http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article...oneypro?source=

Singles 'storing up money problems'
8 January 2005

Single Britons aged under 30 are "sleepwalking" into a financial crisis - owing four times as much as they save each month.

Research from the Birmingham Midshires' Saving Britain campaign revealed that commitment-free under-30s had average savings of £522 and debts of £2,010 on cards, loans and store cards.

In contrast, married homeowners were just about keeping their finances on an even keel - owing an average of £1,132 and being able to draw on a nest egg of £1,867.

Married couples with children saved significantly more - having an average of £9,174 put away.

People over 50 had a good level of financial health, more due to the fact that they seemed to have a strong intolerance towards debt on cards and loans - an average of just £460, working at around a fifth the amount of debt amassed by the under-30s.

Tim Hague, head of savings and investments marketing at Birmingham Midshires, said: "The time has come to stop talking of a generic savings gap.

"With more than 60% of the population regularly saving, the industry needs to focus its attention on young people.

"Many young Britons have had exposure to debt from a young age, perhaps through university fees, and it seems the impact is that they subsequently become tolerant to living with too much debt.

"This does, however, store up problems for the future as many find they can't afford to save and many put back plans to get on to the property ladder."

The research was undertaken by Taylor Nelson on a sample of 1,000 people nationwide.

TRUE,,Are'nt we an angry nation!

Working in retail - people get hep up so quickly over little things!

Man - look at the tsunami - get a grip you!

TT. Who are you addressing this to?

I assume hes become a bear!

"This does, however, store up problems for the future as many find they can't afford to save and many put back plans to get on to the property ladder."

It is not making me angry.
It emphasises one of the obvious reasons why this crash will be dramatic and sustained.
There is a whole generation out there who live for today, spend like there is no tommorow and are a timebomb on the OO's who were reliant on the ridiculous inflation of HP's they bragged about yesterday (but not anymore).
The crash is on us,
just a few in denial for another six months and then watch the fireworks, repossions , bankruptcies, and economic chaos. Its not going to be a pretty sight and the greed of vested interest will be the cause.

What's the point of this? Is the search for bullish articles so futile you now have to post anything, however irrelevant?

Anger, mmm ! We have all been carping on about the debt bubble for months. MEW and credit card debt, and white vans full of cheap Chinese imports and so it went on to Keynes et al. Anger at the silly buggers who held the belief that the good times never stopped. Must have the Boxster and the 4WD brigade. There will be many a broken home due to debt.

Why the change in the UK culture I wonder. My grandmother hated debt and all those around likewise. I think we are following the American example of running on debt.

Come on guys, if anyone else had posted this, you would have just debated the content of the article. Not the reason why the article had been posted.

Anyway,

Being in this range (under 30 and single) I buck the trend by having savings and no debt. However, my friends are quite different.

Aged between 21 and 28, the majority of them still live with their parents as it is too expencive to leave home. The one who is now 28, and still lives with his parents, ran up huge credit card debts about 5 years ago. He has only just finished paying off his dad, who bailed him out. Now he is in a position to buy, he can't afford to due to the over inflated prices.

Myself, even with savings, could only just afford to jump on the housing ladder, but I choose not to, as what I could afford doesnt warrent blowing all my savings.

The relevance of the posted article on house prices?

Singles who are under 30 are no longer entering the market.

I remember when I was 18-28. Struggling to make ends meet & sometimes tempted to satisfy an urge today by taking a high interest loan. I even once had a 29% loan on a motorcycle. It's a tough lesson to realise just how much that bike cost.

I learned the hard way that there is only two ways to get ahead financially:

1. Earn more money.
2. Spend less money.

Combine them and you'll get ahead faster than you might think possible.

When I started out as a landlord, number 1. was my goal through rent receipts. Number 2 was necessary because of the huge commitment when buying property for renting out.

You may not get your chance this year or next, but if you start positioning yourself from now onwards, when the opportunities present themselves, you'll be ready for them.

So they call £1,867 a 'nest egg'? I would have thought a 'nest egg' would be an amount closer to £1,868...!

That's sound advice whether bull or bear, TT.
Don't understand why some folks round here feel the need to jump down your throat everytime you post.

'praps all this trolling other forums is making people a little paranoid.

The meejduh like to present all problems as individual, but I'd like to defend many under 30s who are not spending freely on designer clothes and toys and are in debt due to poverty. With crippling college debts and a job market where any fool can get a job, but it can be incredibly hard to get a meaningful income, savings are often put onto the back burner however inclined one is to save.

