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House Price Crash forum > Investment > Financial markets
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Noel
QUOTE (zinny01 @ Nov 30 2007, 09:37 PM) *
Both please. As you seem to be on the front line of this I'd appreciate understanding how you objectively value either cash or synthetic, without the obvious and logical objective valuation of selling them on an open market. Selling these on the open market will never happen because your models are faulty. Based on the assumption that house prices will never fall. laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif


(I say your as I read your posts that stated you worked FO in fixed income).


As someone stated a few pages ago, the market for a lot of the synthetic products is still alive and well. Volumes in single and indices CDS products (and I assume tranches, although I don't work with this desk), although down, is still substantial. I am not disputing that some markets are buggered, just not all of them. That is the point I was making.
You can still trade CDS on banks such as Northern Crock, A&L etc.
leedsproperty
QUOTE (cgnao @ Nov 29 2007, 10:56 AM) *
Cut your spending. Earn as much as you can. Spend as little as you can. No point saving, use any cash surplus to cut yur debt as much as possible, as soon as possible. Getting out of debt is your foremost priority. All else is unimportant in your situation.


I'm surprised at this advice.

Surely the question is "Is the debt on a fixed rate and what is it" before you can answer the question.

If Hyperinflation does occur then it would be stupid to pay off fixed rate debt.
Anders
From Steve Forbes, Editor-in-Chief of Forbes magazine, in his "Fact and Comment" column in the November 26th issue:

"The global inflation unleashed by Alan Greenspan and the Federal Reserve in 2004 is now showing up more and more in traditional price indexes. The Fed and other whistlers-past-the-graveyard state that 'core' inflation is not too bad. But core inflation leaves out 'volatile' food and energy prices. Add these in and you get a much more alarming picture."

"Debasing the dollar has hurt investments here . . . If we don't deal with this now, it's going to damage us a whole lot more later. Poor Ben Bernanke doesn't know what to do. If he raises interest rates, that will roil the markets and perhaps rekindle last summer's panic. If he eases, he'll be creating inflation and economic distortions of the kind that hit housing.

Alas, Bernanke has been taught to ignore the best gauge of monetary policy: the price of gold. If he were to announce that the Fed was no longer going to peg interest rates but was instead going to use gold as its guide (within a broad range), the markets would heave a sigh of relief, knowing we were going to defend the integrity of the dollar. Short-term interest rates would actually trend downward."

. . . . and from Richard Russell, long-time market analyst and founder, editor and publisher of Dow Theory Letters, in remarks posted on his website on November 28th:

"Almost every sector that I examine or study is overpriced -- from the US stock market selling at over 18 times earnings to the Shanghai stock market selling at a ridiculous 55 times earnings. Housing is overpriced, commercial real estate is overpriced, land almost everywhere is overpriced, stocks everywhere are overpriced, most currencies are overpriced. You name it today, and it's probably overpriced.

I believe that the bear market signal is telling us that the great unwinding has arrived. I think we are on the edge, the very edge, of international deflation. Prices of everything will be coming back to earth. It's going to be a long, slow, deceptive process. And obviously it's going to be a painful process. The world's 'punch bowl' has sprung a leak."

"I believe it's already dawned on the Fed and probably central banks around the world that deflation has begun to show its face. The central banks are very fearful of deflation. Their answer to deflation is, and will be, to lower interest rates and try to reliquefy their economies. This will entail stepping up the creation of fiat money. There is no limit to the sheer amount of paper that the central banks can create, and as deflation increases its grip on the economies of the world, I expect a virtual blizzard of fiat currencies to be created.

The forces of deflation will not be defeated any more than a primary bear market can be 'reversed.' The increasing flood of paper will, however, diminish the purchasing power of the various currencies. This will result in the paper cost of gold rising. The more fiat paper being created, the more paper will be required to buy an ounce of gold. Thus, what will really be happening is that gold will remain the centerpiece as it always has been, and the value of fiat paper will decline in terms of gold."
cgnao
They want to save the system, but they can't.

They are and will continue lending ever growing amounts on ever easier terms, accepting ever lower quality, illiquid securities as collateral at inflated prices. This is and will continue making the money supply grow exponentially, which by immutable economic law is hyperinflationary.

The unstoppable, vicious process they have set in motion will end in the destruction of the purchasing power of all currencies, global contraction of economic activity, mass unemployment, dramatic decline in the standard of living, social unrest, total loss of public confidence in governments, central banks and all currencies and ultimately a return to the gold standard by popular demand.

This is all you need to know and is 100% correct, guaranteed.

All else is propaganda, spin, lies and co-ordinated media and market manipulation.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1196467898...ats_news_europe
Central Banks Get Creative Desperate
By Justin Lahart

Banks and other financial firms' persistent reluctance to lend to one another is creating a logjam in the credit markets that is pushing central bankers to get creative.

On Monday, the Federal Reserve said it would extend loans for longer-than-usual terms to Wall Street dealers it deals with directly. On Tuesday, the Bank of England said that beginning this coming week it will offer £10 billion ($20.61 billion) in special loans for five weeks at its key interest rate of 5.75%.
cgnao
100% correct, guaranteeed.

Remember where you heard this first.

MUHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAH

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/conte...gn_id=rss_daily
News November 29, 2007, 12:00AM EST
Banking: This Disaster Was Guaranteed
Money-back assurances on subprime-linked securities are costing some leading banks billions

Although refund policies have long been standard practice for retailers, they've rarely been given for financial investments--and for good reason.

A closer look at the mortgage meltdown reveals Citigroup © and other big banks offered a type of money-back guarantee to buyers of nearly $100 billion of subprime mortgage-linked securities, according to a BusinessWeek analysis. Incredibly risky in retrospect, the refund policies were critical in the banks' push to keep a steady stream of money coming in during the peak years of the housing market from 2004 to 2006. But the myopic decision has been a central cause of the billions in losses that some banks are now reporting. Citi, which declined to comment, announced on Nov. 5 that it was on the hook for $25 billion worth of such deals.

...

HIDDEN LIABILITIES

Here's how it happened. Money-market funds eagerly bought up the short-term debt associated with the subprime-linked securities known as collateralized debt obligations (CDOs). The refund policies, technically known as "liquidity puts," were crucial. For instance, they allowed the credit rating agencies to bestow on the investments the same grade they gave the banks that backed them. That reassured the funds.

The CDO managers then used the borrowed money to fund their purchases; it was a cheap way to leverage the portfolio. Hedge funds salivated over that strategy, pouring billions more into CDOs. For example, two Bear Stearns (BSC) hedge funds now in bankruptcy relied on guarantees from Citi to raise $10 billion from money-market investors for three CDOs brand-named Klio, according to documents reviewed by BusinessWeek. It was all part of the massive machine that pumped more than $1 trillion into the housing market.

