For details please see page 3 of 'Picnics' thread regarding Morocco.

I dont know how I transfer the post from the other thread to this one and I have'nt time to re - type.

Better deal? Florida, Arizona or California in about 2-3 years, after the biggest price crash one can imagine.

Yous house in Saidia will sell for 1/2 price by then.

Dogbox, point 24 says it all - you haven´t a clue as to the true value of your investment until it matures. All you have is a glossy brochure and promises in an untested market. And why the need for point 19 the way you gloss over the real terrorist threat to Western "compounds" in Morocco? One attack and you won´t be able to give your investment away.

Catara, you are much more confident of a crash than some others are of prices rising. In fact, you are certain. Those that predict rises appear to have backed this with money and I applaud them for it. Chances are that they have the money in the first place because they made a decision or two in their lives and backed it with real money. Anyone can say prices will fall and use it to justify their indecision around making investments until next year or the year after or the year after......but there are many ways of investing in falls if you believe in them. Have you backed your total confidence of falls with money? If not, I do not respect your confidence.

Well, you will see. I backed my confidence by selling the properties I had and now waiting for the prices to lower in some markets. 6% interest rate is OK for the money I have in bank. In 1-2 years I shall buy again.

BUt, as I said before, if one buys a property in MOrocco to hold for a longer period, then it is an excellent oportunity to have a
beachfront property in Saidia. They are not making anymore beachfront land.

32Red.

No I dont mean go to a casino and gamble it all.

I MEAN 32RED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is my mamma......

So Catara, you have sold your properties and the money is in the bank. From this safe position you are attempting to talk the market down before investing again. Can you not see that you are behaving in the same way as Dogbox except that he is financially exposing himself to his beliefs whereas you are not? I have no idea what will happen to property prices anywhere in a few years time and, yes, I will see (thank you) but I wont tell you “I told you so” because I didn’t. Please can you explain why my purchase in Saidia is a good long term investment (as you said in your last post) when I could purchase the same property at half the price in 2-3 years time (as you said in the post 7 hours earlier). PS. Which bank is giving you 6%? After tax?

I guess you know very well about Saidia investment.

In my world Dogbox. investment means a a return on money. Since you are not getting any cash flow ( and indeed it is negative ) I think you should change the title to 'where can I find another speculation as good as Sadia.'

As you say it is a punt. No more ,no less.

have a good weekend, Picnic

" Im Issuing A Challenge, Show me a better investment than Saidia Morocco?"

Sania Plage, Marina Smir. Because its an established area with rich Moroccan tourists paying a fortune to rent in July and August ... I've seen rental contracts of MRI employees. Its also closer to Gibralter. and the proposed new tunnel

Saida is unknown. It should work and I think it will, the facilities are very impressive and the king's reputation is on the line, but there are no guarantees.

Cheers Dream. Ive heard good things about your development although I dont know it myself.

When I issued the challenge it was in response to the neg - heads critiscisms of Saidia.

Not one of them has yet come up with anything

I called a few agents in Spain this week and said I wanted a detatched villa on a golf course (or with multiple courses on site as Saidia has) and on a substantial beach plus with top end marina. They all said Id need a million plus to even stand a chance, so again my £170000 (40% now, 60% in 3 years) looks a shrewd investment.

The neg - heads dont seem to realise the all round, all year appeal such a resort is going to have.

Sean. I'm sure if Catara wanted to take a punt on house prices falling he could. I imagine there are plenty of spread betting sites that will facilitate it. If correct he would have even more money in his bank to pick off the prime property that will have reduced so much in value in 2 to 3 years time. He could get DogBox's vills at a snip!

Phillipa. I think on #24 on list DoxBox meant that he's pleased to have full exposure to the market (which he expects to appreciate) for three years while only parting (and yes, risking) 40% of the purchase price.