I remember a few years back buying stupid things like groceries with a credit card to eat just hoping it would all come out in the wash, so it's a bit galling to be depicted as a free-spending hedonist in the meejduh. In the end I had to consolodate some debts with a personal loan. That's probably the best advice, but you should only do this once and put any spare cash into overpayments.

As I'm married, we're looking to buy together. It's made saving a lot faster as you can pool resources (of course, don't get married just to live cheaper!). If I was still single and anti-marriage I'd only be able to afford 1999 prices, so I'd need to be praying for a crash of Bruno-like proportions. As an alternative, I'd be looking towards co-housing projects and co-ops as a more positive alternative to living forever in flatshare land.

The original poster cannot possibly be addressing me.

I too have savings and no debt at all - and yes I have a credit card but only use it moderately and pay it off every month. And in the all the years I've been away from home - never have I run to my parents for money. Never. I am proud of this and my parents are proud of me for that.

Yet it does seem that other people in the country are running up huge mortgages and credit card bills with impunity. Why have they been allowed to do so ?

In today's market there is no way I am going to blow the savings I so diligently worked for over 7 years in order to buy a shit hole.

Well said, Warks-lad. Why should the money you've made with real work go to realise the paper profit of some smug homeowner or BTL freeloader?

The market is going nowhere, flat to falling. Saving for a house now means something again, as your hard-won savings aren't wiped out in seconds. As the market falls you'll the same 'free money' feeling that the BTLers had previously - a kind of sweet revenge.

Now, if I'm wrong and the marklet doesn't fall - or just stagnates a little - we leave the country, and the UK loses another two exerienced graduate workers and generally good citizens. Then it'll be a case of, in the words of Nelson from the Simpsons, 'Ha! Ha!'.

Win-win, either way!

I am under 30 and nothing like this. I've been a saver all my life, I don't even own a mobile phone. Saving hasn't done me any good.

In fact reckless f*ckwit spenders , people not careful with money are exactly the sort who have been the winners in todays economic climate where if you're not mortgaged up to your neck your screwed. They're the people who took out 110% interest only mortgages and saw their houses rises 100% in value.

It's true most people on this forum are not steeped in debt. STRs obviously have no debt and large savings and potential FTBs are much the same (but usually with slightly less savings). The HPC earnings survey showed that the average HPC forum poster is an above average earner, a highly educated/ qualified professional with above average savings and no debt, and not much like the people mentioned in the article.

So TTRTR, why are we so angry?

Probably because we feel like we are living in a country where stupidity rules, a society that rewards greed and debt fuelled consumerism above hard work and dedication. A society where you are punished for actually trying to produce something rather than make money out of someone eles's misfortune, where you're are more valued and rewarded as a BTLer renting out houses to people on sickness benefit than you are studying to become a scientist or an engineer. A society whereby any opposition to its twisted values are met with spin and misinformation by the vested interests.

I'm just guessing here, but I think some or all of those points are why intellegent people in this country are angry.

TTRTR, I know you are not under 30. The under 30s in 2005 in this country have more cards (no pun intended) stacked against them than at any time in living memory, and they are greeted with nothing but gloating by the "I'm alright jack, you should have bought to let in 1995" brigade.

Anyway, rant over. Back to work - some of us have to actually produce something don't you know!

Market doesnt need so many of you FTBs now, as investors & parents & pension victims are willing to take up the slack.


I think its a good thing you FTBs are more likely to rent as this shores - up B2L.

See what I mean about the "I'm alright Jack" society. Where did this cancer come from?

TTRTR,

What makes me angry is your poor memory. You have forgotten the endless debt averse threads spawned by the almost exclusively frugal membership of HPC. Indeed it is the ridiculous levels of leverage taken on by OOs and BTLs such as yourself that most people here cite as the cause of the housing bubble.

You also seem to have forgetten the HPC site surveys that showed a large net cash position for members of HPC. Net cash positions for HPC members well into 6 figures were not uncommon. What else would you expect from STRs? Yet you, who feel we must be angry about our own supposed indebtedness ( ), have a huge debt yourself. You justify this because, like that other man of dubious credibility, Gordon Brown, you make a distinction between debt for "investment" and other debt. However, just like Gordy you are learning that investment is only investment if it makes returns. Gordy talks about investment in hospitals. Hospitals don't howver make profits. Is that the sort of "investment" you are talking about?

I suppose you are hoping that the new posters (welcome!) won't have seen such surveys and threads. However, they are not so stupid as to be unable to see that this is a debt cautious site.

