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narco
Without a doubt, this thread is the most important on this forum.

I still dont fully understand all aspects of how we have arrived at this disaster, who actually owns this stuff, why it was allowed to happen and what is going to happen in the future.

Someone should write an FAQ so we can have it pinned as a sticky on the main forum. This would be helpful for all (especially newcomers) to provide a clear understanding. wink.gif

This should replace the "Signs Of Credit Tightening: Let's Keep Track" thread... imo
Pluto
These may be the first deaths due directly to the effect of inflation:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7128797.stm

People's sensitivity to prices was underscored recently when three people were killed in a stampede at a supermarket. They were trampled to death as they tried to buy cooking oil that was discounted by a bit more than a dollar.
cgnao
Think of the impact on bond insurers who have sold billions worth of insurance against default of GM, Ford or Chrysler bonds. They are the same companies insuring municipal bonds.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1196905361...s_us_whats_news
Surge in Auto-Loan Delinquencies
Is Latest Trouble for the Economy
By JEFFREY MCCRACKEN and GREGORY ZUCKERMAN
December 6, 2007; Page A1

First came housing loans and the subprime-mortgage crisis.

Now, signs of stress are creeping into another key consumer area: auto loans.

Delinquencies in the auto-loan market are ticking up to their highest level in several years. Lenders are tightening terms in some cases, and interest rates have risen from the rock-bottom levels of a few years ago. About $575 billion in loans for new and used cars are made annually, according to the National Automotive Finance Association.

About 4.5% of auto loans made in 2006 to top-rated borrowers were at least 30 days delinquent as of the end of September, up from 2.9% the previous month, according to a Lehman Brothers survey of companies servicing these loans. That is the biggest one-month jump in at least eight years. Lehman says 12% of subprime borrowers, who have poorer credit records, were delinquent on their 2006 auto loans as of September. That is the highest level since 2002 and up from 11.1% the previous month.

"The numbers will get worse for auto loans," says Dan Castro of GSC Group, a New York firm that runs debt-related investment funds. "We're starting to see signs of rising losses, and delinquencies are creeping up."

Few in the auto-loan industry see the strain as the kind of disaster-in-the-making that home mortgages have become. Still, there is a connection between the two categories, since the squeeze on some home borrowers may make it harder to carry car loans. The trouble signs in auto loans suggest that the credit woes could be spreading to the broader economy, a development that has been worrying investors and policy makers in Washington.

....

Many auto loans undergo the same Wall Street financial engineering as the mortgage loans that stand at the center of the credit crisis, making this a potential issue for investors. Auto loans often are bundled together into securities, sliced and diced into pieces with varying levels of risk and return, and sold to investors around the world.

....

Borrower problems also could deal a blow to the already-struggling auto industry. Auto sales held up during the 2001 recession in part because lenders were able to offer easy borrowing terms. If lenders tighten terms in response to the delinquencies, it would make it harder for some people to buy cars.

Pluto
Don't forget student loans are defaulting as well (assume crash position):

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1196906913...=googlenews_wsj

Shares of First Marblehead Corp. fell 30% over two trading sessions after bond-rater Moody's Corp. indicated that worries about complex asset-backed securities have spread to a new realm: student loans.

First Marblehead, based in Boston, is a leading player in packaging student loans into structured securities. On Tuesday, Moody's put 16 notes structured by the company under review for possible downgrade -- a reaction to rising default rates in the loans underlying the notes.

Moody's added two more notes to its review yesterday, bringing the total to $935 million in issued value. Moody's also said it was considering a downgrade ...
Goldfinger
QUOTE (Pluto @ Dec 6 2007, 11:04 PM) *
... Once the mortgage markets collapse so will credit cards and vehicle loans. My theory is you prime borrowers will start defaulting on every other loan before they stop paying their mortgages.

This will spread to every credit market out there.