In the aftermath, analysts are increasingly worried about banks' hidden commitments on everything from credit-card debt to corporate loans. Warned Goldman Sachs (GS) analyst William F. Tanona in his Nov. 19 report on Citi, which rated the stock a sell: "Other off-balance-sheet items could be lurking."
eightiesgirly
QUOTE (leedsproperty @ Dec 1 2007, 10:00 AM) *
I'm surprised at this advice.

Surely the question is "Is the debt on a fixed rate and what is it" before you can answer the question.

If Hyperinflation does occur then it would be stupid to pay off fixed rate debt.


In the eighties the cost of servicing all debt got worse and worse , I remember credit cards with 29.9% apr as the norm. If this happened now I think a great deal of people would go under. I remember all too well the fear of the postbox and the phone as we just went down deeper by the week.
your'e in a hole and the lenders keep digging it deeper for you with ever increasing charges. I remember being charged £25 for a bounced cheque, the bank bounced the same cheque three times in a two week period £75 right there that we did not have. Then added penal unauthorised borrowing cost and so on.

One week I had six eggs and some spuds in the cupboard, every penny I had earned went in bank charges, the debt remained the same.
narco
QUOTE (eightiesgirly @ Dec 1 2007, 12:50 PM) *
In the eighties the cost of servicing all debt got worse and worse , I remember credit cards with 29.9% apr as the norm. If this happened now I think a great deal of people would go under. I remember all too well the fear of the postbox and the phone as we just went down deeper by the week.
your'e in a hole and the lenders keep digging it deeper for you with ever increasing charges. I remember being charged £25 for a bounced cheque, the bank bounced the same cheque three times in a two week period £75 right there that we did not have. Then added penal unauthorised borrowing cost and so on.

One week I had six eggs and some spuds in the cupboard, every penny I had earned went in bank charges, the debt remained the same.

Anything on a permanent fixed rate should be ok.

Any borrowing that is variable or turns variable needs to be paid off ASAP.

Base rates are certain to rise at some point, possibly 20% +
eightiesgirly
QUOTE (narco @ Dec 1 2007, 02:01 PM) *
Anything on a permanent fixed rate should be ok.

Any borrowing that is variable or turns variable needs to be paid off ASAP.

Base rates are certain to rise at some point, possibly 20% +


Sh*t, it's all happening again,isn't it? much bigger and 'better ph34r.gif ' this time though. SometimesI think i'ts better to be very poor, you have nothing to lose.
narco
QUOTE (eightiesgirly @ Dec 1 2007, 02:17 PM) *
Sh*t, it's all happening again,isn't it? much bigger and 'better ph34r.gif ' this time though. SometimesI think i'ts better to be very poor, you have nothing to lose.

This is serious stuff that smacks of the 1970's and potentially even worse.

Cgnao feels this is the 'big' one and more and more on here people are starting to agree.
eightiesgirly
QUOTE (narco @ Dec 1 2007, 02:21 PM) *
This is serious stuff that smacks of the 1970's and potentially even worse.

Cgnao feels this is the 'big' one and more and more on here people are starting to agree.


Yes the system is broken, I don't think you need to be educated or clever to catch on to that much. This is about so much more than high house prices, they are just the symptom. The malaise runs much, much deeper.
Red Kharma
QUOTE (eightiesgirly @ Dec 1 2007, 02:29 PM) *
Yes the system is broken, I don't think you need to be educated or clever to catch on to that much. This is about so much more than high house prices, they are just the symptom. The malaise runs much, much deeper.


Some big players in the system are broken. The system will do fine.

Like most of us who had homes, loans or whatever mid 70s or 80s we are still here to tell the tale.

A bunch of profligate US investment banks and their criminal boards do not constitute the system.

They will burn. So what. The world will keep turning, people will keep making and selling things to each other, the doomsters will still be hoarding their shiny metals that nobody wanted to buy off them at $40,000 an ounce, currencies will be replaced by new currencies and the cycle will start up again.

Stay light on your feet, flexible of mind and don't get tied down to any particular strategy. If you think putting everything you own into Gold is a fabulous plan do that. It might be. But don't be suprised if it isn't. I see it as betting your house on the 500-1 outsider coming home in the National. The odds say once in a while it will win. But would you bet more than a few quid on it happening?




eightiesgirly
[quote name='Red Kharma' date='Dec 1 2007, 03:03 PM' post='871970']
Some big players in the system are broken. The system will do fine.

Like most of us who had homes, loans or whatever mid 70s or 80s we are still here to tell the tale.

Yes we are still here, stronger and better able to cope than most maybe. This time though, I fear it maybe something bigger , the debt boom is so big and in many places. Global, we've never really had that before. I think we are facing a horse of a different colour this time.

I have to look on it as interesting and challenging, with a positive attitute ,I hope to be informed , flexible and adaptable and get through the whole 'fine mess again'. A little smooth running would have been nice though!
leedsproperty
QUOTE (narco @ Dec 1 2007, 02:01 PM) *
Anything on a permanent fixed rate should be ok.

Any borrowing that is variable or turns variable needs to be paid off ASAP.

Base rates are certain to rise at some point, possibly 20% +


Do you mind sharing why you think 20%?
Anders
World economy heading for 'perfect storm'
Alex Brummer, Daily Mail
29 November 2007, 8:16am
Reader comments (7) | Chat | Vote

One of the world's leading financial experts has warned that a 'perfect storm' could be about to hit Western economies.


Dire warning: IMF's Simon Johnson

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There is rising concern that the US economy will slip into recession next year dragging many economies - including Britain - down with it as the global credit crisis worsens.

The Washington-based International Monetary Fund has warned of a 'perfect storm' caused by surging oil prices and the turbulence on financial markets.

Its chief economist, Simon Johnson, said yesterday: 'The combination of the credit crunch and high oil prices could bring a big reduction in international trade from which no one would be immune.'

Mr Johnson cautioned that the current projections for the American economy and those of Europe are 'too optimistic' and would have to be downgraded.

Only last month, in its World Economic Outlook report, the IMF suggested that the US and the West would weather the storms on markets, but lowered its growth forecast for the American economy to 1.9% this year and next from 2.9% in 2006.

The Federal Reserve, the US central bank, joined in the gloom. Its analysis from the American regions said 'mortgage delinquencies are up significantly in many areas' and 'home building is not expected to recover until next year'.