But enoigh of anger. Here's something about you that really makes me laugh. Your unnecessarily long moniker. For somebody who is supposedly a fan of frugality, why be so profligate with your words? What is wrong with TimeToRaiseRents? Why do we need the "The". Then you'd be TTRR. Just think, I could save a whole keystroke everytime I reply to your ridiculous straw-clutching.

Sledge, by the looks of these statments, I can conclude you never will understand property investment. Go back to your high interest ladybird muppet Bank accounts and leave us investors to do the Mans work.

BTW, investors in the main also have lots of cash in Bank, but to rely only upon muppet financial propducts will never make anyone financially virile.

absolutely spot on !

of course the country will suffer inevitably because BTL doesn't create any real wealth. The real wealth creators and innovators will offer their talents to a more deserving society.

Hello TTRTR,

Apologies if I mistook the purpose of your initial post.

Your advice is, of course, spot on. I was like those in the article, and in some ways I still am as I still have some debt to pay off. But I learned my lesson, and now my debts shrink monthly, while my savings increase. I am certainly positioning myself for the opportnities ahead.

Cheers

When IRs go up and house prices come down, would you want to be in their position. People who stretch themselves to the limit with no spare capacity face financial ruin when things go a**e up, as many found out in the last crash.
In 1970 I borrowed at 8% and was warned IRs look like they are on the way up. My capacity was increased by budgeting to take a 15% hit, and yes rates hit 15%.
The savers and prudent always win in the end, take my word for it, seen it all before.

Please do explain. I'd love to hear more from such a well informed mind who believes investments that offer negative returns are valuable.

I'll try and reply in between constructing strangles, butterfly spreads and other such muppet financial strategies.

let's face facts dogbox,

we're right,you're wrong...what goes up must come down....period!

doesn't matter what market you "invest" in,the secret is timing.

buy low and sell high...and buying low means everyone else wants to sell/

vice versa for sell high.

and at this present moment where do you think we are in the cycle???...had lots of herd buyers over the last 3 years(mostly down to a poor stock market to start with and then people got on the bandwagon of easy money as prices rose)

no good bleating on about past performance because that's exactly what it is...in the past!!!.

stock market trend of a few years back should tell you it can go very wrong,very quickly!

And that about sums it up for me personally .

Dames

add to that the assets you have don't actually do anything upon purchase,it's only when you physically buy or sell at a later date that you make a real profit or loss.

It is after all only a paper value until a transaction is done,and I find it highly amusing listening to people harping on about how much their house is worth!(how stupid!,got to sell it first to realise the cash).


oh and in stock market terms,every good investor puts a stop-loss on their shares.(and adjust if the price reaches a higher bracket...note the same does NOT apply on the way down!!)..if the shares fall to that value they sell them and either:

a)bank profits
b)minimise loss.

anybody want to disagree that the same principal does not apply to property also?

Well from my experience the under 30's bracket seem to be the most responsible with money. The single most expensive purchase other than houses are cars.
My family run a garage and I can tell you from first hand the under 30's are far more responsible with their money.

An under 30 will generally buy cheaper, low maintenance cars and diesels have become extremely sort after by this age group.

Over 30's tend to want larger cars, they are much more concerned with cup holders and whether it has 7 seats (even though there is 4 in their family) than how many miles to the gallon, servicing and insurance charges.

Under 30's tend to sell their current cars privately and save themselves ££££'s rather than part ex them which pulls in a much lower price. They also keep their cars longer and don't lose 40% of there expense in the first four years.

Over thirties say "they don't want the hassle" of selling privately so are prepared to pay the garage £££'s to take the car off them.

Under 30's read the finance agreements carefully and question warranties etc. They also visit more garages to compare prices and try to do deals.

Over 30's check the repayments and sign more quickly on the dotted line. These same people are also under the interpritation that a MOT will cost far more than selling their 3 year old car and buying a new one. Keeping up with the Jone's is as important than practicality. They are generally happy with just whats on the forecourt.


Sorry but when it comes to cars I know the younger people are far tougher nuts to crack.

Why should TTRTR / BBB / dogbox listen to a hopeless, clueless individual like you sneaky? If you had any idea about investment / business you'd have closed the garage biz, stud-walled the showrooms into 16 shoeboxes and let them out at a yield of 1% below mortgage rate. The trouble with your sort is you just have no imagination....

Quite right!!!