This is a very valid point and I have to admit that I wasn't really aware of it before. Of course, you first want to default on the 'small' and unsecured stuff.
Goldfinger
QUOTE (cgnao @ Dec 6 2007, 11:30 PM) *
...
Few in the auto-loan industry see the strain as the kind of disaster-in-the-making that home mortgages have become. Still, there is a connection between the two categories, since the squeeze on some home borrowers may make it harder to carry car loans. The trouble signs in auto loans suggest that the credit woes could be spreading to the broader economy, a development that has been worrying investors and policy makers in Washington.
...

It's NOT contained, I suppose.
Injin
QUOTE (Goldfinger @ Dec 6 2007, 11:50 PM) *
This is a very valid point and I have to admit that I wasn't really aware of it before. Of course, you first want to default on the 'small' and unsecured stuff.


Doesn't the first person to take you to court get first dibs on your stuff as well?

i.e. you own the auto company £2,000, the credit card £4,000 - the first to get you to court will be the most likely to get something back. That's an enormous incentive to be as ruthless as possible.

Oh dear, not good if you want to maintain miracle economies, is it?
Bloo Loo
QUOTE (Goldfinger @ Dec 6 2007, 11:54 PM) *
It's NOT contained, I suppose.


Is Pluto advocating that we start defaulting- if we all do this its all over in a week- A RUN ON THE ENTIRE WORLD ECONOMY.

I wish I could afford some gold!
narco
QUOTE (Bloo Loo @ Dec 6 2007, 11:57 PM) *
Is Pluto advocating that we start defaulting- if we all do this its all over in a week- A RUN ON THE ENTIRE WORLD ECONOMY.

I wish I could afford some gold!

Join the club.... Silver? tongue.gif
Goldfinger
QUOTE (Bloo Loo @ Dec 6 2007, 11:57 PM) *
I wish I could afford some gold!

A Sovereign is £101.25 as we talk, a 1/10oz Maple is £46.75. See e.g. http://www.goldline.co.uk/goldlinedev/GC/G...insCentre.ghtml

EDIT: Quite shocked to see Sovereigns over £100 now! ohmy.gif
Pluto
QUOTE (Bloo Loo @ Dec 6 2007, 11:57 PM) *
Is Pluto advocating that we start defaulting- if we all do this its all over in a week- A RUN ON THE ENTIRE WORLD ECONOMY.

I wish I could afford some gold!


When the economy slows down and people start losing their jobs they will be forced into deciding which loans to default on first. This is why I said prime borrowers, because prime borrowers will have more equity in their houses and therefore would want to hold on to them - for at least as long as possible. The sub-prime will have nothing to lose.
Charlie The Tramp
BBC News 24/America

Guy in the US said UK subprime defaults not really a problem, US will take the fallout as most have been sold on.
Compounded
QUOTE (narco @ Dec 6 2007, 11:16 PM) *
Without a doubt, this thread is the most important on this forum.


I believe it

Wish I felt cgnao was talking rubbish.

But the more I read the more convinced I am that real economic breakdown is coming in the next few years - the exuberance, the excesses, the greed driven stupidity have all been greater than the 1920's.

I got watching property ladder at a mates the other night - the punters are in laa laa land - made me feel sick.
Pluto
QUOTE (Charlie The Tramp @ Dec 7 2007, 12:47 AM) *
BBC News 24/America

Guy in the US said UK subprime defaults not really a problem, US will take the fallout as most have been sold on.


He is right. It is not really a problem, it is more like a complete catastrophe, which is just starting to unravel.

Hurry up with more rate cuts Mr. King - your public await with baited breath.
cgnao
Fault lines developing. Imminent earthquake.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtm...cnmorgan107.xml
Morgan Stanley's Chenevix-Trench leaves

By Jonathan Sibun
Last Updated: 12:04pm GMT 07/12/2007

The credit crunch has taken its latest high profile victim on Wall Street after one of Morgan Stanley's top bankers left the firm.

