Will do MMV. I'm having trouble sending it, but have E-mailed administrator with error message I get ("Sorry, you are not permitted to send an email via this board.") Hopefully you'll get it tomorrow.

Hi guys,
I am very bullish about Morocco and bought a 153 m2 penthouse frontline beach appartment in Sania Plage for Euro 257k last May. Its half way between Marina Smir and Maiina Kabilla on the med. I got so fired up when I visited that my girlfriend bought an appartment on the spot. And then I went and bought a 12 meter berth at Marina Smir for about Euro 37k .

The guys selling were MacAnthony Realty International (MRI). Their guys on the ground showed me their rental contracts ... rents go insane for July and August, even in appartments nowhere near the beach. Its wealthy Moroccans that rent here and its an established rental market. This might somewhat mininimize risk of terrorist attack, and also minimize the effect on rent if such a thing were to happen.

All good so far.

But MRI also sold me two appartments in Bansko in May even though I told them I will need rental income to fund them. They must have known then that there was a serious risk of over supply. They told be Bulgaria was the next best investment opertunity after Morocco. Makes me wonder about these guys.

Anyway, I'd be very keen to hear comments on my purchase(s).

And, where next? Berlin?



Hi guys,
I am very bullish about Morocco and bought a 153 m2 penthouse frontline beach appartment in Sania Plage for Euro 257k last May. Its half way between Marina Smir and Maiina Kabilla on the med. I got so fired up when I visited that my girlfriend bought an appartment on the spot. And then I went and bought a 12 meter berth at Marina Smir for about Euro 37k .

The guys selling were MacAnthony Realty International (MRI). Their guys on the ground showed me their rental contracts ... rents go insane for July and August, even in appartments nowhere near the beach. Its wealthy Moroccans that rent here and its an established rental market. This might somewhat mininimize risk of terrorist attack, and also minimize the effect on rent if such a thing were to happen.

All good so far.

But MRI also sold me two appartments in Bansko in May even though I told them I will need rental income to fund them. They must have known then that there was a serious risk of over supply. They told be Bulgaria was the next best investment opertunity after Morocco. Makes me wonder about these guys.

Anyway, I'd be very keen to hear comments on my purchase(s).

And, where next? Berlin?

MRI. The things I could tell you about MRI.

Ive done Morocco and Berlin recently.

Bulgaria doesnt do it for me. In terms of central Europe Slovenia seems good. It has a large middle class, lots of physical attributes, winter and summer rentals and seemingly not too much corruption. The population density is ok too.
Im also looking at North Wales commercial property.

Estonia is also on my scope (I was buying a farm but I withdrew) but location is much more important than is usual as the population density if 5 x less than Denmark so much of the land is worthless. Am considering a beach front appartment off - plan just outside Tallin for £60000, but rental ease is a concern.

A key issue that has taken shape in my mind is RENTAL FEASIBILITY. Its all very well buying an appartment in Budapest / Krakow et al but what if the tenant doesnt pay? Language and trust considerations then come to the fore when dealing with foreign letting agents.

One thing I always do is talk to lots of agents rather than relying on 1. Amazing what you distill by talking to 10 agents on one development.

Bansko is already way oversupplied and there are 3 hour long lines for the gondola. I went once there and will never go skking again in Bulgaria.

Bulgaria is already way too expensive. The Black Sea resorts are overfilled with properties and the resale market is completely dead. They same will be starting next year in Bansko, Pamporovo, etc.

About Morocco, I already said what I wanted to say in the other thread.

so where WOULD you buy?

Keep up Agtisch!

Catara has just told us on the Moroccan Property Hype forum that he's going to A Place in the Sun exhibition next week and is buying a property in Morocco for half the price that us suckers paid.

Then we can all go and do the same. Simple!!

That's a good question.

I would say that Cape Verde might be a good investment. They have beach front 1 bedroom apts. for £30000 and flights start to go there soon.

Also land in newly entered countries in EU (plus BUlgaria and Romania).

BUt the best bet would be in USA in about 3 years from now, if Pound remains strong.

For the moment I see no really good real estate investments as prices went up a lot everywhere around the world.