As mentioned on other thread, I can't think of anything coming close to matching criteria DogBox gave for that price. I appreciate I'm biased given I have bought into the same development, but I'd been scouring the internet for 12+ months before buying into Saidia. I didn't see anything as good. As mentioed on other thread, the closest I could think of to meeting DogBox's challenge was a development with golf and sea views in Santiago Island Sal. It was cheaper, but had far less amenities and in my opinion wouldn't have anything like the drawing power Saidia will have.

What will be the drawing power of Saidia ??

Okay, it'll have villas, erm, yes.

It'll have shops, erm yippee.

It'll have golf courses. Okay, I used to play golf a fair bit myself when I was less committed to family/business etc, and I really can think of many, many places I'd want to try first before going on a golf holiday to Morocco (not slagging it off, just saying, as a golfer, what I think),

it'll have a marina - so ?

it'll have x number of 5 star hotels - again, so what ??

So, I ask unless I'm being really blind, stupid or both, and I've been to Saidia and I know what is there, what will be the drawing power of Saidia ??

There *really* isn't anything there to do.

Please, this is an honest question.

BigLog. First off, do you know development in Cape Verde I'm referring to?

I too have been to Saidia. I travelled there on my own, so had a look about. You know the bulk of what is offered on site. I agree there isn't that much to do nearby, though there are still two or three options that will appeal to many. They include:
1) Coastal road for going on run.
2) Snorkelling trips near to the three islands that lie a few miles West of Saidia. (Not so much for seeing fish, but one or two wrecks.)
3) This is the biggie. Saidia can be your base for holiday, but there are likely to be cheap internal flights from Oujda to Marakesh, Fez, etc. There are some internal flights just now, but as skies open up to budget airlines there is avery good chance people will be able to fly cheaply to these places for a day or two.

While I'd like for there to be more to do offsite, we both know that most tourists don't wander too far from site. Those that do should be able to find something of interest.

Coastal road for going on run ?? Do you mean jogging ?? Are you serious ?? Are you nuts ??

When did you go to Saidia ?? Which month ??

Sorry Soup Dragon, 3) isn't a biggie, it's a bloody enormous littleie. Anyone wanting to go to Marrakech, or Fes, is NOT going to base themselves in Saidia. Fes and Marrakech have TONS of things to do there. Fes is one of my favorite cities, it is teeming with touristic attraction.

Seriously Soup, I *really* think you guys know very little. I genuinely don't want to insult you, but I really could charge both of you a fair whack for giving you advice to save you tons of money.

Sheesh, 3) a biggie..........

It's like Dogbox saying there is skiing nearby to Saidia (I think he was quoting 40mins or 1hour) - THERE AREN'T ANY BLOODY MOUNTAINS NEAR SAIDIA !!!!!

Also Dogbox refers to year round rentals - erm, has he checked the year round climate chart ?? And I'm not just suggesting temperature (hint)

BigLog, think I'll pass on your offer of advice this time round!

Bur seriouly, when I said coastal road was good for a run I meant by car. It is 160km long!

I don't agree with you about point 3. I think this will appeal to people. I'm not saying a huge proportion of those visiting Saidia will do it, but flight time is 30 minute to an hour for Fez and Marakesh. That is very do able for a day trip or weekend. Marakesh has pulling power, there will be a good number of people that will want to see it without suffering the sweltering heat for long. You of all people should know this! (I haven't been to Marakesh, but I was in Fez and know there isn't a lot of difference climate wise.) Agree Fez has plenty to do. Really enjoyed my breif time there.

I was in Saidia at start of July. Weather was beautiful, though clearly that is high season. Temperature is nearer 18 degrees for two thirds of the year. That's ideal for golfing.

I know you aren't saying I've mentioned skiing being near Saidia, but thought would point out that I have said on this forum two or three times that there is no skiiing or major hills near Saidia. I have also provided links to the two existing ski centres (near Fez and Marakesh.)

