As some of u know I recently bought in Matalan.
My next target is Morocco, here's why:

* No income Tax on the rent. Well no rent full stop really - note I am only looking at high quality property within a low rise ,until I see the finished product and realise it looks like a butlins holiday chalet, low density mega resort (classy though) with 3 18 hole golf courses which along with polaris world over the pond there will mean more golf courses in the area than plumbers in Bulgaria once they join the EU, hospital, equestrian centre, polo pitch, water parks, disneyworld, the pyramids , gucci, the pound shop and some guy selling tat on the beach, 800 berth marina, and my property has a 60 year mooring berth (until I get the contract and find out it doesn't even have air con) all fully managed, yes thats more money i'm going to piss away, including the rent side although this will be none, forested green area ( probably a tree), full security although its the security that usually end up nicking everything, restaurants, yes even macdonalds are moving in, its that big, cinemas, Olympic pools, bowling alley (with pacman machine area), shopping centre, the hanging gardens of babylon - all very tastefuly done in Moroccon style (all look like huts) by UK and Spanish builders, well obviously that means bulgarian/romanians - so renting will be easy, yes mud huts are in.

*Capital Gains Taxed above £60k @ 20% in first 5 years. Between 5 - 10 years its 10%. After 10 years its 0. Yep no ones bothered about taxing capital gains tax as there won't be any.

*The King has announced 'plan Azur', which aims to have Morocco become a premier destination by 2010. Along with just about everywhere else.

*Huge developments - Dubai style are underway backed by none other than Emaar Properties (although hang on a minute its meant to be low density).

*An 8km tunnel will link Gibralter to Tangiers by 2008, of course now i'm drifting into fantasy land.

*The 'stars' are moving in. Jade Goody and Rick Waller have been sold half price huts - this is important, the exposure of celebrity fit club in Morocco will be massive.

*An 'open skies' agreement has been signed and the Government guarantee world class airport upgrades by 2010. hence, the airport will have a new bog.

*Ryan Air have announced flights to begin by this summer. Its going to be THAT BIG.

*White sand, huge beaches so much more attractive than the black sand Canary Islands and over 1 hour clser. Ok its got a beach, then again so has Cape Verdi.

*'Exotic, yet close', have I mentioned the huts before.

*Huge infrastructure improvements underway. The Americans are investing billions in new ports to land the aircraft carriers when war breaks out in the region.

*Its just a hop from Spain BUT PRICES UP TO 10 X LOWER. Yes I am that far removed from reality a penthouse on Polaris world is only Euro 200,000 but i'm prepered to pay £180,000 based on this tosh.

*Im buying off - plan yet only part with 40%. The balance in 2009, yet I can sell on at any point. So my 40% leveredges me into 100% exposure to the market although ties up 40% doing nothing until 2011 as these devs always finish 2 years late and theres no proven resale market, we'll forget about solicitors fees and all that nasty stuff.

Once the public begin holidaying here 'en mass' the stampede will begin. IT WILL HAPPEN, JUST LIKE MEXICO HAS (and Mexico is much farther away). So is Bulgaria.

Spain is yesterdays news and Morocco is almost as close. Hence Morocco will be the day before the day before yesterdays news. Sunny Beach being the day before yesterdays news.

I think Im about to sign up for a villa - www.lejardindefleur.com (more MEW Im afraid). Within the most prestigious development - Saidia. £180k right on an 18 hole Golf course (3 to choose), marina and u get 60 year mooring rights for £10k!!!!!!!. Of course why dont I just buy on Polaris World, but this is Morocco.

Olympic pools, gated community, cinema, polo, equestrian centre, on the beach(6 km white sand), backed by snow capped mountains, forested area, plentiful water from mountains, on site Swiss rental company.
Villa has own pool. Fully serviced. Free membership to the club house. £180K!!!!! Totally safe gated development, all low rise, hospital on site. If I repeat it then it WILL HAPPEN.

Gucci and many others already purchased the shops surrounding the Marina - I wonder why?. I'm now really clutching at straws.

The same at La Manga in Spain would be £1m +. Although La Torre is a quarter of the price.

