OK, now I know.

The King knows exactly what he's doing, it's muppets like you that haven't got a clue. You should take a very good look at a map of Morocco and see which little corner of nowhere you are buying into.

What I can see is that you are a ramper, hyping a place you claim to be so interested in for Holidaying yet you've never even set foot in the country let alone the town you claim to know so well !!!!

Spain, if you like that sort of thing, has tons of culture (it's the brits that lack in that department), same as Cyprus, steeped in culture, history, sun, good food, plenty to do and see, relax if you want, nice people etc etc.

I don't even like Dubai and what it's got and represents, but we all know what there is at Dubai and if we want that, we know where to go. It's a glitzy, over the top, luxury luxury luxury place, if that's your cup of tea.

So if it's Coast you are after, why pay so over the top for your bit of nowhere ??

Or why are you such a ramper ??

Me thinks you are on a commission......

Biglog, everybody is entitled to have hobbies.

Some of us like discussing about football, some about women, some about cars. Dogbox enjoys discussions about Saidia...

So again I ask why the King with all his power and resources chose Saidia as his first showcase Plan Azure project for the world to see? If we follow your train of thought he's either a complete idiot or in the midst of a great hoax.

Dont forget Saidia is 7million m2, so far in a way his most important Plan Azure site.

Note the marina will be the largest in the Med and hold up to 60m long yatchs.

Note the 11 interntational hotel groups building hotels within the site. Muppets

It must have something going for it!

For me it will have everything I need as Ive told you many times. The further away I am from turgid tours of vineyards and ruins the better.

Open space for someone like me is poetic whereas your type (the Michael Pallin camp) would consider it nothingness. Never shall we agree. To give you an idea I would never go on any kind of organised group tour, or cruise, and would never visit the depressing heaving Pyramids, indeed I find London depressing which is why I moved into the surrounding countryside.

Ive been to Cyprus and the Ballearics which you say will be more attractive than Saidia. I wouldnt say lots of 1/2 built and abandoned property, mixed with sprawling developments, factories and nice beaches all crammed into little islands is anything particularly special and definitely not magical in any sense (and I speak as someone whos been back to the better parts of Menorca a few times).

Because it is the time for the 2007 resolutions, do you promise us that you are not going to sell your Saidia love villa in the period 2007-2010?

If you owned Morocco, would you give away your best bits (Marrakech, Fes, Agadir, Tangiers etc) or would you give away parts that you didn't really care less about, in the corner of nowhere, and say "there, have that, see what you can do make of this"....... Saidia is a nothingness made up to be something special by commission-paid hypers like you.

You talk about Cyprus since you've been there (well done, you are getting out after all), but you have never set foot in Morocco ?? How do you know whether it will have all what you need ?? You've never been there, it hasn't been built..... you are on a commission aren't you ??

LOL regarding the Michael Palin reference btw, but I like nothing more than a nice beach - speaking from experience, saidia is nothing special at all regarding beach/sea quality. In fact it's very ordinary.

Finally, due to your lack of local knowledge, you talk about the King as if Saidia is this prestigious place that he's overlooking on a daily basis. Let me tell you (from experience) that the King gets about in his country and sees everywhere, this is normal for him and the fact that he goes to Saidia doesn't surprise anyone (except easily impressed people such as yourself), nor does it guarantee that it'll be this monumental awesomeness you predict it to be.

Finally, over here Saidia is very very low on the list of worthy news items regarding property in Morocco.

Saidia you say is nothingness, well long before I bought I did research and that revealed the area to be known for its bird watching, whale watching, nature reserves and trekking. Sounds allright to me.
Of course the resort once built will certainly add up to a pretty big deal.

You cite Tangiers as one of the best bits. Thats not what visiotrs have told me. They describe it as an industrial mess of a place.

You say the King wants to palm us off with Saidia. Cmon Biglog. What do you think that would do for his reputation amongst future investors. Im sure the guy aint that stooopid.
The hotels wouldnt be investing in a place without prospects.

