It seems the shameless rampers have either gone pop or have moved on to screw someone else.

I would be interested in hearing from those that have fallen for the 'Moroccan dream' - when will your holiday home be ready to rent/occupy - who will rent it from you and how much will they pay?

Whats the resale market like and will you ever see any of your money again?

If it were I who had taken a speculative punt on Morocco I would be felling pretty glum right now, so come on guys spill your guts.

I apologize for feeding the troll dogbox such that he had the possibility to repeat 1000 times his stupid story about Saidia.

I was naive, I should have ignored this thread as it was obvious that people like dogbox were just trying to hook some naive "investors".

Anyway, I am still curious to go visit the area when/if there is any airline flying to the vicinity.

I am predicting the 60 million Frenchmen and 80 million or so Germans making up a significant % of rental numbers in new Moroccan developments over the coming years, probally something like 50-75%.

In case you did not realise the French have been holidaying in numbers there for many years. Agadir is already a popular place with Germans, they also go to Turkey in large numbers. The Germans are very prudent savers who are not up to their ears in debt.

Whisper it...but the world does not revolve around the current doom and gloom in the UK economy / housing market / fuel costs, it will not stop millions of well off people across Europe, and further, who will be looking at holidaying at developments with many facilities close by, which they are trying to achieve in Morocco.



Re-sale market ?????? It hasn't even been completed yet !! The serious investors in Morocco I have spoken to are all looking at a 5-10 year time period.

The 'SHAMELESS' property ramping that has been the UK house market for about 5 years solid now. Every TV channel, newspaper, radio station, celebrity, non-celebrity has put in their two pence worth to maintain the bubble. Don't get confused that one or two posters on a few Moroccan forums is is the same thing. I am surprised that people take the time to post negative comments about Morocco if they have not invested themselves.


The short flight distance (2hrs from central Europe) and eventual expansion of routes to Oujda airport should make the journey there very simple. I know people with holiday homes in Turkey, with a 4hr+ flight followed by 3hr coach journey. The lack of direct flights (from the UK) to Oujda is quite obvious due to the delays. However, direct flights to Oujda from Belgium, Holland and France are possible, probally due to the large number of Moroccan ex-pats living in these countries. The Eurostar to Belgium/France followed by a flight would seem a relatively painless way of getting there at present. I am confident that when building work nears completion we will see direct flights for people based in the UK.

Morning, I am an investor. My initial reasons for buying are unchanged. It is a ten year+ investment. I have little sympathy for any people who were looking to flip. I post rarely now, whats the point there in nothing left too say. In two years time we can look back and see where we all stand, at least by then the majority of the development will be done.

I would echo the comments of another poster. Many posts on here are by those myopic types who cannot see outside the UK. Get with it people, our little island is no longer a powerhouse economy. Our position is not replicated globally.

So to all the bears. Save your smug victory dances, there is a long way still to go.

We all have a tendency to think the good times will go on forever and then when they turn bad we think the world will end.

I agree with the comment that we will only know how good a recent Moroccan property investment really is in a number of years time.

It is often commented that we (the UK people) are so small-minded to think that if we are feeling the pinch then the rest of the world is. Obviously, one doesn't follow from the other although there is some connection.

What I would say is, yes, 75% of the holidaymakers may end up being French or German but what also matters (to investors) is who has been buying the properties and who will be the secondary buyers? I may be mistaken but I feel that the original marketing of properties has been aimed at UK/Irish investors and that this marketing took place quite successfully when our economy was good, we all felt wealthy and credit was easy. This would have been reflected in the prices we paid.

If the secondary market is also to be UK/Irish buyers then it will be interesting to see how we feel in two years time about investing in Morocco.

I could be wrong in my assumptions about the original buyers - please put me right someone.

Once up and running, the resorts will have a global (or certainly European) appeal and the secondary market buyers will simply be from whoever at the time has the best economy, feels the most wealthy and has the easiest credit. Further, the buyers will be a very different bunch of people too as they will be buying real properties with real rentals and real holiday potential, rather than artist impressions and a range of projections.

I could now say that I think the resale prices will be lower in a few years time but to what extent would I be tripping myself up on my opening sentence?

Agree totally with Euroscooby. Most of us bought a holiday home not a sure-fire investment. Delays are disappointing, but it doesn't alter the quality of the finished product. Building something like Mediterranea Saidia from scratch is a huge undertaking. It was obviously going to take years. What's new? Why are the doomsayers still posting? Get a life!!!

