Well Robster, I live in Morocco and I visited Saidia in 2005 and yes I visited the showroom where these buildings you so proudly show us are being built.

Personally I have extensive experience in construction, both as an Engineer and as a 'real' investor in business in Morocco (Im in manufacturing in the construction industry).

When I saw your photos it confirmed what I have always thought about Saidia and the Hype coming from Dogbox's keyboard.

Having heard months and months of hype from Dogbox, I thought maybe he may be right and I may be wrong (all this talk about Spain's largest construction company, Fadesa, 60 Gucci, 11 Hotels yada yada). But your photos, and now, the reaction's of others only confirm what I already knew.

Let me enlighten you.

Typically, Moroccan construction relies extremely heavily on lots and lots of concrete. Thick concrete walls.

As someone else said, I wonder what they look like from up close. I can predict that; nothing will be level, nothing will be straight as all of that will have been done by sight. Dodgy electrics, even dodgier plumbing, abysmal tiling (because nothing is level/straight), with final rendering of said concrete put together until it 'sort of looks right'. Windows and doors will be of the cheapest variety (as proved by your latest 'finished' picture). I could really go on and on and on.

I also agree with the others regarding the beach photo and that swampy photo which I don't know what it was (surely not the marina )

So, these monoliths, even from the distance this picture was taken, IN MY VAST EXPERIENCE, look no different from the many hundreds (if not thousands) of properties I have seen myself being constructed over here.

I can also bet you that archtecturally, these properties will lack a lot in terms of privacy, how much thought has really gone into the layout of the project, the design of the living space, how adequate the street lighting will be, how easily vehicles will be able to drive in and out of the complex, safety etc etc etc. That list can go on and on also.

For sure, Morocco is a changing place, and it can only improve and it is (I'm over here doing exactly that - playing my part in improving the country), but I feel that building works over here will take many many years (decades basically) until they are lets say 'acceptable' (and I am VERY realistic about what constitutes acceptable/respectable).

Flipping properties (which does not add ONE ounce of value to a country in need of improvement) I am highly against.

Still, keep believing your own rhetoric......

Good luck.

P.S. Dogbox, even if you can't see anyone else's argument, at least try to assist your's by learning to spell properly - it's really bugging me that you consistently get your 'i' and 'e's round the wrong way (e.g it's 'friend', not 'freind', 'their' not 'thier' etc etc) - people will be more likely to take you seriously.

Well Biglog

I read your latest post with interest and appreciated your opinion, that is until you slagged someone off for spelling mistakes!

I too am very experienced in this field, 15 years to be exact. I too have visited the Saidia site several times and I too have visited the showhomes. The walls and floors are level, the doors fit, the windows fit so I dont know which property you visited. The construction companies involved with Saidia are not cowboys, these are big players with many years experience, perhaps you should offer your services as a consultant, I am sure they would welcome your experince and vast knowledge.

The majority of construction in these overseas property markets use the same construction techniques, why is Moroccos use of concrete an issue?

With regards to privacy I really dont have a clue what you are on about. I suggest you take some time to look at site plans showing layouts before coming up with such drivvel.
I havent posted any pictures of the marina so that comment was pointless too.

Good luck with the "improving the country" with your "VAST EXPERIENCE" bit, I dont know what they would do without you.



PS Its "architecturally"

R

Thanks for the enlightment there Big Log. Its great to hear the self-appointed Moroccan minister of development doing his best and playing his part in improving the country. With your bare hands you are working hard to build the country/economy, whilst with your touch typing fingers you remind us how ***** so many things are there - kudos to you.

Let me point you in the direction of the marina:
http://www.propertyshowrooms.com/morocco/p...mages/?f=MARINA

You say "Moroccan construction relies extremely heavily on lots and lots of concrete" Being in construction surely you would know that "Concrete is a construction material that consists, in its most common form, of Portland cement, aggregate (generally gravel and sand) and water" - Or are you just full of ******* ?

Just maybe that "swamp" is a mini resovoir for all the concrete that is required. In case you had not heard, Saidia is not one or two blocks of apartments, it is in the tens of thousands, none of which are over 3 stories

I know many people in construction, not many of them post on internet forums almost daily, and in the case of a Dogbox post, respond within a few hours. You must have a nice little number going on there in Morocco.

