Hi,

Looking for some opinions regarding the purchase of a property overseas. I've been researching, Morrocco's Saidia resort, Mexico's Campeche resort and Queenslands Central Coast around Mackay.

The Saidia option sounds very exciting. Even if the government/developers only realise half of what they are proposing it still seems like a good deal for 5* beachfront property. I've read some of the extremely divergent views on this forum and their have been some interesting points raised on both sides, however there seems to be a distinct lack of facts and figures to back up any of the arguments.

cheers
Scottishguy

There are 400 messages about Saidia, what else do you expect to be discussed about it?

Dogbox (or Thorr how he/she is known on other forums) will tell you that is the best investment and Biglog will tell you that it is a dump.

Thanks for your well considered input. I did happen to mention other places I was considering and was hoping for some opinions/experiences on these locations.

Hi everybody,
My first posting on this site. I can only comment from personal experience and would suggest that so far all is fine with my investments in Saidia. I would recommend that le Jardin de Fleur is the only favourable series of developments on offer here. Whilst there has been all sorts of comments (positive and negative) on this topic it is MOSTLY speculation with few contributors able to predict the future 100% correctly. Collate as many FACTS as you can (sure.... listen to the tittle-tattle but only use that for what it is - some informed and some uninformed OPINION)
My feeling is that after extensive due diligence and meeting with the folks behind Property Logic and 'testing them out' , this investment represents an excellent return for risk investment. Risk and investment return are somewhat proportional the trick is to protect the downside and develop your exit strategy as best you can. I believe that one of the most authorititve guys, on the subject of Morocco per se, is Andy Welland (he knows a thing or two about other areas also!). Mexico and Queensland - I cannot give an informed opinion about as I have not performed any REAL research into these markets. Hope this helps.

I thought that Mr Welland is an agent active in Morocco? If that is so, then although he should be knowledgable about the area, his views are hardly likely to be dispassionate. Much of the focus on this forum has related to Saida, there ARE other proposed developments going forward in Morocco in Marrakech & along the Atlantic Coast...that may provide you with some form of comparison.
Re the original query, The markets you mention are very different, with different levels of risk so I would question what your longer term strategy is...comfortable lower capital growth or the roller coaster thrill of an emerging market?

Like others I know little about the Mexican or Australian developments. I have been offered Mexican property (by Andy Welland!) but felt it was too far away and that as such my exit route is less clear as IMO there is unlikely to be a ready made significant UK second hand market.

Saidia Morocco is being marketed by a multidude of UK and Spannish E/As so selling - on or indeed letting will hopefuly prove more robust than would otherwise be the case.
Add to this the fact there are planned to be several on - site rental agents and the fact the on site 5* hotels will effectively market the place for free.

Queensland for me would be a wondeful place to holiday and I would feel safe investing there given it is an advanced Western nation, however as the market in Australia has already boomed it wouldnt tempt me.

As someone here suggests its a good idea to establish 'facts', but investing is'nt that simple otherwise Fund Managers with thier armies of analyists would simply collate 'facts' and always produce outstanding returns. The majority of people generally dont spot an emmerging boom. Irish real estate as an example was'nt significantly recognised by the logically minded City analysists 10 years ago. I know a fund Manager of a large Insurer. He generally is pretty short sighted despite having access to shed loads of facts.

No, for me its about 'vision' although one must of course way -up all the risks.

Saidia will offer an outstanding all round experience, decent season, emptyiness (this is a benefit for many of us who are tired of busy Spain), luxury (unlike most of Greece or Bulgaria for example), and relatively short flight times.

Going on gut instinct alone, my feeling is that Saidia is over-priced given that this is bleeding-edge stuff for Morocco. Having said that I am well aware of the prices commanded by some of the worlds best resorts and if they could somehow demonstrate the quality of the product other than the rather grand claims they are making, then I would be all over it. There is just that rather large question mark that's holding me back.

Nobody can give you facts about Saidia as the site is not built yet. As Morocco is not that far from UK, maybe is better you go there for a couple of days and see it yourself.

In Morocco there will be another 5 Plan Azur resorts. Considering that all the best sites in Saidia have been sold or you can purchase them resale at a premium, the unreleased
Plan Azur resorts are better value because you doi not pay ofr orther people speculations.

About Australia, you probabbly know that the house market there is in freefall so buyign now is like catching a falling knife. But in few years time might be a good buy.

Mexico's Campeche depends on what happens with USA market, as US people are the ones that visit Mexico. Campeche is a new area so it might still be a good time to buy there.

