency (seemingly run by two totally inept women) had 900 resales on their books which they weren't even bothering to actively market.

It was also interesting that the presenter stated that last year construction started on 700,000 new properties on the Costas; add those to the hundreds of thousands completed but unsold new properties and the plethora of resales, and the only case you could make for buying is for personal use; and then only go for a resale to get best value for money. The Spanish coast certainly doesn't present itself as an area for investment.

Builders in California are offering $200K discounts for $400K houses in not so great areas, 50% reduction. And nothing sells.

When builders in Spain start doing the same in not so great areas, then the market might move again. Until then...

Radio,

Which part of Almeria was it as that´s where I live and I missed the program? Your summary seems about right as I just taken my flat off the market with one agent due to one viewing via someone else in a whole year! Fortunately, I don't need to sell it at the moment but from the amount of closed agents I see, I would say the market is dead.

MIS

Brian, you make some good points, BUT if I was looking to buy today in Spain for a lifestyle reason, wouldn't it make more sense to rent or put off the purchase for 12-24 months to see how far the market falls ?

Also, these buyers in today's market who will make a little profit in the medium term ? Can you define medium?
Because if I'm 55 and buy today, it might be a 5 year drop and a 5 year rise (or more) just to get back to where we started. By this time, the owner could have kicked the bucket

I agree people will still buy good property even in today's market. I suspect it will be the rich end of the market who need little or no mortgage and can take a 20% or more drop in prices. The likes of Joe and Sandra MEW'ing from their UK house for their place in the sun is over, or almost.......

MIS,

It was Mojacar. You were lucky to get one viewing - the lady featured hadn't had any in 12 months.

I was in Almerimar in June and the only change from 6 years ago was the huge increase in supply of unlet flats and shops.

Oh yes Mojacar! Each to their own etc, but it´s a bit of a British/Irish ghetto, so it's no surprise that there are no sales. There are no new British/Irish buyers and the Spanish certainly won't buy there.

Almerimar is a strange place. They put in a sporting harbour and golf course and then built loads of overpriced flats around them. Busy in the summer but dead for the rest of the year and it's miles away from the Airport too.

The programme did make the point that sellers were reliant on the ex-pat market, as the Spanish had no interest in such properties. I think this is the case wherever, be it Spain, Turkey, Bulgaria etc. All these so called 'investmemt' locations are reliant on ex-pat buyers and that particular 'boom', fuelled by people re-mortgaging their ppp is well and truly over.
In the current financial situation there won't be many taking on extra borrowing. Polaris World can spend as much as they want on advertising their willingness to make property affordable (their ads on Spanish TV actually seem to quote lower prices than the ads in UK), but I think the market is static.

As for busy in summer, well where I stayed the hotel was full but the area was dead.

More Trouble In Spain.......


As you may know, the property market in Marbella has been in the doldrums for a number of years. As a result market prices are back where they were 3 or more years ago, even if official figures suggest that prices have been steadily rising, albeit at a lower rate than before.

Official figures are notoriously unreliable, and everyone knows that they overstate prices.

The scandal is that tax officials in Marbella appear to have started fining buyers for under-declaring (paying part of the price under the table in cash) even if they haven’t. If the tax office thinks that the declared price is too low, they fine the buyer.

So if you do everything by the book, declare the full price, and pay all your taxes, you might still be fined. All that matters is the price the tax authorities believe you should have paid, which might well be above the price you actually pay. A classic catch-22: whatever you do, you can’t win. Heaven help you if you find a real bargain.

http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/propertydispatches/


And Brian, before you pop up with your "lifestyle choice" arguement. No one is denying that people move to Spain for the great lifestyle.

However, it makes NO sense to buy in a falling market.

The greatest decision I ever made was not to buy in Spain in 2005, I have since rented a 2-bed apartment on an established urbanisation for €550 per month.

This means:

No dealing with crooked estate agents
No dealing with lying developers
No dealing with corrupt lawyers
No risk of buying an illegal property
No chance of a land-grab
No 10% purchase costs and taxes
No upkeep costs
No chance of negative equity
No problem if I need to relocate
No costs to me when something goes wrong with the flat.
Renting is half the cost of buying

Even if I won "El Gordo" tomorrow, I wouldn't dream of buying a property in such an utterly corrupt country as Spain

Unfortunately, you are looking at it from an anglosaxon viewpoint. In latin countries, people don´t believe any of the above is wrong! I´ve finally come to realise this after living here for nearly 18 months. Their view is everbody tries to cheat each other so you are stupid if you don´t. This is why so many Northern Europeans come unstuck here, beacuse they think the rules are the same in their own country - they are not!