I have only ever bough 2 cars privately(and both of them were through family so i didn't get ripped off.)

the rest i have bought at auction,driven for a couple of years and then sold for more than I paid for them,as a result I've had minimal depreciation!

not quite what most car owners experience.

and i've been doing that since Iwas old enough to drive!


but sneaky has raised some good points.
Even at car auctions you can tell who is a "punter" and prepared to pay over the odds,they're the ones mooching around with clean clothes and a parkers guide they just bought at tesco's

the real tradesmen have the glass' guide,which is far more realistic.And it's still possible to get really good bargains if there are types of car you want and they are't taking much of an interest in.

Quite obviously hit a nerve there. LOL don't shoot the the mesenger. Not talking investments CARS ARE NOT. Talking general expenses like the orignal thread started with.

Guess you just bought a new car

Sucker

Doh! Too late sneaky!

Er, I think he was being tongue-in-cheek funny, actually...
Note the at the end...? Made me laugh, anyway.

Doh, he's on your side, spanner.

My apologies Sledgehead I have had a couple of glasses of en-vino and took it the wrong way.

No offence aye. I'm +30 but appreciate the way the -30's deal with their money. Fair play makes our job harder. Still there are plenty of Bull's and BTLer's to take their equity from out there. Let's face it they are the financial wisards out their.

LOL not in my game.

No worries. Tried to help but they're a bit quick today!

If the crash is upon us it seems as if FTB's are not going to be able to get on the property ladder anyway. They haven't been saving and are doing the usual adolescent things of blaming everyone else for their lack of discipline. Don't shout to loudly about bringing on the crash, your job and those of others might well crash as well.

No more complaining please - you're not on the ladder because you wanted to have a good time. Fair enough - don't blame prices or greed you could have got on a decade ago at least - but you were having fun.

Keep it coming Jem. You need flash cars as well as over-inflated property. Keep spending you know it makes sense. Hell you have the equity.


At present

Uh, yes they will. It will just ahve to fall further than you hope!



I'm "On the ladder" or "down-escalator" - nothing is cast in stone. As fo rthe STRs, what have they to complain about. We are merely telling you that BTL has fuelled this rise and BTL yields in areas where prices have risen no longer make sense. Just ask our savy PM. £2750 / wk on a £3.5m property. That's 4% gross, no voids, no agents fees, no maintenance. And he still can't let the place. The area average is £2000/wk gross. That's 3% gross, no voids, no management fees, no maintenance. I'm not complaining: I'm laughing. And that's now. Wait for the capital depreciation. It's not difficult to imagine property wiping out the combined accumulated wealth of a PM and a top flight barrister combined. Tell me what you can afford to lose that they can't. Investment? Hah!

I read that at the beginning of December a snooty big gun estate agent in the area stated that the PM would see his property drop by 600k by Christmas.
How many years salary is that. Also the rent asked was reduced by 1K per week.
Oh dear.

Where did that choleric rant come from Jem? Normally your posts are lucid and rational.



And you know this how exactly?



Not you though Jem, because you're in the public sector, so you'll be fine. What is it they say, those who can, do, those who can't......?



I have heard a lot of horseshit on this site, much of it from 3B. But I have NEVER, and I mean NEVER, heard someone say something as stupid as this.



Or not, as the case may be.

Jem=tosspot.

Here is a fact: 99% of people predicting a crash are either tenants, would be landlords, people who still live with their parents.

Landlords generally don't discuss crashes because they don't really care. If prices crash short or medium term so be it, because they do not need to sell. Indeed many landlords love all the negative press and sentiment. It creates more tentants as they delay buying or sell then rent.
THAT'S A POST FROM A LANDLORDZONE SENIOR MEMBER

Just goes to show you they haven't quite figured out how the market works yet!!
STR's sell up and naiveFTB/BTL buy at hyped up prices.
STR then rent while prices fall....of course rental demand goes up,but yield doesn't rise at the same rate as there is saturation.

next step,Naive BTL and FTB get caught by higher mortgage payments with obvious repercussions of defaults/repo's
STR still has their money tucked away,not spending so Retail slows.
Naive FTB/BTL can't spend either.
Retail starts to tank....resulting in job losses.
More defaults/repo's...etc etc..and the spiral declines!

Very, very good post warks-lad -- so totally hits the spot. Why should you (or your mates) pay £195-235+k for a miserable little sh*thole which cost the present owner & seller £65-75k only 4-6 years ago!!!! Crazy!!!! Just offer them a tenner more than they paid for it!-
Why not? Inflation is apparently neglible!!! Ha Ha Ha!!!

