I think Enron was pretty big as well, but hey, what did they know !

I know all the designer shops you keep ranting about here in Morocco - yes, they'll all doing a roaring trade......

Maybe they're in it for the real long term. Maybe they are prepared to lose in Morocco to gain exposure and with other sites in other countries making handsome profits. Ask them.

My business is in Manufacturing, raw industry.

Regarding real investments, I could tell you that actually I am currently looking for a working business partner. $300,000 for 50% share, 10year business plan, been here 4 years already, sales growing nicely, profits circa $2.25m within 7-10 years, local market and exports.

Interested ??

Real business (i.e. factory, machines, workers, sales team etc), real product (physical), real customers (anyone with a roof over their head will have what I produce and need what I've got)

Real future.

No hype.

My company is already the biggest No.1 and only importer of said product. I've created the market, we're No.1 out here. Heck I've even been on the National TV, press and now I'm going to produce local and eventually export all over Africa.

It took 3 years of being here to sniff. That's why I keep asking you do you really know what you are doing ? I don't think you can see it because you've never even been here.

Mind you though, if you were interested in my real business, and I mean really interested, you'd have to get behind the 18th or so other really interested serious people who are already willing to chuck their money my way.

Regards.

Hi Big Log,

I know i said that things had gone a bit quite and then all of a sudden i come back from lunch and we have a full blown debate on our hands.

At the end of the day everyone has there own view which is the whole idea behind having this forum. The world would be a boring place if we were all the same.

Another point that nobody has mentioned yet is the 1200 affordable homes that Fadesa have to build over the next 5 years in the town of Saidia which will be for Key workers of the resort and will also be at a preset price of (please dont take this as an exact figure) 25,000€.

I can see that you are very passionate about Morocco Big Log and can also understand your concerns for the local people which really does impress me. I would really like it if you might send me a personal message on your real thoughts to the development in Morocco. I was in La Saidia on Friday and it was the first time that i have come through Oujda airport and seen military personel ( due to the kings visit ) He was supposed to be there on the Saturday but i understand that he actually arrived yesterday and there were thousands of people with flags along the streets and roads all the way from Oujda to Saidia.

It is very impotant for myself as an agent (to which i have never hidden the fact) to get the best overall view that i possible can. I promote this forum + channel 4, buying moroccan property and La Saidia/ Le Jardin de Fleur to all clients that i talk to and its great for them to get such a vast range of opinions.

Thanks,

Andy

Hi Andy,

I'm just passionately against property speculation - irrespective of Morocco, Dubai, UK or anywhere else.

I just do not believe it to be a legitimate, healthy form of investment.

It just messes things up.

It does nobody any favours longterm.

Not for us, not for the locals, not for our children, no-one.

Hi Soup Dragon,

I noticed your posting on the C4 forum with regards to getting direct contact with developers so here goes.

La Saidia.

www.fadesa.co.uk - contact details available on their website.
www.lejardindefleur.com - Property Logic - no contact details available on ewebsite but send me a pm and i will give it to you.
www.oasismorocco.com - Superior - contactdetails available on their website
www.grupotasa.com - Tasa - Good luck with this one as their website is in spanish but should be in English within the next 2 weeks.

Other projects

Emaar - http://www.emaar.com/morocco/ - Not released yet

Port Lixus - Thomas and Piron - www.port-lixus.com - Villas being released next month

Mogador - Thomas and Piron - www.mogadoressaouira.com - Not yet released

Mazagan - Kerzner - http://www.northpoint.co.za/newsite/mazagan/mazagan.htm - Not yet released

Thanks Andy

No problem, if you need any further info then please feel free to contact me directly.

Andy Welland
Overseas Property Manager
Property Showrooms
andy.welland@propertyshowrooms.com
Website: www.propertyshowrooms.com
Tel: +34 952 475 506 (Outside UK)
Tel: 0871 734 1851 (Within UK)
Fax: +34 952 917 461
E-Fax 0871 277 4725 (Within UK)

I also run my own business and employ people. I also invest in shares of real companies. Property investing for me is fun, but I do not underestimate the risks.

