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Ash4781
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/44eef7fa-a8da-11...00779fd2ac.html

QUOTE
The helicopters start to drop money

The central bank helicopters are planning a co-ordinated drop of liquidity on troubled market waters. The money to be dropped now is not that large. But if this does not work, more will surely follow. The helicopters will fly again and again and again.

One point is clear: central banks must be pretty worried to take such a joint action. For what is remarkable about Wednesday’s statement is that five central banks – the Bank of Canada, the Bank of England, the European Central Bank, the Federal Reserve and the Swiss National Bank – are co-ordinating their (different) interventions. Their hope must be that this action will trigger not panic (”what do the central banks know that I do not?”) but confidence (”now that the central banks are prepared to intervene in this way, I can at last stop worrying”).

It is easy to understand why central banks should have decided to take heroic action. Confidence has fled the markets in a four-month long episode of “revulsion”. As a result, monetary policy is not being transmitted to the ultimate borrowers as central banks wish. Particularly worrying has been the widening of gaps between three-month inter-bank lending rates and policy rates in the dollar, euro and sterling markets. Spreads in the last of these have recently become enormous (at more than 100 basis points).

Yet this is not the only indication of distress: in the US, for example, the spread between the rate of interest on 3-month treasury bills and AA-rated asset-backed commercial paper has widened to 270 basis points from a mere 30 basis points earlier in the year. This is revulsion, indeed.

So why might Wednesday’s co-ordinated interventions succeed where previous actions have not? In a word, the answer is: stigma.

Central banks have become increasingly worried about the unwillingness of banks to borrow from them. These banks reasonably fear that exceptional borrowing is a signal mainly of distress. The hope of the central bankers is that by auctioning funds to a wide group of institutions such anxiety would diminish, if not disappear. That hope is strengthened by the fact that these actions are joint: they are evidently aimed at lifting sentiment rather than saving specific institutions.

Will this work? The answer is that if the fundamental problem in the markets is lack of liquidity (that is, panic), rather than insolvency, and if central banks are believed willing to offer liquidity to solvent institutions without limit at what the latter consider a “reasonable” discount, then symptoms of stress should indeed disappear.

Yet these are both important provisos. In particular, there is good reason to believe that a good part of the stress is caused by worries over solvency, indeed by the reality of threatened insolvency in at least some cases. True, central banks or, more precisely, the treasuries that stand behind them, could eliminate that concern, too, by buying up every piece of paper, good, bad and indifferent. But that would also be an open-ended, possibly very expensive and certainly unpopular bail out.

Moreover, even if today’s stress is indeed a liquidity problem (something that we do not now know), there remains the question of the scale of the intervention required. Assume, for example, that central banks end up buying a vast amount of paper and so providing liquidity to institutions that have deliberately taken on big risks, by lending long and borrowing short. They have then validated those strategies, after the event.

So does the action by the central banks give us good reason to stop worrying? Only if you like huge rescue operations of incompetent bankers, would be my answer. They may well get the markets back into order. They may, in this way, rescue economies from the threat of recessions. But that is not the end of the story. The bigger the rescue has to be today, the more stringent regulation of financial institutons will have to be in future.

Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2007


cgnao
Pluto
Market wants more cash.
cgnao
QUOTE (Pluto @ Dec 12 2007, 09:26 PM) *
Market wants more cash.


Lots more.
The Spaniard
Jim Willie's latest comments:

http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editoria.../2007/1212.html
cgnao
Walton Goggins
QUOTE (leedsproperty @ Dec 12 2007, 09:08 PM) *
Does anyone know what collateral the banks are willing to accept for these liquidity injections?


C4 News reported BOE are willing to accept, amongst other things, prime credit card debt.
unsure.gif
Methinkshe
QUOTE (A.steve @ Dec 12 2007, 08:18 PM) *
Maybe... and, by the way, I don't claim my ideas are anything other than "off with the faries"... However... The effects I listed, I think will be felt.

We need to ask if the implication of these central bank "liquidity injections" will be to raise the fractional reserve of tier-1 banks, or if it will make the tier-1 banks less risk adverse. I can't imagine AAA ratings will be anywhere near as easy to acquire in future - hence leaving mortgage originators constrained.

I agree that this kind of tactic shrieks danger - but, I remain to be convinced that inflation (in a retail/stock-market/real-estate sense) is inevitable from events so far.

I would be worried if the liquidity exceeded anticipated write-downs. I suspect that banks are only admitting their sub-prime losses when they've managed to secure alternative funding... so, I'd expect to see the liquidity injections trigger a whole load of new write-downs rather than cheap credit.