Rent for £4000 per week or more once site becomes well known. £60 per month maintenance charge includes pool maintenance and gardener. I think it will rent all year given the Golf and huge variety of quality facilities and year round climate. But even if it only rents for say 35 weeks and even if I only get say £1500 per week (which wont happen), the yield is still exceptionally high. If you role a dice with various rental returns on it this sort of result happens at least 15% of time - LOOK I'VE GOT PROOF.

The bit I really like is only having to part with 40% for 3 years. Ok no yield on the 40% so I loose say £3600 pa interest, but I genuinely expect the value to more than double over 3 years. I look at property all over the world and have found nothing of this quality for the price this close to home. Places such as Bulgaria are way less important given the short season and lack of feel good sun factor. Although Polaris has struggled to get any real gains in the three years since build commenced and thats got excellent transport links and the area is established.

Villas come fully furnished right down to tea spoons. But hang on whats happened to the air con.

That's the only part your brochure got it wrong.

tell them to change the story with the black sand Canary Island, there are some of them with nice Sahara's sand.

But I aknowledge that the rest of magnificent properties of your "investment" are accurate.

What was the point in all that?...man you've got too much time on your hands.

Hello Bricking it

well at least we got a bit of a giggle.

Brickingit,

just a word of warning, get a tax advisor. All the marketing speel you get on tax free this and no CGT that, is only viable to Moroccan tax - & you still have to pay the full tax here in the UK. It looks good on web sites but check out what a dual tax agreement actually means - you don't pay tax in both countries, so if you pay 0% income tax in Morocco, you still pay 23% or 40% here. BTW: I've also bought in LJDF. You could always keep your money offshore and hope the tax man doesn't find you, but it's a risk.

villas in Morocco without air-com? They really have thought of everything :-)

LJDF villas have air con hot and cold.

Agtish - where are you investing? I like to spread my investments, indeed I am still considering Estonia (£10k appartments to let out), so perhaps you have a recommendation for me?

Get a life beancounter, its a green light on this and thunderbirds are go. Have you not heard of capital gains loss relief, the loss I make on this will serve me well by offsetting the gain on my property in Sunny Beach (only 300m from the sea front with ten golf courses planned in the area).

I am a Warren Buffet like visionary.

ive stated on a previous thread - im investing in saidia, i like estonia for a medium-long term investment though (stating the obvious) the location has got to be spot on.

Which country?

Never read it.

OK Brickingit and catara

In your opinion, we are the biggest fools ever to have lived.

OK , does that make you happy?

Now as my sons say, "GET OVER IT!"

We're quite happy with what we've done We've considered the options, compared risks and rewards, like Saidia and are absolutely fine with what we've done. So why don't you go and spend your time on something else, leave us alone and come back in four years and then we'll assess the situation again?

You want to have the forum only to yourself?

If you cannot accept opinions contrary to yours, it means you are an insecure person.

You sound like a person who considered the options, don't you?

Catara

Morocco is a new & therefore nerve wracking investment arena. I fully understand why someone such as yourself would rather leave it to others to be the Guinea Pigs, but that does'nt make us fools.

I too invest in 'cheap' property , for example Im looking at flats in Estonia for £12000 or less, so I fully appreciate the price spectrum of global real estate.

Saidia is cheap, on that I am absolutely certain and time will reveal this to you.

Iran, Iraq, Syria and Lebanon are extremely cheap at the moment. They too are islamic states and I would suggest now is the right time to enter the market. mmmmmm... not interested. Well as you say there are those that take risks and those that don't. There are levels of risk and Morocco and Estonia are not risks they are just well marketed projects aimed to look like high risk/high gain. In fact I remember Turkey having the same spin 4 or 5 years ago. As my Gran used to say "you can't polish a turd"

gotcha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


TO DEMONSTRATE JUST HOW LITTLE YOU KNOW, HERE WE GO:

1) BEACHES - THIS IS PROBABLY THE MOST IMPORTANT PART

La Torre - none, its a 20 minute drive then 5 minutes to park and walk)

Saidia -7 km sandy beach (so Golfers other halves have a reason to visit)


