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cgnao
QUOTE(cgnao @ Sep 10 2007, 04:40 PM) *
Yes. Precisely. I was hoping it would not get to this stage but it looks like there is no way out now.

Apart from the constant stream of bad news (despite the spin and doctoring by the powers that be), many indicators including but not limited to money supply, repos, interbank rates, gold are behaving in an unprecedentedly volatile and increasingly worrying fashion.


I forgot to add that it is different, but not due to any conspiracy theories. It's just that never before in the history of humanity so much debt was issued in unbacked fiat currencies. The temptation of inflating it away to sort the mess out is just too great.
Methinkshe
QUOTE(cgnao @ Sep 10 2007, 05:40 PM) *
Yes. Precisely. I was hoping it would not get to this stage but it looks like there is no way out now.

Apart from the constant stream of bad news (despite the spin and doctoring by the powers that be), many indicators including but not limited to money supply, repos, interbank rates, gold are behaving in an unprecedentedly volatile and increasingly worrying fashion.


Okay, thanks for that clarification. I have more than a little sympathy for your view. Most people take a linear view i.e as when an aeroplane takes off, travels a few hundred miles and lands. Very few people recognise the potential for a stall and a sudden drop out of the air, yet this is not an impossibility. The warning signs are there. I'm still undecided about whether this will be the big one. Got my fingers burnt thinking that the last HPC would be the big one, the one that would lead to a globale financial implosion, yet there was one more cycle of reflation left. Have to admit that this time, things really ARE different and it is much more feasible that the stall point has been reached. But it takes some swallowing to consider a global financial meltdown. Keep posting - I find your posts interesting and whatever others may say re what they perceive to be your excesses, there is nothing to stop them from taking a balanced view by reading posts that take an opposing position. I rather like the extreme types of posts - they help one to arrive at a more informed balance than those that never shift from the mid-point.
cgnao
QUOTE(Methinkshe @ Sep 10 2007, 04:50 PM) *
Okay, thanks for that clarification. I have more than a little sympathy for your view. Most people take a linear view i.e as when an aeroplane takes off, travels a few hundred miles and lands. Very few people recognise the potential for a stall and a sudden drop out of the air, yet this is not an impossibility. The warning signs are there. I'm still undecided about whether this will be the big one. Got my fingers burnt thinking that the last HPC would be the big one, the one that would lead to a globale financial implosion, yet there was one more cycle of reflation left. Have to admit that this time, things really ARE different and it is much more feasible that the stall point has been reached. But it takes some swallowing to consider a global financial meltdown. Keep posting - I find your posts interesting and whatever others may say re what they perceive to be your excesses, there is nothing to stop them from taking a balanced view by reading posts that take an opposing position. I rather like the extreme types of posts - they help one to arrive at a more informed balance than those that never shift from the mid-point.


I expose my view in an exceedingly provocative way on purpose. I believe it is the only way to stimulate indipendent thought in average people who have been dumbed down by the dullness and political correctness of nowadays mainstream media (which is also heavily edited and manipulated by the elites in control).




the_duke_of_hazzard
Surely even if things "return" to normal, the appetite for risk will be much reduced in any case, as no bank will want to be caught with its trousers down in future. So the lending market here is screwed anyway.
grumpy-old-man
a specialist on bloomberg today said "the current banking crisis could last for weeks, months or even years", well, that's narrowed it down a bit then. blink.gif

summing up bloomberg this week for you all, they have been mainly saying words like

"we don't know" "recession" "slowdown" "crisis" "we don't know" sub prime exposure" "we don't know"

biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
Bear_necessities
Having looked back at Cgnao's posts, I have to conclude he has been doom-mongering for 2 and a bit years - SOME of what he says may be partially true, but the reality will be somewhere in between him and the 'oh its going to be ok' brigade.

As for hyperinflation, thats a pipe dream IMHO. The actions of the BoE says to me that we are going to see big time asset price deflation and recession. How they deal with that in the longer term will dictate whether we have something akin to the late 80's uk style or japanese style.

Bn
cgnao
QUOTE(Bear_necessities @ Sep 10 2007, 05:40 PM) *
As for hyperinflation, thats a pipe dream IMHO.


Do you know who Richard Russell is? No? Then read this

http://bigpicture.typepad.com/comments/200..._words_on_.html
QUOTE
I have read Dick Russell on/off for over 35 years. He identified the major bull market bottom in 1974 and the bull market top in 1999.