On rentals, the way I see it there will be good rentals from June through to August. Other months won't be as good, but I don't expect better positioned properties to be empty for weeks on end. I expect those that invest in LJDF villas to be offered roughly 10% of purchase price as rental. (True figure being lower as we will have various expenses.)

Ofcourse, much of what's above is opinion.

Have a good weekend, I'm off for a swift one or ten.

That car run is not nice - and don't forget 160km in Morocco doesn't take 1 hour, or 2 - more like 4 (unless it's motorway, which it definitely isn't up there).

So what your saying is, 'nothing to do in Saidia, lets go for a 4 hour drive' ? - nice.




I am not aware of any flights from Oujda to Marrakech / Fes. So at the moment it's not very do-able. The drives would take around 5-7hours.

I'd have MUCH rather thought that if anything, it'd be the other way around. i.e. those in Marrakech, would want to go to Saidia to stay a couple of days (maybe) to see what the fuss is (you really do overrate the attraction of Saidia - rose-tints on are they !)

So Saidia, it seems has one attraction that you can name - Snorkelling (for a couple of wrecks - are you sure there are wrecks down there) ??

BTW, Ski resort is Oukaimden (spelling - I'm tired !) - been there, its okay/nice (near Marrakech). I'd say about 5hour drive from Saidia, maybe more (I don't have map nearby).

Have a good weekend - and I'd make it a swift ten if I were you

How far is it from Marrakesh? How long is the season?

I'm guessing, it's late I need to go home. From memory I'd say from Marrakech it's about 80km Took us about 1hr 20mins from Marrakech (again from memory).

As I'm not a skier (snow skiing that is), it's pretty basic from what I saw. I liked exploring in and around that area though.

Hi BigLog - it was nearer 10 and was feeling a bit delicte for a while. Anyway, here's my response to your comments above.

Royal Air Maroc (http://www.royalairmaroc.com/) fly daily flights from Oujda to Marakesh. They also fly to Fez 4 times a week. My hope is that budget airlines will start to operate internal flights in Morocco. I think this is quite likely if Saidia proves as popular as I think it will.

I agree with you about drive time from Saidia to Fez. From memory it was about 5 hours. That too will come down when the new motorway is built. Fez will still be a bit far for day trip in car, but is more manageable when it is part of a two or three day trip.

I don't doubt you have been to Saidia, but I suspect it was quite some time ago. When was it you visited / passed through? I suspect it wasn't this year. The coastal road is a new road. The Government had it constructed to reduce time to travel from some ferry ports (Mellila and Nador) to Saidia. We aren't talking about an unpleasant 4 hour drive. I imagine attractions will pop up along that road as savy folk spot the potential for income from those taking their holidays nearby.

I was tired last night, what I meant about flights were that 'I wasn't aware of flights from Oujda to Marrakech' - not that there weren't any.

I was 2 weeks in Saidia last August (2005).

That's 2 weeks more than Dogbox

Big Log

You state there is little / nothing to do in Saidia.


There are countless world class resorts with 'nothing to do', other than simply relax and unwind, but that doesnt stop them being popular. I loved Amanpulo in the Philippines yet another guest said there was nothing to do. Chilling with a good book, the sea, BBQs and watching nature is all I need.


There is plenty of room in the Saidia resort and lots of natural wonders if you know how to appreciate them. I would find a snake hunt immensly satisfying whereas I guess you would prefer to look at something Man made.

Even in my Menorca villa we spend hours looking for creepy crawlies, chilling - out, having BBQs, excercising and swimming - THATS ALL I WANT. It just so happens Saidia will have many restaurants as well which is a bonus.

Freinds stayed in Mauritius this year and didnt leave the development. It had only 1 golf course, it was chilly (East coast + winter), had only 1 restaurant etc but was still a nice holiday.


GOLF

Im not a golfer, but this weekend we visited our 3 freinds who all play golf. They tell me they do not get bored playing golf for 2 weeks EVEN WITH NO BEACH. At least Saidia has a beach and other facilities.