Check out the thread title!! "My best ever investment".


Didn't happen, and would have been impossible at the time of posting. The tunnel is still pie in the sky.

Didn't happen.

Won't happen.

Two years on, hasn't happened.

Completely unrealistic. Was never going to happen.

Isn't going to happen.

The OP's (a mortgage broker) best ever investment has turned out to be nothing more than a speculative punt, and a poor one at that. For those other "investors" who were dumb enough to swallow the same BS, bad luck. Caveat emptor.

And for those who have bought into Saida who believe that they are the only ones entitled to comment on this thread, WAKE UP!!! This is a public forum and everyone is entitled to an opinion, especially if they can see through the tailend ramping of the property bubble. You're welome to post on the main forum if you are a FTB or if you own a house, so why not here?

Me, I'm going to Spain for my holiday.

Of course there are no flights and nothing has happened etc there's nothing much there. it's a building site in its early stages. What's difficult to understand about that? Why keep posting if you know nothing about the place?

FWS, I do not agree that most people bought a holiday home rather than an investment. Surely an off-plan investment in Saidia has to qualify as a high risk investment rather than a holiday home purchase just yet. I think you are using the holiday home argument to stop the posters with opposite opinions to you. Even if you are right, so what. Most people buy their main home to live in rather than as an investment but this website is dominated by thousands of posts about how far UK homes will drop in value. This section has no right to be any different. If your purchase is not an investment then dont let it bother you so much. After all, most people have no idea about Saidia and what is really happening there. I visited 2 years ago and was completely blown away by it but that is a long time ago and I have no real sense of progress sense then. I enjoy reading updates from people who have been since and I want to take a holiday there in a year or two. I would say that I am surprised about the LJDF website going into hibernation for quite some time and dont understand why they would do that as communication and progress updates are so important to investors as Saidia is a long way away and not yet practical to visit personally. Can any agents explain this? Dogbox?

Fws. I disagree with comments about most buyers not buying for investment. I’d say most posters on here bought as an investment with the intention of holidaying there for 2 or 3 weeks a year. Of course, for every buyer that has posted on this thread there are many more that don’t know about the site and I’m assuming they will have similar reasons for buying.

Mutley. I can see you have been very selective with your quotes above. I remember each and every one of the quotes and think I responded to most of them at the time to say they were optimistic. Nobody should believe everything they read. I'm sure you would agree that people need to do your their own due diligence and apply a little common sense before drawing conclusions. Tunnel by 2008 were never on. Parties involved with possible tunnel were not talking about 2008 as a delivery date when that post was made.

Sean. As usual I agree with most of what you say, but fail to see logic in comment beneath.

Are you saying that we should be equally negative about foreign property as posters on the main board are about UK house prices? I cann't see the logic in that and am sure you would concede that the typical person posting in the Overseas section is very different to those that focus on the main board.

Soup, I am just saying dont be so sensitive. For most people, the main (if not only) decent investment they will ever make is in their home and many of them are openly being negative about the future prices of their homes on this site. Why does posting in the "Overseas property investment" section give you a right to escape the opposite so-called negative opinion? I have investment properties in the UK and France which I am concerned about and I don't think that saying so on here will make that any worse. For example, I reckon my flat in North London will fall by about £50k this year and I overpaid by about €100k on a property in Nimes about 18 months ago. In fact, I decided not to move job recently because I want to sort out my overall LTV and feel a bit more secure first. For me at the moment, its a case of staying on the log. I go to Ireland a lot and last year they bored me senseless about the property market but now when I ask they either dont hear me or answer in whispers. They are too scared to talk about it. Going back to topic, I genuinely believe that the investors in Saidia are terrified of posting negative stuff on here and, if true, it says a lot about the fragilty of the whole thing in the first place. As an investor, I dont expect you to agree.

Sean. I can see what you are saying about your own properties and how you are relating recent experiences in Ireland to overseas markets (Saidia in this instance.) I can also see that some investors in Saidia may be wary of posting negatively.