2) OWN POOL

La Torre - none

Saidia - each villa has own pool


3) GOLF

La Torre - 1 course

Saidia - 3 courses and owners can use them all



4) Build size

La Torre - each villa is 81.77 m2

Saidia - from 125 m2


5) Bedrooms

La Torre - 2

Saidia - 3



6) MARINA

La Torre - none

Saidia - 840 berths built to the highest possible standard with all facilities and Port status


7) Package

La Torre - NO furniture, NO fittings, NO aircon, NOTHING except white kitchen applicances

Saidia - fully furnished 'turn key' with Seimens and Mobilla appliances, Air Con, satellite TV and yes even tea spoons and towells



8) Hotels

La Torre - 1 own brand

Saidia 8+ internationally renowned hotels chains - WHICH MEANS FREE EXPOSURE to underpin rentals and 500000 visitors who are potential resale buyers


9) Facilities

No comparison, chalk and cheese



AND THE PRICE

La Torre for a 2 BED without pool etc = £183000

Saidia 3 bed with pool etc = £170000 is the price I paid



















Yes and some investors I know have made hundreds of thousands in the last 3 years by flipping a few off - plans in Turkey.

How much did your Nan make in 3 years?

As for Estonia it isnt packaged or marketed. If you bothered to check you would find that Frank Knight international charterred surveyors have it as the fastest growing market for the lasr 2 years.

You stick with UK B2L, every other Monkey I know thinks its a magic money pot. Of course they are at least 4 years too late.

Gotcha!!!!

On one hand you say Estonia isnt packaged or marketed and in the next breath you say Frank Knight have it as the fastest growing market for the last two years!!!

You need to work out who's pulling your strings because when the music stops I'm sure Frank Knight will have a bit more than a pot to p@ss in.

You're right of course people getting in originally and selling to the suckers do always do OK especially when you time it to coincide with the UK's period of highest HPI. I dont see any property explosions in Turkey at the moment though and with a plumetting Lira things are just going from bad to worse there.



The more important question in 4 years time will be "How much did your Nan lose in the past three years" and I'm sure it will be a lot less than what you and a lot of UK B2L people will lose in the coming crash. swings and roundabouts.

Fully agree about UK B2L. It is going to be talked about as the big investment swindle that led to a great deal of OAP poverty in 20-30 years time. The sad thing is that a lot of BTL people I know have been pumping people up with one hand and have been offloading with the other. Invariably it is the most niaive in society that will suffer when the pop happens next year.

Factually incorrect on a number of counts (in particular you can use all Polaris Courses in the area, its set up for golf not all things to all men/women and Spain=golf pure and simple name me anyone who goes to Morocco to play golf, It has good access and infrastucture 10-15 mins from airport, who wants tons of hotels nearby I want low density and dont forget all that TV advertising + Jack, La Torre is well finished and has underground parking and looks very good it may not have furnishing but it has everything else and it has sat TV).

Plus

La Torre = Exists.

Saidia = At present a glossy Brochure probably backed by contracts that have more caveats (or a single overiding caveat) than you can mention.

You'll probably end up overlooking a Supermarket. Dont laugh this has happened to a few buyers in La Torre. They never saw it coming, neither will you, along with a hell of a lot of other things.

BrickingIt: There's a world of difference between investing in a small development being run by a less than scrupulous developer and investing in Saidia. This is the King's flag ship development and most of the property is being built by Fadesa - neither a tin pot or unscupulous developer. If you visit Saida you will see it is a hive of activity. It is not simply a glossy brochure.

Do stick with Polaris World, I see from the frequent adverts on TV that prices haven't changed a great deal over the last year or so. You wouldn't want to get stuck with all that capital appreciation that the poor souls who have invested in Morocco have found themselves with.

In the end it comes down to pessimism v optimism.

Ive given you the example of Great Exuma (Bahamas) a poverty stricken island with no infrastructure what so ever; Tiny beach plots on - golf within the grounds of the Four Seasons Resort were selling at over $1m 3 years ago, yet just outside the complex similar sized plots were $5000.

You simply dont seem to understand the reasons for such vast price differentials.

Its all about the ammenity a development provides and in the end people will definitely put a high price on a choice of courses on a big beach within a green nature reserve that has the cache of an ultra modern massive marina.