Jonathan Chenevix-Trench, chief operating officer of Morgan Stanley's institutional securities business, left following the departure of long term ally Zoe Cruz at the end of November.
cgnao
Computer says no. This is the mark of the derivative beast.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtm.../cnhedge108.xml
Hedge funds hit by market volatility

By James Quinn
Last Updated: 12:32am GMT 08/12/2007

Continued swings in the financial markets as a result of the credit crisis have hit two major hedge funds run by Goldman Sachs and AQR Capital Management.

Goldman's Global Alpha fund, which has assets of more than $10bn (£4.9bn), reported a 6pc fall in November, bringing the decline for the year to 37pc.

Meanwhile AQR's $4bn Absolute Return fund is down 11pc on the year, having dropped 6pc last month.

The falls, as reported by Bloomberg News, highlight the volatility experienced across markets during November, triggered initially by a $369bn fall in global equities as the result of concern over Citigroup's balance sheet.

Both the Goldman and the AQR funds are quantitative funds - using computer-driven algorithms to pick shares and options.
cgnao
The market says no to rate cuts. This is the mark of the derivative beast.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtm.../cnlibor108.xml
Fears as Libor fails to mirror base rate cut

By Philip Aldrick
Last Updated: 12:32am GMT 08/12/2007

Further proof that Britain's money markets are moving beyond the Bank of England's control emerged yesterday as the cost of inter-bank borrowing failed to respond to Thursday's quarter point cut in base rates.
cgnao
Libor, not BoE base rate. This is the mark of the derivative beast.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4a14bdd2-a42f-11...?nclick_check=1
Property derivatives prices tumble

By David Oakley and Jim Pickard

Published: December 7 2007 02:54 | Last updated: December 7 2007 02:54

Property derivatives prices have fallen sharply in the past few months as confidence in the underlying market wanes.

...

Property derivatives – mainly swaps between total property returns and interest rates based on Libor – have seen a big jump in volumes this year.
eightiesgirly
Further down the rabbit hole.
loafer
QUOTE (cgnao @ Dec 8 2007, 10:51 PM) *
Libor, not BoE base rate. This is the mark of the derivative beast.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4a14bdd2-a42f-11...?nclick_check=1
Property derivatives prices tumble

By David Oakley and Jim Pickard

Published: December 7 2007 02:54 | Last updated: December 7 2007 02:54

Property derivatives prices have fallen sharply in the past few months as confidence in the underlying market wanes.

...

Property derivatives – mainly swaps between total property returns and interest rates based on Libor – have seen a big jump in volumes this year.


That's what swaps are - the swap of Libor + or - x for an alternative which could be fixed interest rates or property returns. It all comes out in the wash.

The actual amount of property derivatives being traded is tiny - virtually all trades are match trades as you need to find someone with a diverse portfolio of property to sell the real estate end of the risk and there are very few of those about.

This means there has never been any real liquidity, and whilst volumes may have jumped, it is from chuff all to slightly less than chuff all.

cgnao
Spot on, 100% correct, guaranteed.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...9/IN5BTNJ2V.DTL
MORTGAGE MELTDOWN
Interest rate 'freeze' - the real story is fraud
Bankers pay lip service to families while scurrying to avert suits, prison

Sean Olender
Sunday, December 9, 2007

New proposals to ease our great mortgage meltdown keep rolling in. First the Treasury Department urged the creation of a new fund that would buy risky mortgage bonds as a tactic to hide what those bonds were really worth. (Not much.) Then the idea was to use Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to buy the risky loans, even if it was clear that U.S. taxpayers would eventually be stuck with the bill. But that plan went south after Fannie suffered a new accounting scandal, and Freddie's existing loan losses shot up more than expected.

Now, just unveiled Thursday, comes the "freeze," the brainchild of Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson. It sounds good: For five years, mortgage lenders will freeze interest rates on a limited number of "teaser" subprime loans. Other homeowners facing foreclosure will be offered assistance from the Federal Housing Administration.