Besides, a 1bedroom apt. for rent in Spain can be found for £100/week. Same in Turkey, BUlgaria, France, etc. And the occupancy is the best at 40%-50%Why would one want to pay 100000 Euros which implies at least £300 mortgage per month plus the maintanance cost which goes in Spain at £80/month?



Why would I buy in Morocco? To be forced to go there because rentals won't be good and I need to use my house?

Of course they will not sell 1/2 price as long as people are still willing to pay full-price for rotten goods.

[quote name='catara' date='Sep 25 2006, 01:20 PM' post='455205']

I would say that Cape Verde might be a good investment. They have beach front 1 bedroom apts. for £30000 and flights start to go there soon.


Cape Verde was definitely third world, with dirt track roads and a non-existent health system three years ago. Prices have gone up over 300% since then due to plans to increase tourism (and rampant speculation).

Please tell me why it's such a good buy if Morocco isn't.

Sal Island has become very expensive.

Santo Antao or Maio or BOa VIsta are still acceptably priced.

You can find first line properties for 25000 Euros on those islands.

BUt of course one needs to go there before buying.

I said - it might be a good investment in Cape Verde. It might be just a waste of money...

I guess the development of infrastructure will be faster than in Morocoo because the distance are tiny on Cape Verde islands.

Cape Verde was one of the poorest nations on Earth and totaly aid dependant although this is changing.

I expect 3 years ago you would have critiscised early investors for thier madness just as you now do so for those entering the new Moroccan market.


I looked carefuly at CV but declined. The state is tiny and therefore easily overthrown. Corruption really is part of the fabric.
The land is almost all at sea level so rising levels due to global warming or just a freak surge were a worry for me.

I also could not find a large development with a CHOICE of letting agents, unlike Saidia so letting would be difficult.

CV is also twice the flight time of Morocco.


Budapest might be worth a look. £70000 will get you a bohemian city apartment with parking. No reason they wont be at London price levels in 15 years so a huge return possible (despite current political difficulties, life goes on).

Seems better value than Tallin or Lubjana.

3 years ago a 1 bedroom apt. in CV would have been 10000 Euros. This is about 1/2 of thye price of an acceptable new car. So no, who pays 10000 Euros for a front line apart. in a country which seems to be stable is not crazy.

What I criticize about Morocco is that, being an extremely poor, undeveloped and very risky country, it could still afford to ask 75000 Euros for a 1 bedroom apt. And this befiore making any effort to improve the infrastructure and to offer any assurance for the safety of the tourists.

[And this befiore making any effort to improve the infrastructure and to offer any assurance for the safety of the tourists.
[/quote]

Do you have some kind of agenda Catara?
Which country can offer assurances for the safety of tourists?
Bali?
New York?
London?

Go on then Tell me! Before I buy more stuff from them.

Thanks Dogbox. I'm looking at Cape Verde but feel its too late. Way too late. Germany looks better I think. Do you guys know of another Cape Verde which is 3 years behind so that we can get in at the bottom?

Hey, what do you guys thing of Shanghai? Guaranteed 7% rents for 5 years on UKP 100K apartments in Pudong. Need 44k cash to make it work. Hmm?

Jeez guys, if we could get high rents, we could leverage big time and make a fortune. Unless, of course, the rents dont materialize in which case we are seriously screwed.

Another one I thoroughly investigated was high rental yielding multi family housing in New York state. Yields of 50% and higher. There was mention of them in another thread somewhere but no comments in nearly a year. I followed these up and finally selected a property yielding 47% gross in Rockford, low crime area of city, looks in good nick etc. So I rang the estate agent and guess what he told me? DONT DO IT! He says it may be possible to make it work but I'd need to be there on the ground, and be prepared to spend much of my time in courts trying to evict tenants for failing to pay rent. real shame. Because if you feed 47% yield into da spreadsheet, it kinda goes WOW and you fall off your chair.

DreamWeaver. 47% sounds terrific, but when something sounds too good to be true it usualy is.