You call any agent in Spain and ask them if they have any new villas comming up which are on - golf and on - beach with significant marina facilities. You will find it impossible unless you go into to very serious numbers.

If you dont get it now you never will, until in about 5 years when you see these same properties selling for 3 x the price.






Err, Saidia is low density and its vast.

Can you not see the appeal of villas with own pools etc etc that have 3 courses within the grounds (not a drive to others like Polaris has). Users wil love the fact they can roll out of bed, have a swim and then be spoiled by 3 courses AND swim in the sea WHICH THEY CAN WALK TO.

Do you get it yet?

I also note the Polaris dev has a RANG OF FASTFOOD restauarants Not exactly classy eh

Oh and it will be a 20 min drive when the new motorway from airport is complete soon.

"There is a high threat from terrorism in Morocco. In May 2003, 45 people were killed in a series of terrorist attacks in Casablanca. These attacks were against relatively soft targets, including hotels and restaurants frequented by foreigners or those with Jewish links. Although the Moroccan authorities arrested and imprisoned a number of those considered to be responsible for the attacks, there is a high threat of further attacks. In August 2006, the Moroccan authorities arrested a number of individuals allegedly plotting to attack a number of targets, including noticeably Western interests."

Does it mention this in any brochures?

You won't find that in the brochures. What I find encouraging on this front is how the risk is reduced by a pro-active Government that seeks out the trouble makers before such events occur. Similarly, if you have tried driving in Morocco you will know how hard it is to progress even two or three hundred metres in the cities without there being a couple of police men on the road. They are everywhere and the proportion of vehicles stopped is probably a lot higher than most realise.

Still Terrorism is a threat that won't go away. Much like it is here in UK.

Dogbox

Do you think Saidia wont have fastfood restaurants?.

Do you think it wont be crammed full of 1 bed flats?.

Do you think it wont have a supermarket?.

Do you think now they have your 40%, your brochure, even contract (if you've seen it) means nothing?. On OFF PLAN contracts are vital given the long lead time here. Never heared much on the contracts just the Lovely people stuff.

Do you think think being next to Algeria doesn't (rightly or wrongly) scare alot of foreign investors/holiday makers?.

In terms of golf do you think Spain will ever be beat for Golf?.

Who owns the golf courses, who designed them, whats the ratio of potential numbers to the number of people who can actually play at any one time?. Its alright having squillions of Hotels etc but that may lead to overcrowding?. Three golf couses can only accomodate say 1000 people a day. I prefer a community this sounds a bit overblown and I could look like a building site for years to come with little co-ordination.

I'm not saying all the above is true, Saidia could work well, I just have never heared anything in depth just a re-iteration of the lovely people stuff and it just doesn't look that affordable given the unknowns/risks, economic backdrop and vast competition thats springing up on every beach.

BrickingIt. The hotels are a mix of 4 and 5 star. There will be nothing cheap and cheerful. This will limit demand for cheap 'restaurants'. Saidia won't be crammed full of 1 bed flats. Look at property for sale there. There are more two and three bedroom properties than 1 bedroomed ones. Saidia is not a high density development either (I'm picking up on your use of the word crammed again.) It is well spaced out and green (golf, gardns, trees, etc.) There will be su[ermarkets, but not your cheap chearful stuff. I believe one of Spain's largest supermarket chains has bought a site there (can't remember name off hand.)

Of course those buying in Saidia will have seen contracts they signed - and prior to parting with 40%. (I don't know of anybody that has parted with 40% before signing contract. Nor do I know of any developers or agents that have asked that of thier clients.) We recognise how key contracts are and pinned down some of our concerns through additional clauses that we got added.

I know exactly were Bricking It is coming from. They always have the nice stuff and then a year down the line you start realising things are being dropped and the new brochure has a different artists impression and then the shops/hotels planned start dropping out the marina gets smaller etc etc.