But unfortunately, the "freeze" is just another fraud - and like the other bailout proposals, it has nothing to do with U.S. house prices, with "working families," keeping people in their homes or any of that nonsense.s, with "working families," keeping people in their homes or any of that nonsense.

The sole goal of the freeze is to prevent owners of mortgage-backed securities, many of them foreigners, from suing U.S. banks and forcing them to buy back worthless mortgage securities at face value - right now almost 10 times their market worth.

The ticking time bomb in the U.S. banking system is not resetting subprime mortgage rates. The real problem is the contractual ability of investors in mortgage bonds to require banks to buy back the loans at face value if there was fraud in the origination process.

...

The catastrophic consequences of bond investors forcing originators to buy back loans at face value are beyond the current media discussion. The loans at issue dwarf the capital available at the largest U.S. banks combined, and investor lawsuits would raise stunning liability sufficient to cause even the largest U.S. banks to fail, resulting in massive taxpayer-funded bailouts of Fannie and Freddie, and even FDIC.

....

We are on the cusp of a mammoth financial crisis, and the Federal Reserve and the U.S. Treasury are trying to limit the liability of their banking friends under the guise of trying to help borrowers. At stake is nothing short of the continued existence of the U.S. banking system.
tinecu
Law suits....anyone heard of one yet?


narco
QUOTE (cgnao @ Dec 10 2007, 12:01 AM) *
The catastrophic consequences of bond investors forcing originators to buy back loans at face value are beyond the current media discussion. The loans at issue dwarf the capital available at the largest U.S. banks combined, and investor lawsuits would raise stunning liability sufficient to cause even the largest U.S. banks to fail, resulting in massive taxpayer-funded bailouts of Fannie and Freddie, and even FDIC.

This is THE crunch issue.

Clearly there must be many angry investors out there who have purchased these golden turds and of course, they will be demanding some kind of recompense.

So when we hear a specific bank is making a multi billion 'write down', is that because they are being forced to buy this crap back? Or is it because they have bundled this still together along with a value but can no longer find a buyer?

This is where it all gets very confusing. blink.gif
zinny01
Bank's capital bases seem to now being raised as a concern (which they are of course). This is the second article I have seen writter about very bearish forecasts based purely on various IB's capital holdings. Now that SIV's are dead, capital is going to become even more important.

http://business.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1922092007

QUOTE
Trust goes 100% liquid and waits for the coming catastrophe
BILL JAMIESON EXECUTIVE EDITOR

INVESTORS in Edinburgh-based investment trust Personal Assets Trust are long-accustomed to gloomy warnings of a stock- market plunge.

But the latest Quarterly Report from Robin Angus should send them scurrying this week to the Bed Shed for mattresses to stuff their money in.

Markets, he says, are poised for a collapse "akin in magnitude to that of 1973-74" (or the Japanese equity disaster post-1989).

"It is now obvious", he argues, "that the capital base of the world's banking system has been seriously eroded and the capital adequacy ratios are a pressing problem for many banks."

The trust, which has long been famously bearish about prospects for stock markets, has already moved from being some 60 per cent liquid to 100 per cent.

This is thought to be a record in the investment trust world, and somewhat at odds with the purpose of investment trusts - which is to enable the public to invest in a spread of equities.

One grim consolation for investors - it has acquired a loyal but eclectic following of seriously pessimistic people - is past high-cash positions have resulted in under-performance over one, three and five years. But this may only make the coming reckoning all the more severe. The trust still has some £90 million in shares including, oddly, substantial holdings in HBOS, Royal Bank of Scotland and Barclays. But these are offset by an effective put option of £92m on the FTSE 100, which would cover the trust in the event of a market plunge.

Mr Angus's latest summation is not for the faint-hearted. After a detailed dissection of the US subprime mortgage crisis, he concludes that the banking system is in serious trouble "and may not be able to save itself by its own exertions".

Of the two options available to the Fed Reserve - an in extremis cut in interest rates to zero as the Bank of Japan did from 1992, or raise dollar liquidity by printing money - "these courses would, if attempted, prove highly counter-productive".