Totally agree with you Eric....so many people have just basically taken the piss with their selling prices...Let them ROT!

"suppose they gave a war ...and nobody came" FTB's.....JUST DON'T BUY!!

you deluded by the assumption that working hard gets you ahead!

Working smart does that actually.

Your comment about intelligent people (it gives the impression that you consider you ARE one) is laughable. Many conventionally 'academically intelligent' people have no nous or street skills to get ahead financially. Most of the high achievers academically that i know are in the middle class poverty trap and are living a pretence to the world fuelled by credit and ulcers...its so pathetic to observe.
These folk were taken in by the hype....go to school..pass exam.get great job.....get married.borrow for a house.....zzzzzzzzzzzz...then spend the rest of your sad existence on this earth feeling sorry for yourself.....oh..then die!

How CAN you be intelligent if you are doing the same arduous unrewarding things day in day out....and expecting a different outcome each time....pretty dumb dont you think?

Re hard work/dedication.....dont tell me youre in the NHS? As that is a typical grumble in that world (firemen etc etc)

People have known for years that nurses are underpaid...yet some go into nursing (fair enough)..but then moan that its underpaid..heeelllooo?

There are lots of jobs in this catagory....solution is IF you wanna make big bucks......AVOID THESE JOBS LIKE THE PLAGUE!

Dont tke jobs like this then moan.....doing so simply singles you out as
a...stupid
b...excuse maker for your shortcomings

basic economic issue is scarcity of resources... and how much money follows resources..or otherwise!

if you dont like your situation......then bloody well change it and begin a fresh start to your life. There are no excuses if you are healthy and intelligent living in the UK.

Your rant says a lot about you....no thought out substance.and working on the theory that bleating will distract the listenier from your REAL reality!

go ahead guys...pick over this like vultures as you usually do...cant believe no one else on here (regardless of if bull or bear) agrees with this.

I agree with you...partially.

people who teach,in nhs etc do it because they are "caring|" professions and they care about people....but in so doing leave themselves susceptible to emotional blackmail and crap pay.

you are right in saying you have to protect your own ar**,but morally speaking are you saying its ok to take the advantage of others to get yourself ahead in the world?...then it's equally fine to capitalise when people fall on hard times like repo victims and btl gone wrong.

I think you might find that thinking like this is why the arabs/al quaeda hate us in the first place.

It still won't stop be preying on some poor landlord that got his fingers burned...but what goes around comes around.

Well said Oracle

My sentiments entirely....I learned early on this fact.by observing others...learn form others mistakes and not your own

I trade in property ful time, and if there is a price crash or not, I will still do very well as i know what I am doing.

good luck to you, and if you prosper at the expense of a non savvy btl ll........then so be it

my Law of the jungle attitude to life might not be everyones cup of tea.but in these so called unfair times (on the face of it).it is the simplest way of not getting hammered financially

the balance here is that prob people with caring jobs would, if push came to shove, stay in them rather than (if given the chance) have a ruthless money making job. they wld prob realise they are more contented staying as they are

it doesnt sort out their financial matters...but they cld argue (if it were poss to contrast these things) that they are happier than a high roller with money to burn

the other consideration is that material gain which we experience in the west is the 'price' we must pay for our materialistic greed...............the west drives the world generally speaking and gets pilloried for it
however that will never stop....so by saying we antagonised the middle east etc by our wealth and attitude is pointless

my real point was to simply say to peole to stop moaning.or take action

i hate to hear noise for noise sake

for a web site to be devoted to people moaning about a house price crash.its absurd

I feel that luxury caribbean cruises and aston martins are more than id like to pay ...but i dont start a cruise price crash web site do i?

just get on with life i say.and deal with what cards you have......or play another game.

People can live without luxury cruises or aston martins. They cannot live without their own homes.

My mum used to teach and gave a lot of the excuses you have stated.

I realised at about the age of 13 that we were fundamentally different people and I didn't want to go through the kind of crap she did.

it was tricky because her mindset was precisely...do well at school,go to college,go to uni...get a job etc.

then I got into flogging cars at 17.bought at auction and sold for profit.
just a sideline but it did teach me how to trade.

then I got into share trading as a hobby while I was doing a 9-5.

Thing is I found economics really boring,but still breezed it with minimal study.

school of life is a much better teacher than any classroom...that's a fact.

Er, well, I hate to agree with "trolling the neg heads", but they can and they do.