Afraid I still don’t understand your comments regarding posters on main board and overseas board. I’ve been negative about UK market for a while and downsized a little early (2005/2006.) Most of the posters on the main board have been predicting substantial falls in house prices for years. They were wrong, or at least didn’t realise how much prises would rise before the correction would take place. (Time will tell if correction is anything like they are saying.) Posting on the overseas forum doesn’t allow me to escape the negative opinions on where UK house prices are going (I think they will go further south too.) I do however see that not all countries will be hit either by UK’s slump or the Global Credit Crunch. I therefore consider myself more optimistic about the potential of my investments than those that post on the main board. I may be well wide of the mark, but I think most of the Overseas posters that show knowledge and intelligence in their posts are more optimistic about their overseas investments than those that focus on the main board are of their (UK) investments.

Would I invest in Saidia if I could rewind to 2006 with the knowledge I have now? I’d invest in funds and syndicates rather than off-plan property. Would also have a sneaky wager on teams competing in FA & Scottish Cup finals.

Sean, hadn’t realised you had bought in Nimes. Was it a leaseback / holiday property or something to rent to the locals?

I’ve only passed round the outskirts of Nimes, but realise it has a lot of cracking old Roman buildings and the beach is in striking distance (by car.)

Soup, I'm embarrassed to say that the Nimes property is one of two leasebacks I've bought. I find it irritating enough managing an ever-decreasing number of properties in the UK and just decided to go for the easy option. I was completely aware that I was being lazy at the time and paying a premium for the laziness. In some ways, it has worked out OK. I must also admit that I've done a bit of a Dogbox on the investment (ie bought without seeing the site) although I've been to Nimes and things are progressing well. It will be let to students and I hope to convert its use at the end of the term and sell to locals so I bought a parking space too.

Re the posting on Saidia thing, I'm not sure what you don't understand so am not sure how to say it differently. Here's another try. When sales were going well, there was a great forum with a wide range of opinions. Now that things are not as positive as before, rightly or wrongly, I get a sense that investors feel it is not right for non-investors to say so. I could be misreading this and am happy to be corrected. Meanwhile, over on the main board, anything goes!

As one who's commented on this issue, I'm not saying it's not right for non-investors to say negative things. What I was saying was that it's an absolute nonsense to say things about flights not happening, rents not being achieved, stars not moving in etc. The place isn't built so how can such factors be seen as not happening? What I am condemning is the people who see Saidia as a failure because this or that "hasn't happened". Yes, orices haven't shot up but that's the only 'failure' so far - it doesn't mean that Saidia itself is a failure which is what the gloaters seem to be saying. It isn't built - nothing is open much. No hotels, no shops, no restaurants = no flights etc

"it doesn't mean that Saidia itself is a failure which is what the gloaters seem to be saying. It isn't built - nothing is open much. "

It is not a failure (yet) and it might be a ncie resort.

BUt was a bad investment in 2006. There is no capital gain and it won't be for some time. No capital gain+ no rental income = loss of interest rates for at least 4 years i.e. about 25%.
Who likes losing 25% of an investment?

Sean, you’ll be relieved to hear I understand you this time!

On leaseback, at least it should prove relatively hands free. Have you checked that you will definitely be able to sell on to locals at end of initial lease? I’ve read on one of the forums that no matter what your contract / lease agreements say, the management company has the right to keep renewing the lease for your property. I didn’t perform my own due diligence when I read that (had ruled out leasebacks) and it may not be true ….. just want to flag it in case it is true and you weren’t aware of it. (Think I read it on TotallyProperty forum.)

Soup, thanks for the warning. I signed the contracts some time ago and was pretty sure I could sell on at the end and that it was at my choice. Having said that, the amount of paperwork was huge and all in French so I would not be surprised by anything in 11 years time. Probably saying too much here about it as it is a Morocco thread.

Rondy, I think you sum up the investment situation well. I too think and hope that the resort will be great. Its just taking longer than expected and the global economy hasn't helped.

German tourists in Morocco made up only 4% of total tourist numbers in 2006, you are talking bullsh*t!!! And yes I am not a property investor, but I do like to see you suffer!

Apologies for those who have read this before but I feel I yet again have to state that the moroccan dream is not all about Saida!!
I fell for the moroccan dream in 2006 ...only backed off offplan as I wasn't convinced by the developer (this was Tanjah Beach not Saida). However loved the area (Asilah). We bought a medina house on the grounds that there were going to be so many planned developments on the atlantic coast - all apparently 5 star, golf, de luxe blah blah...with the medina we felt there was a limited supply of units (only 500 houses within the walls) and we had the opportunity to have a really original house.

