i have just joined this forum but have been reading not only this forum but the C4 forum and eyeonworldwide.
Now it seems to me that these forums were set up so evryone who has similar investments or is keen to invest in certain areas , can pass on any info they feel may benefit others or ask anything they are unsure of.
I have looked into morocco becuase i feel it will be a more classier/cultural resort/destination than dubai and would be somewhere that i would like to go on holiday.
I am not worried about terrorists and such like as they can strike anywhere and feel that one should have faith in god and should not let anyone stop you from living.
I am lookin at marrakech and casablanca becuase of culture and i believe that if you are going to travel, then you should let it open your eyes to other cultures and ways of living and let that benefit you as a person.
But i am also lookin at saidia because i do feel that it will be a good investment and a good holiday resort.
There are many people who will go there to use the facilities on offer . It will attractive to lots of diferent groups of people...ones who want to go on a long weekend playing golf, ones who want to go for a quick break , ones who want to take their families and have lots of activities for their children but do not wanna spend time travelling in a car..i think it will be fantastic.
I have heard people mention that its next door to Algeria...so what does that mean, that Algeria will invade Morocco?
Only yesterday i heard that Britain has opened its door's to a huge influx of romanians and bulgarians...does that mean we should emigrate or be worried that ur houses will fall in price? if anything, it means all these people will need housing...great oppurtunity if your able to let out housing to these people...
also by saying that saidia is next door to algeria, does that imply that all algerians are terrorists? was zidane not from this region?
i reckon there maybe more would be extremists in this country than in africa...
also, yes shows like a place in the sun do lead to people buying into certain places but if it does, then this in turn helps those who got in early, as they may have a resale market for thier investments...plus , shows like place in the sun, help make destinations seem nice and do encourage/influence viewers to go thier on holiday and are great forms of advertisement for the resort.
finally, i have placed alink from the times...you will see that morocco is an upcoming destination and one that will remain so for years...
http://travelsearch.timesonline.co.uk/TOL/...country=Morocco

Are you really comparing Algerians with Romanians and Bulgarians?

i am not comparing anyone at all and to do so would amount to racism...just sharing my thoughts...what has Saidia being close to Algeria have to do with investing over there or using the resort,once developed,as a holiday destination?

Investing in a major city is quite different from buying in an unbuilt holiday resort!!

I agree with you. I also think that Saidia will be a nice place, as will many other places in Morocco. The only big problem is the price which is almost double of what should be.
And the other problem is the rental return which will not be biogger than Canary Islands and Spain which both offer plenty of rentals for not much more than £100/week.

So it is not really an investment in Morocco but is buying a holiday home for an exagerated price. And paying the exagerated price shoulkd happen only if one considers Morocco as his/hers ideal place for a holiday.

you are quite correct...but it has to start from somewhere...now i am not saying i am a pioneer or comparing Saidia to any other destination but was not Florida just a swamp before Walt Disney built his disney empire? I have read up on this and the development i have gone for is bank guaranteed and i will not be signing any contract unless i see that in writing. i am goin over there for a visit in a few weeks ,having reserved 2 apartments. I will then hand over 20% upon signing of my contract, which i will do in front of my london based solicitor, who deals with overseas investments.
I feel that the king of morocco has backed this resort and will ensure that it succeeds. After all, how can a leader of a country be seen to fail in the eyes of the world and his people?

Florida will have the mother of all price crushes so it is not a good comparion.

About the king: what happens if he is overthrown? Can you base your investment on one person's world?

yes, the prices are more than other places but again, i do want to make use of this as a holiday home, as i like the sound of it. Also, because its the only kind of resort on the med and has 3 golf courses with all the 5 star amenities aswell as supermarkets and shops, and the king has stated that no other development will take place around this resort for the next 15years, i guess thats where the premium comes in.
hopefully, the saying of you get what you paid for, will be true here.
in all the other devlopments, your apartment with a sea view may no longer be that , if there is land in front,which becomes a new development...this resort is 4miles long and 2 miles deep...my apartments are on the golf course and around 700 metres from the beach and a half amile from the commercial centre and next to the sports facilities...ideal for a holiday.
and if the rentals on this are more than the canary islands, there are people out there who will pay the extra for a more better /refined for of destination.

Anybody thinking of spending /putting at risk their hard earned money in Morocco would do well to read all the threads on this forum........

Disney Land is a fantasy place.......and so are many developments in far flung places. Personally I would rather visit the swamp !!

If you want it as a holiday home and you think it is the ideal house for you, then this is an excellent reason to buy. But do not consider Kins' words as being sacred (because they are not).