Im not a commision crow. All the agents offer commsion and indeed some people have gone on to buy in Saidia with whom Ive 'chatted' online but I have'nt seen ant dosh nor do expect any but if someone out there wants to send me some, feel free.

Ever since you and I first jousted you've banged on and on about a visit. I dont know how many times you need me to tell you I didnt need a visit.

I think I might pay the place a visit in summer if I have time.

You say the beach is ordinary, yet the Moroccans themselves have long referred to it as the Plue Pearl of Morocco - are you sure you didnt visit the dodgy end?

2 people I know personaly visited and they said the sand was nicer, a lot nicer than that on the Costsas.

The pictures they took show a pretty nice beach although a bit messy in places but all the mess will be groomed away for sure.

Beaches are funny things, very subjective. I read in many journals including Conde Nast Traveller that Cebu beach in the Philippines was as good as beaches get yet I found that nothing special. Ive had similar experiences elsewhere.

Yes Im aware the Kings gets about but I dont see investors into other Moroccan developments mentioning the King visited yet he is regularly at Saidia.

You keep claiming Saidia is nothingness - errrr its being built!

Have you yourself seen a map? Have you noticed how close Saidia is to Europe? Big clue that. People like the sheltered Med, they are used to it.

The Minister for Tourism expects 500000 visitors to Saidia pa by 2012. Go tell him you know better.

Anyway Big, no hard feelings, I love our little jousts.

Dogbox, if I were you, I would just say here that I took 1 week off and visited all Morocoo and now know everything about everything. This way your claims would become muuuuuuch more credible. The way you present things is like trying to sell a place on the mooon...

BigLog

You say you aren't surprised by how often the King visits Saidia. Surely that contradicts your logic that Saidia is a nothing place tucked away in an unwanted corner of Morocco?

You mention Agadir and Tangier as being among the 'best bits'. I don't know anyone that has been to Tangier, yourself excepted, that would consider it one of the best bits. Most just want to escape from it!

You really don't get it. Saidia town may be nothing, but Med Saidia development looks like being something a bit special. We are investing in what we expect the place to become, not what the neighbouring town currently is.

The beaches are not ready. However, just before you enter Med Saidia (from Saidia town) there are a few beach bars with nice strips of beach. It is very easy to visualise that extended (and improved upon) for the 7km or so of coastline at Med Saidia.

Biglog

Do you know the name of any French Banks that operate in Morocco and have a London branch?

Thanks from your good freind DB

Catara, BigLog

So you think Dogbox is ramping because he is so positive.
Well could you explain to me and others why, if you aren't purchasing property yourself in Saidia, that you spend so much time knocking the place?
What is your agenda?
Have you purchased somewhere else in Morocco and are now worried that due to new sites you won't see the returns you hoped for?
If you can't answer these questions then you can't expect to be taken seriously.*

*Not that I can take you seriously if you describe the beach as ordinary, I have visited, I thought it looked great even though no work had yet been done, and someone on the trip with us thought it was one of the best beaches she had ever seen in her life, I may not totally agree with that but it is far from ordinary and certainly better than the vast majority of beaches in Spain.

Dogbox:

HNY

Banque Populaire have a branch in the village of Saidia and are the only Moroccan bank with a London office. They are based at 38 Star Street, Paddington, London W2. Tel: 020 7258 0243 www.cpm.co.ma

It's a fairly straightfoward procedure to open an account. You will need to take along a passport and other ID to confirm your address. They will open an account there and then. You need to check opening times as they sometimes close early. I think their normal hours are something like 0930 to 1400.

Societe Generale are to open a branch in the Commercial Centre in Saidia and if you PM me with your email address, I can send you the application forms that I received from my agent.

Regards

What's your problem? Bad holidays? Did you quit smoking on New Year's Day and are now grumpy?