Only the US government could save the banking system. "However", he adds, "the bail-out costs to the US taxpayer would be so huge that such a resolution would be politically impossible." Another worry, he says, is the possibility of a rise in the yen, which could force yet further enormous debt repayments by the hedge funds if the yen "carry trade" collapses.

Those who make it to the end of the report without resort to a bottle of whisky or a loaded revolver will find no Yuletide greeting, but a dark question from Mr Angus. "World markets may still have a Merry Christmas", he writes. "But will they have a Happy New Year?"

Best perhaps, not to rush with that ISA application form.


Interestingly I also read this article on Prudent Bear suggesting that the Fed rate cuts are purely to help banks recover their asset base.

If you have the time, read this article I found it very informative.

http://www.prudentbear.com/index.php/FeaturedCommentary
QUOTE
The Fed strategy also assists affected banks. The large writedowns in risky assets and the expected re-intermediation of assets means that some banks need large infusions of capital. Given recent performance and subdued profit outlook, it would be difficult for them to raise this capital at acceptable prices.

Lower short-term interest rates allow banks to borrow cheaply. The money can be used to purchase government bonds that provide higher returns than the cost of borrowing. This generates profits for the bank without the banks having to hold capital against their assets (banks generally are not required to hold capital against government securities). The profits help re-capitalize the bank. An added benefit is that the US government can fund its deficit by selling its debt to the banks. This would be handy if foreign demand for US Treasuries decreases in response to the weaker dollar.

In the 1980s, US manufacturers looked to Japan as the source of ideas to improve efficiency. Remember “Just-in-Time” manufacturing, “zero defect” etc. Now, it seems US regulators are borrowing ideas from their Japanese colleagues. The Bank of Japan used the same strategy to re-capitalize the loss making Japanese banks after the collapse of the “bubble economy” in 1989.


Edited for spilling
Gremlin
UBS have just announced 10bn writedown. The misery continues........

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=new...id=asho2DSwtGjg
cgnao
More on this.

Huge, spiralling losses. This is the mark of the derivative beast.

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews...10?rpc=401&
UBS makes $10 bln writedown, raises new capital
Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:50am EST

ZURICH, Dec 10 (Reuters) - Swiss bank UBS (UBSN.VX: Quote, Profile, Research) announced $10 billion in fresh subprime writedowns on Monday and said it had obtained a huge injection of fresh capital from a Singapore government entity and an unnamed Middle East investor.

USB, which has been severely battered by the U.S. subprime mortgage meltdown, also said it expected to make a fourth-quarter loss, reversing previous guidance, and said it may also register a loss for 2007 as a whole.
cgnao
Another drop in the ocean. There is more than $2 trillion "worth" of structured securities around, plus many times over that in derivative bets on top of them.

Protect yourselves.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...&refer=home
Societe Generale Taking on $4.3 Billion of SIV Assets

By Sebastian Boyd

Dec. 10 (Bloomberg) -- Societe Generale SA, France's second-biggest bank by market value, will bail out its structured investment vehicle by taking on $4.3 billion of assets to avoid a fire sale.

The rescue will cause Societe Generale's ratio of Tier 1 assets, a measure of financial strength, to fall by 5 basis points, the Paris-based lender said today in an e-mailed statement, citing ``market conditions'' for the decision. Asset- backed securities account for 75 percent of the holdings and debt issued by financial companies make up the rest.
cgnao
Rate cut? What rate cut? This is the mark of the derivative beast.

http://www.moneyam.com/action/news/showArticle?id=2498769
UK interbank lending rates continue to rise despite BoE rate cut last week

LONDON (Thomson Financial) - The cost of borrowing between banks in the UK resumed its rise once again after dipping last week in the wake of the interest rate cut by the Bank of England.

The daily fixing of the London Interbank Offered Rate (Libor) rose to 6.70 pct on a one-month basis from 6.66 pct on Friday.