As to your opinions that it adds no value I know where you are comming from but on the other hand most (not all) other forms of investment dont really add value in the great scheme of things. I did just fine without a mobile phone and all the other gadgets that were supposed to give us more free time.

The opposite has actually been the outcome - life is now faster paced 'got to be now' and the amount of waste all this produces is frightening. I get untold amounts of CD updates that are then thrown away (plus all the packaging). Computers and phones are obsolete within 2 years - more waste, more mineral extraction, more money.

And who do you supposes mines the minerals for the chips and gagets? 8 year old boys in Angola working for a pittence 12 hours per day in very dangerous conditions.

Again, most indusrty and business has bad side - effects just as property does.

The junk debt - culture has largely been in response to the 'must have' culture. People must have that £3000 TV or trainers now no matter how much more debt and waste this creates, even though no of it is really needed.


I hope you will be sharing all your wealth and not paying the Moroccans the bare minimum.

I have a 2 bedroom, 2 bathroom garden apartment in Magnum Saidia, I was told by my agent (SaffronVilas) today that these are now selling for around 180K.

Does anybody have any idea of how realistic a price this is.

They also mentioned that the next price hike will be October when Ryan Air go public with their routes and Phase 1 is released.

I have also been told that with Magnum you can rent the property out yourself, you don't have to go via Fadesa and be limited to 3-4% return.

Hi, we have bought a two bedroomed two bathroom Magnum apartment, first floor apartment also with Saffron (who are excellent).

I was told by them and FADESA ( via email) that we can use the property however we wish, and we are not obilgated to take their 2% option. Our apartment has gone up £13,000 in two months since we signed our contracts.

£13,000 in two months. Wow. Are they actually selling at this new price or is that a "valuation"?

The price being asked at the moment for an apartment is £13000 more than we are paying.

I dont understand percentages/gains/projections etc we are buying simply because we love the place and will be hanging onto it for a good few years.

gavinm42,

To see how realistic that price (valuation) is, simple: advertise it for sale at that price and see how much interest you get.

[size=7]Morocco is at war with Western Sahara.

This is a risky place to put your money !!

12 Pages of pure property ramping......a fool and his money !!!!

No offence Dogbox, but I'm amazed that you have never even visited Morocco - your posts on here suggest an intimate knowledge of the country and property market's potential.

Remember too that flagship companies are often offered incentives to set up shop by developers. They have nothing to lose if it all goes wrong. To follow blindly in their footsteps may cost you dearly.

None taken!

Im not blind to the risks and I pondered all such questions prior to comitting.

Beleive me I look into just about every foreign real estate opportunity and there are always risks and complications. Even my Berlin adventure was full of negatives.

I learned a long time ago that if you dwell on every aspect of an investment you end up taliking yourself out of it. For a while I 'almost' invested in various nations but each time I held back at the last minute and each time I then lost out on easy and significant profits. For example 'Great Exuma' in the Bahamas I pulled out of only to then see my target investment grow from $140000 to $800000 in less than 3 years grrrrrrrrrrrrrr. I did'nt buy due to tidal surge worries and because the island was very very poor with no facilities. An absolute classic case of over analysing. This has happened several times.

The Moroccan property I secured now sells (and yes they really are selling) for £25000 more than I paid in the space of a few months.
The real question is not whether to buy but HOW MANY TO

This point is often raised but for me is almost irrelevant.

My freind reserved at the same time as me.
He insisted on a visit to Morocco. I advised him all he will see is a vast patch of scrub with a few cranes, however he persisted and went ahead.

Sure enough the trip didnt give him any information or illumination.

You know most people didnt B2L in the UK in the early nineties (even those that were in a position to), despite being surrounded by 'evidence' it was 'THE' investment play.

My best ever UK B2L I didnt view until after completion. It was in a town Id never been near.

I keep comming back to the point that any new investment, business idea or invention tends to have far more critics than admirers.
Almost no investment comes with a health check saying 'buy me, all the fundamentals stack up' or everyone would buy it so it would cease to be a worthwhile investment.