I'm not saying this will happen but I have seen it many many times before in the UK and Spain. Just a warning I suppose. I have had first hand experience of glosssy brochures and ambitous projects. One was called Little Venice and was backed up by a very large well known developer. They even had the models and they had started the building work etc. Every phase they sold meant a change of plans and artist impressions. Basically the golf courses dropped to one and the hotels didnt happen. It ended up as just another ordinary high density development. It really opened my eyes though as lots of people had signed contracts and handed over vast deposits on the basis of brochures/plans that changed on a 6 monthly basis. In the end the 400 berth marina and inland canals didnt even come off and just became landscaped gardens. The sandy beach is still being used as an access route for builders vehicles.

This is the game you are now playing.

Totally overlooked amongst all the lovely people stuff.

Just how have you reduced risk in your contracts Soup Dragon?.

Egypt is filled up with 4 and 5 star hotels which cost about £200/week for all-inclusive. Saidia won't be better than El Gouna or Taba. And nobody will prefer putting life at risk by going to Morocco instead Spain, Italy or Portugal, Greece.

Just a few points. The marina is already built and flooded. The golf courses are already under constructon and the greens and tees built. The proposed water on the golf courses has already been created. Carrefour has signed an agreement to operate the 2 supermarkets. Our villas will not look onto the supermarkets because they are surrounded by the golf courses (and my contract stipulates which green I will be looking directly onto and includes a diagram). The beach is bordered by a promenade which is mostly constructed and paved already so will not be used as access for builders, etc........

Not quite. The threat levels are notr the same and neither are the consequences.

A terrorist attack on a soft target in Morocco will see tourist areas (and rental villas) emptying. Lots of Westerners unwilling and unable to get to their precious investments - I'm sure that'll please the Osama boys.

It's a totally different ball game in UK and the rest of Europe.

Jeez, you guys must not be very busy at work....oh, I forgot you are all property millionaires who spend all your time counting your cash and spouting twaddle on message forums.

Anyway, as most of you are know-alls, why not visit the Terrorism Knowldge Base -> http://www.tkb.org/Home.jsp and soak up a few facts to impress your friends with. For example, the fact that Morocco has had 46 deaths due to terrorist attacks since 1968 compared to 366 for the UK. Or maybe that there are only 4 known terrorist groups in Morocco, wheras there are 20 in the UK. It even has a corruption index, so you can compare how Pakistan rates against Turkey, Morocco etc (I only mention as I know this has been discussed).

Yes, I think terrorism in Morocco is a threat, as is the rise in fundementalism in that country, but we have to put things into perspective. Another thing to consider is that whereas terrorist attacks used to make a large impact on tourism, it now only shows as a blip. People move on and forget. This is well documented.

Several terrorist attacks (including the well publicised bombs on the beach) in Turkey had no discernible effect on tourism other than a brief knee jerk lasting a couple of weeks.

Same in the Red sea resorts and Egypt which have had many bombs over the last 15 years.

In the end life goes on and most of us dont let terror tactics cower us in fear. There will always be a small terrified minority, such as those that stopped using the London underground indefinitely despite the fact they are far more likely to be killed cycling to work





This has always been my stance, however I didnt know it was 'well documented'.

Youre right BTW about my having too much time on my hands. I dont feel guilty though as I spent years toiling for someone else, so I think I now deserve a bit of space , although Im not rich for sure.

Yes there have been studies comparing the effects of tourism after terrorist attacks since 9/11. Can't remember where, but a trawl of the internet will back me up.

Agree with Brickingit. As a property tax advisor who have also bought in LJDF you will still be taxed in the UK although could reduce the tax payable. Dont agree about not telling the tax man.

mmv

Jibber, you are taking statistics and making them fit your own beliefs.

For example, why go back to 1968? We weren't waging a "war on terror" in 1968. The battle between the West and Islamic fundamentalism is here and now. That's what is scary about investing in Moslem countries where the terrorist threat is all too alive.

As for terrorism having no impact on tourism, I hope you are right. But we have yet to see the impact of terror attacks in Moslem countries on Western interests. That's entirely different to attacks in London or Madrid.

Egypt's tourist trade suffered greatly following attacks on tourists precisely because Westerners - who stick out like sore thumbs - were frightened to go to Islamic countries.

And you are taking it a step further. It isn´t Egyptian hotels that lose out if Western soft targets are attacked in Morocco. It is you and other investors with your holiday villas. You are taking a much bigger risk. Holidaymakers can go elsewhere. Who will buy a villa in a terrorist attack zone if you want to move on?