Now see what he says:

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/stor...amp;siteid=mkwt
QUOTE
I note Dow Theory Letter's Richard Russell led off his Friday comments with a statement of fundamentalist gold sympathy: "The latest is that yesterday December gold (this is the active month) finally closed above the psychological 700 mark. Now it only remains for gold to advance to a new high above the 2006 high of 728 ... Classic paintings, gem stones, diamonds, collectibles, seaside real estate, and gold are rising steadily in terms of paper. The incredible fraud of fiat currency goes on and on. It will continue on until well, until it morphs into dreaded hyper-inflation."
Methinkshe
QUOTE(Bear_necessities @ Sep 10 2007, 06:40 PM) *
Having looked back at Cgnao's posts, I have to conclude he has been doom-mongering for 2 and a bit years - SOME of what he says may be partially true, but the reality will be somewhere in between him and the 'oh its going to be ok' brigade.

As for hyperinflation, thats a pipe dream IMHO. The actions of the BoE says to me that we are going to see big time asset price deflation and recession. How they deal with that in the longer term will dictate whether we have something akin to the late 80's uk style or japanese style.

Bn


If politics win over the markets then hyperinflation will ensue. If the markets win, then deflation is the natural course. My problem is that I have no trust in politicians not to take the short term path (i.e. inflation) just to retain power. They are an unprincipled bunch on the whole. They will risk the future just to hold on to power. Note: stay in POWER, not in office. There was a time when politician served - that was the day when civil servants signed off their letters: your obedient servant. These days politicians go into the job to exercise power, not to serve. The only service they do is to and for themselves.
thecrashingisles
Seeing fiat currency as a fraud or a conspiracy can only cloud your judgement. It's not a fraud - it does exactly what it says on the tin. The way it works is completely open to anyone with the ability and desire to understand it.
Griptool
QUOTE(Methinkshe @ Sep 10 2007, 06:50 PM) *
If politics win over the markets then hyperinflation will ensue. If the markets win, then deflation is the natural course. My problem is that I have no trust in politicians not to take the short term path (i.e. inflation) just to retain power. They are an unprincipled bunch on the whole. They will risk the future just to hold on to power. Note: stay in POWER, not in office. There was a time when politician served - that was the day when civil servants signed off their letters: your obedient servant. These days politicians go into the job to exercise power, not to serve. The only service they do is to and for themselves.


Politics has less influence in circumstances such as this, as Maggie once said "you can't buck the market". The market must be willing to lend the money to hyper inflate, all the banks have suffered a major blow in this credit scam and they are not going to lend their way out of this problem.

I agree with cgnao that were are on the cusp of a economic disaster, however, no amount of gold ramping will convince me that it will be hyper inflationary untill someone can tell where the outlet for all this printed money will be

The UK and US are both past debt saturation point and unless we have rampent wage inflation no more new money can be absorbed.

Wage inflation cannot happen in the coming declining employment market, I would suggest the wage market is one of the few markets the are wholly driven by supply and demand unlike real estate and gold
Methinkshe
QUOTE(Griptool @ Sep 10 2007, 07:25 PM) *
Politics has less influence in circumstances such as this, as Maggie once said "you can't buck the market". The market must be willing to lend the money to hyper inflate, all the banks have suffered a major blow in this credit scam and they are not going to lend their way out of this problem.

I agree with cgnao that were are on the cusp of a economic disaster, however, no amount of gold ramping will convince me that it will be hyper inflationary untill someone can tell where the outlet for all this printed money will be

The UK and US are both past debt saturation point and unless we have rampent wage inflation no more new money can be absorbed.

Wage inflation cannot happen in the coming declining employment market, I would suggest the wage market is one of the few markets the are wholly driven by supply and demand unlike real estate and gold


Governments can feed money into the system apart from banks. However much Gordon protests that wage rises for the public sector must be kept at a minimum doesn't mean he will do it. Governments can create inflation all by themselves without the help of banks. And since 1 in 5 is now a public service employee, and another 1 in 5 is dependent on government handouts - not sure how that works out but these are figures that are swimming around in the back of my mind - fuelling inflation looks like quite an easy trick for a politician. At least, that's how I see it, but I'm willing to be corrected/convinced otherwise.
Timm
QUOTE(Methinkshe @ Sep 10 2007, 07:58 PM) *
However much Gordon protests that wage rises for the public sector must be kept at a minimum doesn't mean he will do it.


Hmm. Would the tube strike not have been the perfect opportunity to indicate that moderate wage claims would be looked on favourably? And yet they were given a public humiliation. So far, Gordon is standing firm on the pay restraint platform - witness his speach today.

Pluto
QUOTE(Methinkshe @ Sep 10 2007, 06:58 PM) *
Governments can feed money into the system apart from banks. However much Gordon protests that wage rises for the public sector must be kept at a minimum doesn't mean he will do it. Governments can create inflation all by themselves without the help of banks. And since 1 in 5 is now a public service employee, and another 1 in 5 is dependent on government handouts - not sure how that works out but these are figures that are swimming around in the back of my mind - fuelling inflation looks like quite an easy trick for a politician. At least, that's how I see it, but I'm willing to be corrected/convinced otherwise.