Britain's largest bank said it is 'nervous about how the housing bubble will unwind'. HSBC believes the Bank of England may have to lower interest rates far more aggressively than has been expected if Britain is to avoid a house prices crash.

HSBC says it expects the Bank to lower interest rates by 1.25 percentage points to 4.5% by early 2009 as it seeks to repair the damage to the economy caused by the end of the house price boom and slowing output. It also expects the pound to plummet against the American dollar, dropping back to $1.80 from last night's price of $2.07.

The Bank has warned that credit conditions are tightening, so cash for lending to consumers, housing and industry will shrink.

Evidence of the slowdown on the High Street came from DSG International, which owns Currys and PC World. It warned that sales of items such as refrigerators and washing machines have slowed and is cautious about prospects for next year.

But there was some relief from oil markets yesterday. The price tumbled four per cent to $90 a barrel - earlier this week it was near $100 a barrel - after the US government said stockpiles in America are far larger than expected.
narco
QUOTE (leedsproperty @ Dec 1 2007, 03:23 PM) *
Do you mind sharing why you think 20%?

Because inflation will eventually be completely out of control. You could argue it already is, despite what the CPI or RPI shows.
muttley
QUOTE (narco @ Dec 1 2007, 03:30 PM) *
Because inflation will eventually be completely out of control. You could argue it already is, despite what the CPI or RPI shows.

Do you mind sharing what you mean by "eventually". Also, why are the markets pricing in rate cuts?
narco
QUOTE (muttley @ Dec 1 2007, 03:33 PM) *
Do you mind sharing what you mean by "eventually". Also, why are the markets pricing in rate cuts?

They are cutting interest rates in an attempt to stave off recession whilst bailing out the banking system. This is causing the money supply to inflate rapidly (M3 @ 20% etc...) which in turn inflates the markets.

Eventually they will no longer be able to hide this within their fudged figures.
Anders
QUOTE (Red Kharma @ Dec 1 2007, 03:03 PM) *
Some big players in the system are broken. The system will do fine.

Like most of us who had homes, loans or whatever mid 70s or 80s we are still here to tell the tale.

A bunch of profligate US investment banks and their criminal boards do not constitute the system.

They will burn. So what. The world will keep turning, people will keep making and selling things to each other, the doomsters will still be hoarding their shiny metals that nobody wanted to buy off them at $40,000 an ounce, currencies will be replaced by new currencies and the cycle will start up again.

Stay light on your feet, flexible of mind and don't get tied down to any particular strategy. If you think putting everything you own into Gold is a fabulous plan do that. It might be. But don't be suprised if it isn't. I see it as betting your house on the 500-1 outsider coming home in the National. The odds say once in a while it will win. But would you bet more than a few quid on it happening?



this bit:

The world will keep turning, people will keep making and selling things to each other, the doomsters will still be hoarding their shiny metals that nobody wanted to buy off them at $40,000 an ounce, currencies will be replaced by new currencies and the cycle will start up again.

Stay light on your feet, flexible of mind and don't get tied down to any particular strategy. If you think putting everything you own into Gold is a fabulous plan do that. It might be. But don't be suprised if it isn't. I see it as betting your house on the 500-1 outsider coming home in the National. The odds say once in a while it will win. But would you bet more than a few quid on it happening



I have never heard anything so flat out WRONG in my life.

I have taken steps to protect myself and my family. I have sold my house in the UK at the peak. I have relocated to the UK/USA, with other backup location options depending on what plays out. I am renting a 1 million home at firesale prices. I am completely in bullion and minimal cash, cash kept out of banks. I have taken steps to obtain 3 (legal) passports, and am prepared to relocate again if necessary. I am prepared to BUY a property at firesale prices when the time is right and when I consider any social unrest to be 'contained' LOL. I am completely out of margin, and the stock market, and am VERY thankful for that - example I had YAMANA gold, a shedload on margin too, and it has been going tits up. Glad i am OUT, even if Yamana doubles or trebles, I do not want to suffer the volatility which is NOT good for my health, LOL. I am expecting 2 things - the FED and PPT will keep the plates spinning till at least after the USA election, by which time who knows what lofty heights the DOW will reach. Or alternatively the DOW will fall off a cliff when the ARM resets kick in in earnest in the spring and the banking meltdown accelerates despite operation white noise. Far too many variables, and too much wiggle room for the PTB to delay and 'contain' LOL in the immediate short term. So I am taking no chances and am OUT of gold / silver stocks, this is not the time imho to be greedy and not the time to bet the farm, and not the time to play paper games. I have several employment avenues and am able to adapt, I have minimised spending and waste and am totally out of debt. All in all the shit is hitting the fan and despite the pain and chaos to come I can sleep at night knowing I am protecting my family and I can sleep at night knowing I have the ultimate wealth preserver in hand - physical bullion.

It is the ones who should know better, the ones that KNOW all about the coming meltdown and do NOTHING, who in fact BET THE FARM that all will remain the same, all will be OK, the various Govts will protect me etc etc etc - they are the ones that will rue the day that they took no action.

Like cgnao and eightiesgirl and others I hope and pray that I am dead wrong - however, all I have done is REVERSIBLE and I am comfortable with my decisions.

As far as RK's fearmongering about a debasement of gold prices in fiat currencies I consider that to be almost impossible unless engineered by TPTB via extraordinary acts of force majeure like WAR or MARTIAL LAW, or a combination of both. In fact I see this as highly likely - a get out of jail free card that the elites invariably play. I also think it highly likely that this could in fact all be the time when the elites try and usher in more draconian plans, including currency plans, we will see. We live in interesting times and we are all blessed with the internet and the ability to research what is likely to happen. More fool you if you try and play this game under the old rules - those rules are no more.

Cheers - time to head into town for a pint!

A
Belfast Boy
QUOTE (Anders @ Dec 1 2007, 03:50 PM) *
Cheers - time to head into town for a pint!

Amen to that wink.gif
Anders
cgnao said

They want to save the system, but they can't.



I agree - however the elites imho have been planning a new world currency for many many decades and of course, ordo ab chao, now is probably the time during which they will try and implement their plan, 2008-2012. I am still highly spooked with how the whole debacle was allowed/helped/engineered to play out, far-fetched maybe, but I honestly feel that this has somehow been planned and actively managed and given nudges here and there and now we are faced with a situation which the elites will regard, planned or not, as the perfect OPPORTUNITY to advance their agenda.




They are and will continue lending ever growing amounts on ever easier terms, accepting ever lower quality, illiquid securities as collateral at inflated prices. This is and will continue making the money supply grow exponentially, which by immutable economic law is hyperinflationary.