Anyway, you are somehow right, there are so many other interesting subjects in this forum.

I had a great time off thanks for asking, what is your problem with your constant bitching at Dogbox?

And I notice that you didn't bother to answer the questions, says it all really.

The fact that me and dogbox are having fun here creates an agenda for me??? I really could not care less about buying at Saidia or any other developments in Morocco or anywhere else ithe world in the year 2007, the year of real estate crash. I do not have money to waste.

But I shall gladly visit Saidia when it is ready, you guys made me curious.

Hi Catara

You'll be welcome to rent out my villa - overlooking golf course and with private pool. It will be ready in 2009 so we could discuss what's happened to prices then. Meanwhile it's all fairly pointless speculation. We're happy, you're happy, happy new year eh?

OK, sounds great. Hope everything is going to go well for your investment there.

Hello everyone,
I have read through quite a lot of the archives on this thread and have found it all very interesting, a lot of interesting debate. Currently I have "reserved" 2 apartments on the Greens development in Saidia and two apartments on the Magnum development. I am (one of those dreadful!!) investors who is looking to flip contracts and have some nice capital appreciation... anyone have any experience flipping contracts?

I have also got one apartment in the Les Palmiers development in Casablanca and three in Sunset Beach (penthouses) which is near there...

I am going on an inspection trip shortly and am interested in people's views on any of the developments near Casablanca..
Thanks

Wish I had the bottle you have!

Im too wary of putting too many eggs in one basket. What gives you so much confidence in one nation?

Casablanca I have no knowledge of, sorry.

Depends how much Tigress has to invest ..... Morocco could be under-represented

I've neither visited Casablanca nor considered any of the developments nearby.

Eye On The World have released some articles on Morocco. Fairly interesting, though not entirely accurate. Here's the links:

What difference a year makes (In Morocco)
www.eyeonworldwide.com/property-magazine/morocco-oneyearon.aspx

Moroccan Culture
www.eyeonworldwide.com/property-magazine/morocco-culture.aspx

Moroccon Economy
www.eyeonworldwide.com/property-magazine/morocco-economy.aspx

Employment in Morocco
www.eyeonworldwide.com/property-magazine/morocco-employment.aspx

Health and Beauty in Morocco
www.eyeonworldwide.com/property-magazine/morocco-health.aspx

Telecommunications in Morocco
www.eyeonworldwide.com/property-magazine/morocco-telecommunications.aspx

HI Soup Dragon,
Thanks for the articles... am going to go and read those.

As for eggs in one basket, yes, I am putting my eggs into Morocco, as I believe that in the longer term it will be sound. I know there are a lot of differing opinions on this matter, but I guess we all have to go with what we think is right for us.... my only slight concern is that I have property on the Magnum development which I think is completing too soon for there to be any real rental market for it... does anyone know about Magnum and have any opinions on it?

Thanks
Tigress

Rentals will be low at first for Magnum, but its a bonus for you that completion has been delayed. I think front line beach apartments will be very good for appeciation. Rational is:
1) Only front line beach properties available in Saidia. Very limited supply of property with unobstructed sea views will lead to very nice appreciation. Even those at the rear are good in terms of location - golf views and very close to beach.
2) Apartments are well spaced out. Probably the best in the resort on that basis. (Only two lines of apartments on plot.)
3) Sea view apartments will possibly be the best for in-season rentals. Your rental return should be very attractive further down the line. (Something you have pointed out to potential buyers when you come to sell - very soon if you are looking to flip.)

Hi to Magnum investers.

I put a deposit on a magnum 3 bed aptm in Nov 05 when they were selling like hot cakes. By early 06 there were only a few in block 11 then to my surprise a whole batch came back on at original prices - some 40% lower than RT2 that are selling well too. I am still surpised to see agents still marketing Magnum properties - are they coming back on the market? does anyone know why? Has anyone resold a property? if so why? did you get a return?