An easy way for a government to create inflation is to start a good war that goes on for a while. Just look at the preceding 10 years of every war in the last 100 years. It can try social projects like Hoover did during the great depression, but wars are the quickest with instant results.

barry
QUOTE(Timm @ Sep 10 2007, 09:02 PM) *
Hmm. Would the tube strike not have been the perfect opportunity to indicate that moderate wage claims would be looked on favourably? And yet they were given a public humiliation. So far, Gordon is standing firm on the pay restraint platform - witness his speach today.


They should give a wage freeze (or better still 10% cut) for anybody earning over £40,000 and a decent rise for the rest.

Council leaders used to earn the same as miner, they now earn 4 times more. What a joke.

They can always take their undoubted skills and go and work in the private sector.

Nu Labor is full of peolpe who've come up thorugh local govt and never done a proper job. They're just looking after their own type.
Goldfinger
QUOTE(Griptool @ Sep 10 2007, 07:25 PM) *
I agree with cgnao that were are on the cusp of a economic disaster, however, no amount of gold ramping will convince me that it will be hyper inflationary untill someone can tell where the outlet for all this printed money will be

I appreciate the critical hyperinflation/inflation/deflation debate. I think what the discussants generally neglect is a change of rules. It seems very naive to assume that in a major crisis everyone (central banks, governments) plays by the rules. Very quickly, if it gets bad enough, we could see rules being changed. Suddenly, it might be possibly to monetize much more crap. Suddenly, reserve ratios would not be considered as that important anymore. Suddenly, the government could indeed simply print money (and not taking on new debt). It is also naive to assume that other systems that blew up had not good rules in the beginning that should have prevented the blow-up. But then, things got worse, and worse, and worse, and suddenly rules needed to be changed...
stonethecrows
QUOTE(Pluto @ Sep 10 2007, 09:13 PM) *
An easy way for a government to create inflation is to start a good war that goes on for a while. Just look at the preceding 10 years of every war in the last 100 years. It can try social projects like Hoover did during the great depression, but wars are the quickest with instant results.


This is what concerns me probably most of all out of everything surrounding the current fiasco. I find it VERY difficult to believe that the nobody in banking and financial circles could have forseen what is now unfolding or taken a more responsible line in how they acted to prevent it given that it is an almost carbon copy of pre 1929 events. I also find it incredulous that China's economy is now being 'attacked'-their goods were fine for several years while they were cheap and China was easy to exploit so why now? I think its also noteworthy that the UK has only VERY recently repaid its debts to the US outstanding from WW2. Bush is a businessman and a mercenary SOB before all else to my mind so I fully expect him to follow this line.
Methinkshe
QUOTE(Pluto @ Sep 10 2007, 09:13 PM) *
An easy way for a government to create inflation is to start a good war that goes on for a while. Just look at the preceding 10 years of every war in the last 100 years. It can try social projects like Hoover did during the great depression, but wars are the quickest with instant results.


Hmm, nasty thought.

Another way to feed inflation into the system is via tax-cuts or increased tax allowances. Could we see a return of MIRAS, I wonder? It would be one way of propping up a falling property market, at least, I think it would. And it could be applied selectively, i.e. to a home owner's main residence and not to BTLetters or 2nd homes. Just a thought.
Matt Bear
Isn't the inflation/deflation/hyper-inflation scenario a litle too simplistic?

It seems over the past few years we've had something nearing hyperinflation in property and deflation in many electrical goods.

Now it seems to me we could see hyper-inflation in oil (which is the new gold) and possibly deflation in property prices.
grumpy-old-man
QUOTE(Matt Bear @ Sep 11 2007, 10:34 AM) *
Isn't the inflation/deflation/hyper-inflation scenario a litle too simplistic?

It seems over the past few years we've had something nearing hyperinflation in property and deflation in many electrical goods.

Now it seems to me we could see hyper-inflation in oil (which is the new gold) and possibly deflation in property prices.


yes, but when all the asset classes are put together for an economy, I assume it's then it gets it's overall flation tag ?

edited to add - please bear in mind that GOM is self taught in economics, having no formal qualifications in talking sh1te in a northern accent. unsure.gif wink.gif
wellandpower
QUOTE(Matt Bear @ Sep 11 2007, 10:34 AM) *
Isn't the inflation/deflation/hyper-inflation scenario a litle too simplistic?

It seems over the past few years we've had something nearing hyperinflation in property and deflation in many electrical goods.