In response to Dogbox's comments I am inclined to agree...when I talk of 'facts' I am not proposing for an instant that investment decisions are based on 'facts' alone. There is also that magical ingredient called 'entrepreneurial instinct'. If one has the combination of the two then the chances of realising a satisfactory outcome are increased - so thanks for pointing out that rather significant ommission!
In response to previous comments - I was of the opinion that frequent posters (perhaps including Scottishguy) knew that Andy Welland is an agent - however in my experience he won't try and sell anything he does'nt believe in or is not robust - in my experience he is quite happy to give advice and accept 'no' as an answer - no loss in talking to him therefore.
With regard to scottishguys comments about pricing - I accept that entry level is high but I am not sure what that is related to - other than other developments. I am unclear what comparison criteria you are applying though ?
What it all boils down to is your ATR (attitude to risk) - after investigation I tend to believe what I am being told about JdeF's developments - time will tell.

Please don't misquote me, I have NEVER said it's a dump. what I have said is that I fail to see the attraction of Saidia as there isn't anything there special.

I would also concur that it appears overpriced and I'd question whether you will be getting anything of any quality (I live in Morocco and believe me, our idea of quality and theirs are poles apart).

I'm with Scottishguy.

Once they have some built property to demonstrate prices will have surged, unless the built quality is'nt good. Im confident the quality will be decent.
They could present a 'mock - up' but for many people this still would prove nothing.

My gut instinct is that once 2010 comes prices will be far higher. I say this because people are basically driven by emmotion.
Once they can take a walk around the vast state of the art marina which is surrounded with quality restaurants and clubs, once they see the 3 golf courses set along a large beach, once they sample the sports facilities and beach clubs there appreciation of the site will result in premium prices.

Im well aware the development might not feature all the promises, but my gut tells me it will. The Kings reputation rests on this first premier Moroccan resort and from what Ive read he is a very driven Man.

In terms of price I found similar sized villas with pools on premium Spannish developments (La Manga) for 4x this money and that was without a mega marina or on - site beach let alone all the other features.
When I asked agents for an on - golf plus on - beach villa they just laughed telling me Id need at least £1m unless I went for a down market site.

Also never under estimate the indeginous middle class. As we have seen in middle Eastern premier resorts the local middle classes are'nt shy when it comes to splashing out on property.

Depends on what your definition of a dump is...

I do not have time to go through your messages, but you said many times that Saidia is a nothing.

Of course, after I saw the pictures posted by dogbox yesterday, I perfectly agree with you.

In what concerns Moroccan quality, it is obvious from different Moroccan property forums that nobody (except maybe Saidia) is happy with the way things progress at different sites.

I hear what your saying, however I don't neccessarily believe this is a fair comparison. Spain is a million miles away from Morocco in terms of it's modernity and familiarity with European holidaymakers.

In any case, i've taken a leap of faith and reserved an apartment in RT-7. Let's see how this pans out...

I agree with d*o*g*s*h*i*t

Well done.

I almost bought land on an isolated island called Great Exuma in 2003. In the end I held back because like Morocco it is very poor and had limited intrastructure and only accepted . Four Seasons were building a resort at the time. Anyway despite the poverty, property on the Four Seasons resort and another now sells for well over $1m, indeed very small land only plots sell for over $1m!

Hi ScottishGuy

I think you have chosen well with Saidia. I too am buying LJDF there. There have been many posts on Saidia giving reasons / views on why buying there should prove rewarding, but for me there are two reasons I think Saidia will be the pick of the Plan Azzur resorts for capital appreciation:

1) Longer period between buying off plan and completion.
2) Release of prices for one or two of the other Plan Azzur resorts keeps being delayed. The developers aren't daft. They can see how prices are rising and they are holding fire on releasing off-plan property so they can maximise profit. This reduces your profit.

An example to back this up is Port Lixus. I visited there at start of July. I was informed prices for detached villas were likely to be released that month, they just had to finalise costs for furniture packages before deciding on off-plan price. As far as I know they still haven't released their prices. They also said the phase those villas were on was scheduled to be complete by end of 2007. They are going to be very busy to complete phase 1 (comparable to Saidai phase 1) by end of 2007, but if they do the investors will only get about a year of appreciation during the build period.

the Aussi market has been well covered on this site as well.
There is no way its in freefall.

But, Queensland has had more than its fair share of property scams over the years, so beware.

Poland - Its the place for capital gains. Currently rocketing prices.

In the EU too so somewhat safer.

It's true that less desirable property in Sydney has fallen over the past 18months or so but that was seriously over-valued stock anyway. To say that Australia is in free-fall is just plain wrong. The Melbourne market has largely stagnated over the past couple of years, Brisbane has seen modest gains and Perth is still booming on the back of the mining/commodities boom.

The property scams on the Gold Coast are pretty much dead these days due to regulation, this part of Queensland is the fastest growing in the country. The corridor between Gold Coast and Brisbane is rife with new developments to support new migrants to the area.