Maybe I have misunderstood, but haven't you missed out a step? You seem to be speaking of some future time when lessons have been learned. Meanwhile, we have the PRESENT to consider. The fall-out is going to be huge - I think we are agreed on that - all that remains is to try to understand where the cards will fall. Problem is that we no longer have a liquidity crisis (and I guess we haven't had since the onset of this credit crunch) what we have is a full blown insolvency crisis that is only being kept from the public understanding by desperate manipulation on the part of governments and FA's. Insolvency, as you know, can only be met by repaying debt or devaluing debt - i.e. inflation. The latter is always a preferable option for any government because repaying debt (deflation) is a sure fire way to lose any election. Anyway, I am unconvinced that they can do anything to control the genie that has been let out of the bottle. If they HAD any control then we wouldn't see a widening gap between base rates and LIBOR. Maybe it will turn out to be like in the 1930's where there was little more that governments or anyone else could do by way of meaningful intervention than tinker at the edges and kepp coming up with new "initiatives" that were more hot air than effective policies. In the end the credit/debt cycle just had to unwind of its volition.
gravity always wins
QUOTE (whoops_apocalypse @ Dec 12 2007, 09:01 PM) *
Let's say that China's GDP slumps by 75% leaving it at around 3%. Hardly the end of the world for them especially as it's still better than ours of the boom. With this in mind, can you see a fall in the number of Chinese taking to the roads or demanding more protein? Same with Russia and the ME as they hold most of the true wealth and actually possess savings.

Ah well they could always kick out thier rulers have free and fair elections couldn't they? Oh no if the streets are to be empty of cars in Beijung for the Olymics they will be empty.

QUOTE (whoops_apocalypse @ Dec 12 2007, 09:01 PM) *
And yes, I can still see the West whacking in orders as you like to put it 'cos they ain't gonna get it cheaper anywhere else in the West are they, not with our input costs still rising as they are right now.

Yeah coz retail is looking good now isn't it? Can't wait till January reckon it'll be even better.

QUOTE (whoops_apocalypse @ Dec 12 2007, 09:01 PM) *
OK, in the longer run this may change, but not before we in the West are willing to accept less for our labour than those in the developing nations. Also, what is it we make these days?

Agreed but how we get there is another matter. We make nothing in this country we have transfered technology knowledeg everything to Asia they don't really need us.
cgnao
Oh dear darling... how's that different?

http://uk.reuters.com/article/businessNews...12?rpc=401&
Darling says central banks ready to act as needed
Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:51pm GMT

LONDON (Reuters) - Chancellor Alistair Darling said on Wednesday that joint action by major central banks to ease tensions in the money market were necessary and the authorities stood ready to take whatever action was needed.


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=new...id=alHu6CXxYEn4

Aug. 24 (Bloomberg) -- Former U.S. Treasury Undersecretary John Taylor said there's ``probably a good chance'' the Federal Reserve will lower its main interest rate when policy makers meet next month.

Policy makers left the benchmark rate, the target on overnight loans among banks, unchanged at 5.25 percent and pledged ``to act as needed'' to ease the impact of market turbulence on the economy.
cgnao
Please review the following article which is 100% correct, guaranteed.

http://money.cnn.com/2007/12/12/news/econo...dex.htm?cnn=yes
December 12 2007: 5:49 PM EST
Why the Fed bailout might not work

The announced plan to make credit markets more liquid could end up having the opposite effect.

NEW YORK (Fortune) -- The Federal Reserve's latest move to make credit markets more liquid could deepen problems in the banking system and actually cause the markets to be even more illiquid.

Wednesday, the Fed, along with other central banks, announced a plan that is designed to enable banks to borrow money directly from the Fed at below-market rates. This will allow a wider range of banks to access Fed credit, and simultaneously allow them to submit a broader range of collateral to the Fed when taking out those loans.

Why do this now? The Fed explained in a release Wednesday: "This facility could help promote the efficient dissemination of liquidity when the unsecured interbank markets are under stress." In layman's terms this means that rates on loans between banks - measured by something called the London Interbank Offered Rate, or Libor - are too high for the Fed's tastes, so it is now prepared to itself lend to banks at much lower rates.

Before this move, banks could borrow directly from the Fed through the so-called discount window, at 4.75 percent. The key Federal funds rate is lower, at 4.25%, but that is open to a narrower range of financial institutions and accepts a narrower range of collateral than the discount window. The new program - called the Term Auction Facility (TAF) - will auction funds to banks at rates very close to the lower Fed funds rate. The first TAF auction, for $20 billion, is scheduled to begin on Dec. 17.

....

The potentially dangerous aspect of the TAF is that it will allow banks with problems to borrow their way out of trouble, rather than by taking measures like issuing large amounts of stock to bolster their balance sheets. Struggling banks are struggling chiefly because they were mismanaged and wrote too many risky loans when credit was cheap. The TAF potentially gives mismanaged banks even more cheap credit, which will delay a much-needed restructuring of the banking sector. Nervousness about banks could then deepen, leading to even fewer loans being made.

One of the big lessons of the credit crunch is that overly cheap credit causes massive harm to the economy in the long run. The TAF suggests that the Fed still hasn't learned that.
A.steve
QUOTE (Methinkshe @ Dec 12 2007, 09:54 PM) *
Maybe I have misunderstood, but haven't you missed out a step? You seem to be speaking of some future time when lessons have been learned.