We renovated it last year & are now renting this year. We were advised earlier this year that due to the renovation (which cost 15% of the purchase price) & the increase in the euro/pound exchange rate, that the value had doubled. (granted we won;t know that for sure until we decide to sell, which we don;t plan on doing anytime soon, but it's nice to know there is a cushion in these uncertain times). We are not expecting 15-20% increases in the future as prices appear to have stabilised in the area for the moment..though I understand Marrakesh is still on the rise. Again we always viewed this as a 10yr investment minimum.

We are renting this year & the return is currently coming in at 7.4% (against the purchase cost + renovation costs)although the season seems limited to July & Aug with long weekends in April/May & Xmas....which we had always thought would be the case. Our customer base is Spanish for the long weekends & a mix of Spanish & French in JUly/Aug.

Many off plan developments that were promoted in 2006 have experienced difficulties getting planning permissions through - understandable given the infancy of the market. However other posters have stated that the moroccan tourist market is far from dependent on the english/irish market & that is correct - however whether the french will be attracted to the types of development being promoted is up for debate.

We prefer the degree of control & faster returns that a renovation project can bring when targetted at an established market rather than the uncertainty of off plan & I am very thankful that we didn;t get seduced into offplan and then flipping which would be tad scary now. However, t remains to be seen whether our moroccan venture will be "the best investment we have ever made"- but so far it has certainly been a very enjoyable one even though it has been bloody hard work!!

There...guts spilt to your satisfaction I hope!

Esmerelda, sounds like you did all the right things (such as research, hard work and taking control) and have every chance of making a success of it over the intended timeline. Well done. That's the sort of thing I used to do in the UK when I had the time and when the rental numbers actually made sense. Just as an example, I would always put dummy adverts in Loot and see if the phone rang at the right rental price before I'd even exchanged contracts. In doing so, I made my last UK residential purchase about 7 years ago because it no longer made sense to buy. Going back to Morocco, most of us can't put the time in to renovate our own overseas properties and most of us dont do our research as well as you.

I also agree completely that Morocco does not equal Saidia (or any other resort) and would add another comment to that - I work in the pricing of "risk" and if you are talking about property development to insurers the last word they will want to hear is "resort". Your experience when compared with the difficulties being experienced at Saidia is a good example of why that is.

That's interesting what you said about resorts...hadn't thought of that one. Re the renovation....lest you think we were on site all the time - er...no...I have a full time job over here as does my husband. In total I spent 21 days on site which was divided between checking the work out & making all those decisions that builders need if they are not going to do something horrific and running around like a blue a**ed fly sourcing second hand doors etc. The key is project management & plans (&...LISTS!!!!) So it CAN be done although I take your point that it isn;t for everone but I have never lost a wink of sleep since we bought the place whereas I was so frustrated at the lack of progress/information with the offplan that it was really affecting me....there is one downside....now I am having difficulty enjoying a nice beach holiday as I keep thinking I should be running about with a list in my hand!!!!

Some positive news for the thread as Radisson arrive.

Have to think that this will help underpin the development.

http://www.lejardindefleur.com/site/news/20070011.html


Le Jardin de Fleur announces Radisson Resort & Spa Saïdia

Radisson Hotels & Resorts, part of the Rezidor Hotel Group, with over 330 hotels in operation and under development with more than 68,000 rooms in 53 countries, has selected the beautiful new destination of Saïdia for its first entry into the Moroccan market.

In a joint partnership with Property Logic, the developer of Le Jardin de Fleur Resorts Morocco, the Radisson Resort & Spa Saïdia will manage 384 rooms and 97 villas, scheduled to complete in 2010. “With this signing we are adding a new and emerging country to our pipeline and are now present in 53 countries across EMEA”, comments Kurt Ritter, President & CEO of Rezidor. “In the Middle East and Africa we now have 47 hotels with almost 11,500 rooms in operation and under development – a clear sign for our commitment to this region.”

Located along six kilometers of idyllic beaches on the north-east Mediterranean coast of Morocco, Radisson Resort & Spa Saïdia will comprise of pool villas and residences (2 to 3 bedrooms) and luxury sea view suites (1 to 2 bedrooms). In addition, the Radisson resort will offer collectively 4 restaurants, bars, a 1,500 m² Moroccan themed spa and thalasso centre, 5 outdoor pools, 1 indoor pool, 2 fitness centres, a kid’s club, shops, tennis courts, an amphitheatre, a beach club and 1,500 square metres of meeting and conference facilities - making it an ideal year-round destination ideal for business and leisure travellers.