On Pudong, and China in general, I think a new law has been passed to stop foreign people buying over there. Think I read that in one of the property magazines last month. It mentioned that you could still buy by setting up your own Chinese company to acquire it.

The Chinese Government has created this law following concerns that the local population were being priced out of the market. Given this there is a good chance that they will be looking at ways to stop foreigners setting up companies for sole purpose of acquiring property. If you are going down this route it might be better to go for a property that is either complete or almost complete (limit time Govt has to stop your purchase.) I think there are still some apartments at G-bridge in Podong for sale. Comes with very long rental guarantee from Accord Hotels. (Percentage starts off good, but will be very small further down the lne when you consider your property has appreciated and your rental hasn't.)

Only other warning with China (I do like China as a long term investment) is that you are buying leasehold not freehold. Agents will tell you there is an expectation for the Govt to make leaseholds freehold. That has to a be a risk.

COMPARISON TO MY SAIDIA VILLA:



SAIDIA
£170000
Detached
3 championship courses
beach 7 km (total 29 km)
Olympic standard sports complex
Own pool
AC
Marina - Latest with 850 berths and port facilities
Decor - contemporary Moroccan



Lakeside Village in Quinta Do Lago Golf resort Portugal;

£720000
Terraced
1 championship course
No on site beach
Small gym
Own pool
AC
No marina
Decor - 1980s hotel chintz stylie with tie - back cutains and BRASS bits everywhere




Mwha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Thanks Dogbox for the comparison.

I take it you've been to the olympic complex. What's it like ??

And that marina, sounds lovely, any pictures ??

Finally, I never knew Morocco was reknowned for championship golf courses, please tell me more about the facilities........

Oh silly me, you're talking about something that is about 4+ years away.............

Can't wait to see the quality

If you go to www.weatheronline.co.uk and look at Oujda weather (i.e. more or less Saidia weather), you will see that the weather is very cold (almost 0 Celsius) during the winter and
is under 14C at night for 6 month/year.

So Saidia has at most a 6-7 month/season.

Canary Island and Egypt are much better as 12 month/season.

Well spotted Catara (wondered how long it'd take till someone spotted yet more of Dogbox's ignorance/ramping of the place).

Dogbox failed to pick that tiny detail out on his friend's DVD (still DB know's best, after all 60 Gucci shops can't be wrong, 10hotels, Olympic yada yada yada.......)

And looking again I realized that in July and August the temperature is 38-40 Celsius almost everyday.

Which really makes Saidia a 5 month season (April-June) and September-October.

Casablanca and Agadir have a much better climate, why didn't the KIng decide to build over there?

Catara, you're getting warmer and warmer every time !!

That's why Dogbox was very foolish to be 'saving' a few hundred pounds on an airline flight to just check out what he'd be getting before laying out his money.

Yet, I guess the Trump/Buffet modelling got the better of him !

Still he knows best.......


:

Thanks for website Catara.

Looking at daily max temperatures so far this year for Oujda (Oujda being in land without the sea breeze):

All temperatures are Centigrade.

Jan 10 to 19 degrees.
Feb 10 to 20 degrees
Mar 17 to 34 degrees.
Apr 13 to 29 degrees.
May 18 to 41 degrees.
Jun 23 to 37 degrees.
Jul 32 to 41 degrees.
Aug 28 to 41 degrees.
Sep 24 to 34 degrees.
Oct to date 24 to 40 degrees.

I'm shivvering just thinking about those ice cold temperatures. What a nightmare!

The weather in Saidia is NOT nice all year - that is FACT.

You also fail to mention the wind factor.

Basically, ask anyone round here and they'll tell you SAIDIA is only nice around August.......

Microclimate guys. A common feature of coastal locations


Yes Biglog its not built yet, thats why Im paying a lot less than the folk will once they can touch it, see it.

Investing is all about unknowns, it isnt a scientific formula you know otherwise every fund manager out there would always get good results

You sit it out on the sidelines while the adventurours amongst us suck and it and see.

Mankind has never progressed by sitting it out. People once laughed at others who claimed another continent existed in the West Atlantic.

Good job early UK pioneers didnt sit around WAITING FOR THINGS TO HAPPEN otherwise we would still be living in caves.