Now it seems to me we could see hyper-inflation in oil (which is the new gold) and possibly deflation in property prices.



I think you could be right.
NET RESULT???? CPI 2.0% maybe? lol
Saving For a Space Ship
QUOTE(stonethecrows @ Sep 10 2007, 10:17 PM) *
This is what concerns me probably most of all out of everything surrounding the current fiasco. I find it VERY difficult to believe that the nobody in banking and financial circles could have forseen what is now unfolding or taken a more responsible line in how they acted to prevent it given that it is an almost carbon copy of pre 1929 events. I also find it incredulous that China's economy is now being 'attacked'-their goods were fine for several years while they were cheap and China was easy to exploit so why now? I think its also noteworthy that the UK has only VERY recently repaid its debts to the US outstanding from WW2. Bush is a businessman and a mercenary SOB before all else to my mind so I fully expect him to follow this line.


Interesting article on a related subject
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2165954,00.html

The Age of Disaster Capitalism

Naomi Klein (author of excellent 'No Logo' book) reports on those who see a profitable prospect in a grim future.
Monday September 10, 2007
The Guardian
bobthe~
QUOTE(stonethecrows @ Sep 10 2007, 10:17 PM) *
This is what concerns me probably most of all out of everything surrounding the current fiasco. I find it VERY difficult to believe that the nobody in banking and financial circles could have forseen what is now unfolding or taken a more responsible line in how they acted to prevent it given that it is an almost carbon copy of pre 1929 events. I also find it incredulous that China's economy is now being 'attacked'-their goods were fine for several years while they were cheap and China was easy to exploit so why now? I think its also noteworthy that the UK has only VERY recently repaid its debts to the US outstanding from WW2. Bush is a businessman and a mercenary SOB before all else to my mind so I fully expect him to follow this line.


I am sure loads of people knew it was unsustainable, but just wanted one more drink out of the trough before giving up.
Like addict gamblers, they can't help themselves. Also as someone mentioned to me at the weekend, there are loads of people in the city who have only been around 10 years, and who are probably arrogant sh1ts (not all of them of course).
It's a new paradigm remember, it's different this time. just like dotcom shares, tulips etc etc.


I dunno about a war.
Bush is in his last term and will probably be succeeded by a democrat, and both houses in the US are Dem majority. They are not going to vote for another war right now.
Brown only succeeded Blair because the Iraq war made Blair unpopular. He wouldn't have jumped iwthout the Iraq effect.
I don't think they are going to rush to war right now. They are stretched in Afghanistan and Iraq. It's become one continuous tour of duty.

Unlikely politically I think.

that doesn't mean that someone won't start a war on us of course.
cgnao
Of course the performance figures quoted are before management fees....

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=new...id=aGfQ5jcOrx1Q
Y2K Finance Hedge Fund Halts Redemptions and Sales (Update3)

Sept. 11 (Bloomberg) -- Y2K Finance Inc., the flagship hedge fund of Wharton Asset Management, will halt redemptions until at least December because of credit market turmoil.

Y2K Finance will stop calculating net asset value ``due to current market turbulence,'' the fund, based in the British Virgin Islands, said in a statement today.

Wharton Asset Management specializes in investing in asset- backed securities. Investors are shunning bonds backed by home loans after late mortgage payments by U.S. borrowers with poor credit histories rose to the highest since 2002, rattling debt markets. The London-based firm joins at least 10 other investment managers, including New York-based Bear Stearns Cos., forced to shut down funds or suspend client redemptions since July.

Managers of asset-backed funds ``could be in a lot of pain over the next few months,'' said John Godden, head of London- based IGS Group, which invests in hedge funds. ``There are no decent valuations on any of this stuff.''

The fund dropped 30 percent over June and July, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. It had been the best performing non- U.S. hedge fund investing in fixed income in the three years to the end of September 2006, according to Bloomberg data.

Maurice Salem, who founded Wharton in 1993 and runs the firm, didn't answer calls to his mobile phone. Calls to the company's offices in London weren't returned. The Y2K fund was established in 1999.

Wharton's Trio Finance Ltd. fund, which invests in real estate asset-backed securities, has fallen 46 percent this year, according to Bloomberg data.

EDIT: fix link
Ash4781
QUOTE(cgnao @ Sep 11 2007, 06:11 PM) *
Of course the performance figures quoted are before management fees....

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=new...id=aGfQ5jcOrx1Q
Y2K Finance Hedge Fund Halts Redemptions and Sales (Update3)

Sept. 11 (Bloomberg) -- Y2K Finance Inc., the flagship hedge fund of Wharton Asset Management, will halt redemptions until at least December because of credit market turmoil.