Investment opportunities are currently on offer in the Radisson Resort & Spa under leaseback agreements managed by Le Jardin de Fleur. Owners benefit from generous usage of the resort in addition to peace of mind as their property works hard for them in generating excellent return on investment through annual rental income and capital appreciation.

Le Jardin de Fleur is the brand name behind the eleven most luxurious developments within the Mediterrania-Saïdia project - the first of six government backed coastal resorts that form part of the Moroccan Government’s Plan Azur tourism strategy to bring 10 million annual visitors to the country by 2010. The 7 million m² master plan will feature a 6 km beach promenade, a 1000 berth marina, three 18 hole golf courses and numerous restaurants, shops and exclusive beach clubs.

It is expected that Le Jardin de Fleur will announce further hotel partnerships for its other resorts within Saïdia over the coming months.

“Our objective is to provide a unique and pleasurable experience to owners and guests and our strategy is based on selecting only the best hotel partners to provide the high levels of service and quality that these resorts demand. Radisson, with its international experience and reputation for quality, shares our vision to create a world class tourism destination in Saïdia,” said Sean Cusack, Managing Director of Le Jardin de Fleur Resorts.

Significant investment has been injected into the development of the infrastructure, roads and surroundings of Saïdia, in addition to substantial expansion of nearby Oujda International Airport (40 km) which is expected to provide capacity for numerous chartered and scheduled airline routes over the next two years. Nearby tourist attractions include the Figuig desert oasis and the imperial city of Fez, while Saïdia offers a 17th century Kasbah, traditional Moroccan restaurants and annual summer music festival.

Whoops sorry about that.

What has happened to Dogbox? I would have expected him to have something to say about Radisson taking over RT7 & La Plage?

Dogbox has left the building, I repeat Dogbox has left the building. Here is his starter on this thread.







As some of u know I recently bought in Berlin.
My next target is Morocco, here's why:

* No income Tax on the rent (double Taxation agreement applies so no UK Tax will apply) - note I am only looking at high quality property within a low rise, low density mega resort (classy though) with 3 18 hole golf courses, hospital, equestrian centre, polo pitch, water parks, gucci and other leading retailers on sight, 800 berth marina, and my property has a 60 year mooring berth (very rare) all fully managed including the rent side, forested green area, full security, restaurants, cinemas, Olympic pools, bowling alley, shopping centre - all very tastefuly done in Moroccon style by UK and Spanish builders - so renting will be easy).

*Capital Gains Taxed above £60k @ 20% in first 5 years. Between 5 - 10 years its 10%. After 10 years its 0.

*The King has announced 'plan Azur', which aims to have Morocco become a premier destination by 2010.

*Huge developments - Dubai style are underway backed by none other than Emaar Properties

*An 8km tunnel will link Gibralter to Tangiers by 2008

*The 'stars' are moving in. The Beckhams, Jude Law and Brad Pitt have recently bought - this is important, it sets the trends.

*An 'open skies' agreement has been signed and the Government guarantee world class airport upgrades by 2010.

*Ryan Air have announced flights to beginn by this summer

*White sand, huge beaches so much more attractive than the black sand Canary Islands and over 1 hour clser.

*'Exotic, yet close'

*Huge infrastructure improvements underway. The Americans are investing billions in new ports.

*Its just a hop from Spain BUT PRICES UP TO 10 X LOWER

*Im buying off - plan yet only part with 40%. The balance in 2009, yet I can sell on at any point. So my 40% leveredges me into 100% exposure to the market

Once the public begin holidaying here 'en mass' the stampede will begin. IT WILL HAPPEN, JUST LIKE MEXICO HAS (and Mexico is much farther away).

Spain is yesterdays news and Morocco is almost as close.

I think Im about to sign up for a villa - www.lejardindefleur.com (more MEW Im afraid). Within the most prestigious development - Saidia. £180k right on an 18 hole Golf course (3 to choose), marina and u get 60 year mooring rights for £10k!!!!!!!
Olympic pools, gated community, cinema, polo, equestrian centre, on the beach(6 km white sand), backed by snow capped mountains, forested area, plentiful water from mountains, on site Swiss rental company.
Villa has own pool. Fully serviced. Free membership to the club house. £180K!!!!! Totally safe gated development, all low rise, hospital on site.
Gucci and many others already purchased the shops surrounding the Marina - I wonder why?
The same at La Manga in Spain would be £1m +.

