Agtisch, you said "surely biglog is missing the whoel point of off plan buying?!? f it was finished and we knew what it looked like the prices would be alot higher!".

I don't think you can make such a claim.

[quote name='Sean' date='Aug 29 2007, 07:23 PM' post='748135']
Agtisch, you said "surely biglog is missing the whoel point of off plan buying?!? f it was finished and we knew what it looked like the prices would be alot higher!".

I don't think you can make such a claim.


What you say in theory is true though you can do your best to predict the future by looking to the past results and surely no one would ever buy off plan anywhere in the world if the price didnt increase once it was built?!?

Plenty of people in Spain and USA have bought off plan and the built price will be lower.
I am being pedantic. The point here is that you EXPECT prices to be higher once the build is complete.
If Saidia is completed, I don't think prices will be higher than the prices on offer today.
When I viewed Saidia 14 months ago, I was told prices would contunue to rise by 2% a month.
I didn't believe it and, so far, have been right by about 2% a month.

I agree with you - the 2% a month was a sales ploy. I work on the supply and demand theory every time. Theres still some properties left to be sold. Only when they've all been sold will prices start to rise. How many properties are left is anyones guess but if some still remain unsold once the resorts finished then you are right - prices will be no higher than the price we paid. Tis the risk.....

Agree on your supply/demand view. Also, I would add that when the resort is complete and whether all the properties are sold by then or not, the next type of buyer is a very different person. I don't think many people will want to live there so these buyers will be looking for holiday homes or B2L investments. Therefore the rental yields will need to stack up against the prices at the time. A £250k villa would need to earn, say, £20k gross of rent in a year for it to be attractive to an investor as the running expenses will be high. This level of rental is unlikely to occur for a long time because holidaymakers will have so much choice in Saidia and other resorts and the airlines are unlikely to provide enough flights initially. I am not saying that Saidia will fail, just that anyone buying now (and obviously wanting capital appreciation as there is no income yet) should think about who they would sell to and what they would pay, given that the next buyer will be more persuaded by income.

Sean your logic is pretty fair me thinks, however I still dont think you have taken due account of the Saidia effect.

This for me is not just another development, if it was I would not have invested.

To the end user whether it's in Spain or Morocco is pretty much irrelevant. The bulk of people will not make a distinction - they will just compare one facility laden holdiay option (a Spannish resort) with another (Saidia) and I believe the facilities and offering will command a robust price to be reflected in owners rentals.

Let's say the brochure showed a villa in La Manga. What will the prospective holiday maker that has been to neither LM or Saidia think?

LM - will give him a nice comfortable villa and 3 decent golf courses, a few shops and retaurants. No beach to speak of, for that he has to drive.

SAIDIA - wil present a nice comfy villa and 3 golf courses again, but here comes the difference; Instead of a handful of restaurants and shops he (and his wife) get a vast range plus a 6km onsite beach, plus vast sparkling marina, bowling, cinemas, far more impressive sports facilities, Royal approval yada yada.
I know I sound like a ranter, thats fine, but you just have to image the largest yatchs out there pulling into Saidia to get some sense of what I'm trying to convey here.

LM villas of the size of the golf villas in LJDF Saidia last time I cheked were renting for between £1000 - £2000 per week depending on season and the price tag to buy from memory was over £600,000 for a 500m2 plot on the golf (not near the golf, ON the golf as my villa is).

For me to have got a villa on such a site for well under £200,000 has got to stand a good chance of turning out well.

Originally just an investment, now we cant wait to use it several times per year - so much to do and all in a nice quality resort. I definitely would rather holiday in Saidia than say LM as I dont want to have to hire a car to get to the beach for a start.

I think they will be once the resort is being fully used.

If people have better comparisions that mine plese feel free, but I still come back to comparisons like;

S/E Menorca - Binifasua, 3 bed detatched villa, 400m2 plot, own pool, no beach but a tiny 'horizon' view of the coast (rocky), no golf, no facilites apart from the odd ok restaurant within a 5 mile radius. Nearest beach is 1 mile away, very average and tiny so packed by 9am. No marina, no shops. Reasonably attractive area but nothing to get excited about and the planes are right over the villa. Price £400,000. Rent in summer £1400 per week.

It is a mistake to assume end users will expect better value holidays in Saidia than say in this villa above, yet I paid well under £200,000.

I talk as quite a fan of S/E Menorca but I can say honestly I would rather own is Saidia as there is just so much more to do and the experience is in a differnet league (stroll out of villa onto golf, jog the 6km beach, coffee at the largest marina in the Med, choose a different sport every day of the week, go to the shopping centre, Spas etc etc).