And no, Morocco will never be a more refined destination than good places in Spain or Portugal. Morocco will never have the infrastructure and services. Morocco will be in the same league as Egypt, with lots and lots of hussles.

This displays a lot of ignorance on your part.

Of course you can pay £100 per week in Canaries or Spain but you are not comparing actual resorts like for like.

SHOW ME AN UP MARKET GOLF VILLA WITH OWN POOL, A CHOICE OF COURSES AND ON ITS OWN BEACH FOR £100 PWK.


Also a halve decent villa in Menorca (a Spannish island) will set you back at least £1000 per week and there are thousands of them for well over £2000 per week NOT ON A GOLF COURSE AND NOT ON A BEACH.

Please get your facts right then I can have a decent debate

i have a villa in florida, which is doin ok and it's price has risen...why do you say it is due a crash?
and did the king not succeed a king? are you not goin to invest in this country because labour may lose the next election or that there maybe a new chancellor with different economic policies?
if the locals in morocco benefit from the increase in tourism and if the new developments are planned in such a way that they do not impact adversly upon the locals, why do you feel the king will be overthrown?
finally, nearly every country is keen to develop its tourism as they all see it as a good way of influx of currency into the country...its basic economics.
if the king is overthrown , it will be on political grounds and i am sure, the new ruler will carry on with the developments...and if he does not, then thats just life...we are born,..we will all go one day..takin risks is just a part of life...if i do not gain from this investment, it will not be the end of me financially...if i do gain, i may gain in so many ways...

Another demonstration of the ultra pessimist who never takes a risk.

We might as well say what if there is a run on Banks in the UK and we loose our money, or Bird flu might wipe us out.


Investment is all about risk otherwise it isnt an inflation busting investment.

Can you show me a decent low risk investment (Ive asked you this a few times)?




Fair enough Morocco is'nt for you.

Now tell me an investment you would recommend?

i really enjoy these forums...i work shifts at the airport, lookin after an airlines IT...the forums help pass the time..i am not a big timeinvestor but just someone, who when he can, takes a plunge..i bought a flat a mile frommanchester city centre,in a regeneration area.my mates in manchester said the area was a dive..i took the plunge...i now have had the aprtmnet for a few years and it has been out on rent since..its value has also increased..new developments around it are comin in at twice what i paid..nice...god willing, it will carry on bein sweet...
i feel this saidia, will also be sweet...it has the makings...

1) A whole nation doesnt have to be refined in order to have pockets of high priced real estate (this is true the world over from Barbados to Argentina, Thailand to Turkey)

2) Malaysia was one of the poorest nations 40 years ago and totaly aid dependant. Now its the 16th richest THINGS CAN CHANGE DUUUUUUUUUUH


3) Many of us dont find Spain refined. I know I holiday there and Im sick of all the wealthy gaudy east enders with thier fat thighs and gold soverigns. To many of us refinement is so much more than just roads

4) Perhaps the appeal of Morocco will be a raw ethnic exotic mixed with luxury resorts. Many famous artists and actors have favoured Morocco as did the Hippies.


I dont think you are ever going to understand. Stick with the grotty Canaries, I can smell the fried Brittish breakfasts from here

Weekend golf trips - short haul works wonders for these moneyspinners. Will Morocco fit into this short haul? The Algarve just about manages so why not? Dogbox has picked a winner here.

As for the ultra-pessimists dogbox talks about, just because they don't like Morocco doesnt mean they dont take risks

Well, £100+ is for a 1 bedroom apt. Considering that you rent it 1/2 of the time (very optimistic), this is about £250/month. This £250/moth will cover a loan of
about £35000 for 25 years. Therefore most of the people who buy now in Spain or wherever are losing money.

An apartment in good location in Spain costa about £70000-£100000 which would imply a payment of about £750/month. Add the maintenance fee of about £50/month and the damage is £800/month. So the "investment" is bad and the prices will become much less in the next few years.

If you look at http://www.ownersdirect.co.uk/balearics/B737.htm, you find villas in Menorca for about £400/week. And the villa is rented for 2 weeks in the next year or so.

For Morocco, divide that amount by two.

If you go to http://www.holidaylettings.co.uk/, you will see that the 2-bedroom apts. in Morocco let for £200 and very few people actually rent them.



Considering this very naive statement, I do not think that you understand very much about what is happening in the real estate nowadays.



Depends where you go in holidays. The way you discuss, I am sure you went to all the bad places in Canary Islands, without making any effort to see the good ones.

The fact that you discuss so much about Morocco, without making the effort to even go there denotes a large amount of ignorance and iresponsability from your part.
You might be a good investor, because investment is most of the time done by people who do not think too much and take risks, but that might be it...