Cheers

DAILY MAIL - SUNDAY 15th

At last an article outlining the investment by Premiership footballers.

Good to see LeJardinDeFleur mentioned as the developer from which the 240 properties were purchased.

The article goes on to say the King is planning a Royal reception for the footballers this summer, a but vulgar Ill grant but publicity none the less that will underpin values going forward.

DAILY MAIL - SUNDAY 15th

At last an article outlining the investment by Premiership footballers.

Good to see LeJardinDeFleur mentioned as the developer from which the 240 properties were purchased.

The article goes on to say the King is planning a Royal reception for the footballers this summer, a but vulgar Ill grant but publicity none the less that will underpin values going forward.

The people who wrote those articles have no idea about Morocoo. I asked some questions to one of them and he did not have a clue.
They are just real estate agents.

TO BIGLOG et al:


For a log time you have critiscised investors for chooisng 'out of the way' Saidia, so now I wondered what you will make of my second Moroccan investment - Port Lixus on the Atlantic coast South of Tangier.

£75000 for a studio.

Who cares about your investments???

Biglog will logicallky ask you: did you see the location of the Port Lixus? And you will answer: no, I am not interested to see it because I just want to flip, as I also plan to do in Saidia.

And the rest of discussion will be very similar. Happy talking.

Some people go through life disinterested in investing others have an appetite. I guess anyone reading a property investment thread might have an interest?

The fact people discuss the merits or otherwise of a target can assist all of us with our decision making.

Where do you recommend Rondy?

I do not recommend anything.

As Dogbox says, to view this forum you must have an interest in it but no recommendations rondy..........??!!

Rondy

This is the first time EyeOnTheWord have tried to cover a country in such depth. Normally their articles are a bit better than this (I did say that it wasn't all that accurate.) I posted them as some people are interested to see what is written about where they are investing, even if the articles have a relatively small distribution list and aren't always accurate.

I have interest in following the discussion between dogbox and Biglog, it is quite funny.

I know I am joining this conversation late and I dont want to drag up "old news" BUT...

The Capital Gains tax in Morocco is 20%, they did knock about an idea of reducing the tax to zero after 10 years but have decided not to. This is not to say that they wont offer some sort of tax relief but at the moment its 20%. This is a shame as a lot of UK sellers have used this (legitimately) as a selling tool because that is what was promised, its one of those unfortunate instances where the government back tracks and there is nothing you can do about it.

I agree completely with Dogbox that Saidia is an excellent investment, the amount of money being pumped into this development is mind blowing. I have visited the site several times over the past 12 months and it is coming along nicely, the marina is complete (and sold out) landscaping is coming on, blocks are out of the ground and the whole development looks fantastic.

With regards to the rental figures, sorry Dogbox but you are way off, I hope you havent been told this by a reputable UK seller, if so, they should be strung up by the danglies! The market is new so it is difficult to put a figure on, estimates would be around £400-£500 PW for a two bed apartment, £800-£1100 for a 3 bed villa. Management & maintenance is envisaged to be around £120-£150 PM

There is a very realistic possibility of a growth of around 20% PA during the construction period (conservative) Many are projecting a 100% return in 5 years and I for one agree.

Later

Rob

Agree with you Robster - welcome to the forum.

CGT was always a red herring - its due in the UK even if it weren't in Morocco.

Thank you Soup, I am chuffed to bits that I have found this place. By far the most active property forum I have come across and some really healthy discussions. I am sure we can learn a lot from each other.

All the best

R

I was under the impression that cgt in morcco 20% upto 5 years 10% upto 10 years and zero after that.

That was the original plan Simon, many UK agents have used this as a USP, unfortunately this hasn't transpired and the current 20% CGT applies. This is not to say that they wont offer some sort of tax relief in the future, Morocco is spending a fortune attracting foreign investment and they need this sort of USP to attract the big hitters. Having said all this, once you repatriate your funds you will be taxed in the UK anyway so unless you leave your funds off shore it really doesn't make much difference.