IRISH REALESTATE; 99% of us in the mid nineties said it would never take - off. I read many a bearish article saying the fundamentals dont stack - up and that the age old religious / national tensions meant investing was a non - starter. Also entry into the Euro was widely expected to ruin Irealnd. Another classic case of too much analyisation and too little common sense.

Morocco will produce spectaculour capital growth, guaranteed. The Spannish and UK base E/As have created an unstoppable boom (for now).

It's true what you say - you can over analyse anything and end up doing nothing. Best of luck in Morocco.

This is the ramping/hyping at it's worst.

Would you really listen to anyone saying that (talk about VI) and then pay him even more respect when he hasn't even been there.

Not everything is about balance sheets and calculations from a far away armchair.

You have to KNOW about what it is you are investing in.

And you don't.

I can *guarantee* you one thing - your calculations will not have covered everything and there will simply be many things you'll see that you will have never thought of nor could ever have calculated for. In other words, when you get out there, be very prepared for many surprises.

Big Log
I agree with a great deal of what you are saying - re. property speculation and its effects on the local economy (for good and ill) but the fact remains that tourism is the way forward chosen by the king and government. It's no use knocking Dogbox for not going out there, he's obviously done a lot of research and has chosen to buy there. Opening up a country to foreign 'investors' always entails a lot of people making a lot of money without adding any value to the country in the early stages - that's capitalism for you (it never was pretty!). Presumably the Moroccan elite looked at what has happened in places like Dubai and decided that was the way forward for Morocco. Tourism will create jobs, albeit not high-end jobs, but jobs nevertheless, and people like Dogbox are helping to bring in investment by spreading the word, like it or not.

I've also bought in Saidia (as only foreigners can, no Moroccans are allowed to). I visited and the site and area are stunning. I believe it will become the new Algarve in future years - with all that that entails - and look forward to many years of holidays there. When I visited, my agent said that lately most people he had shown around had been 'emotional purchasers' - those looking for a holiday home, but there will inevitably be many who see it just as an investment.

The success of Morocco's 2010 plan depends on foriegners buying the property and visiting in huge numbers, and to get people to buy the property and get the name known, prices had to be low by European standards, which means some foreigners who buy in the early stages will make a huge profit without risking a great deal. You may not approve, but that is the economics of the situation.

The Sunday Times ran an article today about the over supply in Bulgaria.

my concerns with Morocco, saida & the villas are:-

1) Eventual over supply - Will morocco turn into the next costa del sol / bulgaria with massive over supply of property and no hope of renting out property for more than a handful of weeks a year delivering a very poor return?

2) What planning regulations are being used to ensure the coast line isn't ruined from the massive developments that have been planned?

3) Size of resort - With 3000 accomodation units and 11 hotels, there could be 10,000 people in this resort at any one time. This resort may end up heaving with chavs. Will anyone wanting to hire a villa on a golf course really be interested in a holiday on a resort of this size? Surely people who seek such places, want to go on holiday to get away from the crowds and want to relax? Can you imagine how busy the golf courses will be? This makes me think that the resort will be too big and this will deter people from wanting to visit. Coupled with the amount of units available and the potential small demand, this development may not be the great investment that some have been predicting.

Having said all that, I am still thinking about buying a villa! at the current price they are competitive with other villas in portugal etc. From looking around at other villas for re- sale, ie not off plan, I think the value of the villas could reach £300k, depending on whether some of the points mentioned above materialise or not.

what do others think to my concerns?

Morning Tom, my input regards your concerns:

1) Oversupply is a long long way off. Morocco has vast swathes of prime beachfront land. The development compared to land available is tiny. I did not invest in Bulgaria as I forsaw oversupply becomming an issue as the season on the coast is too short. Having said that I spoke with a chap on Saturday who has made a huge return on some land he purchased for £10000 3 years ago which is now worth hundreds of thousands (developers want it).

2)PLANNING - this is a reason I invested. Unlike the Costas development has been planned by the Government and is generally limited to 3 stories maximum.