The unstoppable, vicious process they have set in motion will end in the destruction of the purchasing power of all currencies, global contraction of economic activity, mass unemployment, dramatic decline in the standard of living, social unrest, total loss of public confidence in governments, central banks and all currencies and ultimately a return to the gold standard by popular demand.



Again agreed - the only possible currency that will ever work imho is a gold-based digital currency. Existing gold will be revalued, and all countries start again from scratch based upon various mathematical stitch-up BS formulae. I have read several think-tank papers over the years, read comments by IMF and CFR/Bilderburg economists alluding to such, read several scenarios whereby this could all be put into action.

But first of course they must have the plebs in so much PAIN that the plebs DEMAND salvation and respite - at which point they reveal their plans.

Problem - reaction - solution.

The eproblem is either engineered or allowed to happen, the reaction from the masses is predictable, the solution was always on the cards before the problem even surfaced.

Whether I am right or wrong, I have done the best I can do for my family and that is all I can do.

Cheers!

A
Anders
QUOTE (Belfast Boy @ Dec 1 2007, 03:59 PM) *
Amen to that wink.gif



Hey, I met George once at his bar, Besties, in Hermosa Beach, California, back in the late 70s/early 80s I think. He was out there playing for the LA team - bumped into Clyde Best too, LOL! George was playing pool, quite pissed (natch) at the time, and he was with THE most stunning blonde perfect 10 super-tanned beach bunny I had ever seen since arriving in LA. She was all over him, he couldn't pot a ball, LOL. All the stories are true. RIP George.

Cheers!
Errol
QUOTE (Red Kharma @ Dec 1 2007, 03:03 PM) *
Like most of us who had homes, loans or whatever mid 70s or 80s we are still here to tell the tale.


What about the people in 1929?

Just a note about 'everything be alright in the end'. It may well be fine 'in the end' but, before we reach that end, I expect to see an implosion on a scale not seen since 1929 and probably another major war (or two).
cgnao
Straight from the horse's mouth: it's a calamity, they can't stop it and they're being forced to take desperate action.

Please see my signature as I am tired to type.

http://www.reuters.com/article/reutersEdge...643456120070816
When does a crisis become a calamity?
Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:19pm EDT

St. Louis Fed President William Poole was the first policy-maker to speak since the mortgage and general credit market crisis worsened late last week.

Poole said in an interview on Wednesday with Bloomberg TV that only a "calamity" would justify an interest-rate cut now, and that "no one has called up and said the sky is falling."


http://www.reuters.com/article/bondsNews/i...032706020071130
Fed won't let market upset become calamity - Poole
Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:52pm EST

"The Fed does not have the desire or tools to prevent widespread losses in a particular sector but should not sit by while a financial upset becomes a financial calamity affecting the entire economy," St. Louis Federal Reserve Bank President William Poole said at a conference sponsored by the Cato Institute.


http://www.reuters.com/article/bondsNews/i...30?rpc=401&
Poole-moral hazard concern won't affect Fed policy
Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:12pm EST

WASHINGTON, Nov 30 (Reuters) - St. Louis Federal Reserve Bank President William Poole said on Friday he would not let concerns about "moral hazard" prevent him from backing further interest cuts in benchmark Fed interest rates.

"I would not want people in the markets to believe that I, at any rate, would be so concerned about the moral hazard argument that I wouldn't possibly advocate a 25 basis point or a 50 basis point cut, or whatever might be on the table," Poole told reporters after a speech to the Cato Institute.

Moral hazard is a concept that markets might take greater risks on the belief that government policy would protect them from suffering losses. (Reporting by Mark Felsenthal, Editing by Diane Craft)

Ash4781
http://www.sundayherald.com/business/busin...1874429.0.0.php

QUOTE
ROYAL BANK of Scotland is expected to announce write-downs of between £500 million and £1.9 billion from the global credit squeeze this week, with rumours circulating that a slippage in second-half earnings could also be confirmed.

When RBS's long-awaited moment of truth arrives on Thursday, most brokers believe that chief executive Sir Fred Goodwin will write off some £500m from the value of loans linked to American mortgages caught in the subprime debacle. Some analysts are much more pessimistic, with the team at Sanford C Bernstein believing that the total could be as much as £1.9bn, despite the group's cautious approach to notortiously dangerous areas such as collateralised debt obligations (CDOs).

The second-half earnings concerns, meanwhile, stem from problems in capital markets as well as the US downturn. If they are borne out, it will be the first such setback since Goodwin took the helm in 2000.

The bad news could be rounded off with the possibility of further write-downs as RBS managers get their feet under the table at ABN Amro, the Dutch giant acquired through a £50bn consortium takeover earlier in the year.

Brokers at Panmure Gordon point out that ABN Amro was a major player in the complex derivatives market and estimated that it held total positions of a startling £1 trillion at the time of its acquisition, although it is likely many of these positions have since been unwound. In the worst case scenario, the debts to which they refer could have become worthless, making them impossible to pass on and therefore irrecoupable.

The uncertainties have put the stock market's rumour factory into overdrive, with gossips claiming that RBS could be poised to sell its £3bn stake in Bank of China or announce a dividend cut to build up its cash position.

There have even been suggestions that Goodwin could tap shareholders with a fundraising rights issue of new shares, despite the likelihood of an icy reception from investors who have seen their investments plunge from 725p a share earlier this year to below 400p at one time in recent weeks.

While the company has declined to comment ahead of the update, it has pointed out that it would have had to make any major announcements long before now to prevent a false market developing in its shares.

Officially, this week's update is purely a trading statement to cover prospects for the group's vast spread of activities covering Europe, Asia and the US and taking in retail banking, wealth management and corporate banking.

But it would be surprising if the RBS board does not take the opportunity to provide a health check on the state of the Global Banking Markets division and the anticipated need for write-downs.

Followers hope they will stress that the troubled CDOs area - which covers packages of loans of varying risk - represents a relatively small part of the division and that its loans are valued on a daily basis to avoid the potential for any future black holes in the balance sheet.

Even pessimists believe that for the year as a whole, RBS remains on course to deliver a healthy profits increase before taking account of its debt exposure, with consensus estimates suggesting a likely increase from £9.1bn to £9.9bn despite a downturn at the American Citizens Bank.

And most still expect directors to boost confidence by declaring a fat increase in the dividend from 25.77p to upwards of 33p for the full year.

Given the prospect of sell-offs, however, including Angel Trains, numerous properties and the rumours about the Bank of China stake, there is much debate about what it will mean for RBS's profitability in future.