One final point. Spanish law is not based on the same tenets as UK law i.e. precedent. If there is a law they don't like, they just write another one to replace it, if it comes from Madrid and ignore it if it comes from Brussels!

markinspain - with respect I think you are being a bit unfair and stereotypical in your views about Spanish people and the way of life and of business. My perspective comes from my childhood background in a small mountain village in Spain. There are a great many 'sharks' and nasty people in Spain, particularly in property development - just like most countries. Spanish people, generally (certainly not all - like in all countries) do actually have a very strong sense of honour and sense of fairness and of right and wrong. Many Spanish people are absolutely disgusted at the sharp practices that have been used to raise property prices to ridiculous prices and have in effect priced out a whole generation (although prices are falling in many places now). Look at the graffitti in most towns and villages about property development/prices. There is a great deal of anger around. It is not only the economics of the situation making people angry but also the huge amounts of environmental damage being done for the sake of making a small number of people very rich (which has included corrupt Town Mayors). Many people I know say with dismay that Spain is being turned into basura.
I agree that the rules and culture are different in Spain and that many Northern Europeans don't understand this and make mistakes accordingly. However, I don't agree that Spaniards generally accept that it is ok to cheat, lie and so on - as I say there is a very strong sense of honour and honesty is (generally) actually valued very highly in Spain.
If people make friends with local Spanish people and attempt to learn and use Spanish, and whichever local dialect/language is the norm in that particular location, and they respect the local customs and culture they will find that if they are wronged/cheated by someone or some organisation the community will be right behind them supporting them to have the situation 'righted'.
Of course I have accused you of using stereotypes and then replied by using generalisations myself but I hope you see that I am trying to temper some of the things you have said rather than trying to totally undermine what you are saying. I do agree that there is a huge problem with corruption and sharp practices in the property markert in Spain - I don't agree, however, that Spanish people just accept that this is normal business practice or way of life.

Just wanted to add - that if you attend any of the 'land-grab' demonstrations you will find a mixture of North Europeans and Spanish people there. Also there are whole villages and Towns that have fought against large property developers from 'grabbing land' and building enough property to expand the village or town by 3, 4 or even 5 or 6 fold. Many Spaniards are disgusted at the corrupt Mayors and Town Halls and of course the developers themselves.

Alfie, that's priceless:


.......Mr Serón was arrested on the 18th January along with Urbanisation councillor, Gregorio Guerra, who is also a member of the PP. Both men were released the following day after posting €100,000 in bail.

Eighteen people, most of whom are employed in the construction industry or related sectors, were arrested yesterday as part of the second phase of investigation 'Troya', which remains ongoing, and police say they are not ruling out further detentions.

Despite his arrest and the charges against him, Mr Serón was re-elected by a substantial majority at the local elections on the 27th May......

http://72.14.235.104/search?q=cache:VY3b0h...;cd=3&gl=gi

Now, why would a mayor on bail, get re-elected if the Spanish people don't agree it's OK to lie and cheat? Perhaps they were worried, that the "wrong" crook might get in.

Why are you living in a country populated by liars, cheaters and crooks?? Your statement indicates that although living in Spain you have a very poor and distorted understanding of Spanish people and Spanish culture. I trust that you yourself are open and honest with Spanish people and tell them that in your view they are, in the main, liars, cheaters and crooks and obviously accept that as the normal way of life - ie as part of their culture. You really couldn't be more wrong.

Err, you must have me confused with someone else.

I never said that I considered Spain was populated with liars, cheaters and crooks.

I was explaining how I was glad I never purchased a house in Spain due to the inherit corruption in the housing industry, be that estate agents, lawyers, developers or local governments.

I responded to your point, which was in fact a response to another poster, in which you stated that

"I don't agree that Spaniards generally accept that it is ok to cheat, lie and so on - as I say there is a very strong sense of honour and honesty is (generally) actually valued very highly in Spain."

I find this comment surprising considering that a mayor under suspicion for corruption was subsequently re-elected!

I love living in Spain, speak Spanish and have many Spanish friends.