3) Size of Saidia resort - the fact its a large self - contained resort with far more facilities than is usual for a single resort, will mean it acts like a magnate. The hotels marketing machinery will further underpin demand.
I hope it wont attract the chav market and I dont think it will. Chavs like 'Bacon & Egg' cafes, and heaving Chareoke (sp!!) venus.
Saidia shops and restaurants have been aquired byquality operators so Chavs probably wont want to come.

Dont forget 60% of the land will be green and wooded. The fact its so large will mean users of the villas and appartments will find the seclusion and privacy they want and the beach is huge and will never be crowded.

3 championship courses plus a 7km beach is a pretty hefty propostion.

The long season, exotic culture, snow capped mountain ranges (in which luxury ski resorts are being built), deserts and endless beaches will make Morocco a real 'place to be seen' within 3 - 5 years.

For me personally Saidia is probably not really my scene. We like very quiet out of the way villas on remote islands, but we find we are in a minority! Not only that but such remote luxury places are too expensive so Saidia will be a good and cheaper alternative close to home.

But what if we count all the developments in Europe on the sea, we are talking massive over supply. Your rent in Morroco will have to compete with other rental places across Europe. I have seen this happen with an appartment my parents owned in Switzerland, to start with we had 26 weeks rent out of an all year round destination 10 years later it was only 6 weeks. The appartment was sold 15 years later with a loss.

I believe we are looking at a ********** and an even bigger crash in overseas holiday homes. I do not think Morroco will be spared. 3 countries arround the world have not gone mad in House price mania. Hong Kong, Germany & Japan, these will be spared. Good 8% yielders are available in Japan with 2% mortgages

However now people start to understand that bulgaria is over (this happened in a time frame of 3 years, spain took 25 years) all the agents move to market Morroco is the latest destination to make money. You can see the cycles are getting shorter, based upon the shortening of the cycles I expect Morroco to peak in 1-2 years. I'll bet it is a good destination now to buy and sell offplan.

I don't altogether agree that "Bulgaria is over". The Sunday Times article had a few home truths (weak rental demand and risk of oversupply), but it was very biased - it did not mention the positive impact EU membership is and will have, as well as when budget airlines start flying there (which is inevitable) - then independent travellers are more likely to visit which will help demand.

And even if rental demand remains weak (France and Spain holiday homes are classic examples of how widespread this is), I think there is less of a risk of a crash in Bulgaria because prices are still low. I am quite happy to keep the beach apartment I have in Bulgaria as a holiday home for my own personal use. But if I owned the same apartment in Spain (and costing 3 or 4 times more), then I would have to try and get rentals as I'd probably have to get a mortgage to pay for it. In Morocco, prices are higher than Bulgaria, even though its people are poorer. It also does not have the certainty of inward investment like Bulgaria has. So for me the risks of buying in Morocco are far greater.

A short term capital gain might be the best way to frame such investing.

In terms of rent you need to understand Saidia is not 'just another development', its something quite different so rentals are likely to reflect this.

I agree about the shortening timescales, Ive been aware of this for about 4 years. The US market is an example of short mega bursts. I beleive Germany and Morocco are next.

Despite some risk I do know people personally that have made a lot of money out of new markets, Bulgaria included.
I know a guy who buys and sells off - plan in Turkey and has made very substantial profits doing this the last 3 years with no end in sight just yet.

Just back from Morocco & thought I'd share some obervations I haven't seen mentioned in here on Saidia, Port Lixus and Paradise Beach & Golf Resort.