Exactly

The heart of the issue here is pessimism.

Pessimists are always stuck in the here and now. What's here and they can touch and understand they accept, but anything new totaly freaks thier minds.

Time and time again the pessimists get it wrong but amazingly they never change.

For them every new idea says 'caution' for us it says 'explore'.

I like some low risk investments for example shops in the UK but I also like a bit of juice.

They will never understand, ah well

Just because we do not agree with your iresponsible ideas, that makes us pessimists?

You have no right to talk about Morocco, its king and all because you have no idea what Morocco is. I bet you are a real estate agent working for one of the
thieves who wants to extort money for houses in Morocco. Therefore I shall ignore you from now on.

Got you again

M8 you really are'nt comparing like for like.


I know Menorca well and the resort of Arenal you give is the chavviest most down market place you could ever imagine.

I got talking to an IT guy on holiday on a nice beach and he was totaly depresed that he was staying at Arenal. Its burger bars, Kids clubs and thumps round the ear from one end to the other.


Comparing these with Saidia is exactly like comparing Dagenham to Guildford.

I stay in an area called BINIDALI on Menorca. There the villas start at £1000 pwk and have no golf (let alone 3 courses) and absolutely no beach.

I heitate to recommend any investment BUT...put your money into the GOUTTE D'OR area of Paris ( which is in the east of the 18th arrondissment ) and my GUESS is that you will see 18% for 2 years with 10% entry costs and a rent that would cover your mortgage repayments (on a 25yr repayment mortgage).

I would not recomend you buy any street (there are 3 good ones ) and that you visit to see the area first for about a month or so to get a feel for the market.

The best bit is that there is a possibility of an exit strategy, as it is an active market.

I am as keen on Paris as you are of Morocco.....but I personally am not buying at present. I prefer to play on my allotment and travel while the markets generally are having a good shake down.
Fancy a beer some time?

[
i have a villa in florida, which is doin ok and it's price has risen...why do you say it is due a crash?



Considering this very naive statement, I do not think that you understand very much about what is happening in the real estate nowadays.

ok...now i came on this forum to share my thoughts and feel i have explained my view about morocco being a good thing...you seem to slate everything i have to say...if your such an expert, tell me, a naive person, why my statement about florida is naive and why i have no understanding of real estates?
if you cannot then i suggest you refrain from making such kind of assumptions.

as for dogbox, even if he is an agent in disguise...do you really think we/me would take on an investment or a purchase on the say so of one or a few people? that just shows ....lets just say it does you no favours.

Ok People this is turning in to one big cat fight. Lets get back to basics and get discussing things so that newbies like me can glean some usefull information.
One thing that i dont understand, since i started to look at investing abroad i have seen hundreds of new developments around the world. the one thing that they all seem to have in common if golf! this aside can someone tell me with every development getting bigger and better then the last and with the shear quantity that is available is it possible for property prices to just keep going up and up. are there that many
wealthy people around.With a new hotspot rearing its head almost every week and prices getting higher and higher every week,more and more supply people are bound to start losing out soon aren't they?

I have some safe and steady investments, which I would class Paris as, however I took the decision recently to get into some more aventurous stuff such as Morocco.

For me the risk was balanced with the cost. You just dont get meditteranean detatched villas with pool, on golf and on beach for £170000. Sure you get non - golf, non beach villas in down market resorts without pools for this price but this is an invalid comparison.

can i just ask you if you know which airlines have agreed to fly to saidia?

Go at www.zillow.com and you will see the drop in price of your Florida property. Then go again in 6 months form now and you will see the 25% drop in price.
And so on.

Yes. Firstly comparitive property in virgin resorts tends to shoot up in value until that new location / country reaches parity with others.

Secondly millions of former eastern block nationals are on the way up. These people are essentially the same as us and those that built America so they aint gonna sit around accepting poverty for long.

If you take Estonia as an example it was one of the poorest nations in Europe but is now one of the worlds fastest growing economies with GDP growth of about 8% this year. Many of these nations have had year on year growth since 2000 above 6%.

Latvia is expecting 13.8% growth this year.

All these millions will want holidays in warm climates AND THIS MEANS HUGE DEMAND ON FINITE BEACH PROPERTY.

Saidia has an impressive world class marina. WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? Well, there is a very limited supply of berths in the med as they are expensive to build and require certain natural conditions. Old economy citizens already place huge demand on marina resources and this will be compounded with new money from new economy citizens.