However, my original post related to the fact that anyone who purchases a property in Spain, will lose a considerable amount of money.

jaseywasey - but the point that I made, that you challenged and disagreed with, was about the wider Spanish population and their levels of honesty and whether as part of their culture they accept lying, cheating, etc. and was not restricted to a focus on the property market in Spain. Look at my statement - the one you find 'so surprising'. You really don't think Spanish people have a very strong sense of honour and that they don'y highly value honesty? If you really believe this then, as I said before, you really don't understand Spanish people or their culture. I would also add that to generalise to a whole population and culture from the one example you provide is comic book level analysis and reasoning. I hope that if you keep living in Spain you will develop a deeper and more accurate understanding of the place you are in and the people you are living with - they deserve more respect from you than you demonstrate in your statements here. You do explicitely claim that Spanish people think it is ok to cheat and lie. How disrespectful can you be? How wrong can you be?
I would agree with you however that it is a very bad time to buy property in Spain as prices are already falling in many places and are likely to fall a long, long way down. I have property in my village (no mortgage) and will be more than happy to see it fall in value by 50% or more for the sake of the younger generation.

Comic book analysis? OK what about Jesús Gil, was one of the biggest crooks in Spain, and he was continually re-elected.

Please listen to me. I am not saying Spanish people are cheats, I am saying because the electorate don't seem bothered about corruption, the politicians have no incentive to change their behavior.

However spend some time on other Spanish forums and listen to the horror stories of people who have been cheated out of thousands of euros after getting involved in the Spanish property market and you will find these people are bothered about it.

This is what we are discussing.

Corruption in local politics is an accepted part of life in Spain, just as racism was acceptable in Britiain in 70's. What Spain needs to do is stamp out this corruption, otherwise people will choose, just as I have done, not to get involved in the property market here. Which judging by the million+ empty properties has already happened.

Just becuase something was once acceptable, doen't mean it will always be acceptable. If that were the case, English soccer fans would still be throwing bananas at black footballers.

Alfie,

I take on board your view but I´m just speaking about my experiences. The first thing I would like to make clear that my comments were about latin culture in general, not just the Spanish. In my opinion corruption seems to get worse the further south you go and of course Latin and South America are off the scale in this respect. They even have words for this called 'picaresca y picaro' also known as 'viveza criolla' which according to my cultural books means 'resorting to guile and trickery in order to get ahead or simply to survive'.

Now, I live in a Spanish area, I speak Spanish and I play 5-a-side football twice a week with the locals. I have discussed these cultural aspects many times when things have happened to me which I've have thought are totally unfair, and they say it's the same for the Spanish people too. They say life is very unfair here sometimes, but if you want live in Spain you have to take it on the chin.

One of the other things you have to up with is the general lack of consideration for other people although nowadays that could be said about the UK too. People park in front of your garage, they will block you in a parking space and they will even 'cut you up' while walking. And as for arranging appointments, you are lucky if they arrive within half an hour or indeed turn up at all.

Oh dear, it seems I have launched into a typical expat whinge which wasn't my intention! I love living here but the point I want to emphasise is that you musn't expect life to work the same way it does in the UK. To bring it back to property, I'd advise people to rent first as Jaseywasey says, and only buy if you are 100% sure you like it and can put up with all of the above.

MIS

Jesus Gil - well you can generalise from anything can't you but it doesn't mean that the generalisation is correct (they rarely ever are). You could say that because the UK had the Kray Twins that British culture is violent, crooked and psychopathic in nature and that the UK population thinks this kind of behaviour is respectable, ok and acceptable - gee, just look at the books people buy about the twins. Or perhaps that would be a somewhat distorted perception of British culture and British people.

In terms of appointment times and so on I think this is more a reflection of levels of understanding/not understanding the culture. - although there are of course rude and inconsiderate people wherever you go. I know of British people who have said that the Spanish are so rude because they talk over you in conversation rather than taking it in turns to speak. In Spain, to talk over people in conversation is actually seen as good manners - it demonstrates that you are engaged with the conversation and taking note and responding to what the other person(s) are saying. In the UK it is seen as rude - more generally you are expected to wait until the other person has finished talking before you speak. In Spain this is seen as very odd and rather rude. Spanish people also find it very difficult how many British people are very unanimated when interacting with people in Spain. Again this can appear very rude when in fact the British people are not intending to be rude at all. A stereotype of British people in Spain (sometimes seen in newspaper cartoons) is they are represented as a statue (ie they are so lacking in animation when engaging in conversation).
You really have to be very careful about about assessing other cultures and the people from that culture and indeed being judgemental about them (particularly when the judgements are so negative).

Well you can only make judgements from what you have experienced and during my time living here these things have happened. I also forgot to mention the different prices for goods and services depending on whether you are foreign or not, but once you know about these things, you learn to deal with them. As you said there are good and bad in every culture as not all expats are whinging alcoholics.