I might well have been talking uninformed nonsense, but I don't think I missed out a step.

The debate that's raging for me (and for which I've had to pick the side no-one here appears to be backing) is between an inflationary and a deflationary bust.

In an inflationary bust the price of everything rises at an rapid (theoretically exponential) rate; savings become worthless (relative to their value today) as their purchasing power is eroded and wage inflation lags. Debt escalates.

In a deflationary bust, income streams become constrained - but cash holdings appreciate over time. The value of expensive assets (businesses and real-estate - maybe even commodities) fall substantially - debtors are crippled and no new 'big ticket' projects are feasible unless they are government funded. Debt is paid down or defaulted... probably more of the latter than the former.

The inflow of "liquidity" (new money invented out of thin air by the BoE) looks, on the surface, as if it will lead to an inflationary bust... but I'm not so sure. I can see arguments that suggest that it will (apparently paradoxically) be deflationary. If the "liquidity" injections are smaller than the losses at Tier-1 banks, then this move will not increase the money in popular circulation (hence not cause price/wage inflation) - it will just shuffle the balance sheets at banks and permit write-downs of bad debt without forcing admission of insolvency.

The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to believe that all the indicators are of a deflationary bust, sorry to contradict you, cgnao. My thesis is that the inflationary phase is pretty-much over... the inflation arose from the activities of commercial banks buying fraudulently rated debt (a significant portion of which is now known to be bad debt) using loans secured against a thin fractional reserve. Where central banks are now intervening, commercial banks are being baled out to the extent that is necessary for them to produce accurate accounts that permit their continued existence - and we hope that central banks don't over-shoot the mark. Assuming that central banks do not over-shoot the mark (which I think pretty unlikely... If the average bankrupt has a debt of £100K, and 10% of the 1.4million people who expect not to be able to re-finance their mortgages next year declare bankruptcy - that's a loss of £140 billion on top of US Subprime) the next phase will be defined by public and vendor aversion to debt... which will come hand-in-hand with significantly increased risk premiums... some will explain this simply as risk aversion to falling house prices.

The biggest inflationary threat I can see is the Olympic Games... as, given the credit markets, I can't imagine a lot of large-scale private speculative investment in Olympic projects - and... if unemployment begins to rise... there will be a lot of pressure on the government to "do something" - which, I imagine, might well be to expand the Olympic exercise with some gargantuan white elephants. This, however, is an inflationary pressure which is yet to arise.
cgnao
QUOTE (A.steve @ Dec 13 2007, 12:27 AM) *
The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to believe that all the indicators are of a deflationary bust, sorry to contradict you, cgnao. My thesis is that the inflationary phase is pretty-much over...


You are so wrong it hurts.

You are actually 100% wrong, guaranteed.
cgnao
"The course of a progressing inflation is this: At the beginning the inflow of additional money makes the prices of some commodities and services rise; other prices rise later. The price rise affects the various commodities and services … at different dates and to a different extent. This first stage of the inflationary process may last for many years. While it lasts, the prices of many goods and services are not yet adjusted to the altered money relation. There are still people … who have not yet become aware of the fact that they are confronted with a price revolution which will finally result in a considerable rise of all prices. These people still believe that prices one day will drop. Waiting for this day, they restrict their purchases and … increase their cash holdings.

But then finally the masses wake up. They become suddenly aware of the fact that inflation is a deliberate policy and will go on endlessly. The crack-up boom appears. Everybody is anxious to swap his money against "real" goods, no matter whether he needs them or not, no matter how much money he has to pay for them. Within a very short time … the things which were used as money are no longer used as media of exchange. They become scrap paper.”

Ludwig von Mises
cgnao
Nice pic, but the asteroid should be labelled OTC derivatives.

cgnao
OPEC says no.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7141094.stm
Oil climbs on central bank plan

The plan to make available billions of dollars worth of loans to cash-strapped banks pushed a barrel of New York light crude up $4.37 to $94.39 a barrel.
vicmac64
QUOTE (cgnao @ Dec 13 2007, 08:06 AM) *
"The course of a progressing inflation is this: At the beginning the inflow of additional money makes the prices of some commodities and services rise; other prices rise later. The price rise affects the various commodities and services … at different dates and to a different extent. This first stage of the inflationary process may last for many years. While it lasts, the prices of many goods and services are not yet adjusted to the altered money relation. There are still people … who have not yet become aware of the fact that they are confronted with a price revolution which will finally result in a considerable rise of all prices. These people still believe that prices one day will drop. Waiting for this day, they restrict their purchases and … increase their cash holdings.

But then finally the masses wake up. They become suddenly aware of the fact that inflation is a deliberate policy and will go on endlessly. The crack-up boom appears. Everybody is anxious to swap his money against "real" goods, no matter whether he needs them or not, no matter how much money he has to pay for them. Within a very short time … the things which were used as money are no longer used as media of exchange. They become scrap paper.”