Meanwhile, rates on three-month contracts were up to 6.62 pct from Friday's 6.61 pct, but remained unchanged on an overnight basis at 5.69 pct.

Analysts noted that these interbank lending rates remain far above the BoE's Bank rate, despite the fact that this was cut on Thursday to 5.50 pct from 5.75 pct.
Goldfinger
Market says NO.
Injin
QUOTE (Goldfinger @ Dec 10 2007, 02:03 PM) *
Market says NO.


What's the one sort of money no one can refuse in payment of debts again?

Hyperinflation it is.
cgnao
Ouch. Negative outlook = more ratings cut to come.

http://www.afxnews.com/about488/index.php?...p;story=2215793
2007-12-10 14:23:29
UBS cut to 'AA' with negative outlook - Fitch

MUMBAI (Thomson Financial) - Fitch Ratings said it cut UBS AG and its wholly owned subsidiary UBS Ltd's long-term issuer default ratings to 'AA' from 'AA+' after the Swiss banking group said it will write down a further 10 bln usd in US subprime holdings.

"The additional write-downs announced by UBS today are significantly higher than previous guidance from the group and reflect ongoing valuation challenges in a still difficult market environment," Fitch said.

The writedowns come over and above the 4.4 bln usd write-downs UBS took in the third quarter, Fitch noted.

The outlook on the ratings is negative.
sossij
Is this also the mark of the derivative beast?

QUOTE
Global debt hit by credit crunch

The market is still reeling from the aftershocks of the credit crunch
Borrowing in international debt markets slumped by more than half between July and September amid the global credit crunch, a study has suggested.
Financial market turmoil saw the value of bonds and notes issued as security on loans fall to $396bn, said the Bank for International Settlements (BIS).
...

The one area which showed substantial growth during the third quarter was derivatives tradiing, as compaanies and banks tried to hedge their losses as interest rates and currency rates changed sharply.

Derivative trades in currencies, interest rates and swaps rose 27% in the quarter.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7136505.stm
cgnao
This is what has so far prevented a full blown stock market crash.

When (not if) they run out of cash to prop up their own investments, all hell will break loose and we'll see the Mother of All Stock Market Crashes.

This is 100% correct, guaranteed.

http://today.reuters.com/news/articleinves...INVESTMENTS.XML
Private equity firms forced to rescue own companies
Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:25am ET

LONDON, Dec 10 (Reuters) - Private equity firms are being forced to put more money into their struggling companies as the credit crunch has left banks and investors less willing to refinance ailing firms, industry insiders say.

Banks, hedge funds and distressed debt investors used to act as lenders in the refinancing of troubled companies owned by private equity firms that were able to avoid having to put more of their own money to rescue a company.

But now, the global credit turmoil has tightened lending, forcing private equity firms to bail out their own investments.


EDIT typo
A.steve
QUOTE (sossij @ Dec 10 2007, 04:05 PM) *
Is this also the mark of the derivative beast?


This is a question, not a speculation or suggestion...

I've noticed a significantly more noticeable volatility on the FTSE recently, and I wondered if this might be caused by derivative trading activity. My thinking goes like this:

* Stock portfolios represent critical assets for many financial institutions
* A stock price could, in principle, be artificially inflated by short-selling and buying the stock on the open market - in order to establish an artificial demand at a higher price than normal - for a while, at least.

How realistic is this scenario? Would it explain increased stock market volatility?
Would this be a strategy for investment banks to hide losses either temporarily or for the purposes of accounts?
Is (anything even vaguely like) this utter gibberish?
cgnao
This is the mark of the derivative beast.

Bank of America says closing money market fund
Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:00pm GMT

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Bank of America Corp's Columbia asset management unit said on Monday it is closing a privately placed money-market fund for institutional investors.

The bank's Columbia Strategic Cash Portfolio fund, which has less than $11 billion in assets, has been closed to new investors, said Columbia spokesman Jon Goldstein.