Y2K Finance will stop calculating net asset value ``due to current market turbulence,'' the fund, based in the British Virgin Islands, said in a statement today.

Wharton Asset Management specializes in investing in asset- backed securities. Investors are shunning bonds backed by home loans after late mortgage payments by U.S. borrowers with poor credit histories rose to the highest since 2002, rattling debt markets. The London-based firm joins at least 10 other investment managers, including New York-based Bear Stearns Cos., forced to shut down funds or suspend client redemptions since July.

Managers of asset-backed funds ``could be in a lot of pain over the next few months,'' said John Godden, head of London- based IGS Group, which invests in hedge funds. ``There are no decent valuations on any of this stuff.''

The fund dropped 30 percent over June and July, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. It had been the best performing non- U.S. hedge fund investing in fixed income in the three years to the end of September 2006, according to Bloomberg data.

Maurice Salem, who founded Wharton in 1993 and runs the firm, didn't answer calls to his mobile phone. Calls to the company's offices in London weren't returned. The Y2K fund was established in 1999.

Wharton's Trio Finance Ltd. fund, which invests in real estate asset-backed securities, has fallen 46 percent this year, according to Bloomberg data.

EDIT: fix link


But didn't Barclays managed to value their stuff?
cgnao
QUOTE(Ash4781 @ Sep 11 2007, 05:40 PM) *
But didn't Barclays managed to value their stuff?


So they say. Do you still believe it?
Ash4781
QUOTE(cgnao @ Sep 11 2007, 06:42 PM) *
So they say. Do you still believe it?


QUOTE
"Barclays Capital traded profitably in August 2007, after full allocation of costs and the mark to market of all positions," Mr Diamond told a banking conference. "We have suffered pain in July and August... You will see we have managed our risk and our clients' risk effectively and we are well positioned."


http://news.independent.co.uk/business/new...icle2950499.ece

Goldfinger
QUOTE
You will see we have managed our risk and our clients' risk effectively and we are well positioned.

That's what Joe Ackermann from Deutsche says as well. We will see soon! laugh.gif
cgnao
QUOTE(Ash4781 @ Sep 11 2007, 05:56 PM) *


So what?

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=new...id=aliOuu2a0g44
Paulson Says Bad Debts in the U.S. to Be Contained

March 6 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson moved to cool concern about rising defaults at subprime mortgage companies, saying the woes won't spill over to banks that make less risky loans.

``Credit issues are there, but they are contained,'' Paulson said to reporters in Tokyo during a four-day tour of Asia. The U.S. financial sector is healthy and most institutions won't feel ``a big impact.''
rover2000
QUOTE(cgnao @ Sep 11 2007, 06:59 PM) *
So what?

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=new...id=aliOuu2a0g44
Paulson Says Bad Debts in the U.S. to Be Contained

March 6 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson moved to cool concern about rising defaults at subprime mortgage companies, saying the woes won't spill over to banks that make less risky loans.

``Credit issues are there, but they are contained,'' Paulson said to reporters in Tokyo during a four-day tour of Asia. The U.S. financial sector is healthy and most institutions won't feel ``a big impact.''


The Credit Deriviative Meltdown is sooooo last month...
cgnao
QUOTE(rover2000 @ Sep 11 2007, 06:18 PM) *
The Credit Deriviative Meltdown is sooooo last month...


It's just started.
stonethecrows
Well someone must have thought Barclays valuations were reasonably credible-top winners on the FTSE today unsure.gif
cgnao
Jim Sinclair's assessment is spot on. Please listen to him as he was one of the very few voices recommending to buy gold back in 1999-2000 and has been nailing it since.

http://www.jsmineset.com

I get the feeling that I have taken you here before and have told you all the whys. The top callers have not been a benefit to any of you except for an instant moment. I do not recall many of them ever calling a bottom.

Now that $715 gold is behind us it becomes support and $751 to $761 becomes the magnet.

Focus should shift as the key fundamental is now the Treasury International Currency Flows. The thesis of three strikes and you are out can be interpreted as any three combinations of TIC below the Trade Deficit or one net negative TIC report. Following this the dollar is cooked.

You have no idea how fast gold can get into the $880 area. Last time we had lesser fundamental circumstances favoring gold and it ran up $400 in four weeks.

As I suggested to you the big, big shorts in gold shares are covering, but are not yet in the panic mode. That is coming.

This is going to be your chance to slip out of those shares with derivative risk into those without derivative risk.

So now the dollar rules gold and the impact of the Formula on the TIC report has the ability top BURY the US dollar lower than most (rational) dollar bears can possibly conceive. Now you know why $1650 is a modest expectation.