America has low population density yet still prices of real estate have rocketed. Europe has a much higher density so this again means prices IN VIRGIN AND UNDERVALUED REGIONS (such as Germany, Montenegro, Morocco) CAN ONLY GO UP.

this is all good, and i have reserved on saidia but although i am due to fly out there soon, i cannot find any info on what airlines have agreed to fly to oujda or near saidia, direct from the uk...do you have any info on this?

Has it ?

I didn't know it was finished ??

Please show us some pics ??

Oh, sorry, you mean 'Saidia has an impressive world class marina planned'

Interestingly, I visited the website suggested by someone here I think it's called holidaylettings.co.uk, very interesting. It got me thinking, as I was browsing the Turkish resorts for villas (I love Turkey), the villas there are of such good quality as are the beaches/hospitality etc. And it got me thinking about all the lovely fishing ports in Turkey. Very picturesque they are too.

Not that many fishing ports in Morocco I can tell you.

I wonder why ??

BTW, Dogbox, you are very good at reminding others of comparing like for like, but when are you going to start practising what you preach ?? You are constantly talking about Saidia as if it's all finished and comparing it to places that are ?? Saidia is YEARS away from completion.

And thats what buying off - plan is all about, funny that.

When my fellow investor visited the marina had just been flooded so we are getting there.


Turkey - nothing wrong with that, I like the place but I dont think you will find a 3 bed detatched own pool villa fully furnished on an impressive upmarket resort with 850 b marina, 3 golf courses and a beach that attracts top hotels for £170000. Let me know if you do

As I said, practice what you preach, compare like with like. Is it finished ?? Do you know what you GOT for your £170,000 ??

And why do you say World Class Marina ?? Explain what is so World Class about this Marina that doesn't even exist yet ??

Answer those and then I'll ask you more questions. That way I'll get some answers rather than what you appear to sometimes be doing i.e. avoiding the issues.

Biglog, you can also find rentals at

www.ownersdirect.co.uk

You can see hundreds of cheap rentals in beautiful places in Turkey and other places. Purchase prices really have to go down a lot, otherwise it is much more convenient to rent than to own.
The capital gains are over in Turkey and in almost all the touristical places.

Thanks Catara, I will take a look.

BTW, can I ask, what experience do you have with Morocco - you are obviously quite passionate about this subject ?? Which places have you visited ??

Biglog

I am not passionate at all, I am just fed up with the publicity agents make for Morocco and its outrageous prices. I made the mistake of asking several companies about the availabnility and prices in Morocco about 6 months ago and they keep bombarding me with phone calls and being quite heavy with their offers and being suprised I do not realize that Morocco is the best investment in the world. More or less what dogbox says...

I have been to Agadir, Tangier, Marrakesh, Fez, Casablanca and other smaller places. Considered them very interesting but not somewhere I would like to return year after year.

This is fast becoming my point of view. In response to rising prices beyond rising construction costs supply will enter the market. Especially where beaches/golf in concerned as there are a lot of beaches and golf courses can be constructed almost anywhere.

Polaris has suffered due to supply problems, many people investing there have perhaps just washed there face at present (if that) due to effective oversupply, also the quality of the investor is quite poor and dumping is becoming an issue further adding to the supply problem.

Dogbox has countered this with 5* offers a premium and he has gone for the best this protects you against general market overcrowding. The point to made is it is impossible to determine the quality/reality of off-plan, also indirectly to some extent prices of such properties will still partially be determined by the rest of the general market.

The other point I would make is that one apartment in Polaris can differ significantly from another although the difference is slight in practice (i've used the example of the supermarket but there are many others). The point to be made here is that off plan purchasing never reveals overiding problems (no one tells you about them) let alone the 'slight' problems which can effect the price of an apartment by as much as 30%. They are almost impossible to differentiate at off plan stage.

I'm not saying Polaris/Saidia are akin to one another just an approximately of what could in reality happen.

The cost to acquire, maintain and turn a property is also very high when the market is not stellar.

Okay, maybe 'fed up' would have been more appropriate - I was just being polite !

I've been to all of those places, as well as Rabat, El-Jadida, Ouzoud, Mellila, Saidia, Oujda, Essauoara and loads of smaller places !

Over here on Business, invested a lot of money, so not quite sure why Dogbox would refer to me as a Pessimist when I've put my money where my mouth is (and am continuing to put).

Renting out here at the moment, having been here a few years, only now do I feel I know enough about the place and it's laws and culture to start stepping into buying a place of my own in an area I know something about (it all takes time).

Thanks for the links btw, both of them were VERY helpful and will probably assist us in planning some future holidays.

Biglog



Well said, and something I've been saying all along - to you know who who has never stepped into the country/town he claims to know like the back of his hand.