Oh and here are some more recent shots of 'some' of the apartments on the development. As many agree on here these are the FADESA apaerments and are genuinally consdisered the least aesthetic, still they
http://www.propertyshowrooms.com/morocco/p...DESA%20Jan%2007

Biglog, stop crying about people flipping, its not illegal, people have done it in the past and will continue to in the future - get over it. By writing "IN MY VAST EXPERIENCE" in big letters, and yapping on about spelling mistakes (being an engineer also i dont know many other engineers who give a damn or even notice minor spelling mistakes), it makes you look a rather sad individual whos only contribution to this thread is to post highly negative opinions about every aspect of Saidia.

I see it will be a nice 22degC this weekend in Oujda, I would guess slightly cooler up in Saidia, ideal for golf or to escape the cloudy, windy and rainy parts of northen Europe. Still Biglog would have you believe Oujda/Saidia is in some sort of bermuda triangle weather system where in the summer season its "too hot" and the off season does not last that long......Mmmmm

Biglog

LJDF have made much of thier '10 yr build guarantee' and committment (do spell checker on that please - my t's and m's just as bad as e's and i's) 'to be built to European standards'.

Many of us are in touch with one another and will not be parting with 60% on completion without having carried out inspections. I would suggest that dozens of determined buyers acting as one will prove to be quite a force, and add to that the fact the King has is name attatched to this project.......

Furthermore the developer has other very prestigious projects in the pipeline in Med Saidia, so will rely heavily on the built portfolio as testament to thier ability. High profile footballers want to be associated with quality.

Thats the thing with off - plan investing, those in early take the biggest gamble and lowest prices. I suppose if we do ok it will be just 'good luck' eh , as opposed to foresight?


BTW, What area of manufacturing you are in?

Interesting that you state the nature of your business Biglog. With the scale of Med-Saidia I would expect there to be a large number of sub-contract compaines involved. I'm just speculating here, but maybe your bitterness towards the developement stems from not being involved, or that the hype surrounding it is sucking in many prospective buyers of projects you are involved in?

http://www.propertyshowrooms.com/morocco/p...P6%20-%20FADESA

Exclusive 5* ?.

Low density ?

Exactly why I didnt buy Fadesa built stock. Does'nt alter the fundamental USP of Saidia.

I for one went for the LeJardinDeFleur gated development, which is nothing like the Fadesa product which I agree is far too high density.

In fact I told the EA that first introduced me to the site that I detested the 'Toy town Fadesa' blocks.

I think you are flogging a dead horse here Dogbox

Youve said it, Ive said it, few others have said it but it doesnt seem to be sinking in that Fadesa is not Saidia, just give up, its their loss.

What fools the Hilton are for investing millions in such a dump eh

bye

R

Is that the marina? If not, did you take any photos of the marina?

Mutley

The links that Ex-Pat posted show the most up to date pictures of the 840 berth marina. These are more up to date than mine

R

Oh dear, very low IQ. Seems I've touched a raw nerve there. What's up ?? Bricking it about your 'investment' ??

What type of Engineer are you ? Gas ? Plumbing ? Heating ?? Or Toilet.

Such clever investor.

Dear Log Almighty

Please tell us mere mortals what we should do? We are all obviously too thick to make our own minds up, what does the Oracle say we should put our money into?

I have reviewed several of you posts on this forum and I cannot fathom exactly what you are adding, you just seem to throw out insults or derogatory remarks with very little or no point whatsoever!

I like a good balanced discussion but never seem to get one from you. You seem to have it in for certain posters just because they dont agree with your opinions and this is very sad. You may be a very successful investor, you may be a 14yr old geek with nothing better to do, we dont know and to be frank, your posts dont indicate one way or the other.

R


PS Sorry if there are any spelling mistakes, I is not that brite

Ah yes, I see now. Are there any photographs of the golf courses?

I love all this bickering on this forum - do keep it up!
Well ive just come back from my first visit to the resort so i thought id share my feelings:
Im buying a one bed fedesa on AP-5 by the way.

The location really is in the middle of no where - its a personal opinion if this is a good or bad thing, for me - as long as it is easily accessable it doesnt matter. I took a flight from malaga to melilla then a 90 min taxi ride thru the border. The oujda flights have to be in place for the resort to succeed.