Ludwig von Mises

This sounds right - CGNAO, just noting how some mods are intent on limiting what is said about the world currency collapses by a very sizeable no of contributors.. It seems to me that the whole HPC thing has moved on to its next logical stage which is the underlying problem which is feeding the whole HP boom and bust scenario.. But it would seem that some of the mods don't quite understand that the site needs to move with it or it will become irrelevant. I had noted that one of your threads regarding the dollar was moved for no apparent reason this morning by C the T.

For what its worth unreasonable censure of what CGNAO posts will ultimately see a good number leave this site.... including myself.

Not for no reason are CGNAO's posts the among most eagerly awaited on this site..

What other sites are there that cater for this type of intelligent discussion - I would like to see what is out there - do you have any suggestions? Maybe there is an opening for one if HPC is determined to chase away the intelligent posters....
gravity always wins
QUOTE (cgnao @ Dec 13 2007, 09:06 AM) *
"The course of a progressing inflation is this: At the beginning the inflow of additional money (DEBT)makes the prices of some commodities and services rise; other prices rise later. The price rise affects the various commodities and services … at different dates and to a different extent. This first stage of the inflationary process may last for many years. While it lasts, the prices of many goods and services are not yet adjusted to the altered money relation. There are still people … who have not yet become aware of the fact that they are confronted with a price revolution which will finally result in a considerable rise of all prices. These people still believe that prices one day will drop. Waiting for this day, they restrict their purchases and … increase their cash holdings.

But then finally the masses wake up. They become suddenly aware of the fact that inflation is a deliberate policy and will go on endlessly. The crack-up boom appears. Everybody is anxious to swap his money (DEBT) against "real" goods, no matter whether he needs them or not, no matter how much money he has to pay for them. Within a very short time … the things which were used as money (DEBT) are no longer used as media of exchange. They become scrap paper.”

Ludwig von Mises


This guy died over thirty years ago I thought he believed in Laissez fair - can't see much of that happening at the moment with all this central bank activity laugh.gif laugh.gif

Did he have much experience of how far Govts and Bankers would go to manipulate the system, did he factor in the global imbalance that is China, the Yen cary trade, manipulation of economic statistics by most Govts, the slicing and dicing of debts so nobody knows who has got it.

"Mises argued that money is demanded for its usefulness in purchasing other goods, rather than for its own sake and that any significant credit expansion causes business cycles. His other notable contribution was his argument that socialism must fail economically because of the economic calculation problem — the impossibility of a socialist government being able to make the economic calculations required to organize a complex economy. Mises projected that without a market economy there would be no functional price system, which he held essential for achieving rational allocation of capital goods to their most productive uses. Socialism would fail as demand cannot be known without prices, according to Von Mises. Mises' criticism of socialist paths of economic development is well-known." Wikipedia

From reading the above I bet he would be turning in his grave to see US investment Banks going cap in hand to the Peoples Republic of China and various other non free market despots for a bit of cash.

PS I hate when people confuse money and debt you know and also when people use the words liquidity as though it is something good it is actually a reaction to fear.



A.steve
QUOTE (cgnao @ Dec 13 2007, 08:04 AM) *
You are so wrong it hurts.
You are actually 100% wrong, guaranteed.


That might be the case. Can you, or anyone else, explain what makes the scenario I outlined implausible? I'm not looking for evidence supporting the hyper inflationary thesis (there is loads of that) but evidence or reasoned argument against a deflationary outcome. To me, both seem plausible.

I've read, and think I've understood, your prediction... but I remain to be convinced that it is the only possible outcome.
gravity always wins
QUOTE (A.steve @ Dec 13 2007, 12:27 AM) *
The debate that's raging for me (and for which I've had to pick the side no-one here appears to be backing) is between an inflationary and a deflationary bust.


Err.. re-read this thread I think you will find you are not alone and haven't been for some time. tongue.gif

Welcome to the dark side blink.gif
Anders
QUOTE (vicmac64 @ Dec 13 2007, 08:29 AM) *
This sounds right - CGNAO, just noting how some mods are intent on limiting what is said about the world currency collapses by a very sizeable no of contributors.. It seems to me that the whole HPC thing has moved on to its next logical stage which is the underlying problem which is feeding the whole HP boom and bust scenario.. But it would seem that some of the mods don't quite understand that the site needs to move with it or it will become irrelevant. I had noted that one of your threads regarding the dollar was moved for no apparent reason this morning by C the T.

For what its worth unreasonable censure of what CGNAO posts will ultimately see a good number leave this site.... including myself.

Not for no reason are CGNAO's posts the among most eagerly awaited on this site..

What other sites are there that cater for this type of intelligent discussion - I would like to see what is out there - do you have any suggestions? Maybe there is an opening for one if HPC is determined to chase away the intelligent posters....




Not only do the 'mods' not understand the seriousness of the situation, and the relevance and importance of this thread and other macro-economic and currency/otc derivatives/central banks etc threads, it seems to me they go ***out of their way*** to make things extremely difficult for cgnao.