Furthermore I can see people living here given the lifestyle and onsite health centre. I would'nt live there but there is a sector of society that will. I've read reports of high numbers of French retiring to Morocco - I suspect they think they can make Morocco thier own rather than put up with hoardes of Spanbritsa's.

JUST AN UPDATE FOR THOSE THAT MAY BE CONSIDERING SAIDIA;

According to the lejardindefleur website, the medical facility is built.
The photo is of a fairly large building which they claim will be staffed round the clock by international Doctors.

http://www.lejardindefleur.com

Go to BUILD PROGRESS - SAIDIA GENERAL, click on the Decmber photo.


Also the marina is being extented to take over 1000 boats which they claim makes it the biggest in the Med. Note it will take the largest luxury yatchs / boats on the Ocean.

You're right Dogbox, the marina extension is a significant upgrade but also notice on the new marina plans (see link:- http://www.neo-morocco-property.com/sectio...idia-marina.php ), next to the medina is what I reckon will be the craft village that Fadesa have been commissioned by the Moroccan Government to build. It fits the official description below perfectly.....

'Tourism Minister Adil Douiri authorised the first contract Wednesday (July 25th) for the construction of a Moroccan arts and crafts medina in the coastal resort of Saïdia, in accordance with the "Vision 2015" arts and crafts initiative. Spanish conglomerate Fadesa, the resort's developer, has promised to integrate this first medina into the heart of the coastal village.

The medina offers retail spaces ranging from 20 to 25 square metres. Store owners will receive a 50% reduction on rent within the resort of Saïdia.

The new market will offer other types of space, including workshops offering an introduction to craft activities, shops concentrating on the sale of local produce and culinary art and presentation areas. Douiri indicated that the Saïdia medina will soon be followed by similar areas in the coastal resorts of Laguna Smir (Tamuda Bay) and Plage Blanche in Guelmim, in the south of Morocco.

Douiri added that the launch of the Saïdia medina fits perfectly with the Vision 2015 priorities which call for an overhaul of the arts and crafts sector, with Article 16 proposing the creation of private markets where there is a large flow of clients, particularly tourists.

According to the Minister the project will also provide the opportunity to make Morocco a special tourist destination, highlighting the country's national arts and crafts – one of its real assets in attracting tourists. "To promote the arts and crafts sector, the government is increasing opportunities for direct sales to benefit artists and craftsmen, whose main clientele consists of tourists," he explained.

Fadesa officials said the coastal resort of Saïdia is setting aside an area of 1,715 square metres for the medina which will be divided into four buildings. "We have introduced incentives, setting preferential rental rates for artists and craftsmen at 110 dirhams per month, and by removing the 6% commission on annual sales," one official said.'

This will add another interesting feature to the resort and also importantly, increases the Moroccan cultural touches as well.

BTW does anyone have any ideas what the new development region next to the marina is (beachside -left from above ). It has several large pools within it. Is it a re-introduction of original sea-life centre that was cancelled I wonder???.

Steve C. Thanks for the post, but are you sure about the 110 Dirhams per month rental? I appreciate it should be cheap for local artists to be able to afford and get started, but circa £11 a month seems crazy when you think how much they will take.

The section in my post within the inverted commas is a direct quote from a written news article, so if then rental amount is wrong then the article is wrong.
Apparently however, the government is supplementing the rent. I suppose they think it will encourage the local crafts folk to up sticks and move en masse to the new Saidia location. It'll probably go up later.
A huge craft centre like this should be a big plus for Saidia, I reckon it'll be a popular added attraction.

It would certainly be welcome, particularly if the craftsmen were to produce items nearby rather than simply transporting them from elsewhere. That way tourists can see the artists at work - helping create a clutural experience for visitors. (I certainly appreciated seeing the tannery and plate making when I was in Fez.)

Yes I believe the idea is, rather than have just shops selling items, after all that's what will be in the adjacent medina shopping area, they want to encourage local artisans to work in these units creating their goods whilst the visitors watch them.
Great idea I think. It's nice to see the Moroccan government promoting the real local culture.

I'm sure most of us buying in Morocco would agree that so much of Moroccan art and architecture is outstandingly beautiful, and one of the major things we find attractive about the country. I suppose that's one of the main criticisms that can be directed at the Saidia project, that it's not in an area of any meaningful historical cultural interest. I know it troubles me somewhat. I would have loved for somewhere the likes of Fez, Marrakech, Essaouira etc to be on our immediate doorstep but in the end I plumbed for the great beach, calmer Med sea and (less windy) climate plus all the Med saidia facilities (yes I've got kids!).
I was pleased to see however, on visiting Saidia the efforts that are being made to give the development a nice Moroccan feel, as was promised. The medina area is starting to look quite authentic (and impressive).
I'd still like to have the 'real' Morocco next door, as it were, but you can't have everything and I made my choice, anyway if they build the Fez motorway then it becomes a day trip (or weekend) excursion away for us.