Rent for £4000 per week or more once site becomes well known. £60 per month maintenance charge includes pool maintenance and gardener. I think it will rent all year given the Golf and huge variety of quality facilities and year round climate. But even if it only rents for say 35 weeks and even if I only get say £1500 per week (which wont happen), the yield is still exceptionally high.

The bit I really like is only having to part with 40% for 3 years. Ok no yield on the 40% so I loose say £3600 pa interest, but I genuinely expect the value to more than double over 3 years. I look at property all over the world and have found nothing of this quality for the price this close to home. Places such as Bulgaria are way less important given the short season and lack of feel good sun factor.

Villas come fully furnished right down to tea spoons.

Dogbollox has been repo'd -

The bailiffs broke down the door , seeing a box on the lounge floor mark DOG they opened slowly, only to find...................
[Image Removed By Moderator]

You saddos!

Why is that fws?

Is it because I am repeating dogbox's over enthusiastic ramblings? or do you think I am just a twatttt. I hope it's the latter because I'm right about dogbox.

Listen, the Saidia resort will be nice, but so will a lot of the other Moroccan resorts.

Definitely the latter - except I would never use foul language like that!

As in other countries it can be a bit of a nightmare rennovating and doing up your property and having it ready to rent out. However Morocco is politically stable and the King is very powerful there. He is committed to social and economic reforms which in time will open up the country to the wider world. The only downside is how long will this take and will they be effective to attract more investment.
http://www.hiday.net/news.html?newsid=251

I think I failed to make my point.
RENOVATION
We had a GREAT experience on the renovation project. This was down to a wonderful crew, detailed project plan & regular scheduled visits to check progress. In fact, we liked it so much.....we are going to do it again (but I need a bit of time off this year to consolidate). No nightmares at all!
RENTAL MARKET
Morocco already has an established market...French have been there years! Spanish tend to come over for long weekends & the main holidays. PLus expat Moroccans gohome to in huge numbers each year.
Whther they would appreciate someof the newer off plan offerings is sunject to debate.

Thank you fws for your prompt reply.

Saidia is not a bad long term investment, but there are better off plan investments in Morocco.

Thanks for the response esmarelda (are you the ugly one or the pretty one in the story I can't remember).

From your account it would appear you've spent your money wisely - Purchasing in an established settlement with historic attractions in an area in which you enjoyed spending time is a sensible use of surplus capital.

My grippe is with those that promote the leveraged speculation on offplan developments in a market bloated by loose money - some less enlightened visitors might fall for the delusive ramblings of the snake oil salesmen that have fueled this thread.

Anyway, want to do a holiday home swap? A July week on the north coast of Brittany for an October week in Morocco

Ha...the pretty one...natch!!! & thanks for the kind words...
Mmm.... "snakeoil salesman" ...that is JUST what it was like when we went over to Morocco end of 2006...and you know all those Costa Cowboys? Well guess where a lot of them were selling??
Re the home swap...I would love to do that but my husband loathes France!! (Don't ask!!)

Martinsa-Fadesa (formerly Fadesa) board has just called in the administrators, unable to meet their debt payments. I have not found links in English with the breaking news.

AFAIK they are the main contractor in Med Saidia and are directly in charge of building part of the development. What now for Med Saidia?

None of us have a crystal ball to say what will happen, but if Fadesa did become bankrupt then it is likely its assets will be sold on. I imagine it would make sense for Adoha to purchase Fadesa’s remaining stake in Saidia (if they have means to do so and price is right.) But that’s a lot of ifs, we’ll need to see how things pan out.

LOL - Disaster as Saidia dream turns to nightmare.

Who would have believed it.....erm....well everybody apart from those who invested. Dogbox is in Morocco now, he owns 6 of these babies, he expected to flip them to unexpecting people on this forum but now bankruptcy looms.

For me the danger lights flashed as soon as I started reading the constant sales gibberish and lies on this forum. It still continues now on MSE, this snippet made me laugh out loudest:



Dated 16th July 2008 and all lies. What is that smell...a mixture of desperation and bullsheet.



Just ignore the mud and pylons. It will be mega, honestly...please buy into this...we just need a few more suckers to be able to afford the roads.



All we need is the boats



As well as Tony Blair, George Bush, Brad Pitt, George Clooney, Joan Collins, Elton John, Tiger Woods...Margaret Thatcher....erm Amy Winehouse


Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but who in their right mind will buy the assets off of Fadesa? With nothing selling, construction costs soaring, money in short supply...etc.