Fear of an attack is as important as an attack itself. When New York was attacked it was probably the safest city in the world to visit in the weeks and months following. You won't be saying the same about Morocco.

I wish you well.

I agree terrorist threats to Morocco are a risk, just do not want to overplay. Quoted from 1968 as that is what the Terrorism Knowledge Base quotes - no other reason. Am not trying to play with statistics, but agree that we can all maniupulate for our own needs.





I think Egypt and Turkey are very good examples to use. Both countries have had their tourism affected by terrorism over the years. However, we are seeing that as terrorism becomes more commonplace, affects on tourism become less dramatic. When I get chance I will try and drag up some reports that back this up.

One last thing. Perception is everything. I can quote figures for ever, but if Joe Bloggs beleives that Morocco is full of mad muslim terrorists, then I agree he will not holiday there. It is sad but true - sometimes reality and perception can be very different.

I've been reading about Saidia for a while now and if I new the game well enough (fti) I would have reserved something by now.

What I haven't figured out yet is what will the net income be from the rent (after all the charges and tax). The last time I calculated, I found that on a 10K rental yield I would only realise a net income of around 4K - I think I did my sums wrong.

I only have 120k to spend on an investment - so I'm still reading on.....

Unwittingly, this ramping and ant-ramping feuds are answering a lot of questions bouncing in my head - and I'm still positive about it

http://britishexpats.com/forum/showthread....ighlight=fadesa

Interesting link Bricking It. We know these things happen, but not normally with more reputable developers like Fadesa. (I realise that thread is about Fadesa.)

Digs:- Feel free to post you calculation here. We might be able to firm up one or two of the assumptions you made and do a little sensitivity analysis.

Its impossible to predict.

EAs tell me rent gurantee of at least 6% is to be offered, but I think I will just let it myself because Im guessing based on experince I will get far higher than this, but if I dont thats no problem as I bought for growth not income.

BTW - perhaps a few of us RELIABLE people might want to pool our property and create a dedicated rental website and share the proceeds. Not too many of us as this will get to burdonsome. I already own several pertinent domain names.

Hi All,

Completly off the subject but i havent been about for a while and i thougt that you all might like to know that a major investment has been made on Jardin de Fleur by England footballers. For more info please click on the following link.

http://www.propertyshowrooms.com/Forum/Topic73-12-1.aspx

Regards,

Andy Welland

Here we go

The 'stars' are moving in. The Beckhams, Jude Law and Brad Pitt have recently bought - this is important, it sets the trends.

Dont forget Gary Neville.

I'm absolutely blown away that people are paying £170k to buy in a third world country.

Gobsmacked.

Insane doesn't even begin to describe it.

You could buy in the (very pricey) Caribbean for that cash.

When I heard people were rushing to buy in Morocco, I was guessing £10-£15k - maybe £30k-£40k for something really nice.

But £170k?

Must be having a laugh.

I mean, it's not like you could buy a 2000 sq ft place with private pool in Phuket for half that or anything
http://www.siamrealestate.com/property/propage.php?n=894



any 'invesment' that footballers are getting involved with is a sure one to avoid....

they're so thick, and they *always* get ripped off. Too much money, no sense.

This will do the profile of LJDF and Saidia no harm - Rio Ferdinand, G Neville and John Therry


The neg - heads have seriously misjudged this investment.

The poster who says you can buy cheaper in the Carribean, well yes you can and I almost bought in Great Exuma and seriously considered some other islands so I know that market fairly well. The point is you fail to understand Saidia is a world class up - market facility that will appeal to those wanting a vast range of facilities including 3 courses. The rentals will be possible all year (no hurricane season, no cold winter as will apply to Turkey and much of Spain) and its only 3 hour flight. Morocco is changing.

Another inaccuracy from DVD based investment expert.

The salesman probably told him it was a top of the range DVD then he found when he got it home it was a Betamax recorder.

Andy:- Thanks for the update. its been a while since we've had real news about Saidia. Link to your forum not working properly. Are you able to confirm which plots and how many houses are being bought?

DogBox:- Property pool / dedicated website is something I'd be interested in.