Port Lixus: This development is going to be impressive when it's complete, though that is some time off. They are focussing on Phase 1 (of 5.) This phase is scheduled to be complete by end of 2007 and will probably be the pick of the phases owing to its elevation (50 or 60 yards above sea level), slope (sea views) & proximity to beach. Villa price list should be released later this month. The person I met on site mentioned ranges that villa prices will fall in. (Furniture packs and some other minor details were being sorted before price released.) There will be 5 or 6 styels of villa and all will be modern looking. Show homes are being constructed, one for each style, and are at various stages of build. The cheaper 3 bedroom villas are beyond my budget and are likely to be between 400k Euros and 450k. The week before I arrived at the site an investor had booked up 7 or 8 of the very best plots for houses - so if you have been waiting for villa price lists to be released it may be worth getting in touch with them and reserving one of the better plots. When I was there there will still a few plots that were front line beach (or should I say front line cliff) as well as being front line golf. (Sea to the front, golf to the back.) Larache, which it neighbours, has a real buz to it and I'm sure it'll be cleaned up for the tourism that will follow. Asilah is nearby too - as others have said, it'll make a good day trip.

Paradise Beach & Golf Resort: Didn't really spend much time considering this one, though location and views will be good. They have a builder in place now (CDG) and you can purchase bank guarantee from Banco Populaire. Some points that would cause concern:- Most of the apartments are billed as having sea views. I doubt this will be the case. As simple experiment I stood well back from a hut where land around was gently sloping - typical of gradient on the site. I positioned myself so that I could see the sea when standing up (as if standing on patio outside apartment.) I then counted 24 strides to reach the back of the hut. Assuming the apartment blocks will be twice the height of the hut then you need at least 50 yards between apartment blocks to have any kind of sea view from ground floor. So probably best to go for penthouses. Additionally, the same builders are building behind the site. I'm told it will be villas for wealthy locals. I didn't look into this as decided not to progress with apartment or villa in this development.

That brings me to my favoured option, Saidia: I'm likely to follow through with purchase of villa in LJDF that I had reserved. There are however, some negatives with Saidia that I had not been aware of before visiting. Firstly, countryside around Saidia is rather bland and tourists hiring car for a week or two at a time might be alittle disappointed with what they see. I didn't travel the new coast road (my old map didn't show it) so its possible there are nice drives near Saidia, all I can confirm is that I took one route into Saidia and another out and on both routes had to be couple of hours drive away for scenery to be very interesting. Med Saidia is going to be impressive, but there is one or two pockets in the site that aren't. They are between AP-7 & RT-6 if you have the site plan. One pocket is existing housing stock. While not of qualiy that is to be built, these homes are not an eye soar. They will be/are ringed by high wall so even if grounds aren't as well kept as rest of site this shouldn't be a big problem. The second plot borders these houses and I'm told it is farmland that as yet Fadesa has been unable to acquire. There's nothing on this land at the moment, though it is being touted as possible location for King's Palace. (If land can't be acquired his palace will be 8km away at Cap d'Leau.) I believe that there will be an interesting announcement made soon about the two non championship courses, though I don't know what it will be so I can't share any more with you - I'm sure Andy will let us know when he hears more. Finally, Property Logic now have around 11 plots in Med Saidia. I was relieved to hear that none will have villa designs from LJDF - which should maintain the exclusivity that I hope LJDF villas will have.

The most pleasing thing about my 10 day trip to Morocco was the friendliness of people on the street. My view is that locals are embracing tourism and will make good hosts.

Cheers for your informative post Soupie. I know what you mean about the bland surrounding land. Having said that I find the interior of North Cornwall bland, but the coast more than makes up for it. Also destinations such as Lanzarote have seriously bland landscapes.

Out of interest, where you the chap that started the Estonia thread? If so what makes you switch to Morocco?

DogBox:- Yeh, blandness hasn't held Lanzarote and other similar resorts back. Only a small negative when site will have everything most holiday makers want.

I am interested in Estonia. Was originally looking to use my investment budget in 3 countries to spread the risk. Low risk would have been South of France, medium risk Estonia and medium to high risk Morocco. I'm comfortable enough with risk in Morocco and have decided to have large property in Morocco rather than small ones (one in France, one in Morocco.) Only question is if I should stretch myself and continue with investment in Estonia.

I've been in touch with Andy over last few weeks and hadn't mentioned which user I was on forum. Just had call to say I've been rumbled!

Any body thinking of buying off plan from dreamworld.com??? they are offering 2 bed, 2 bathroom apartments from 86k in a development called tanjah? Any advice as Im thinking of buying here as only 25% required and over 3 years to pay it....