All in all Saidia will definitely appeal to those who just want to kick back and breath out the stress (most people I know). Culture vultures probably wont like it, they can visit the teeming tedious cities.

The following is just a cut-n-paste from Travel Website

----------------------------------------------------------
Saidia Excursions
Take the road southeast through the Béni-Snassen mountains to Morocco’s easternmost city, Oujda. Don't miss the breathtaking Zegzel gorges and the grottoes that punctuate their sheer cliffs. Most spectacular of these grottoes are the Camel, which takes its name from the camel-shaped stalagmite near the entrance, said to cure infertility, and the Pigeon Grotto, a famous and unique prehistoric site.
---------------------------------------------------------

Big Log, Do you agree with the above or is it just unreliable blurb from the travel company? Either way, the list of excusrions is not exactly extensive

I haven't stated that there is little to do in Saida - I've asked the question to you guys who seem to know it so well.

I'm pleased to hear that you enjoy snake hunting - I think you'll find no shortage of snakes 'round here !

You're wrong about me wanting to see something man-made (sheesh, you've been orgasmic about your zillion villa, 60gucci shop, 8hotel, 850berth marina for months - natural creation is it ?

Thanks for the insight into Saidia, you've obviously been there many times and keep going back.......




Hi Jibber,

I'd love to help, but don't feel I'm as qualified as Dogbox.

You're far better off asking him, he knows it much better than I ever will !

BigLog / Dogbox: I had understood that the snakes found in the wild are not poisonous. Is that your understanding too?

(I had considered climbing in the Atlas mountains and the wildlife I could expect to encounter didn't ring any alarm bells. I know Saidia isn't particularly close to the Atlas mountains, just assumed snakes found there would be found in lower land too.)

Sorry, I only live here.

You're better off asking Dogbox, I'm sure from the comfort of his armchair, his DVD will provide the answer.

Or, for a really impartial view, you could both try asking your agent

Come on BigLog, try being helpful. I asked you as you live there. I asked DogBox as sounds like he has done some research on what types of snake might be there.

Small non venemous snakes aren't really an issue. Cyprus is crawling with them owing to farmers selling their land to developers. The habitat of the snakes has been reduced and increasingly they are being spotted in built up areas.

Morocco is not being built up to the same extent. I know there is a lot of activity just now, but when you consider the proportion of Morocco's area being developed you realise it really is a drop in the ocean.

So I repeat. Are there any venemous snakes in the wild in Morocco?

There most definitely are as well as Scorpions, but none should concern anyone as long as you dont go looking for trouble.
I only mentioned Snakes as Im a nature nut and I like looking under rocks - carefuly!

THE PUFF ADDER:

Considered Africa's most dangerous Snake in view of it's being common, large, having potent venom and most of all it's willingness to bite!
Keep bite victims still and calm. Lie them down (stillness slows the venom spread) then apply a pressure bandage / tournequet tightly. Try and immobilise the limb with a splint. Get them to a Hospital. People can live for days from a Snake bite but the sooner treated the better so as to avoid Kidney damage etc etc etc.

Usually hisses before biting.


I was ORIGINALLY trying to get accross to those that say 'Sadia has nothing', that ones Mans nothing is another Mans paradise. I like comfortable resorts that allow one to indulge ones need for home comforts but at the same time are surrounded by wilderness. For me thats the ideal combination. As an examp[le I found Majorca depressing - much too built up and not at all magical.

Oh I've tried being helpful alright. But it seems you guys only want to hear what you want to hear. You'll accept what I have to say about 'snakes', but any realy sage advice about the town/country, you no-it-alls kick it into touch !

Seriously, look it up on Dogbox's DVD.

In any case, I thought you guys were hard-nosed investors who covered all the bases ?

BigLog. I don't think you have brought anything up that I didn't at least consider. Where I differ from you is in the assesment of the risks and rewards. Still happy to have any negatives you can think of put in the pot. Would much rather know about things I've missed than go on thinking my original assessment of risk vs reward was good.