Jeeze, and there was I thinking Barcello and Hilton Hotels knew a bit about tourism.

Look at January 2006: most of the days had a maximum temperature of 14 Celsius and a minimum temperature of 4 Celsius. They even went to negatives.
Between November 2005 and March 2006 the minimum temperature was about 6-8 Celsius. This does not really make it veryy pleasant, is it?

In July and August 2006 the average maximum temperature was 38 Celsius which again does not make very pleasant.

Conclusion: the pleasant season is not more than 6 months.




BUt then I am asking again: why did they chose it the location there in Saidia? Just to get the money from people who do not do their research?
From my very little research, it seems that Atlantic Coast is much more pleasant...

My wife's from Oujda, and she knows exactly what the temperature is at Saidia.

Let's start telling it as it really is shall we ??

38, it was nearly this hot in the UK this year. With a sea breeze, some shade and a pool I'll cope. Much more pleasant than Dubai.

January 14c is wonderfull AND PERFECT GOLF TEMP

Catara, you are beginning to impress me.

I'm almost tempted to say you have hit the nail on the head.

ASK YOURSELVES ONE QUESTION - WHO IS INVESTING IN SAIDIA ??

ANS: GULLIBLE, GREEDY WESTERNERS

I never thought that the temperatures can go negative near Mediteranen in Morocco... Adding the windchill from the breeze, that can make the weather quite brutal.

Yee haa !!!

Keep going Catara !!

Saidia anyone ?

Are you saying that the Moroccans found a way to develop their undesireable areas with Westerners money? And they did not pursue the Atlantic Coast because that is anyway nice and
will develop naturally?

Why didn't they put this in the add for Saidia?

I'm going by max temperatures. Yes, it is colder in the evenings, but that's not a big concern. High season will last 3, maybe four months. Otherwise I'm looking for the golfing, conferencing and other sports facilities to kick in and provide rentals (attracting a different type of tourist from high season.)

I feel it'll be a 9 month season. 3 high season and 6 others. I feel there will be three months or so where rentals are poor. You feel rental season will be shorter and DogBox feels it will be longer. We all have our views.

38 degrees max temperature isn't bad. See breeze makes it feel a lot cooler. I know, I was there when max temperatures were that level.

How would you know ?

It might be. A 9 month season, with 3 full and 6 so-so might be the real story.

BUt then why not buying in Casablanca or Agadir where they might have a real 12 month season?

Now let me see......

Soupi - been here once (rose tints permenantly on),

Dogbox - permenantly glued to his armchair, does have a DVD player close by though.

Biglog - lives here, wife from region, invested in morocco (manufacturing), employs people, speaks language/understands culture.

Which one is most knowledgable ??

Oh, tricky one that !



Tops, Saidia is a 2-3month high season.

P.S. Why would I rent from you guys when there'll be so many similar villas and I can go and stay at a Hotel ?? But then again, why go to Saidia at all ??!!






BINGO !!

Why so personal Big Log??

If you don't want to invest in Saidia, then DON'T

I don't understand what your agenda is here, did you not manage to purchase when you could afford it and hope that by slagging the place off that you'll bring down prices.

There are an awful lot of mugs purchasing properties and investing in the place, if it so bad would they waste their money?

Sorry, don't seem to understand your point here ?

Mugs ??

BUt then what is a desirable area according to Moroccans proint of view? Marrakesh? Agadir?

Catara:- I considered the Atlantic coast. I visited sites running from Tangier down to Larache. The Atlantic side is windier and at the time of investing none of the other Plan Azzur projects had released prices. (I wasn't comfortable with risks - as I saw them - with other smaller developments.) I did like Port Lixus though. Was even tempted to pull out of Saidia and reserve there, but houses were too expensive. (At the time the cheapest houses were expected to be between 300k and 350k Euros. Don't think we know much more about prices even now.)

If I were to buy into a finished development on the coast in Morroco I'd either join DreamWeaver to East of Tangier or go towards Essaouira on Atlantic side. I haven't been to either Agadir or Casablanca, neither appeal. Much the same way that I would never have visited Saidia had I not become interested in investing abroad and firmly believe that this will be the pick of the 6 Plan Azzur resorts.