Super-bears at Panmure Gordon have suggested that next year's profits could dip to as low as £7.8bn. But most others still expect a total of around £10.8bn and analysts at Exane BNP Paribas, Lansbanki and Oriel are among those to tell clients to buy shares in RBS in the belief that any bad news is already discounted in the current share price.


What's lurking at ABN Amro ?


cgnao
This is a loss, not a writedown. Look at the number.

This is the mark of the derivative beast.

http://www.reuters.com/article/newIssuesNe...01?rpc=401&
DUESSELDORF, Germany, Dec 1 (Reuters) - German state-backed regional lender WestLB will make a loss of up to 1 billion euros ($1.5 billion) this year, business weekly Focus reported on Saturday, citing banking sources.

The magazine said the bank, which is suffering from the crisis in global credit markets on top of a series of embarrassing trading losses this year, expected to make a loss of at least 800 million euros and possibly as high 1 billion.

It did not specify what kind of loss it meant.
zinny01
QUOTE (Noel @ Dec 1 2007, 10:38 PM) *
As someone stated a few pages ago, the market for a lot of the synthetic products is still alive and well. Volumes in single and indices CDS products (and I assume tranches, although I don't work with this desk), although down, is still substantial. I am not disputing that some markets are buggered, just not all of them. That is the point I was making.
You can still trade CDS on banks such as Northern Crock, A&L etc.



Yep and if you read my point which you first replied to, I'm not interested in CDS's. I'm not disputing that there is a market for these and it still functions. I want to know about CDO's with MBS components.

I can see that things might not be so busy in fixed income (or is that f**ked income as one of my colleagues suggested a few days ago) based on the time you can spend on here replying to an idiot like myself.

laugh.gif
Anders
From TF - This is like someone losing all their money at casino and demanding their money back because they need it.

This is exactly what you would expect from inexperienced government officials. In other word, they too have not learned to "mark it to market." As the reality that the loss is "real" (whether they accept it or not), starts to sink in, the psychological damage to others in similar situation will be crushing. Eventually, this will make Northern Rock pale in comparison, as the size of deposits are an order of magnitude higher. The question, however, is will this matter in the near term.

Florida Governments Reject Idea of Accepting Losses on Pool

By David Evans

Dec. 1 (Bloomberg) -- A newly formed advisory panel composed of Florida school and local government officials with money frozen in a state-run investment pool said they won't accept a return of less than 100 percent of their investment.

Members of the new panel, on a conference call late yesterday with officials from the agency that runs the fund, rejected a proposal to survey pool participants to determine whether they would accept as little as 90 cents on the dollar of their deposits in order to access their money in December.

``The very fact that you're out here talking to us about taking less than 100 percent is in my mind unacceptable,'' said MaryEllen Elia, superintendent of Hillsborough County Public Schools, which has $573 million tied up in the pool, more than any other school district. ``You need to figure out how to make the taxpayers in Florida whole. It isn't going to be fixed by asking us to take less than what we put in there.''

School districts, towns and cities across Florida were cut off from their money after the State Board of Administration, manager of the Local Government Investment Pool, halted withdrawals Nov. 29 to stem a run on the fund. Participants pulled out almost half the pool's $27 billion in assets after learning it held $1.5 billion of downgraded and defaulted debt tainted by the collapse of the subprime mortgage market.

Thousands of schools, towns and fire departments across the U.S. keep their cash in state- and county-run public accounts. Modeled after private money-market funds, the funds are supposed to invest in safe, liquid, short-term debt.

Bursting Bubble

The downgrades in Florida show the far-reaching effects of the bursting of the housing bubble as complex investment vehicles once marketed as high-yielding, safe havens are now backed by collateral investors don't want.

Late yesterday, the board disclosed that an additional $1 billion was withdrawn from the pool just before the freeze, reducing its size to $14 billion, a 48 percent decline for the month. On Nov. 29, state officials said the pool held $15 billion.

Representatives of pool participants from schools, cities and counties said they would press Governor Charlie Crist and the Legislature next week for a cash infusion. Kevin SigRist, deputy executive director of the State Board of Administration, said the board can't promise to make them whole.

``We don't ever want to be in a situation here at the SBA where we are somehow issuing guarantees or suggestions that everyone will get dollar for dollar,'' said SigRist, who substituted on the call for executive director Coleman Stipanovich.

Meeting Next Week

The Florida board's three trustees -- Crist, state Chief Financial Officer Alex Sink and Attorney General Bill McCollum - - will meet again on Dec. 4 to consider the crisis.

No call participants from the State Board of Administration could say if the board had selected an independent financial adviser for the pool, as the trustees ordered Nov. 29.

The sometimes raucous telephone conference call, which lasted more than two hours into the early evening, ended with a decision to poll pool investors on how much cash they absolutely need to withdraw from the pool over the next 90 days, as well as how much they plan to deposit.

By freezing the Florida fund, officials left governments without ready access to cash they are accustomed to drawing upon for routine expenditures. The pool was the largest of its kind in the U.S. at $27 billion before the unprecedented withdrawals.

The Jefferson County school district was forced to take out a short-term loan to cover payroll for the 220 teachers and other employees in the system after $2.7 million it held in the pool was frozen. At least five other districts also obtained last-minute loans, said Wayne Blanton, executive director of the Florida School Boards Association.

``The unthinkable and the unimaginable have just happened here in Florida,'' said Hal Wilson, chief financial officer of the Jefferson County school district.
Anders
Coming to a UK bank near you...



Coast Bank (Florida) declares BK in forum [Breaking]

Bottom-dollar buyout end of line for Coast Bank

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20071...SINESS/71201....

BRADENTON -- Coast Bank is gone.

First Banks Inc. of St. Louis completed its purchase Friday of floundering Coast, paying a rock-bottom price of $12.1 million, or $1.86 per share.

That is $10 million less than the First Bank's original offer of $3.40 per share, a sign that Coast's loan problems had deepened in recent weeks.

First Banks will move quickly to jettison the Coast name, which some say represents one of the biggest business busts in Manatee County history.

Coast's 20 offices will adopt the new owner's brand on Dec. 10, said First Banks President Terry McCarthy.

"We will be marketing First Bank's 100-year history in banking, making existing customers comfortable and pursuing customers who have left to try and bring them back," he said in an interview.

McCarthy said it will take some time to clean up the loan problems and legal issues it inherits with Coast.

"It's not a short-term project," he said. "We see it as a multi-year project, but we are very confident we will work through those issues."

Coast's shareholders voted Monday to sell to First Banks, even though they did not know what the final price would be.

In the merger agreement signed in August, $1.86 per share was the lowest the price could sink before either bank could back out of the deal.