The Empire is falling in the eyes of its common shareholders and its common share, the US dollar. The Fed has NO tools to fix this derivative meltdown so they play the role of the Financial Ostrich. Those that believe the credit crisis will pass and there is nothing to do in the meantime are morons that sing to the equity chorus.

Eventually the lockup of all definitions of credit will result in the greatest international expansion of liquidity, which is monetary inflation on a planetary basis. That has to be followed by a price inflation of a planetary nature regardless of slower business conditions. Why do you think Asia is locking up raw materials?

What has been speculated on by the gold bulls but did not happen in the 70s has now happened harder and deeper than the most rational gold bulls ever expected. Yet many readers still question it.

Protect yourself. Pay off all debts. Do not carry margin on anything.
Do this before you buy gold or derivative risk free precious and base metal shares.

South Lorne
QUOTE(cgnao @ Sep 11 2007, 06:42 PM) *
So they say. Do you still believe it?

...they can't make a statement like that without clearance from the auditors, surely, as it affects the markets..... ohmy.gif ohmy.gif ohmy.gif
cgnao
QUOTE(South Lorne @ Sep 11 2007, 06:52 PM) *
...they can't make a statement like that without clearance from the auditors, surely, as it affects the markets..... ohmy.gif ohmy.gif ohmy.gif


Surely the AAA ratings below affected the markets too and made many pension funds, including yours, invest in worthless crap...

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=new...id=aWPHoWei3zOc
CPDOs Rated AAA May Risk Default, CreditSights Says

Sept. 6 (Bloomberg) -- Credit derivatives awarded the top ratings by Moody's Investors Service and Standard & Poor's may be as vulnerable to default as high-risk, high-yield bonds, according to independent research firm CreditSights Inc.
jimmyjazz
QUOTE(bobthe~ @ Sep 11 2007, 01:07 PM) *
that doesn't mean that someone won't start a war on us of course.


highly unlikely. i think they will choose the reflation via war strategy as it worked a treat in 2003.

the Iraq war is a promary cause of this whole massive credit bubble we are in.
kilroy
QUOTE(cgnao @ Sep 11 2007, 08:01 PM) *
Surely the AAA ratings below affected the markets too and made many pension funds, including yours, invest in worthless crap...

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=new...id=aWPHoWei3zOc
CPDOs Rated AAA May Risk Default, CreditSights Says

Sept. 6 (Bloomberg) -- Credit derivatives awarded the top ratings by Moody's Investors Service and Standard & Poor's may be as vulnerable to default as high-risk, high-yield bonds, according to independent research firm CreditSights Inc.

How does a CPDO work?
BandWagon
QUOTE(cgnao @ Sep 11 2007, 07:22 PM) *
It's just started.

Do you even know what a credit derivative is?
Something that hasn't just been copied from another website?

Fishfinger
QUOTE(cgnao @ Sep 11 2007, 07:43 PM) *
Protect yourself. Pay off all debts. Do not carry margin on anything.
Do this before you buy gold or derivative risk free precious and base metal shares.


Cg -I'm most interested on your take (or anyone else for that matter) on Silver. Gold seems to be moving but it isn't. Is it me or is Silver absurdly cheap "pound for pound"?

Thanks
stonethecrows
Yes fishfinger-looks that way to me and a few others I know too...can think of at LEAST one anecdotal of a farmer who has a huge hoard 'buried in a field' somewhere as his pension wink.gif
Ash4781
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtm.../bcnbern111.xml

QUOTE
Mr Bernanke, who will chair the Fed's rate-setting meeting next Tuesday, did admit that America's ability to service debt, and the willingness of foreigners to hold US debt, is not unlimited.


sad.gif
cgnao
QUOTE(Fishfinger @ Sep 11 2007, 07:08 PM) *
Cg -I'm most interested on your take (or anyone else for that matter) on Silver. Gold seems to be moving but it isn't. Is it me or is Silver absurdly cheap "pound for pound"?


Gold is money. Silver too but is easier to manipulate. It is being used now to engineer a non-confirmation signal with gold in an attempt to fool short term traders and convince them to dump gold.

When all is said and done one ounce of silver will trade at 1/15th of one ounce of gold.
Justice
Will Derivatives Wipe Out Some Currencies?

I had the derivatives market as being worth $415tr but this report puts it at $600tr and goes on to say how the central banks will need to buy up junk stock to avoid a meltdown.

divide 600tr by the earths population and it comes in at $92,307.69 for every man woman and child on the planet and make this post look like it should be in a conspriacy forum but it's all their in black and white.