Managed to post response beneath twice - just deleting this one.

Einstein71. Nobody investing in Saidia would pretend that it is close to being a completed resort. So yes, it still resembles a building site and the marina is empty.

You say the danger lights started flashing the minute you started reading the sales gibberish. There are things that have been said on here that have turned out to be incorrect or pie in the sky. However, those remarks were picked up on and responded to by Saidia investors.

I note that you have recently joined the forum and therefore have only offered your views post Martina-Fadesa’s troubles becoming public. That’s probably a very different perspective from that you would have had if you considered Saidia 2 years ago.

On Fadesa’s stock / stake in Saidia: It is likely that Fadesa’s stake in Saidia (and other Moroccan developments) will be bought out at a low price as they aren’t in a strong negotiating position.

Time will tell if Saidia makes a good investment or not, but I’ll leave you with one final thought. Do you think that those that have invested in Saidia would rather Martinsa-Fadesa continued as master developers, cutting corners as they go, or would we prefer for them to be bought out by an organisation on a more sound financial footing?

Did he really buy 6?

What do people think - will the prices return to their original level e.g. £186k for a hibiscus villa with pool.

I'm once more looking into the market for a villa, close to the UK and warm beach - so South Spain/morocco seems the catchment area.

I thought Dogbox only had one unit in Saidia?

I have not had the time or inclination to post on here before, but I have finished work early and Mrs Danny and little ones have gone camping for a few days so a little time to kill.

Some muppets on here continually take the pi** out of dogbox whose biggest crime as far as I can see is being too enthusiastic and having far too much time on his hands. As I understand he has bought one Hibiscus Villa on VVT8. As from two weeks ago there were a handful left ranging in price from £243,000 to £330,000 inclusive of VAT. Regarding ' keeping their value' as the resort starts to take shape as it is now, these prices will only go up. Dogbox has probably made a nice little profit already.

I'm not doing the whole pitch but, direct flights - next year, hotels complete - next year, restaurants, shops etc, the whole Moroccan experience, this resort much to some posters dismay will, in time, be a hugh success.

Many, like me took a calculated punt in investing in Sadia. I visited 18 mths ago and became convinced that this is a 7- 10 year investment. There have been delays, as in any project like this - but the build now is cracking on.

I am sure that the Fadesa problem will be sorted. The resort will probably be finished nearer 2011/12 not 2010.

Someone asked about investing in a Villa in Saidia. I am absolutly no expert but if you are serious you should definitely visit the site and get a feel for it.

Finally to you doom-mongers, of course people can post personal views and all that, but make sure you come back when Sadia is alive and kicking and slag it off then. In the meantime in your sad little worlds you can only hope and pray that it is not successful because you have not had the foresight or ba**s to go for it yourselves.

OH BRAVO Danny! Well said!
What I find so peculiar is that the gloaters, doommongers and naysayers never seem to post anything about what THEY do apart from make snide remarks about other people's investments!! (& I make an honorable exception of catara who i did challenge sometime ago and who responded magnificently!)
maybe you guys .......don't .........actually (perish the thought!!!)....do anything..........except .........sit on this forum??????
Or maybe....it's a kind of reverse property porn thing you've got going on?

None of you have any idea about the totality of anyone else's investments so how can you launch such vitriol sometimes is beyond me. -yes I would agree that saida is a bit of a punt for someone sole nestegg, but it is quite reasonable for a lifestyle investor OR someone who is looking at a long play. & NO I have not personally invested in this development because I don;t go for off plan...(personal choice that's all).

Also - if you don't rate dogbox....how come so many of you are speculating about what he is up to? Why do you care?
Personally I wouldn;t blame him if he has left the building after the flaming some of you have given him & for no good reason...and please don;t give me the "freedom of speech/personal expression" thang...I am all for informed constructive criticism but some of these comments have been infantile....

Well I have a real issue with Dogbox and that is he has continually knocked other resorts other than Saidia without knowing anything about them. This has been my problem with him all along and I have alway said this AND I have always said Saidia will be ok, but there are better investments in Morocco.

(Its just for the record you know)

NURSE !!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am an owner of two apartments on RT-7. I could do without the credit crunch affecting confidence but as its a part of the euroscooby long term pension plan I am very relaxed. My resaons for buying are unchanged and am excited about the ongoing development.