The 71/2-year-old bank had little choice but to sell at any price, given its crippled financial condition and damaged reputation since the loan crisis was revealed in January.
Anders
Coming to the UK on Gordon's watch...


Impending Destruction of the US Economy


by Dr. Paul Craig Roberts

Global Research, December 1, 2007



Dr. Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the US Treasury for Economic Policy in the Reagan administration. He is credited with curing stagflation and eliminating “Phillips curve” trade-offs between employment and inflation, an achievement now on the verge of being lost by the worst economic mismanagement in US history.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?con...va&aid=7508

Hubris and arrogance are too ensconced in Washington for policymakers to be aware of the economic policy trap in which they have placed the US economy. If the subprime mortgage meltdown is half as bad as predicted, low US interest rates will be required in order to contain the crisis. But if the dollar’s plight is half as bad as predicted, high US interest rates will be required if foreigners are to continue to hold dollars and to finance US budget and trade deficits.

Which will Washington sacrifice, the domestic financial system and over-extended homeowners or its ability to finance deficits?

The answer seems obvious. Everything will be sacrificed in order to protect Washington’s ability to borrow abroad. Without the ability to borrow abroad, Washington cannot conduct its wars of aggression, and Americans cannot continue to consume $800 billion dollars more each year than the economy produces.

A few years ago the euro was worth 85 cents. Today it is worth $1.48. This is an enormous decline in the exchange value of the US dollar. Foreigners who finance the US budget and trade deficits have experienced a huge drop in the value of their dollar holdings. The interest rate on US Treasury bonds does not come close to compensating foreigners for the decline in the value of the dollar against other traded currencies. Investment returns from real estate and equities do not offset the losses from the decline in the dollar’s value.

China holds over one trillion dollars, and Japan almost one trillion, in dollar-denominated assets. Other countries have lesser but still substantial amounts. As the US dollar is the reserve currency, the entire world’s investment portfolio is over-weighted in dollars.

No country wants to hold a depreciating asset, and no country wants to acquire more depreciating assets. In order to reassure itself, Wall Street claims that foreign countries are locked into accumulating dollars in order to protect the value of their existing dollar holdings. But this is utter nonsense. The US dollar has lost 60% of its value during the current administration. Obviously, countries are not locked into accumulating dollars.

The reason the dollar has not completely collapsed is that there is no clear alternative as reserve currency. The euro is a currency without a country. It is the monetary unit of the European Union, but the countries of Europe have not surrendered their sovereignty to the EU. Moreover, the UK, a member of the EU, retains the British pound. The fact that a currency as politically exposed as the euro can rise in value so rapidly against the US dollar is powerful evidence of the weakness of the US dollar.

Japan and China have willingly accumulated dollars as the counterpart of their penetration and capture of US domestic markets. Japan and China have viewed the productive capacity and wealth created in their domestic economies by the success of their exports as compensation for the decline in the value of their dollar holdings. However, both countries have seen the writing on the wall, ignored by Washington and American economists: By offshoring production for US markets, the US has no prospect of closing its trade deficit. The offshored production of US firms counts as imports when it returns to the US to be marketed. The more US production moves abroad, the less there is to export and the higher imports rise.

Japan and China, indeed, the entire world, realize that they cannot continue forever to give Americans real goods and services in exchange for depreciating paper dollars. China is endeavoring to turn its development inward and to rely on its potentially huge domestic market. Japan is pinning hopes on participating in Asia’s economic development.

The dollar’s decline has resulted from foreigners accumulating new dollars at a lower rate. They still accumulate dollars, but fewer. As new dollars are still being produced at high rates, their value has dropped.

If foreigners were to stop accumulating new dollars, the dollar’s value would plummet. If foreigners were to reduce their existing holdings of dollars, superpower America would instantly disappear.

Foreigners have continued to accumulate dollars in the expectation that sooner or later Washington would address its trade and budget deficits. However, now these deficits seem to have passed the point of no return.

The sharp decline in the dollar has not closed the trade deficit by increasing exports and decreasing imports. Offshoring prevents the possibility of exports reducing the trade deficit, and Americans are now dependent on imports (including offshored production) for which there are no longer any domestically produced alternatives. The US trade deficit will close when foreigners cease to finance it.

The budget deficit cannot be closed by taxation without driving up unemployment and poverty. American median family incomes have experienced no real increase during the 21st century. Moreover, if the huge bonuses paid to CEOs for offshoring their corporations’ production and to Wall Street for marketing subprime derivatives are removed from the income figures, Americans have experienced a decline in real income. Some studies, such as the Economic Mobility Project, find long-term declines in the real median incomes of some US population groups and a decline in upward mobility.

The situation may be even more dire. Recent work by Susan Houseman concludes that US statistical data systems, which were set in place prior to the development of offshoring, are counting some foreign production as part of US productivity and GDP growth, thus overstating the actual performance of the US economy.

The falling dollar has pushed oil to $100 a barrel, which in turn will drive up other prices. The falling dollar means that the imports and offshored production on which Americans are dependent will rise in price. This is not a formula to produce a rise in US real incomes.

In the 21st century, the US economy has been driven by consumers going deeper in debt. Consumption fueled by increases in indebtedness received its greatest boost from Fed chairman Alan Greenspan’s low interest rate policy. Greenspan covered up the adverse effects of offshoring on the US economy by engineering a housing boom. The boom created employment in construction and financial firms and pushed up home prices, thus creating equity for consumers to spend to keep consumer demand growing.

This source of US economic growth is exhausted and imploding. The full consequences of the housing bust remain to be realized. American consumers lack discretionary income and can pay higher taxes only by reducing their consumption. The service industries, which have provided the only source of new jobs in the 21st century, are already experiencing falling demand. A tax increase would cause widespread distress.

As John Maynard Keynes and his followers made clear, a tax increase on a recessionary economy is a recipe for falling tax revenues as well as economic hardship.

Superpower America is a ship of fools in denial of their plight. While offshoring kills American economic prospects, “free market economists” sing its praises. While war imposes enormous costs on a bankrupt country, neoconservatives call for more war, and Republicans and Democrats appropriate war funds which can only be obtained by borrowing abroad.

By focusing America on war in the Middle East, the purpose of which is to guarantee Israel’s territorial expansion, the executive and legislative branches, along with the media, have let slip the last opportunities the US had to put its financial house in order. We have arrived at the point where it is no longer bold to say that nothing now can be done. Unless the rest of the world decides to underwrite our economic rescue, the chips will fall where they may.
Bloo Loo
QUOTE (Anders @ Dec 2 2007, 08:46 AM) *
Coming to the UK on Gordon's watch...