Well I'm not going to bring up *all* that I know, so you can't say that.

I'm aware that you are taking a risk and that I'm not prepared to - if you pull it off, then good for you.

The stance I'm now taking is - who am I ?? I only live here. You guys obviously know what you are doing from the comfort of your armchairs so why should I care ?

As is often said, free advice is only worth what you paid for it.

Guess the value of free advice or experience depends on who it is coming from and what their motives may be. I'm sure most people reading forums know to take in all that is being said and then decide for themselves what they think is useful.

As for the armchair comment, I think at least one visit to the country of your investment is advisable. This is something I did, independently. (As I'm sure you are tired of hearing.) An exception to the rule is when someone with a good business head for these matters, someone you know and trust, takes the trip over and feeds back their findings to you. (I'm sure there are many many more out there that fall into this bracket, not just DogBox.)

I know that the most true insight into what Morocco could be like came from Lina (whose experiences where from Pakistan). Funnily she too was shot down as a neg-head.

I don't deny Dogbox his method of using a trusted friend with a good business brain - that's his choice.

Just fed up of him talking out his backside about a place he knows very little about.

Saidia is'nt even built yet so I doubt you know anything more than I.

In the end it really is so simple, but no doubt you still will critiscise me.

The simple deal is:

Spain, detatched 3 bed villa with own pool, 20 clubhouses, 20 restaurants, 3 golf courses, a modern huge marina and on a 7 km beach would set you back at least £500k if fact Spannish EAs quote me £1m + for on - beach and on - golf.

Saidia has all these features and a lot lot more including A CHOICE of rental agents on site and cost me £170k. At some point in the next 10 years I will almost guarantee that villa will be worth £400000+ even with the odd bomb going off.

What exactly are 'all these features and a LOT LOT MORE" ?? I'm interested since you've been there

But what I'm confused about is on the one hand you're saying it has all these features, and on the other you're saying it is'nt (sic) even built yet !

Make your mind up mate !

You know all the features, youre always telling me you have all the facts and are in the best position to give advice.


So what if ti is'nt built, your point is????????????
Ok they might all be ripping us off and not built the planned features, but there is no point my worrying about such things, its out of my control.

I could buy (as you imply) something already built, but then I will pay a higher price to rflect this extra security which of course is'nt the name of the game.

Anyway, lets end the debate. Please resume in late 2009. If you are right I will be kicking myself I didnt visit Morocco to find out these killer facts only you know about

BigLog. I'm not about to wade through posts on this forum and others, but I think Lina was buying in LJDF but decided against it due to lack of bank guarantee - just one risk too far.

I may have that wrong, just what I think was the case.

Yes soup Dragon I was due to purchase on LJDF. The Bank Gaurantee was a big factor of me pulling out but that was not the only reason . in the end i just could not get my head around the prices they where asking for a completly undeveopled country.This is when i started to make comparisons of the 2 countries that i know very well. i compared to England where you can also purchase a 2 bed apartment for the same price as they are commanding in Morroco and then i compared Morroco to pakistan as i believe the people and the culture are very similar and this is when the real alarm bells started to go off in my head.

Lina your judgement is fair enough and I respect your opinion although I would point out that any property comparisons have to be done on a like for like basis.

For example I could stay in a villa in Crete for £500 per week yet in the premier resort of 'Elounda villas' you are looking at £2000 per week for a 1 bed villa with no golf or beach.

Its often difficult comparing property but Im confident Saidia will offer an experience many people will value highly.

Good luck where ever you invest. BTW if you want low prices and a secure investment see www.ippglobal.net on Berlin - new appartments from 50k euros. Wages in Berlin are 4 x higher than Budapest yet prices similar...........

Erm, I've already asked you umpteen times what is the attraction of Saidia, so it is implied that you believe there is an attraction and I fail to see it. You then mention that it has 'all these features and a lot lot more' and again I ask you what they are. Now you are claiming that I know all the features

So you are implying that I was right all along ?? That there aren't any ??