They simply cannot or will not grok the relevance of the current dynamic currency/derivatives implosion to the HPC situation as it morphs and plays out in response to said dynamic.

This is total ingrained idiocy by the mods and it is plain to see every day here at HPC.

They ALLOW idiotic and abusive trolls to infest all cgnao's threads without censure - indeed, some of the mods are obviously trolls THEMSELVES! I.e C the tramp - clueless generally and promoted above his pay rate.

Lord Acton

Power tends to corrupt mods; absolute power corrupts mods absolutely
Injin
QUOTE (gravity always wins @ Dec 13 2007, 10:02 AM) *
This guy died over thirty years ago I thought he believed in Laissez fair - can't see much of that happening at the moment with all this central bank activity laugh.gif laugh.gif

Did he have much experience of how far Govts and Bankers would go to manipulate the system, did he factor in the global imbalance that is China, the Yen cary trade, manipulation of economic statistics by most Govts, the slicing and dicing of debts so nobody knows who has got it.

"Mises argued that money is demanded for its usefulness in purchasing other goods, rather than for its own sake and that any significant credit expansion causes business cycles. His other notable contribution was his argument that socialism must fail economically because of the economic calculation problem — the impossibility of a socialist government being able to make the economic calculations required to organize a complex economy. Mises projected that without a market economy there would be no functional price system, which he held essential for achieving rational allocation of capital goods to their most productive uses. Socialism would fail as demand cannot be known without prices, according to Von Mises. Mises' criticism of socialist paths of economic development is well-known." Wikipedia

From reading the above I bet he would be turning in his grave to see US investment Banks going cap in hand to the Peoples Republic of China and various other non free market despots for a bit of cash.

PS I hate when people confuse money and debt you know and also when people use the words liquidity as though it is something good it is actually a reaction to fear.


The US, Uk and all other governments are socialist governments. Socialist has a definite meaning in Mises work - akin to collectivist in more general speech.

In the scenario, the Chinses are actually less socialist than the west - they interfere less in the market, and then only to curb excesses such as fractional reserve lending. (Which needs to be done if you aren't going to have a proper free market in banking). Over here we are trying a different intervention every week and they all fail. Everything that will be tried will fail and will make things worse.

A few men in a room in London or Washington cannot hope to make the decisions for several billion people as well as those people can themselves. The idea is completely mad.

A free market would have no government mandated currency, the market itself would pick the form of money based on what millions of freely trading people wanted to use as a medium of exchange without the "aid" of coercion.

In short - we are in the shit because of the government, therefore anything the government does will make the situation much, much worse.
cgnao
But, but, how can this be? Aren't we in a deflation?

MUHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHA

Believing in the spin and the lies and failing to understand what is really going on and take proper action NOW will financially doom you and your dependants for decades to come.

This is 100% correct, guaranteed.

http://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited/feeds...afx4435083.html
ECB says euro zone food price inflation may accelerate further in coming months
12.13.07, 5:20 AM ET

FRANKFURT (Thomson Financial) - The European Central Bank said euro zone food price inflation could accelerate further in the months ahead.

Rising food prices have been a key factor in the sharp upturn in euro zone headline inflation in recent months. Food price inflation reached 4.0 pct year on year in October, up from 1.6 pct in 2006 and 0.5 pct in 2005.

'Looking ahead, HICP food price inflation may increase somewhat further in the very near term as the past increases in producer costs are passed through to retail prices,' the ECB said in its monthly bulletin.

Producer prices of food products and beverages rose 7.5 pct year on year in October.

The ECB said food price inflation should moderate subsequently as supply catches up with demand, but this catch-up period may be more prolonged than currently envisaged.

And the balance of risks to the outlook for food prices is on the upside. Meat prices could be affected by recent strong increases in animal feed prices, for example, it said.

The central bank said food price inflation has affected individual euro zone countries very differently.

Food price inflation reached 5.2 pct in October in Germany, 6.8 pct in Spain and 11.2 pct in Slovenia.
cgnao
The derivative beast needs hundreds of trillions, not billions.

Have you put your financial house in order? If not, what are you waiting for?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtm...cnmarket113.xml
Stocks fall on fears bail-out is not enough

By Richard Blackden and David Litterick
Last Updated: 10:27am GMT 13/12/2007

Stock markets in the UK, Asia and Europe fell as an unprecedented promise from central banks to inject $100bn into the financial system only heighetened investors' fears that the credit crisis may worsen.

The FTSE 100 fell more than 70 points at the open and was down more than 100 points by mid-morning, while the FTSE 250 was down more than 150 points.

Banks and financial companies led stocks lower in Japan, where the Nikkei 225 Stock Average fell more than 2pc. Markets in Taiwan and Hong Kong were also under pressured.
cgnao
What are you waiting for? Maybe widespread bank runs will wake you up?