As for the 12 month thing, my opinion was that better to be on the Med with 9 month season than on Atlantic coast with 12 month season. 9 or 12 months doesn't really bother me. I'm sure you can see that from my viewpoint at least I think that there will be good or decent rentals for most of the year. I don't want to be paying £200k for a property that will only rent in summer months. It makes you too reliant on a good summer season. Just takes one problem that takes time to sort and you could greatly reduce your rental for the year.

BigLog, you said "Soupi - been here once (rose tints permanently on.)" Surely you can tell from my posts and knowledge that I travelled under my own steam to get sight of the real Morocco. How that makes me have "Rose tints permanently on" I'll never know.

Gavinm42 - thankyou for talking some sense.

Can the squabbling kids please only put useful facts on the forum. Yes the weather link was useful but hey guess what - i can look at it and make up my own mind how long the season is!

Agtisch, can you please post some pictures of the Saidia development? I would very much appreciate that.

BigLog vs DogBox

I get that BigLog understands the culture/people/business etc in Morocco. I am clear that he is by far the most knowledgeable on Morocco.

DogBox using a clinical eye has made a business descion based on global factors. in the calculation he has included the risk premium or in this case risk discount on prices compared to other countries.

If I am right after 20 pages on this forum the bears think its overpriced and bulls underpriced. No surprise then, the same as any marketplace.

Who is right? Well it will take some years yet to work that out. We can bicker on for years. The only thing that really is worth posting is facts. I myself have posted emotional points of view and that was a mistake.

I agree with agtisch. Lets try and play with facts.





You can register here for free and people often post latest pictures. Although once you have seen one building site you have seen them all!

http://www.eyeonworldwide.com/

On reference to the "mugs" comment, today I've been offered £30k more than I paid for my LJDF villa (after sales expenses). This is a fact. Given that I've only paid 20% so far, the 60% return on my investment feels quite good. Should I take it or continue to be a mug?

Catara: You're getting on my threpnies a tad, try and stop the sarky remarks.

So what? Ignore my messages as I shall ignore yours from now on.

Euroscooby,

I agree with you.

That is what I find so annoying about Dogbox's posts about Morocco, he doesn't know, but he posts as though he knows Morocco intimately. That is dangerous.

He posts as though Saidia is finished and the complex doesn't even exist yet.

He posts like he's been here and yet he's only seen it on a DVD. He claims coming here he would have only seen a building site, yet, it he had come here, he'd get first hand what the weather is really like here. You can't leave that to a 3rd party website.

I'll give you a personal example of me in the UK.

When I was in the UK, the first house ended up buying we viewed on a Sunday. Wife and I fell in love with the place. We went and saw it again on a weekday evening. Still loved it.

When we finally bought it, moved in and lived there, we learnt how busy the road got at 8am in the mornings. Traffic there was a nightmare.

How could I have possibly bought that house via a DVD from another country ??

NO WAY can Dogbox be talking sense.

And then what really got my goat, was the GLOATING. Claiming the neg-heads have got this one wrong (as if the final whistle has been blown and he's already profited £500k ??).

I've told him to come out here, he won't. No probs, but don't claim you know the place because you won't have a clue.

QUESTION to Dogbox, how near is the nearest Mosque to his house in Saidia ??




"offered" eh ?

Nice profit........

.....I'll tell you what, I'll 'offer' you £60k more........

BigLog,

I have been a regular reader and an occasional poster on this site, and thought it was about time to convey my thoughts on your posts. I wonder if you would be so kind as to answer this question for me.

How come you have chosen to move to Morocco and invest your money building a business there if it is indeed such a dreadful place? I assume that you are not stuck there against your own wishes?

I have read your previous posts saying that you are unwilling to share your experiences 'for free', but surely these opinions/experiences would only serve to add credibility to your arguments. Rather than saying 'I have my reasons which I am not disclosing' and then rubbishing Saidia, you could genuinely help people who are trying to make an informed purchase of a holiday home/investment property. Buyers in Saidia aren’t necessarily the exploitative opportunistic demons which you make them out to be - have you considered some may be priced out of other markets such as Spain/Portugal and are looking for a holiday property near the beach with a decent climate.