For months you've been ramping on this site about Saida, and I've challenged your knowledge of the place, which you have purely from a friend's rose-tinted DVD and an Agent's spiel.

E.g. I know nothing about the city of Wolves (apart from I believe it's not a nice town - I may be wrong but that's what I believe, I drove once through it at night). Now, suppose, from Morocco, I'm a Moroccan and I want to invest in the UK, in Wolves, and all i'd seen was a dvd and a Selling Agent's opinion ??

See where I'm coming from ??

BTW, I *never* said only I have these killer facts, come over here, stay a while and maybe you'll spot things that were never captured on the DVD.

If you're really lucky I'll show you around

How come Lina quoted (I think) 120,000euro for appartment in Saida and you are saying you can get 50k appartments in Berlin ??

Berlin 50k or Saidia 120k ?? Tricky choice that ??

Is it because in Berlin they don't have 60gucci shops, 8 hotels, 3 golf courses, tea spoons included ?

Am I the only one getting bored with the Dogbox vs Big Log snipefest? Both of you have made your point(s) & neither of you will alter the other's view one whit....so why keep repeating the same thing ad nauseum?
Dogbox ...I wish you luck in Saida, you have faith in that investment & your own commercial ability & are willing to take a risk..higher than I would with the old "armchair philosophy" in this new market..but that's entirely your affair.

Big Log, "flipping" is a valid exit strategy for any property investor, you may personally not like it but it is a critical factor in encouraging inward investment...you seem cross that you live there and noone is listening to your very valid concerns. May I suggest that you consider putting all your local expertise to good use rather than banging your head against a brick wall on this (& other threads?)....a dedicated web service, book or a consulting service perhaps, for all these unwary investors?
Just a thought.

[/quote]

100% in agreement with you (and I'm the one whose in it !)

Though, I actually think Dogbox is bricking it deep down.

This is another example of your gross ignorance.

The cheap apartments you mentioned in Berlin are located in the heart of the Neo-Nazi area, where it is very unsafe to go out after 10pm.

Afterall I ONLY VISITED AND PURCHASED THERE LAST YEAR, but you know best. It was a nice leafy safe area in East Berlin called Kaulsdorf.

I felt immensely more safe in Berlin than in London.

And where are you investing, perhaps I will realise what a poor investor I have been once you enlighten me with your advice

Log Ive listed em time and time again on this and my original threads. If you dont know what they are I give - up, you win.

Like you say Ive got it all wrong and I dont understand relative value.

BTW have you even troubled yourself to visit the developers website?

http://www.lejardindefleur.com

I lived in Berlin 2 years so I guess I know it much better than you do.

Kaulsdorf is also a not so good area. Anyway, people from East Berlin are moving to Charlottenburg and Zellendorf or to West Germany. Only immigrants are now interested in living in the East, except in nicer areas of Prenzlaurberg.

Jeez, wish you guys would stop da cat fight. I bought a beachfront penthouse in Marina Smir not that far from Saida for 257k euros (plus 15k for furniture in 18 months) and also a berth there for 37k euros. I'm very very happy with it and my biggest problem is trying to find another regoin as exciting as Morocco. I'm convinces that the rental return will be 10% or better and that I will see huge capital appreciation over the next few years. Ryanair have anounced several new routes ointo Morocco and I figure they know what they are doing. Also, has anybody read this week's Newsweek article on Morocco .... WOW .... they are as bullish as I am about the place!

Any chance you could give us the text here? Ive been to a Newsweek website (not sure if this is the publication?) but it asks me to subscribe so I couldnt view anything.

Cheers

Dogbox

Try this link. It seems a very well balanced article that will shed more light than some of the more polarised views on here. Overall it's positive, & they even refer to your villa!

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/15081798/site/newsweek/

regards
WR