Impending Destruction of the US Economy


US -- sum up- rock and hard place- it appears the US has decided.

UK, we are at the decision point now, Uk people or UK banks? which to save?
Injin
QUOTE (Bloo Loo @ Dec 2 2007, 09:00 AM) *
US -- sum up- rock and hard place- it appears the US has decided.

UK, we are at the decision point now, Uk people or UK banks? which to save?


Banks, obviously.
narco
Chart Service update: Gold to drop down to at least 755 this week?

http://www.chart-service.com/Commo/gold.png

** sorry this should be in the gold thread **
Errol
$755 would be excellent!
narco
QUOTE (Errol @ Dec 2 2007, 10:14 AM) *
$755 would be excellent!

Cyclist from the Kitco forums believes a low is coming around the 7th. One to watch.



Anders
Foreign banks may come to the rescue of ISTC

A group of international banks including US group Goldman Sachs may step in to rescue International Securities Trading Corporation (ISTC), the Dublin-based finance house facing collapse with debts of €871 million.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2007/1130/
1196375036123.html
Walton Goggins
QUOTE (Anders @ Dec 2 2007, 10:23 AM) *
This is exactly what you would expect from inexperienced government officials...
Thousands of schools, towns and fire departments across the U.S. keep their cash in state- and county-run public accounts. Modeled after private money-market funds, the funds are supposed to invest in safe, liquid, short-term debt.
``The unthinkable and the unimaginable have just happened here in Florida,'' said Hal Wilson, chief financial officer of the Jefferson County school district.


From Florida to....Norway.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/02/world/eu...amp;oref=slogin

Thank goodness it is unthinkable and unimaginable Cheshire County Council or any UK council would do suchlike.
Is it not. unsure.gif
Methinkshe
QUOTE (Walton Goggins @ Dec 2 2007, 06:36 PM) *
From Florida to....Norway.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/02/world/eu...amp;oref=slogin

Thank goodness it is unthinkable and unimaginable Cheshire County Council or any UK council would do suchlike.
Is it not. unsure.gif


Absolutely! Our council tax is totally safe!
cgnao
They want to save the US dollar, but they can't.

This is 100% correct, guaranteed.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/busi...icle2988001.ece
From The Times
December 3, 2007
Dollar faces new sell-off if Gulf states end greenback pegs
Gary Duncan, Economics Editor

Foreign exchange markets are on alert this week for the embattled dollar to face a further, severe sell-off after key talks between the Middle East’s Gulf states that could lead to them scrapping their currencies’ pegs to the greenback.


Rulers of the six nations of the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) meet today and tomorrow in the Qatari capital of Doha amid significant pressures to sever their currency ties to the falling dollar, which is fuelling record inflation in their countries.

Officially, the GCC states have insisted that the key currency issue is not on the agenda for the rulers’ summit talks. However, there is intense speculation that mounting economic and social strains inflicted by the currency pegs could see them scrapped, or the Gulf currencies revalued, either at the meetings or within weeks of them.
cgnao
This is the mark of the beast.

They want to save Citi, but they can't.

This is 100% correct, guaranteed.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/12022007/busin...deck_471384.htm

December 2, 2007 -- Investors are applauding how quickly Citigroup patched up its tattered ledger with a $7.5 billion Arab bailout - but fears are still rampant on Wall Street that the banking giant will have to line up a second massive cash infusion to save its much-prized dividend.

Meanwhile, the country's largest bank continues to try to navigate the credit meltdown without a permanent chairman and CEO.

In fact, the CEO search has stumbled along for so long that some inside the bank have taken to hope aloud that Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson will bolt Washington, D.C., and return to New York on a white horse to save Citi.

...

Citigroup's huge losses on junk mortgages and other bad bets - now approaching $15 billion - could drain the balance sheet so quickly that another large cash investment - like last week's surprise infusion from oil-rich Abu Dhabi - will be needed by the new management team before they could even start the rescue plan, including selling assets.



cgnao
They know what's coming and can't stop it.

This is 100% correct, guaranteed.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/bankingFinan...03?rpc=401&
BoI Exec Sees Crisis for a Bank as 'Inevitable'
Mon Dec 3, 2007 6:02am GMT

SIENA, Italy (Reuters) - A multinational bank is bound to get into a crisis which regulators will have to handle and so cooperation between watchdogs needs to increase, Bank of Italy Director-General Fabrizio Saccomanni said on Saturday.

"What has not happened yet, but inevitably will happen, is the crisis of a bank operating in more than one country," Saccomanni said at a presentation.

He said efforts to harmonise regulation and find rules for such an emergency were "in many circles ... considered insufficient."

But Saccomanni said he felt progress on cooperation was underestimated and "international watchdogs ... are not completely unprepared."

"Opposition to coordination does not come from central banks, but from political powers ... with the exception of (Italian Economy Minister Tommaso) Padoa-Schioppa, who is very European," he said.

Padoa-Schioppa sent a letter last week to European Union ministers urging the area's financial authorities to step up cooperation in order to improve their response to market crises such as the current credit market turmoil.
cgnao
Smoke, mirrors, lies, deception. Very few understand how serious the situation is. Central banks have lost control of interest rates and money supply.

Meanwhile, the hyperinflationary monetary holocaust continues.

This is 100% correct, guaranteed.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtm.../cnrates103.xml
Pleas for rate cut as interbank loans dive

By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, International Business Editor
Last Updated: 6:27am GMT 03/12/2007

The sterling interbank market has collapsed at the fastest rate in modern history, prompting pleas for immediate rate cuts from a chorus of top British economists.

Office for National Statistics data sourced to the Bank of England shows the volume of market loans in the banking system plunged from £640bn at the onset of the credit crunch in August to £249bn by the end of September, suggesting British lenders have been hit even harder than US banks in relative terms. Total sterling assets dropped from £3,244bn to £2,876bn.

"A market that has taken 30 years to build has completely imploded in a matter of months. Lenders have been squeezed savagely. We've moved into a different era," he said.

Mr Congdon called for a half-point cut to the interest rate to 5.25pc when the Monetary Policy Committee meets this week, warning that the M4 money supply is slowing fast and might contract over the next six months.

Patrick Minford, a professor at Cardiff University, called for a three-quarter point cut, accusing the MPC of "standing idly by" as three-month Libor spreads rocketed by 75 basis points - a severe tightening of credit.

"I regard the Bank's behaviour as highly irresponsible, neglecting a century of monetary teaching from Bagehot on. It is time for some sense to prevail. The Bank look like fools," he said.