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...refer=worldwide
Euribor Rate Unchanged, Signaling Money-Market Freeze Persists

By Gavin Finch

Dec. 13 (Bloomberg) -- The cost of borrowing euros was unchanged, signaling a Federal-Reserve-led plan to ease the credit squeeze is failing to persuade commercial banks to lend to each other.

The three-month euro interbank offered rate, the amount banks charge each other for such loans, stayed at 4.95 percent, its highest level since December 2000, according to prices from the European Banking Federation today. That's 95 basis points more than the European Central Bank's benchmark interest rate.

The euro levels suggest that money-market rates for the dollar and pound, which will be set by the British Bankers' Association later, won't decline enough to ease a credit squeeze that threatens to derail economic growth.

``It's a very disturbing sign,'' said Christoph Rieger, a fixed-income strategist at Dresdner Kleinwort in Frankfurt. ``I'm alarmed by the impact this is having, which underscores that the funding difficulties out there are enormous,''
cgnao
I repeat, what are you waiting for?

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...&refer=bond
Central Banks Fail to Thaw Money Markets as Rates Stay High

By Gavin Finch

Dec. 13 (Bloomberg) -- Global central banks are failing to thaw the freeze in money markets that threatens to derail economic growth as interest rates charged by banks for loans in the euro area stayed at a seven-year high.

The three-month borrowing cost stayed at 4.95 percent, its highest level since December 2000, according to prices from the European Banking Federation today. That's 95 basis points more than the European Central Bank's benchmark interest rate.

Policy makers in the U.S., U.K. and Canada are struggling to revive bank lending after financial institutions reported more than $66 billion in losses linked to defaulted U.S. subprime mortgages. The Fed said yesterday it will make $24 billion available to the ECB and Swiss National Bank to increase the supply of dollars into Europe.

``It's not going to help us find an exit to this crisis,'' said Cyril Beuzit, head of interest-rate strategy at BNP Paribas SA in London. ``These measures aren't going to address the root cause of the crisis. Banks are still reluctant to lend money to each other because there are serious concerns about potential further bad news.''

The euro levels suggest that money-market rates for the dollar and pound, which will be set by the British Bankers' Association later, won't decline.

``It's a very disturbing sign,'' said Christoph Rieger, a fixed-income strategist at Dresdner Kleinwort in Frankfurt. ``I'm alarmed by the impact this is having, which underscores that the funding difficulties out there are enormous.''
vicmac64
QUOTE (Anders @ Dec 13 2007, 10:47 AM) *
Not only do the 'mods' not understand the seriousness of the situation, and the relevance and importance of this thread and other macro-economic and currency/otc derivatives/central banks etc threads, it seems to me they go ***out of their way*** to make things extremely difficult for cgnao.

They simply cannot or will not grok the relevance of the current dynamic currency/derivatives implosion to the HPC situation as it morphs and plays out in response to said dynamic.

This is total ingrained idiocy by the mods and it is plain to see every day here at HPC.

They ALLOW idiotic and abusive trolls to infest all cgnao's threads without censure - indeed, some of the mods are obviously trolls THEMSELVES! I.e C the tramp - clueless generally and promoted above his pay rate.

Lord Acton

Power tends to corrupt mods; absolute power corrupts mods absolutely

Well we could always consider starting our own site - or we could encourage a boycott of the site if things get worse - like I say CGNAO RB and the other visionary Bears are the sole reason why we get so many visitors to the main pages of the site.

I'll give you an example of how limiting freedom of speech can cause problems - look at the NI site - it is policed rigorously by those that won't hear tell of anything reference the underlying problems in our economy - in many cases they will censure comments made that have a direct connection to Northern Ireland. If you look at the posts you could be forgiven for thinking that the NI thread is booming - but look closer and you will see it is the same old posters posting the same old stuff - many many posts from very very few posters... not what makes a dynamic site.
cgnao
MUHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

http://www.citywire.co.uk/News/NewsArticle...rsionID%3d99537

Thursday Morning Market: Bank warns on inflation
Published: 10:06 Thursday 13 December 2007

Share prices continue to struggle as investors grapple with yesterday's move by global central banks to shore up liquidity in the money markets, the prospect of higher inflation next year and a deepening slowdown in the housing market.


Red Kharma
QUOTE (Anders @ Dec 13 2007, 10:47 AM) *
They ALLOW idiotic and abusive trolls to infest all cgnao's threads without censure - indeed, some of the mods are obviously trolls THEMSELVES! I.e C the tramp - clueless generally and promoted above his pay rate.


In other words, if you disagree with the Truth you are de facto an idiotic and abusive troll.

Hmmmm.....sounds very much like disagreeing with the VI HPI rampers to me, or dollar killers.

You can have any view you like, so long as its black (to paraphrase).

What is suprising is how this hyperinflationary moneterisation hasn't driven SMs up and gold is lower than its recent peak. Could it be that the rest of the world doesn't agree with you?
Goldfinger
QUOTE (Red Kharma @ Dec 13 2007, 11:51 AM) *
What is suprising is how this hyperinflationary moneterisation hasn't driven SMs up and gold is lower than its recent peak. Could it be that the rest of the world doesn't agree with you?