Yes, journey time to Fez should reduce. If I remember correctly, it was a nice enough drive, though I needed my wits about me for last half hour or so when coming down the hill into Fez.

Like you, I prefer Fez, Marrakesh and Essaouri to visit and would be happier if one was on Saidia's doorstep. But it sounds like the Governments efforts to get crafts people working on site should give holiday makers a taste of Moroccan culture. That will be enough for the typical beach going holiday maker. As you'll know, more space would be required for something like a tannery or plate making and these are not activities we'd want on site (smell is bad for tannery and there is much smoke from the huge stoves used for plate making.)

Which development in Saidia have you bought into?

We've bought a villa on the Palms - Oasis. I chose to buy from Superior because I've bought through them before in Florida and being the developers and dealing
with them directly allows you to modify the design of your villa pre-purchase. So I've changed the shape of my villa quite a bit - changed the floor-plan, added a balcony, dome on
the roof, raised the ceilings, bigger pool etc etc. It costs a heck of a lot less than you'd think and you end up with a nice bespoke villa. They won't let you do anything OTT of course, that would effect your neighbours but you can still really put a very big design input in. My modifications were put before the architect -back and fore- till we're both happy.
To tell you the truth, I've got so used to this individualisation process that I wouldn't want to buy a villa without it. We're not into making a quick buck on the place, we just want a lovely getaway home from home in the sun which will also increase in value over time (mind you who wouldn't).

Sounds good Steve C. I think I would enjoy my property more if I had the input into construction that you have had. The variations in design should also help differentiate your property from others when you eventually come to sell too.

Soup, I'm glad I did not buy one of Superiors own products as I have found thier aftersales service awfull. Indeed I asked why they have not updated build progress photos for months and they replied "the MD has no interest any more so you will waste your time complaining to him".

Apparantly he has lost all interest as he is selling off the company in bits. Imagine trying to get building snaggs dealt with!

COMPARISSON WITH NEW VILLA IN A POLARIS WORLD (PW) SPANNISH DEVELOPMENT ('Condado de Alhama' - thier flagship sports complex resort):

PW detatched 3 bed villa, own pool, second line golf.
143m2 built and a 480 - 750m2 plot.
No beach (closest is a 15 minute drive)
No marina
Good sports facilities - but far less than Saidia
No on site hotels to drive rentals
Price from £446000


LeJardinDeFleur detached 3 bed villa, own pool, second line golf
Similar size and finsh
Price £180000 was about the average

The end user will have a far greater range of leisure activities on saidia and those golf widows and children in particular will have much more relevant activities that will engage them, not least of which is the large beach.

The LJDF villas close to beach recently released seemed to be around £250000+. The Polaris World villas close to a beach start at £840000 and thats with hardly any facilities

Thanks for that update Dogbox, I hadn't realised Superior was going through change. My comments were general and I hope that those purchasing there don't have any extra problems with build quality etc. Its quite a turn around. When we bought in it was the Property Logic properties that carried the larger risk if anything. (New company etc, whereas Superior had established a good track record and were to be the builders - not just the developers.)

Things seemed to have a few big steps forward recently, hotel due to open Ist July, first golf-course almost ready etc.

How do people feel about it all now?

Is anyone out there?

Nobody cares anymore.

The punters have left the building.

Maybe dogbox hanged himself...

Sorry, but that is a dreadfull thing to post. Im disgusted by that.

Me to, every one knows it should be....



No one cares anymore.

The punters have left the forum.

Maybe dogbox hanged himself...

Yes thats an absolute disgrace, Dogbox has thrown a rope over the rafters and not even a picture

Sensitive types need not click
paying the penalty for blind optimism

Well Rondy and Jesus, you've really shown your true colours and discredited yourselves totally.

The punters haven't left the forum - it's just that we're not as full of verbal diarrhoea as some people.

The latest photos of Saidia ( and I've seen over 400) look fantastic actually and I'm very pleased with the way things are progressing.

Check out the user bar at the bottom its just you and me fws, as a matter of interest have you 'invested in Sadia?

No one has left, there is just nothing left to say!

The project makes good progress. There are pictures all over the net.

Bottom line:

I think we all agreed a while back that we would not who was correct the bulls or bears for at least a couple of years.