It was a beautiful day when i went and most of the villas and AP4 & 6 are built along with the marina. The rest is pretty much a building site but i can see the vision and if the finish quality is what we all hope it will be a fantastic resort. No amount of photos can show how big the whole site is though thats for sure. The show apartments had a superb finish to them. Security would be a concern purely because the site is so open - i didnt ask if there was going to be a fence around the whole site or what measures are going to be in place - does anyone know? Morocco is definitely a poor country, but so was spain 30 yrs ago - it has everything going for it and the king is heading in the right direction to raise living standards.

I cant see how the resort will be inhabitable for at least another year - even with some properties finished i cant see how the shops or restaurants or roads or sporting areas will be completed in the near future.

Thats about it!



Posted by agtisch Send private message

Good to hear the trip went well. I agree it wil probally be another 18 months before many of the resort facilities are up and running. But this was always the case, and im sure the serious investors have factored this in. Of course the airlines are aware of this and in my opinion I think airlines will hold off until maybe Easter 2008 before there is a greater schedule of direct flights from Oujda to major European cities. Transavia and Ryanair have both stated there intentions on this route. I also think its a possibility Royal Air Morocco could increase Casablance-Oujda flights, as you can fly from anywhere to Casablanca, and if they arrange their schedules correctly you could get away with a 2-3 transfer time.

It has been stated that the resort will be gated, we shall have to wait and see. A few of the more negative posters have taken a rather short sighted view that , morocco = muslims = sucide bombers. However, the French and Spanish have been holidaying here many many long time in large numbers, Germans have been going to Agadir in large numbers also in the last 10 years and the more wealthy end of the market have been holidaying in Marrekesh. Like the Spanish example/model, the local people know high quailty tourism will bring money into the economy and create jobs. Any sort of attack would be an attack on the future economy of the country and the Kings vision. Its up to the individual investor to assess the risk.

Some of the individual developments will be gated - like Le Jardin de Fleur, Oasis, Tasa, The Greens, etc. The whole resort will be open (especially as there is one parcel of land which currently houses local Moroccans which is not going to benefit from the infrastructure being put in place for the rest of the resort). However there will be police checks at all the entry points to the resort.

Does anybody know when the Property Logic apart-hotel will be launched. It will be interesting to compare thes prices to thes of Port Lixus.

I believe all thes first release ones at Port Lixus are reserved however I reserve judgement on thes also. What are peoples thoughts on them?

Note the hotel in P Lixus is not appart hotel, its being developed by an EA called Essential. I think the P Lixus condos are a bargain compared to anything else Ive seen anywhere. The developer needs to prove thier funding lines in great detail and substantiate thier financial position before any investor can proceed with confidence.

In my book a developer that goes out of thier way to do this is welcome. Those that dont probably cant.

Excuse my knowledge, I believed Port Lixus was an apart hotel? Is thes not the situation? I am perhaps mistaken, I am in unfamiliar territory.

Could you pleaze tell me the difference between the Port Lixus condo's and the offering from Property Logic, namely the aparto hotel.

With thanks DogBox.

I think Im right in saying the Condo recently released is not an Appart Hotel.

Im not aware of any Property Logic aparto hotel - let me know what you find out on this.

They are aparently releasing an aparto-hotel beach front in Saidia. I will be interesting to make thes comparisons. I very much like Port Lixus, I have a villa on Saidia and dont want to put my chickens in one basket.

I will post thes findings when I have more.

With all due respect Dogbox I think you are mistaken in many points.

Back in the 80's I heard these same comments: Morrocco the hotspot, people flocked to buy properties and then it all deflated. I know people who went bankrupt as developers and REA. I'm sure you'll argue things have changed since then, of course, just like the dot com bubble and the irrational exhuberance we saw. Things don't change, they repeat themselves over and over again.

There will be no tunnel joining Spain, my home country, with Morocco for at least the next 20-30 years if at all, let alone 2007 !!

You are not going to make 4000 pounds a week in rent, I can guarantee you that no matter how good your property is (I'm a real estate lawyer and I buy, sell and rent them professionally).

Do you realise that Morocco is in a verge of having fundamentalist terrorist attacks again such as those that killed and wounded people in the "Casa de España" a year ago ? They target foreigners such as british and americans.

But then I might be totally wrong and your development might be something unique. I agree totally with you that you have to get there before the "masses" but I would issue the utmost caution on buying happily carefree in Morocco. Morocco is what the king says at all times, he's the law.