Goldstein denied a CNBC report that the fund had been frozen, saying that clients were being offered the option of cash redemptions or of switching their assets into other Columbia-managed funds.


More:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...refer=worldwide
Bank of America Freezes Institutional Investor Fund, CNBC Says

By Chris Dolmetsch

Dec. 10 (Bloomberg) -- Bank of America Corp. has frozen its Columbia Strategic Cash Portfolio fund, which is marketed to institutional investors and has about $12 billion in assets, financial news network CNBC reported, citing unidentified people in money management.

Bank of America sent a letter saying that the company will no longer take subscriptions or redemptions as a ``direct result'' of the subprime-mortgage credit crisis, CNBC reported, citing the people.

The fund, which isn't marketed to smaller retail investors, apparently had invested in some debt securities that are being affected by the crisis, CNBC said.
Ash4781
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/busi...icle3026016.ece

QUOTE
Bond issuance slumped around the world this summer and the use of derivatives to hedge risk soared as world markets took fright at the credit squeeze, according to the Bank of International Settlements.


Not sure what it means!
A.steve
QUOTE (Ash4781 @ Dec 10 2007, 05:16 PM) *
QUOTE

Bond issuance slumped around the world this summer and the use of derivatives to hedge risk soared as world markets took fright at the credit squeeze, according to the Bank of International Settlements.

Not sure what it means!


I assumed that the first bit (about bonds) means that hardly any debt could be packaged into bonds and sold to investors.
The second bit (about derivatives) means that there was a lot of demand for 'insurance' against defaults on existing debts... along with short-selling other investments (i.e. betting they'll do badly.)
The justification given is the tighter credit conditions since Subprime took centre stage...
cgnao
QUOTE (Goldfinger @ Dec 10 2007, 03:03 PM) *
Market says NO.


Indeed.

http://www.accountancyage.com/accountancya...es-uk-plc-libor
Libor will force insolvencies, says E&Y
Failure of the bank lending rate to mirror the base rate will mean companies feel the pinch even more

Written by Penny Sukhraj
Accountancy Age, 10 Dec 2007

The economic forecasting group Item Club has warned that the failure of the inter-bank borrowing rate to respond to the cut in interest rates could lead to insolvencies of large UK companies.

Peter Spencer, chief economic adviser to the Ernst & Young sponsored Item Club said: 'The market rather than the bank is now dictating monetary policy… If this problem is not sorted out in the next two to three months we're looking at major insolvencies in UK plc.'

cgnao
A vicious downward spiral, which is the mark of the derivative beast.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/busi...icle3031428.ece
From The Times
December 11, 2007
Fears of further writedowns send chill through the City

Fears of further multibillion-dollar writedowns from US sub-prime mortgage investments shook the City yesterday, as UBS took an additional $10 billion (£4.9 billion) hit and analysts said that November had been the worst month yet for banks.

UBS wrote down $10 billion of investments in bad American debt and was forced to tap two new investors for a SwFr13 billion (£5.6 billion) injection to its tier 1 capital. The world’s largest wealth manager warned shareholders that it was likely to make a full-year loss as it stripped them of their cash dividend.

The writedown came after UBS tightened its models to mark-to-market mortgage-related investments. Marcel Rohner, the chief executive of UBS, said that there had been a “continuous deterioration” in the sub-prime market in November, “partly driven by increased homeowner delinquencies but mainly fuelled by worsening market expectations”.

Other banks that gave loss estimates a month or more ago, before they were hit by the November down-turn, may now have to revisit their own models. Analysts at Dresdner Kleinwort said: “We believe there is a nontrivial risk of further writedowns”. Another analyst said: “This means that there might be more writedowns in the fourth quarter for the entire industry”.
Impartial
QUOTE (cgnao @ Dec 10 2007, 11:37 PM) *
A vicious downward spiral, which is the mark of the derivative beast.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/busi...icle3031428.ece

Other banks that gave loss estimates a month or more ago, before they were hit by the November down-turn, may now have to revisit their own models. Analysts at Dresdner Kleinwort said: “We believe there is a nontrivial risk of further writedowns”. Another analyst said: “This means that there might be more writedowns in the fourth quarter for the entire industry”.