Why you bears are dancing a nasty vicious 'victory' dance in this thread is beyond me and very premature. True colours indeed.

Yes we have a golf villa - happily planning on spending some of our time there in winter when it's all up and running.

It was a freaking joke! Chill out man.

If you haven't left the forum, how come you do not add any contribution anymore?

Let's be sincere, Morocco was the hype of 2006, Brazil was the hype of 2007 and there is no hype in 2008 as banks do not lend money anymore
for stupid dreams...

They can't take the joke Rondy because there beloved Saidia is not shaping up.


Here is a dogbox quote from yesterday on another forum




And here is on from Soup Dragon yesterday




here is Steve C's input




And here is what fws thinks on this forum




Joking aside fws there are a few Saidia investors who would beg to differ.

Dogbox for over a year now has been going "on and on" about Saidia more than Stephen Bishop and Aswad put together. He is the true peid piper of Saidia



and at the same time has discredited the resorts in the north west of Morocco without knowing anything about them.

To use a phrase from Blackadder "We're as similar as two dissimilar things in a pod."


Anyway I'm off, just had a hot tip that Jamaica is the next big investor hotspot, I have been advised there are lots of pretty women.

To be honest, I am looking forward for new places for my holidays, Spanish Costas are completely wrecked and Turkey is too far.

I shall give a shot to Saidia and north west MOrocco when they are ready.

I am happy that the Morocoo hype is over, it was getting annoying (especially from people like Dogbox who does not have any idea what is talking about).

Morocco is not all about Saida...even though some people might think it from looking at moroccan related threads on this site! Apart from the PLan Azure resorts (of which Saida is just one by the way!!) there has been considerable activity in Marrakesh, Agadir & Essouaria by the Brits. However the Spanish, French have also been active in places that are rarely if ever mentioned on these forums. El Jadida is a great resort town...not marketed to the Brits at all (although this may change with the new Mazagan development on the cards now starting). Some prices in areas away from the coast have been startling also driven by the move of domestic flights from casablanca airport to the new one near Benslimane.
Also renovation of medina properties continues apace. Renovation is particularly attractive in morocco due to the relatively low labour costs & the quirkiness of the properties (they are not all huge riads you know). Many Brits are put off by this due to the sometimes complex issues around ownership, language barrier and the difficulties of renovationg at a distance...the Spanish have no such qualms & have been pretty active in this area for the last couple of years. (& yes we have done the renovation route having been turned off by the off plan twists & turns at Tanjah Beach)
Not wishing to bang on like dogbox BUT the infrastructure issues are being addressed ...not just for Saida but for other areas of the country. This shows me that these people are serious about moving their economic base.
One thing I thought telling...sand is becoming a precious commodity....I kid you not, the price has gone UP throughout last year as (it is rumoured) one developer from the middle east bought up the entire country's stock for their development. So now we individual renovators have to watch the quality of the sand we are getting on site...enterprising locals are visiting the beaches with their donkey carts in the middle of the night and loading up!! Yes it's illegal, & no you really don't want this in your cement mix...solution....taste the sand for salt when it arrives on site. Annoying but , to me, a clear sign that things in Morocco are on the up!

The negative comments made by those that have bought in Saidia is with reference to pictures of a golf course, not general pictures of construction / completed sites in Saidia. There is confusion over whether or not the first course has indeed been completed. I'm aware that golf courses take time to set, if set is the right word. (You don't just landscape then plant grass and hey presto have a championship standard golf course 6 weeks later.)

Jesus,

You're just a Troll who gets some kind of twisted thrill out f other people's bad luck or misfortune.

Next time you're rubber necking as you go past a pileup let's hope that .........

Berk

I will do my best for you gavin but I can't promise anything. Matron only allows us out for a few hours after we have taken our medication and the electric genital cuff has us all conditioned.

Saidia investors won't thank you for implying they have had bad luck and misfortune. If this is your opinion then you are sadly wrong. Saidia is a good investment, my point if you cared to negotiate around the banter at dogbox's expense is that it's not the only good investment in Morocco.

P.S.

I can't see dogbox in those red and yellow knee length trousers can you!

Have you seen all the people queuing in T5 trying to get to Sadia?

What is happening.? No posts on the Morocco post for over a week!

Did anybody actually buy anything or was it all hype as we suspected?

How are the figures looking Dogbox?

Hi Picnic,

Do you own a property on the site, or are you planning to buy one?

If the answer is 'no' to both questions perhaps you could explain to me why you're on this site and appearing to be revelling in what you think is other people's misfortune?

Hey gavin Im rubber neckin again, why do you keep banging on about peoples misfortune.