I have posted on numerous occassions on this thread and my position has always been clear.

Recently I have said nothing, all the arguments and discussions have been done and done again!

Whilst I have not always agreed with Jesus and Catara et al there was an element of intellectual debate.

When some 'newbie jonny come lately' like Einstein comes along rehasing all the old lines and gloating like he is the first man to arrive on the thread I end up feeling a little sad at the capacity of weak individuals to jump on other people's 'perceived' misery.

One feels that much sadder about the human condition.

Hey Ho

Without completely derailling this thread,

"What do people think - will the prices return to their original level e.g. £186k for a hibiscus villa with pool.

I'm once more looking into the market for a villa, close to the UK and warm beach - so South Spain/morocco seems the catchment area."

Any advice on where should I be looking?

Gratefully appreciated.

has anybody any more info on lixus palms a new resort just released through siroco sounds interesting

Hi, just been reading through everyone's posts and there seems to be animated discussion as to which areas of Morocco are the premier investment location. I'm married to a Moroccan (don't do it!) and when I'm not being run ragged by her indoors and the kids I spend my time buying and selling property and also brokering it to clients from the UK. My experience so far has been that there is no place in Morocco like Marrakech, both for capital appreciation and rental returns.

Unlike many people I have actually travelled to Saidia to see what the fuss is about and my own educated opinion is that it is much ado about nothing. Apart from being little more than a Costa del Casbah, the resort will take a minimum 5 years to take off. That's OK for those who are looking for long-term investments or a retirement home, but not for people wanting to turn their money around more quickly.

Having said that, at present there seems to have been a slowdown in the luxury villa sector of Marrakech properties. Prices have stabilised owing to the glut of developments in and around the city, and in some cases they have even come down by between 5-10%. I would surmise that this picture is true for the whole country. In any case August generally sees a slowdown in the market since a lot of folk are on holiday.

I prefer to buy cheaper more affordable properties in Marrakech pitched at local, mainly first-time, buyers where the capital appreciation on your investment can be 100% in one year, and where resale potential is far better. I have shied away from the big coastal developments because of the large capital outlay involved relative to timescale of expected returns. On top of that 99% of no-frills airlines flying in from Europe are destined for Marrakech and nowhere else.

A final word of caution: making quick money is hardly an option for foreigners investing in Morocco unless you plan to spend it here, since all profits have to be repatriated through the Office for Change, a process which is tedious and which will only change in 2010 when the Moroccan government has committed to lifting exchange restrictions on the dirham.

If anyone wants to know more on this topic or wants to hear about current opportunities please fell free to call me, Faisal, on 07509 224722 (UK mobile).

Let's be franck...

The Moroccan market has been driven mainly by speculation - something quite similar to the Thailand housing bubble that saw a depreciation of 80% of its value from 1996 to 2000 -

Speculators were mainly French, English and Spanish.

The Spanish speculators are deserting the market as some are about be in negative equity due to the late investment in Spain, some cannot sell current holding either in Spain or Morocco putting them in the brink of defaulting in the month to come...unless spanish price pick up again and seller comes back... with 85% of spanish household owning a flat and stock at level not seen in human history (over 1 million flat available and not sold) ... how don't see how that happen
->i see massive opportunitty for the wise investors that has had patience over the spanish market , price could wuite easely by divided by 2 or 3 in the next 5 years in key locations.

The English speculator have seen a plunge fro +10% to -10% over a year in UK property price. According to analyst - or just ask the common people on the ground - price will fall further another 20% that will put pressure on the english banking system and will push further down housing price.
->i see price 50% down from their peak in the next 5 years and no need to travel through cheap and dangerous flight.

The French speculators are vanishing since the economy is deteriorating fast , and is about to enter a recession. Price are about to fall by 15-20% according to analyst and more depending on the region.

One has to informed correctly by recent move from the government to stop the speculation by adding a set of law and regulation to bring back price to a level affordable to the moroccan - a promise made by the king.

We have already seen some measure :
-high taxation on non rented flat or empty flat
-Tax on rent revenue
-fight of the black market - hidden rent return
and a measure of series to fight speculation...

Then there is inflation and petrol price.
Flight and boat tickets have soared
price of service have gone crazy

Remember that prices of land has been multiplyed by 10 and price of housing by 7.

If a fool think that it can still double his money then he might be living still in 1996....and forgot that we are in 2008 that has seen major housing market correection.