Your posts are currently serving only to create doubts in the minds of those purchasing, whilst offering absolutely no hard evidence to substantiate them. You are probably the person with the best personal experience of the place, but offer the least information. If it is such a genuinely dreadful place are you really going to be pleased when many lose substantial savings in the knowledge that you could have prevented this – If that is the case it really puts you in a negative light, and I would hope you prove me wrong.

If your experiences are worth sharing (and I am sure they are) then please do, otherwise you really are wasting a lot of peoples time, and causing a great deal of unnecessary stress to others.

Phatpawz,

I have never said that Saidia is a dreadful place. I have simply asked on many an occasion, what is so special about Saidia. I have been there, we went there on Holiday as we had heard a fair bit about the place (August 2005). To us it was nothing special, really we couldn't see what the fuss was about. Ate lots of sardines, there isn't anything to do there, that really was about it !

Let me stress that again. There isn't anything to do there. That was our experience, based on a holiday there for 2 weeks (we stayed in Saidia all that time, using the car to venture out approx 60kms).

I've continued to ask, what is the attraction, really to balance the ramping going on by Dogbox, who certainly comes across as someone who can take the ribbing. The only real reply I've received to date is that there is some snorkelling........

Where else have I rubbished the place ?? I told my wife about these threads ages ago (she is Moroccan), and the first thing she said was that it gets very cold in Saida. Catara seems to have come to this conclusion only recently.

My wife says people only go to Saidia during August and then it's empty. I asked her isn't it sunny thoughout the year, she said the water gets very cold and unsuitable for swimming. Her family is from Oujda.

All I've ever said to Dogbox is come over here and take a good look. Why bury your head in sand and convince yourself that you are right about something that you can't possibly know much about from a distance. How can you ramp a place you know nothing about ?

Does Dogbox, know the distance of the nearest Mosque to his villa ?? Simply saying this because they can be very noisy and wake you up in the middle of the night !

Does he know the year round temperature in Saidia ??

Does he have ANY idea what type of SUNSHINE it is over here (***** THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT QUESTION *****) ??

Does he know what the road system is like where his house is going to be ??

Does he *really* know what there is to do out here ??

Does he know the local culture/customs/mentality ??

Come out is what I say and take a look.

In actual fact you couldn't have been reading my posts that closely because I did say to Dogbox (and whoever), if you want to live here, your welcome, if you want to invest here, come on over.

But if you are just here to profit asap, flip, ramp etc etc, these people have enough problems and don't need foreigners to come over and add to them. They need helping, investing, educating, developing.

That is what I'm saying and I don't think I can be much clearer than that.

So, I'm sorry phatpawz, I think I've been far more responsible to the genuine people who really want to invest and spend their lives in Morocco than Dogbox has with his constant/persistant ramping and gloating (just look at the other MUG already claiming that he's made £30k on a bit of paper thanks to Morocco......).

I'm listing things you might want to find out about before you invest your hard earned cash. He is just saying how brilliant it is (note 'is' and remember he hasn't been here).

Finally, I did/do agree with Lina, that IN MY EXPERIENCE, with what I have been through over here, it would appear that the two places do seem to have some things in common, i.e. Pakistan (I told my wife this and her reply was "it's not as bad as that "! to which I'd agree that it probably isn't as bad as that).

Good Luck.

I can afford to keep one villa for my family and look forward to enjoying it in my not-so-distant retirement. The future value of it is irrelevant to me. The second villa was a stretch. I'm honestly thinking of selling because of the high level of risk involved. I respect both sides of the argument on Saidia, particularly as it is so hard to predict and, I hate to say it, but if I had never logged on to this forum I would have kept both villas! The offer I have received is real and I can accept it on Monday. I feel no need to explain this futher. Just to finish, I am not a mug and, although I appreciate that feelings can be strong on these forums, the personal nature of it all is a bit too much. Feel welcome to continue the insults - but I'll just watch from now on.