The hard-hitting comments were contained in the minutes of the Shadow MPC (SMPC), a group of economists who take the pulse of the economy prior to each MPC vote under the aegis of the Institute of Economic Affairs. SMPC member Peter Warburton, from Economic Perspectives, called for a half-point cut, with further easing in the New Year.

"A profoundly deflationary credit downturn has taken hold," he said. "Recent weeks' dramatic events have infected urgency into the situation."

David Smith, a professor at Derby University and chair of the SMPC, defended the Bank's wait-and-see approach. "The MPC is walking along a narrow and dangerous Alpine ridge in a blinding blizzard. They can't see anything," he said. "People assume that the risk is a credit implosion leading to a second Depression, but there is also a serious risk on the other side of the ridge in terms of inflation.

"The British economy was red hot in the third quarter. RPIX inflation is at 3.1pc. If you look at oil prices, commodities or gold, there are many signs this is like the early 1970s," he said.

"Has the economy suddenly and totally fallen out of bed? We don't know yet, and it would be dangerous at this stage to bet it has. There is a risk rates will have to go up next year, not down," he said.

Most City economists expect the nine-strong MPC to hold rates steady when it meets on Thursday. Sir John Gieve, the Bank's Deputy Governor, and David Blanchflower voted for a quarter-point cut in November, fearing that the property market was starting to buckle.

Credit conditions have tightened abruptly since then, driving Libor back to crisis levels of 6.60pc. The Nationwide house price index dropped 0.8pc in November, the steepest fall in 12 years.
cgnao
This is the mark of the derivative beast.

Exponential losses are forcing central banks to inject exponential liquidity to try and prevent the collapse of the international monetary system.

This is a losing battle and the time bought now is being paid for by hyperinflation.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...mp;refer=canada
Moody's May Cut Ratings on $105 Billion of SIVs

By Shannon D. Harrington

Dec. 3 (Bloomberg) -- Moody's Investors Service is preparing the biggest credit rating cuts since subprime mortgages contaminated the bond market, foreshadowing losses for investments that pay Florida teachers and money market funds.

Moody's may lower ratings on $105 billion of debt sold by structured investment vehicles after the net asset values of 20 SIVs sponsored by firms including New York-based Citigroup Inc. declined to 55 percent from 71 percent a month ago, Moody's said in a statement Nov. 30. The assets were valued at 102 percent in June.

``The assets that SIVs hold are continuing to decline in value,'' said Ira Jersey, an interest-rate strategist in New York at Credit Suisse Group, Switzerland's second-biggest bank by assets. ``As they do that it's creating more problems for the holders.''

School districts, towns and cities across Florida were denied access to their money after the State Board of Administration halted withdrawals from the Local Government Investment Pool on Nov. 29 to stem a run on the fund, which had $2 billion in SIVs and other debt tainted by the subprime collapse, state records show.

Downgrades would make it more difficult for SIVs, companies that use short-term debt to invest in higher-yielding assets, to obtain financing. Three of the funds defaulted in the past four months. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson is working with Citigroup, New York-based JPMorgan Chase & Co. and Bank of America Corp. in Charlotte, North Carolina, to form an $80 billion fund to help bail them out.
cgnao
They want to avoid the fire sale at any cost, but they can't.

When the first significant fire sale of mortgage backed securities eventually begins, we'll see real fireworks.

This is 100% correct, guaranteed.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...&refer=bond
Florida Says Unfreezing Local Fund Would Spark a `Fire Sale'

By David Evans

Dec. 3 (Bloomberg) -- Florida schools and towns with money frozen in a state-run investment account are unlikely to get their cash back tomorrow, when officials meet to discuss a crisis prompted by withdrawals that drained almost half of the fund's $27 billion in assets, a policy officer said.

``If we reopen the window without limitations on Tuesday, and we see behavior like we've seen up to now, there's simply no way to meet that demand without having a fire sale on assets,'' said James Francis, senior policy officer for the State Board of Administration, manager of the Local Government Investment Pool.

Officials raised the possibility of paying less than 100 cents on the dollar to governments seeking cash in a conference call with participants Nov. 30, a day after freezing withdrawals. The board also hired BlackRock Inc., the largest U.S. publicly traded money manager, as an adviser.
newbie
But the ABX index seems to have rallied / bounced. Some tranches are up by about 50% from their recent all time lows. ABX on Markit
cgnao
QUOTE (newbie @ Dec 3 2007, 05:07 PM) *
But the ABX index seems to have rallied / bounced. Some tranches are up by about 50% from their recent all time lows. ABX on Markit




100% correct, guaranteed.
cgnao
I am the Derivative Beast. Lower your yields and hyperinflate your money supply. I will add your banking and financial distinctiveness to my own. Your monetary system will adapt to service me. Resistance is futile.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...&refer=home
Montana, Connecticut Hold SIVs Downgraded, Reviewed by Moody's

By David Evans

Dec. 3 (Bloomberg) -- Montana and Connecticut state-run investment funds hold debt tainted by the subprime mortgage collapse that was cut or put under review by Moody's Investors Service, leaving local governments vulnerable to losses.

Moody's lowered its rating on commercial paper issued by the Orion Finance structured investment vehicle, or SIV, to ``Not Prime'' on Nov. 30, saying its net asset value is inconsistent with Orion's former Prime-1 rating. Montana owns $50 million of the paper. Moody's put another $105 billion of SIVs on review for a possible downgrade, of which Montana holds $80 million and Connecticut holds $300 million, records show.

``This just reinforces the fact that we have a serious issue,'' said State Senator Dave Lewis, of Helena, Montana, a member of the Legislative Audit Committee.

Schools, fire departments and towns across the U.S. that use state- and county-run funds like a bank account are seeing the far-ranging effects of the housing slump, as complex investments once sold as high-yielding, safe havens are now backed by collateral investors don't want. Modeled after private money-market funds, the investment pools are supposed to hold safe, liquid, short-term debt.
Um_Bongo
It seems that the banks are hitting the government first. I wonder if this is intentional?
vicmac64
QUOTE (Um_Bongo @ Dec 3 2007, 08:21 PM) *
It seems that the banks are hitting the government first. I wonder if this is intentional?

I think you have a good point there - bail us out - but I think we need a few trials concerning the banks and bankers - and I think there a few greedy obscenely wealthy men that need to be wearing an orange jumpsuit for the rest of their lives.
leedsproperty
I enjoy reading this post as it provides an easy news blog for the credit crunch more than anything.

I dont see how anyone can say for definite what will happen, despite the 100% guaranteed doom, but it might be useful to speculate on the order of events.

For example we will certainly need to see the 'fire sale' of CDOs etc before we see anything further surely? If this is true then what comes next?
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