My guess is we are heading for a full scale meltdown and i can not help but look at the emergency food stock i buy each week and consider just how hard it would be if i needed to grow and collect the food myself. 1kg pack of dry peas for less then a quid ! Now how long would it take me to pick all them peas by hand and thats if the starving people have not beaten me to harvest my crop.
jimmyjazz
QUOTE(Justice @ Sep 11 2007, 09:21 PM) *
Will Derivatives Wipe Out Some Currencies?

I had the derivatives market as being worth $415tr but this report puts it at $600tr and goes on to say how the central banks will need to buy up junk stock to avoid a meltdown.

divide 600tr by the earths population and it comes in at $92,307.69 for every man woman and child on the planet and make this post look like it should be in a conspriacy forum but it's all their in black and white.

My guess is we are heading for a full scale meltdown and i can not help but look at the emergency food stock i buy each week and consider just how hard it would be if i needed to grow and collect the food myself. 1kg pack of dry peas for less then a quid ! Now how long would it take me to pick all them peas by hand and thats if the starving people have not beaten me to harvest my crop.

you can buy a lot of dried peas for $92,307.69

but they are a bugger to cook properly and give you dreadful wind


Fishfinger
QUOTE(cgnao @ Sep 11 2007, 09:14 PM) *
Gold is money. Silver too but is easier to manipulate. It is being used now to engineer a non-confirmation signal with gold in an attempt to fool short term traders and convince them to dump gold.

When all is said and done one ounce of silver will trade at 1/15th of one ounce of gold.

Thanks. I'm obliged to you...
cgnao
Note the exponentially increasing amounts. Also note who the bank involved is.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6990822.stm
Sub-prime woes hit US lender GMAC
Finance firm GMAC has had to take out a $21.4bn (£10.1bn) loan as it becomes the latest lender to reveal the impact of the US sub-prime mortgage crisis.

GMAC, which has borrowed the cash from Citigroup, said boosting its financial flexibility was "a prudent measure" in the current market environment.
cgnao
BofA will likely be first to fall victim of credit derivatives.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...id=adciKLm4WGIo
Bank of America Sees `Meaningful Impact' From Turmoil

Sept. 17 (Bloomberg) -- Bank of America Corp., the second- biggest U.S. bank, said ``unprecedented dislocations'' in credit markets will have a ``meaningful impact'' on third-quarter results at its corporate and investment bank.

Trading and other areas of Bank of America's capital markets and advisory services unit are ``being adversely affected by all of these conditions,'' Chief Financial Officer Joe Price told investors at a conference in San Francisco today. He cited stress on leveraged finance, subprime mortgages and in the commercial paper market as being especially severe.

``These are quite challenging financial times,'' Price, 46, said. ``I cannot remember when credit markets in particular have been as volatile and unpredictable as they have been for the last few months

Bank of America joins the growing list of banks and securities firms to warn that the fallout from rising defaults on subprime loans will hurt profit. Merrill Lynch & Co. said last week that ``challenging'' conditions in fixed-income markets required ``fair value adjustments'' to certain investments and financing commitments, and any losses will be reflected in third- quarter earnings.

cgnao
The bomb is armed, the fuse is burning.

There is nothing Central Banks can do to save the international monetary and banking system.

This is 100% correct, guaranteed.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...;refer=currency
Central Banks Lack Tools to Fix `Panic of '07,' Moody's Says

By Mark Pittman and Kabir Chibber

Sept. 19 (Bloomberg) -- Central banks may not have the tools to restore stability to credit markets amid the ``Panic of '07,'' and instead should demand greater transparency from financial companies, Moody's Investors Service said today.

Derivatives and the growth of hedge funds using unprecedented amounts of debt have magnified the impact of a rise in borrowing costs, New York-based Moody's said in a report today.

``The new financial paradigm has brought with it some problems, which the world's financial policy technicians have not yet solved,'' Moody's said in a report by Vice Chairman Christopher Mahoney and Senior Vice President Pierre Cailleteau. ``Each credit crisis teaches new lessons, often resulting in corrective reforms. The current `Panic of '07' will as well.''

Central banks failed in their initial efforts last month to stem a credit crunch that was sparked by rising defaults on subprime mortgages. The banks used their traditional instruments for propping up markets such as adding cash to the financial system through overnight lending and cutting interest rates.

The cost of overnight borrowing in pounds rose yesterday by the most since June as the bailout of U.K. lender Northern Rock Plc stoked concern that more home-loan providers will be forced to seek emergency funding. The Bank of England yesterday made 4.4 billion pounds ($8.8 billion) of emergency loans to U.K. banks and the U.S. Federal Reserve cut its benchmark interest rate by half a percentage point to 4.75 percent to prevent the economy from sinking into recession.