Just means that people still delude themselves. But in the end, the laws of economic will rule. Stocks are toast and gold will shine.
leedsproperty

http://www.taxfreegold.co.uk/goldpriceslive.html

Doesnt seem to be a rush to gold at the moment..

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/fds/hi/...ncy/default.stm

Sterling seems to be ok....

Red Kharma
QUOTE (Goldfinger @ Dec 13 2007, 11:53 AM) *
Just means that people still delude themselves. But in the end, the laws of economic will rule. Stocks are toast and gold will shine.


Why will stocks be toast in a hyperinflationary scenario? They will rocket. Same as houses.
muttley
QUOTE (vicmac64 @ Dec 13 2007, 11:28 AM) *
If you look at the posts you could be forgiven for thinking that the NI thread is booming - but look closer and you will see it is the same old posters posting the same old stuff - many many posts from very very few posters... not what makes a dynamic site.

Isn't that also true of the Gold thread?
Anders
From PS

The US Fed, ECB and other central banks plan to work toghether to loosen up credit markets is not working.


Interbank rates (to lend to each other)are almost 1% higher in Europe, even after this plan.


One has to wonder, the markets are going to be looking closely to see if the credit markets are healing (apparently not going to happen) I would not be surprised to see some major market turmoil in the next week or so - based on the increasingly worse credit markets, ie a realization that central banks cannot stop the credit meltdown in the US and the EU.


Gold's reaction was to see that move as inflationary yesterday.




"``It's not going to help us find an exit to this crisis,'' said Cyril Beuzit, head of interest-rate strategy at BNP Paribas SA in London. ``These measures aren't going to address the root cause of the crisis. Banks are still reluctant to lend money to each other because there are serious concerns about potential further bad news.''


The euro levels suggest that money-market rates for the dollar and pound, which will be set by the British Bankers' Association later, won't decline.


``It's a very disturbing sign,'' said Christoph Rieger, a fixed-income strategist at Dresdner Kleinwort in Frankfurt. ``I'm alarmed by the impact this is having, which underscores that the funding difficulties out there are enormous.'' ..."


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...&refer=home
Anders
QUOTE (Red Kharma @ Dec 13 2007, 11:51 AM) *
In other words, if you disagree with the Truth you are de facto an idiotic and abusive troll.

Hmmmm.....sounds very much like disagreeing with the VI HPI rampers to me, or dollar killers.

You can have any view you like, so long as its black (to paraphrase).

What is suprising is how this hyperinflationary moneterisation hasn't driven SMs up and gold is lower than its recent peak. Could it be that the rest of the world doesn't agree with you?



This is a troll reply.

bleakhouse
Stock market does not seem a happy bunny this morning. Are things worse than they thought? I don't think the markets realised they needed bailing out of a serious banking situation, just thought they needed reductions in interest rates to right all ills. Has stock sentiment now changed and they realise oops, there is a credit deirvative meltdown in progress. Is this the start of the fall in stocks?
vicmac64
QUOTE (Anders @ Dec 13 2007, 12:19 PM) *
This is a troll reply.

Agreed - and a very irrational one that seems to be in a state of denial too!!! WOW
Anders
QUOTE (leedsproperty @ Dec 13 2007, 11:55 AM) *
http://www.taxfreegold.co.uk/goldpriceslive.html

Doesnt seem to be a rush to gold at the moment..

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/fds/hi/...ncy/default.stm

Sterling seems to be ok....




Trolling, the usual suspects come out of their troll lairs. Same every day.

Moderators should assert themselves pro-actively for a change.

We don't need idiotic 'three wise monkeys' ostriches waving their asses in the air on this thread - the evidence every single day is overwhelming.
Red Kharma
QUOTE (Anders @ Dec 13 2007, 12:19 PM) *
This is a troll reply.


What does that mean exactly? I've noticed since you joined this site a short time ago riding shot gun for CGNAO that you accuse everyone who disagrees a troll.

Define "troll" for me? I am an HPC bear, am not convinced of your arguments for gold (I remember the same when it was $800 last time around - do you? Where you born then?), I believe USD is exhibiting strong signs of basing, despite all the doom and gloom, and tend towards WLAD's view that we are seeing an attempt to stave off strong deflationary forces at play, which are very unlikely to be hyperinflationary.

Which part of disagreeing with you makes me a "troll" on an HPC website?

Do you even have an interest in the UK housing market? I doubt that you do. In fact you don't appear to have posted anything that is not a rallying cry for CGNAO and gold as far as I can tell. I assume you have some VI in these areas?

You might want to look in the mirror before you make derogatory assertions about other board members.