Take for example two Argentinians have met. One was the most unscrupulous person I have ever met (an a estate agent of course ) who would have sold her own mother and said black was white to make a sale. Another guy was one of the most genuine blokes I've ever met who even bought me a bottle of wine at the end of his classes.

There are many positive aspects to the Spanish culture too otherwise foreigners wouldn´t stay. Most Spaniards are extremely friendly and if you ask them to do anything for you they will always oblige. They also don't like to see people on their own and will always invite you to parties if you are alone or get you to join in festivals etc.

It is only by talking and learning that misunderstandings can be avoided.

Ah yes, the Krays, but I can't ever recall either of them being voted Lord Mayor of London.

I'm not sure why or how this has Spanish v English row, that was never my intention.

I will list some facts please feel free to dispute them:

Corruption is endemic in the Spanish housing industry, this includes lawyers, estate agents, developers and local politicans.

When local politicans have been accused of wrong-doing, the elecorate are non-plussed and simply vote them in again.

The housing market in Spain is on the edge of a precipice due to the following reasons:

• Massive over-supply
• Poor quality builds/poor location
• Fear of purchasing an illegal build
• Fear of land-grab
• Credit crunch/Investors pulling out
• Bank guarantees not worth the paper they are printed on
• 10%+ Purchase costs/tax
• Low possible rental income
• Scare stories concerning legality of holiday lets
• Tax implications of purchasing a property BMV

I love Spain, the people and the culture.

• Fantasic weather
• Great beaches/countryside/resorts
• Friendly people
• Beautiful women
• Low costs of living
• Historic places - Seville/Cadiz/Cordoba
• I could go on and on

Of course I could list things I don't like about Spain, but that's not for this forum.

This forum is to discuss, house prices in Spain, which due to the numerous reasons previously discussed, I believe are overpriced by 50%

Property prices are way over valued in Spain and have been this way for quite some time. The days of cheap money seem to be over and now that the world wide credit crisis is now in full swing there will be a lot of panic selling in places like Spain, Turkey, Cyprus and Croatia. Those that have properties in places like Bulgaria and Romania will be less affected due to having much cheaper properties. Take a look at http://www.hiday.net/

Wishful thinking.

In countries like Bulgaria with no established resale market it's likely that some "investors" will lose everything when they find their bargain buys are unsaleable. In short, they are the greater fool in that particular market.

In my opinion France,Spain and Italy will be the least affected markets out of the "property abroad" craze.

Worst affected will be Bulgaria,Romania,Morroco,Turkey and Hungary.

What is the basis of my argument. Well France, Spain and Italy have a long tradition and are established resorts. Foriegners have been buying holiday homes in these places since the Roman era. 15 years ago many planes flew daily to Alicante, Malaga, Nice, Rome etc. In Boom and Bust these flights will continue to run,in boom and bust the infrastructure will remain, the bars, the cafes etc. Can the same be said for Morocco, Bulgaria, Romania, Turkey etc.

These markets are almost entirely based around speculation. When that bubble bursts you are left with nothing, absolutely nothing. These resorts will just disappear or the market for property will just revert to local pricing levels

The EU market seems to have slowed down everywhere and when this happens opportunities arise
Spain is no different and it is now perhaps the best time to buy
Builders and developers are the same the world over and when a market gets slow they adjust to sell their products
An example is a small urbanisation 5 mins from the beaches of Orihuela Costa All 2 bed maisonettes GF with gardens 30-90 m2 FF with solarium Solar for hot water Communal pool and opposite a new golf course Priced to sell from 104.000 €
As a Spanish home they must be the best buys anywhere in Spain, never mind on Costa Blanca
Built to modern standards and ready Sept 2008
Lots of other similar opportunities

Really now?

Perhaps people should have a look at this first.

"Welcome to Orihuela Costa. The Worst Municipality in Spain"

http://www.theolivepress.es/2007/11/12/ama...truction-video/


I bet you don´t show your clients this?

made my day

BrianR

do you show your perspective buyers this?

Oh come on! just because Spain has slowed down it does not mean that other property markets in Europe are experiencing the same type of difficulties. Spain has been ridiculously over priced for years and even if prices do drop there are still very few bargains to be had. Other places in eastern europe, like Bulgaria and Romania might experience some slow down but properties prices there are still relatively cheap and if the value of properties decrease it will not mean so much. http://www.hiday.net/