A two bed linked villa with views across the lake and golf course for £160,000 is a good enough USP for me!

R

Just a few shots of the Saidia site for those interested

I'm underwhelmed.

Will they be knocking those buildings down to make way for the luxury villas?

I take it those pictures are a p*** take.

Surely that isnt the great Saidia. If it is I would make a quick exit now before you lose any more money. It looks very much like fourth rate Spanish development but unfortunately finding itself in a part of the World which is becoming increasingly dangerous and unstable in terms of being a long term holiday destination.

I am right in thinking that those tiny houses in front of that chemical spillage are local squats and not villas are'nt I? If not FFS take a step back and think about it.

Those buildings look awful. Bet the build quality is shocking. Sure looks it from a distance never mind up close. Very unimpressive.

As usual ignorant responses from those that must have previously swallowed the 'Bulgarian' dream bait. Here's a question; do you think La Manga Club is an ugly place? This is just a somewhat comparable to the Saidia concept. You'll also note these pictures were taken months ago and much work and finishing work continues on the apartments in the picutre which are AGREED the most unimaginative and 'drab' on the resort thanks to Fadesa. Property Logic, Tasa, Superior and others have had the correct vision to spend a bit more money and effort upfront on designs which will befit this unique resort.

All naysayers should really check out www.propertyshowrooms.com extensive saidia gallery they have on their site.

Its quite a frustration that the same drab photos keep surfacing. My freind took far better photos but I dont have the skill or inclination to load them up.

The appartments are the Fadesa built product which is by far the worse designed, so not representative.

Also Ive not seen any building site that looks good, Saidia is no exception.

The lake shown along with the many other water structures will be filled with fresh water once the green landscaping is complete.

Anyone with 1/2 a brain knows that even the most lovely house was once an unruly pile of concrete and mud.


ADI:
You know Spain isnt the be all and end all. Been there done that. Its not particularly magical or impressive. Spain has largely suceeded by virtue of the fact its close to the UK. N Morocco is just a few miles further south yet has vast unspoiled beaches. Add to that a bit of Moroccan inspired luxury real estate and hey presto you have a winning formula.

I like many others have tired of the crowded, East ender filled Spannish offerings all jostling for tenants.

Exactly what I was about to say Hobiekitten.

The Fadesa apartments shown in front of the lake are drab and unimaginative. One of the selling points of Saidia is the vast array of styles on offer, there are several developers involved in the project and this adds to its appeal. The Oasis development is far more attractive, lending more towards the traditional Moroccan architecture. The build to land ratio is very low.

The comments on these pictures amuse me, how on earth can a development be judged on pictures in its infancy? This shows an unbelievable lack of forsight, every development starts with a muddy field.

Anyway, I dont need to convince you that this is a good investment, this was not my intention. You carry on with your "safe" invetments and ill carry on making the money.

Later

R

Well said.

I got talking to a Jade Goody type the other day. This lady was typical of amateur 'investors' into Spain. She has absolutley not the first idea about investing, no comprehension that her property will be one amongst hundreds of thousands of others, no knowledge of timing. Her entire endeavour is based on nothing more than the fact people have made money in Spain in the past!!

She fails to understand all she will be doing is 'storing wealth' and possibly achive total returns just above inflation which she could have achieved by simply putting the same sum in a Bank account. Sigh

Sorry, but why do you bet the build quality is shocking What on earth are you basing these assumptions on? This a ridiculous comment and very offensive.

For those interested (if not, don't look, simple) one of the Oasis small villas complete.

R

I didnt go for Oasis. I preferred the look of WT2 LeJardinDeFleur, however Ive only seen drawings and CAD images. Is there a built example does anyone know?

Dogbox

LJDF & Oasis have proved to be the "hotspots" on Saidia, I am sure they will both be excellent investments.

R