Drakan, that's an old post from Dogbox. In other posts he has acknowledged that tunnel is only a possibility. As you say, if it does happen it will be quite some time before it completes.

A few of us have voiced similar views on rental figure (consensus being that £1k a week in high season is more realistic.)

Islamic element and how the West perceives it remains the greatest risk for those investing in Morocco. The King is aware how having an islamic element in his Government would affect his vision for 2010.

I don't think comparison to 80s is appropriate. Look at the funds being pumped into improving the infrastructure and how budget airlines have become such big players, opening up new and more exotic destinations to the masses. I welcome any thoughts you have on why the result could be the same as in the 80s.

why pick on Morocco when talking about property crashes 20 years ago? I know developers in UK, Spain etc who also went bankrupt in late 80s/early 90s - there was a recession in many countries!

Yup, sorry. I realised after I had posted it there were actually 35 pages already on this thread. My mistake I thought it was a recent thread.

Mmm, no actually I don't believe it's like the 80's. I'm not against off-plan or flipping properties, I do it myself. It's just that I think we are at the end of a real estate cycle Worldwide and entering now is innapropiate IMHO. But I can assure you that I wouldn't mind investing there if the cycle was early. The terrorist attacks and the end of the construction boom is what would concern me most buying in Morrocco right now.

Magnate, could you perhaps share your views on the relative merits in comparison to LJDF/Oasis? I would, in particular, like to hear your thoughts in comparison to RT7.

Apologies, I was under the impression from your postings that you have reserved on The Greens.

I agree, terrorism is a concern. So why did I take the risk?

Well firstly I considered some established Islamic tourist magnates, namely Turkey, Egypt, Dubai, Bali and Malaysia.

Egypt, Turkey, and Bali have had some high profile terrosist incidents yet in the end the Great British public have very short memories and its business as usual although a relatively short period of reduced tourism can occur.
My understanding is that Dubai is much less tolerant and liberal than Morocco, yet Dubai has been a great sucess even though its 7 hours away and pretty unattractive with no pretty or interesting coastline to speak of.

Im almost certain some terrorist incidents will occur in Morocco, but Im just as confident the British masses will forget, or just as likely NOT EVEN BE AWARE! A lot of Brits couldnt name a single Governmant mistister, let alone be up to speed on World events.

There is another dimension to this; What I call the 'come what may' factor. Although some of us fret and worry, others dont. When a couple of beach bombs went off in Turkey I recall asking someone whether they wanted to cancel thier forthcomming holiday, to which they replied 'what will be will be mate'.


SUMMARY

Will bombs go off = yes

Will people base thier holiday decisions on this = not really, they will forget within a few weeks and then be 'blown away' (exuse the pun) by a brochure showing huge facility laden golf and beach resorts with year round weather and close to the UK, end of really


Drakan Im also aware of the previous predicted boom that didnt get underway, but this time really is different in scale and determination. I dont think large developers such as Fadesa, Emaar (worlds biggest) and Gulf would be investing this heavily otherwise.

Spain is fine, but for me a little too crowded and over developed.

You say 'nothing changes', I say 'everything changes'. Remember with any new idea at first it seems absurd, then confusing yet later becomes 'the norm'. Many nations accross the world have been transformed by tourism. You know in the 1970s people from the UK thought Spain was backwards, with no infrastructure, brown tap water, liquid sh1tz and hotels that fell down!

Where I live, this is unfortunately fact of life. We cannot get away from thes fact that terrorists prevail. It is the world today.

An issue has been flagged by some people visiting Saidia.

An impression has been left in some buyers minds that some of the developers are not concerned about the standard or timing of the golf courses and that they just want to flog thier stock as quickly as possible WITHOUT TAKING THE TIME TO ANSWER PEOPLE'S VALID QUESTIONS ABOUT THE STANDARD AND TIMING OF THE FACILITIES - particularly golf and shopping.

If any developers out there have any input on this, it would be most welcome.

Dogbox, could you expand on thes? Thes is the first relatively negative post you have posted with regards to Saidia. I have purchased a villa but have nagging doubts about what the end product will be with regards to the standard of thes resort etc.

It does worry me that thes developers will just want to be in and out as quick as possible. I hope the King will not accept anything less than 100% on his flagship resort??