What is your VI? Do tell the forum, we're all ears.........
gravity always wins
QUOTE (Red Kharma @ Dec 13 2007, 01:28 PM) *
I believe USD is exhibiting strong signs of basing, despite all the doom and gloom, and tend towards WLAD's view that we are seeing an attempt to stave off strong deflationary forces at play, which are very unlikely to be hyperinflationary.


Well said
drminky
QUOTE (Red Kharma @ Dec 13 2007, 12:07 PM) *
Why will stocks be toast in a hyperinflationary scenario? They will rocket. Same as houses.



I actually agree with you on this one. Of course in hyperinflation not everything goes up at the same speed or the same way. Bonds perform worst, then houses, then stocks, and finally life essentials (food, fuel etc) and gold.



Anders
QUOTE (vicmac64 @ Dec 13 2007, 12:25 PM) *
Agreed - and a very irrational one that seems to be in a state of denial too!!! WOW




History constantly reminds us that at tipping points it is ALWAYS the vast majority that are clueless/unprepared, and not prepared to take action.

It is ALWAYS a tiny minority that are able to see the forest from the trees.

It is very interesting watching these predictably clueless lemmings make daily fools of themselves on this and other threads.

I will have absolutely no pity for them and their ilk who had the opportunity and TIME to position themselves in the run-up to this crisis, yet chose instead to play silly buggers.

No pity at all.

Pity those who pity.
vicmac64
QUOTE (muttley @ Dec 13 2007, 12:09 PM) *
Isn't that also true of the Gold thread?

I haven't looked at it to be honest - as I can't make up my mind on gold - on the face of it - it is just yellow metal with relatively few uses that we could do without...

On the other had it has a history as being the store of value ... In any case I think it may fall some with the dollar.

So forgive me for not being able to give you a definitive answer I will look though.


However - if we compare it to CGNAO's massive thread then it is a no contest..

You need variety to establish a following ...... As they say variety is the spice of life - I have no problems with anyone posting on the site as long as they have a view on housing and the economy.

For CGNAO's post to be discarded out of meanness debases the value of the total site... The reason wasn't given.. and I only assume that CGNAO's intelligence and uncanny ability to call it as it is - is seen as a threat in some some way on a personal basis... What else could it be other than some form of misguided petty jealousy - I take my hat off to all those that fight their corner with passion - not matter what their view - that courtesy should be extended to everyone that takes the time to post on the site.. trolls included.


Anders
QUOTE (Red Kharma @ Dec 13 2007, 12:28 PM) *
What does that mean exactly? I've noticed since you joined this site a short time ago riding shot gun for CGNAO that you accuse everyone who disagrees a troll.

Define "troll" for me? I am an HPC bear, am not convinced of your arguments for gold (I remember the same when it was $800 last time around - do you? Where you born then?), I believe USD is exhibiting strong signs of basing, despite all the doom and gloom, and tend towards WLAD's view that we are seeing an attempt to stave off strong deflationary forces at play, which are very unlikely to be hyperinflationary.

Which part of disagreeing with you makes me a "troll" on an HPC website?

Do you even have an interest in the UK housing market? I doubt that you do. In fact you don't appear to have posted anything that is not a rallying cry for CGNAO and gold as far as I can tell. I assume you have some VI in these areas?

You might want to look in the mirror before you make derogatory assertions about other board members.

What is your VI? Do tell the forum, we're all ears.........



Zzzzzzzzzzzz
Laura
QUOTE (vicmac64 @ Dec 13 2007, 12:36 PM) *
I take my hat off to all those that fight their corner with passion - not matter what their view - that courtesy should be extended to everyone that takes the time to post on the site.. trolls included.


Well said Sir!
Red Kharma
QUOTE (Anders @ Dec 13 2007, 12:27 PM) *
Trolling, the usual suspects come out of their troll lairs. Same every day.

Moderators should assert themselves pro-actively for a change.

We don't need idiotic 'three wise monkeys' ostriches waving their asses in the air on this thread - the evidence every single day is overwhelming.


Who is "we" exactly?

What is your purpose posting in a "forum" where you openly admit you have no interest in debate, discussion or other points of view, but simply a platform for your own VI, in which any dissenter is an idiotic troll, an ostrich waving their ass in the air?

Do you own this site?


Red Kharma
QUOTE (Anders @ Dec 13 2007, 12:36 PM) *
Zzzzzzzzzzzz


I'll take that as an indication of your inablity to debate.
scott666
So the banks now know that if they want the governments to pump liquidity into the market they should stop lending between themselves and manipulate LIBOR upwards.

Moral hazard? More like theft of the century.
Anders
QUOTE (Red Kharma @ Dec 13 2007, 12:48 PM) *
I'll take that as an indication of your inablity to debate.



Never wrestle with a pig; you both get dirty and the pig likes it.

Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig.
Injin
QUOTE (Anders @ Dec 13 2007, 12:53 PM) *
Never wrestle with a pig; you both get dirty and the pig likes it.

Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig.


Can't help but notice your philosophy isn't matched by your actions there, Anders.

You are telling him that you can't tell him anything. Is this some sort of zen?

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