Part of me says Dogbox is a fantasist with so much time on his hands and nothing better to do (he is after all onto 2500 posts so far), the other part of me says he's a ******** !

There are many other sites with rental places depenmding where you want to go. Also sites like

www.otbeach.com
www.travelrepublic.co.uk

offer very good hotel prices.

This year we went twice to Canary Island paying £100/week for nice 1 bedroom apts. You can even bargain hard with the owners if they are desperate to rent (most of them are very desperate).

BigLog:- Why haven't you invested in Moroccan property? Put aside the property for tourism for now, you must have considered buying normal property if you have been over there so long. Perhaps you have thought about buying traditional housing near the new toursit developments? I imagine they will see good appreciation, perhaps better percentage wise than elsewhere.

We might not agree about potential for tourist property stock appreciating, so rather than debate this why not let us know where in Morocco you feel the best property investment lies?

Hi Soup Dragon,

Because I believe it takes time to get to know a place. Now that our business is developing, I feel that we *can* take root here, so our decision will be based on location of business, school for children, nice area etc etc.

I *have* considered buying property here, of course I have, but I am *very, very* glad I didn't because I am wiser and know what's out here.

I've said it before, so please excuse me for sounding selfish, I'm not prepared to divulge my hard earned experience for free. I've extended an olive branch to Dogbox, merely advising him, as a cyber friend, to just come out here and see for himself before he commits, he won't do it. I think that's incredibly stupid.

Regarding your question about the best property investment, I am no fortune teller, nor am I a property investor/developer, so I really wouldn't like to point anyone to what I think as it'd only be my opinion and also, quite honestly I wouldn't want a stampede to be created at what I may wish to move to !

All I say is if you like the place, and you want to live here, you're welcome. If you want to buy a place to rent it out and only visit it here a couple of weeks yourself, I don't have too much a problem with that.

But to come on this forum and day-in-day-out ramp a place you've never set your foot on, never smelt, heard, enjoyed - how can you possibly be taken seriously ??

see, thats what i want to do..i want a holiday home in a nice muslim country, not too far from the uk..i lived in pakistan for a year and quite like the hustle/bustle...i am on this forum for other people's views..now you say you have travelled over the country...what area would you say would best suit me in terms of holidaying and renting out? i am also considering buying a house with a view of living there when i retire....would be grateful for some general advice...i can leave my email address if you want ...

I'm not saying Polaris/Saidia are akin to one another just an approximately of what could in reality happen.

[/quote]


CLUB MANGA Spain is a premium resort.

A 3 bed detatched villa on the golf starts at c£500000 with pool and a/c (many are a lot more than 500k).

The resort has no marina (let alone an 840 berth marina) and no beach (other than a tiny brown strip which is totally crowded and unattractive). It has vastly less facilities than Saidia will have.

I paid £170k

I may be wrong and make no money. On the other hand my villa might just be worth as much as the La Manga one day given it has a vastly superior beach (7km) and far more facilities (for example 19 classy beach clubs).

I recognise nothing is guaranteed and the build quality might be cr@p but Im prepared to take the risk AND NOTE NONE OF US WILL HAND OVER THE REMAINING 60% IF THERE ARE BUILD SNAGGS

Guys, perhaps your right I will make no money. I dont want to fight you. Lets just wait until 2010.

I understand your point about my not visiting but for me there is no point in a visit for 2 reasons:

1) An old and trusted freind did the visit (he is also buying). We both did UK B2L a while back and know how each other tick. I trust his judgement. He is a sucesfull businessman and very very careful. He turns down 99% of the property he considers.


2) All the visit will show me is a vast building site. So what? My freind did a DVD of the site and its meaningless just as his visit was. In the end Im taking a chance, end of. If Im wrong then I get my capital back or possibly loose it if the developer goes bust. If Im right Ill get a sigificant capital return.


Donald Trump says 90% of his deals are done on gut alone. Ive found if you look into anything very thoroughly you always talk yourself out of it. Sometimes you just go for it.

Note my prediction on this forum in January that London prices would increase 8 - 10% by Autumn. 99% of posters here said I was a complete muppet for this prediction.

Again I relied on common sense and gut feel. So far so good.

Wrong.

I am going over to view the saidia site in jan 2007. I have waited this long purely for the reason i wanted to see something when i got there. If id have gone when i placed my holding deposit it would have just been flattened ground and a show home...not worth the trip in my book! Now the marina, parade, beach huts, apartments etc are up you can much more easily picture the finished resort.
My only complaint is that fadesa arent doing a regular uptodate website about how the resort is progressing. I know theres some photos on eyeonworldwide but they're only amateur ones. Anyway i suppose theres nowt we can do about it!