Weren't there rumblings a few months ago that Seve Ballesteros had been signed up to put his stamp on one of the golf courses; including a golf academy to be sited there? I've also wondered about the state of the golf courses and haven't seen anything planted on any of them yet?

Another question, does anyone know/remember when the Barcelo is supposed to open?

Im not sure what is happening with the courses. Although the layout for the first one is mostly in place, they havent got any grass on it yet, but I know nothing about building golf courses, so maybe this is normal?

The Barcelo was originally planned to open in July 07 according to their website around xmas time, but I have just checked and it now says coming 2008. Why, I have no idea

Is there actually a real estate forum devoted to real estate in the Middle East? Or is anyone buying anything there at all? Lol, but I'm serious about this question. What about Abu Dhabi?

[Have a look at www.skyscrapercity.com. I find that's the best source of information on the net.

Yes, I heard rumblings that Save Ballesteros was being lined up to be the name behind the golf courses. If memory serves me correctly the course in phase 1 (championship course) was to be a Ballesteros signature course and the other two would also have his name. I don't know what state of play is now. Don't remember anything about there being a golf accademy.

Agree with Rumpola on Barcelo. It isn't unusual for their to be delays with these things, particulary when it is only part of such a large development. Saidia is a hive of activity and you can see that things are progressing even if not as quickly as hotel operators / Fadesa had originally planned. I believe Port Lixus is experiencing the same, though it is at an earlier stage than Saidia.

Ive tried this site a couple of times but could find nothing on Morocco let alone Moroccan property. If you have an exact link I would appreciate it

Yes, Morocco is on the home page of www.skyscrapercity.com under Continental Forums. The most information is under Projects at the top of the Morocco page.

Hi all,

I am considering handing over the first instalment having visited the site last Friday for an RT2 apartment.

I went out on a trip arranged through TMPA and was unaccompanied by an agent initially until a Commercial Director of Property Logic realised this and he showed me round for the day. There were numerous agents and potential buyers from a wide range of backgrounds and nationalities there including Brtish, Portugese and Estonian.

What struck me most was the lack of any "hard sell" whatsoever. The trip was exactly as advertised and everthing went on rails including hotel, flights and transport.

Weather was lovely - 20 odd degrees in early March which felt warm even with a northerly breeze off the sea.

Someone earlier said RT2 was 1st phase but I have seen it described as 2nd phase but in a 1st phase area. Anyway the shells of some of these are up. Does anyone know how far these are actually from the beach as it is difficult to tell from the diagram style plans which may not be properly to scale. If they are to scale and the site is 6km long then the front edge of RT2 would seem to be about 500m from the beach, bearing in mind it has a golf course in front of it and then the hotel, the one on the right of which as you look seaward is the King's one allegedly (it has minarets anyway).

Took some photos which I'll post when I work out how to do it on here.

By the way thanks to all the constructive posters so far.

Nice to hear yet another poster reporting a pleasant climate - I was beginning to have doubts when some 'knowledgable' posters based in Morocco kept claiming it was cold.

Look forward to seeing your photos.

Anyone have any up to date photos of the marina?

Some pictures from last week:

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Some more pictures from last week:

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Some more pictures from last week (Medina & Promenade):

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Thanks for the pictures, got any more?

Thanks for the photos! Looks like very pleasant weather and the medina seems to be really taking shape -- i think this will be a great draw for the resort, boutique shops and even Cinemas from what I've heard.

I was out there 9 months ago and the beach bar, beach, marina and promenade looked the same as in these photos. Obviously the properties are being built for sale to investors but how quickly is the infrastructure happenning? Is there a 2nd beach bar yet? Have the golf courses progressed?

Well not having seen what was there 9 months ago that's hard to say. There are various lined lakes of water that must be the golf water features but there is no grass or trees yet. Then again I'd expect these to be planted later anyway.

Anyone know a site that has a good satellite picture of the area?

The best I can think of is Google Earth, but that is quite a while out of date. You can see the roads, the Marina, and AP4 and AP6, but thats about it.

Property Showrooms keeps quite a good gallery of photos so does the eyeworldwide site.

Found the Google Earth one which has good definition but as you say is a while out of date - before they flooded the inland bit of the marina. The marina is well over twice the size shown on Google Earth now, yet it says "copyright 2007" on the image which I don't think is right as I'm sure the marina was flooded last year.