Halts, Closings

At least 110 mortgage companies have halted operations or sold themselves since the start of 2006, including American Home Mortgage Investment Corp., the Melville, New York-based lender. Countrywide Financial Corp., the biggest U.S. mortgage company, was forced to tap bank credit lines after being shut out of the short-term debt market and banks provided $21.4 billion to shore up GMAC LLC, the lender owned by General Motors Corp. and Cerberus Management LP. Hedge funds, including two run by Bear Stearns Cos., collapsed and Newcastle, England-based Northern Rock sought its bailout last week.

Foreclosures set a record in the second quarter and overdue payments on U.S. subprime mortgages rose to the highest level in five years, according to the Mortgage Bankers Association.

Moody's itself, as well as Standard & Poor's and Fitch Ratings, were criticized by investors, lawmakers and regulators for being too slow to respond to the rising defaults. The ratings companies are being probed by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission and policy makers including European Central Bank President Jean-Claude Trichet have pointed to possible conflicts of interest between the ratings companies and the banks that pay their fees.

`No Idea'

Moody's, S&P and Fitch waited until April to downgrade some subprime securities, after their value had fallen by as much as 80 cents on the dollar. Analysts have been updating ratings ``as fast as we can,'' Mahoney said.

Investors have an ``over-reliance on ratings for pricing,'' he said. Some ``have no idea what they have and they have no idea how to price it.''

The global financial system, Moody's said, has evolved from a ``sleepy'' world dominated by banks and fixed exchange to one in which capital flows across borders and is allocated by the market, not financial institutions.

No Control

Traditionally, the Fed's control over banks has enabled it to ease any credit crunch by adding money to the financial system, Moody's said. The Fed has almost no control over the hedge funds that are among the biggest investors now, Moody's said.

``The intensity of the impact of a financial shock on the economy will depend on the central banks' ability to restore `fluidity' throughout the system,'' Mahoney and Cailleteau said in the second of a series of reports addressing the crisis. ``We expect market and official pressure to require greater transparency from financial actors.''

In the previous report on Sept. 5, Mahoney and Cailleteau said the adjustment in prices of mortgage bonds tied to borrowers with poor credit will last at least six more months.

The next report from Moody's will study the role of credit rating companies in the market, Mahoney said in an interview.

The ``deficiencies exposed'' by the present turmoil are mostly the same as when Greenwich, Connecticut-based hedge fund Long-Term Capital Management LP collapsed after Russia defaulted in 1998, Mahoney and Cailleteau wrote.

``The greater the loss of confidence, the harder it is to restore and crucially the greater the erosion of confidence, the greater the contagion and the broader the financial safety net may have to be spread,'' the analysts said. ``This is the ultimate conundrum of the philosophy of market discipline.''

Rebundled Risks

Moody's last month said a hedge fund collapse on the same scale as LTCM was possible. Investment banks are facing larger losses than when LTCM had to be bailed out after wrong-way bets on global bond prices, Standard & Poor's said last month.

``Risks have been unbundled and rebundled into tradable instruments,'' the Moody's report said. ``The new financial world created by securitization had not been subjected to a stress test of this magnitude until now.''

Derivatives are financial instruments derived from bonds, loans, stocks, currencies and commodities, or linked to specific events like changes in the weather or interest rates.

``What turned an overdue risk reappraisal into a financial panic is the combination of untested financial innovation, price-sensitive accounting rules, leverage and opacity,'' Mahoney and Cailleteau said. ``This cocktail has proved explosive.''
Methinkshe
Thanks again for keeping us informed. "This cocktail has proved explosive." The lighting of the fuse occurred when it became common knowledge among the banking fraternity that the AAA rating placed on these derivatives was meaningless. There is now no way back. What has been made known cannot be retracted. Dangerous times ahead.
Methinkshe
Double post - sorry.
Goldfinger
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...id=a.Iup2b4XNsA
QUOTE
Central Banks Lack Tools to Fix `Panic,' Moody's Says

``The greater the loss of confidence, the harder it is to restore and crucially the greater the erosion of confidence, the greater the contagion and the broader the financial safety net may have to be spread,'' the analysts said. ``This is the ultimate conundrum of the philosophy of market discipline.''

I guess that's what cgnao thinks will ultimately cause hyper-inflation. Everyone will need free cash for bailout, interest will be at zero or less, at the same time USD gets dumped. So, why would you hold it? Once people seriously start getting rid off it as soon as they get it, it's GAME OVER.

EDIT:
QUOTE
``Risks have been unbundled and rebundled into tradable instruments,'' the Moody's report said. ``The new financial world created by securitization had not been subjected to a stress test of this magnitude until now.''

Derivatives are financial instruments derived from bonds, loans, stocks, currencies and commodities, or linked to specific events like changes in the weather or interest rates.
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