Hey guys, I googled this site especially for you all! That will save you wittling the time away on a subject which you obviously have no invested interest in??? Never fails to amaze me! Hope it helps.
http://www.urban75.org/useless/bored.html

Serious question time.

My sisters are planning on moving to morocco in, like, September. They've got 'boyfriends' over there and want to essentially relocate. They want to buy because they think this'll give them residency and let them work.

I've done a bit of digging, and I've found a couple of sources that says owning property in morocco is not a guarantee of being offered a permit to reside or, more importantly, to work. I know that work permits are heinously restricted in an attempt to halt local unemployment, and frankly, I don't think the bar work they're hoping for is going to cut it.

Does anyone have any information one way or the other?

Apart from the obvious I guess Picnic is trying to highlight the folly of engaging in overseas speculative investment during the fag end of the biggest ever credit bubble.

Prodding Dogbollox, who has been ramping this pile of crap for I don't know how long is a highly commendable activity - giving much needed balance for those stupid enough to be sucked in by the promise of easy money. Good work Picnic keep it up.

Yes the knives are out. Any investment in morocco has to be chosen wisely just like anywhere else.

But to more pressing matters.

I have a carrot in the fridge that has been there for quite some time now. I didn't use it with the others because it looked small and mall formed. Anyway, every time I open the fridge door it catches my eye and I am feeling guilty. My fridge is a good one and has done a good job of preserving the carrot but on the last inspection it was quite limp. I feel embarrassed to mention it on this thread because I don't think it's a Moroccan carrot, but the worry outweighs my guilt. I am afraid that it has squatters rights, in fact it has been there for so long it might even have prescriptive rights. I am at my whit's end. Does any one have any advice, if so please keep it to your self.

HaHarrr.

Just come back from two weeks in Morocco, and I was shocked by the the over valued pieces of crap that were on offer. Especially in Marrakech and essaouira... Holy Crap!

The problem is that now that all you idiots tried property investing there, paying through the nose for junk,you have to laugh at the ridiclous prices being asked for a mud walled so called "riad"... £250K! And the Moroccans actually beleive they are worth that much because some goon paid that for the one next door, a Moroccan will never accept that prices will go down, even if they have to hang on their mud walls for 30 years, so good luck for the future.

Congratulations!

I just found this forum and I have been laffing my fat butt off for the past 5 minutes. I bought in Saidia a couple years ago and have just bought an apartment in a development down from Casablanca by the new Plan Azur resort with the casino. Im not worried about all this negativity around Saidia as I think in the long term it will be a nice resort. Theres just probably a lot of crap that needs to be ironed out before it gets to that stage. Mine is delayed as I suppose they all are now?
However I do agree with Jesus that there are other good investments. I am still very bullish on Morocco - you just need to be choosy. My recent one in Sidi Bouzid near the new Plan Azur is where locals are buying so I know Im safe. I went out last week to see the site and a bunch of Moroccans pulled up in their car to look also - as we left I saw the developer filling in contracts (same price as I paid too ) so I reckon thats as good a sign as any if locals are buying.

Jesus - Please can you let me know where I can get one of those electric genital cuffs - they sound right up my street....reckon the wife would love it too.

You must all be bloody mad paying 120k for an average apartment, no reasonable access, no infrastructure, no demand, islamic country, King dies who knows what will happen, not a familly destination, no direct flights, rentals max 2 months at 1/4 expected rent, next to a volatile country etc..etc.
If you have already bought...good luck, if everything goes to plan wait 5-10 years to realise any return.
For me to get to Saidia and rent an appt for 2 weeks, I could get 2 weeks in the Domincan all inclusive for half the price and get there quicker. Not that I want that though, if you are thinking of saidia 'dont do it'.
Just my 2 penneth worth

120K for an average apartment? 120 for a serviced high spec Magnum, the APs are much cheaper
No demand?
Islamic country, well so is half of SE Asia
Next to a volatile country? The UK is a volatile country and we spend most of the year in it.
Not a family destination, based on what, have you actually been?

And why do you feel the need to give your two penneth worth if you're not buying in Saidia?
Perhaps those of us who have purchased have visited the area and done a bit more research than you appear to have done.

I think you'll find that the majority of the 647 odd posts on this thread are two penneth worth.

Just my 2p worth.

Since it started in april 2006 until Jan 2008 this thread got roughly 28 posts per month.

Now it gets 6.6 posts per month.

I think that these figures might show us how the appetite for foreign investments generally has slowed.And that those people suggesting 'buyer beware' might well have had a case!

It certainly seems to mirror what is happening on the streets in the UK (if you happen to be in estate agency )