BIG PROBLEM, The beast wants out.

These banks are losing money, writing it down. They are then funding these write down through external sources, Citi did it with the middle east, UBS did it with singapore and the middle east.

The next step and second mark of the beast will be to CUT dividends instead of funding through external sources.

The third mark of the beast will be law suits against the fraud that was MBS Bonds (maybe)

This will be the precursor to the mother of all crashes and hyper inflation, and will mark the presence of the beast.

The beast will rise and shine in all its glory after being suppressed for over 27 years.

The beast is Gold/Silver.
Fishfinger
QUOTE (Impartial @ Dec 10 2007, 09:53 PM) *
BIG PROBLEM, The beast wants out.

These banks are losing money, writing it down. They are then funding these write down through external sources, Citi did it with the middle east, UBS did it with singapore and the middle east.

The next step and second mark of the beast will be to CUT dividends instead of funding through external sources.

The third mark of the beast will be law suits against the fraud that was MBS Bonds (maybe)

This will be the precursor to the mother of all crashes and hyper inflation, and will mark the presence of the beast.

The beast will rise and shine in all its glory after being suppressed for over 27 years.

The beast is Gold/Silver.



Cgnao, have you cloned yourself? blink.gif
Pluto
Please take the time to watch this video. JiveDadson explains Level 3 assets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quAig5swFKM
narco
QUOTE (Pluto @ Dec 10 2007, 10:40 PM) *
Please take the time to watch this video. JiveDadson explains Level 3 assets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quAig5swFKM

Interesting

So I guess they have 1 year to sort out their finances. laugh.gif

By the way, here is the Herb Greenberg article he mentions during the latter part of the clip. I'd advise anyone who wants to know how deep the rabbit hole goes to read this carefully.

http://blogs.marketwatch.com/greenberg/200...rom-an-insider/
A.steve
QUOTE (Fishfinger @ Dec 10 2007, 10:00 PM) *
Cgnao, have you cloned yourself? blink.gif


I'd love to meet Cgano... I think he's deluded; psychotic and could possibly be the most interesting person I could ever meet.

Cgano... I hope you're not offended... No offence is intended. It is obvious to me that you're bright and obsessed. These characteristics alone are utterly captivating...

It goes without saying that I suspect you're mad. N.B. I'm not brave enough to say that you're also wrong.

So, Cgano... Where's your local pub?

Steve
ae589
QUOTE (A.steve @ Dec 10 2007, 10:58 PM) *
So, Cgano... Where's your local pub?


I say get Cgnao takes Bill Bonner's slot in Moneyweek when Bill gets bored.
Goldfinger
QUOTE (Pluto @ Dec 10 2007, 10:40 PM) *
Please take the time to watch this video. JiveDadson explains Level 3 assets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quAig5swFKM

Is this the same guy who hangs out on Axstone's thread on GIM?
twatmangle
QUOTE (A.steve @ Dec 10 2007, 10:58 PM) *
So, Cgano... Where's your local pub?

Steve


How about.... what is your Nationality CGNAO?
narco
QUOTE (narco @ Dec 10 2007, 10:55 PM) *
By the way, here is the Herb Greenberg article he mentions during the latter part of the clip. I'd advise anyone who wants to know how deep the rabbit hole goes to read this carefully.

http://blogs.marketwatch.com/greenberg/200...rom-an-insider/

Here is a video with further debate on this

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=606395607&play=1
cgnao
QUOTE (twatmangle @ Dec 11 2007, 12:17 AM) *
How about.... what is your Nationality CGNAO?


I am from Wonderland.
Questiondog
QUOTE (cgnao @ Dec 11 2007, 12:37 AM) *
I am from Wonderland.


http://www.wonderlandtelford.com/

Telford?

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