Gazman: I was in Morocco a fortnight ago but unable to visit site as there was nobody over there yet to view. The way I see it is that area Tanjah is located already has good transport links and it is likely that the new Tangier airport will take budget flights in the future. This part of the Atlantic coast will have a number of developments being built over the coming years. The beaches are good and the Atlantic wasn't a problem. I like the look of Tanjah compared to PBGR. One thing I will add is not to believe some of the documentation you may see about Tanjah. I've seen some where they tell you it is next to the Princes's palace (he has dozens) and that plane's can not fly it. According to others I have met this is simply not true. The airport is nearby, so this could be a concern for you. Does look like it'll be a good resort though.

Gazman: When I responded last time I didn't think to add any obvious comments such as doing your due diligence checks. There have been one or two developments near Tanjah where monies have been taken before necessary permissions were in place. I think Royal Asilah is one and I'm conerned PBGR and possibly Tanjah may become another. I recently spoke to someone that is more knowledgeable on Moroccan developments than I. If I remember correctly he said that he had looked in to Tanjah and that some of the same people behind PBGR were behind this. Do do your due diligence checks and if you find you become uncomfortable with risk involved going with Tanjah then you may wish to consider a new development to East of Tangier that Fadesa have released recently. (Near Smir development .) Given Fadesa are 2nd biggest builders in Spain you will be reducing the risk that developer goes bust before your property is complete. Additionally, Fadesa are not taking 1st 20% installment till all permisions are in place. If what I've heard is correct then you simply pay a fully refundable deposit (probably about £2k) that will entitle you to one of the 1st picks of apartments at todays prices. Prices will almost certainly rise once all permissions are in place. It strikes me as a low risk option when compared to one or two others in Tangier region.

You have probably heard of what has happened with Royal Asilah and PBGR, but just in case:
Royal Asilah took monies before permissions were in place. They did not get planning permission for number of floors they wanted to build. Every block had to be reduced by one floor and those that had reserved penthouses lost out. I don't know details of how developers resolved matters with those that were buying penthouses. I believe one option they provided was to use monies they had paid to date towards purchasing a property at PBGR.
PBGR had advertised an all inlcusive price. Literature, and possibly contracts, indicated that there was no VAT payable by the buyer. A few weeks ago the developers realised that they, the developers, had to pay the VAT on new build property. They then decided that all buyers would need to pay a proportion of the VAT due (think it was half.)

If your heart is still set on Tanjah after all your due diligence checks then you may be able to agree that solicitors hold onto funds until they have sight of all permissions. I don't know if you will be able to get this into your contract, but if you do succeed it'll give you extra peace of mind.

Finally, information above may not be 100% accurate. Hopefuly others will be closer to the goings on in these developments and point out any inaccuracies. Good luck with your house hunting.

Thanks for the advice...

To be honest I think Tanjah is a resonable safe bet.... You only need pay 25% deposit over the three years. This can be divided into monthly payments, so 36 payments. Very small amounts of money compared to paying the deposit in one lump.

Also I believe you can pay via a bond. This means your money never leaves the UK until completion. Basically the bond acts as your contract for the 25%. This enables the developer to borrow money secure in the knowledge that on completion they have your deposit guaranteed. Seems one of the safest options I've seen to date? Anyone else considering Tanjah???

Im an investor. I initially liked the look of Tanjah but the exit route became an area of concern. I like to be able to sell when I see fit, however it became apparent this was not possible until the 25% had been paid in full.

I wasnt comfortable with this. Also Im bnot sure the developer had Bank guarantees. Like Soup Dragon I suggest you also consider the new Fadesa development near Tangier, as there is an immense amount of investor security afforded by dealing with such a large organisation. When it comes to resale during the pre completion phase this will make a sale easier.

Flipping properties in 3rd world countries ?? Call that investment ?

Shame on you.

I note that you started this thread full of enthusiasm for this development. Are you now going cold on the area

We must have crossed wires.

I am still proceeding with my investment into Saidia Morocco. The 'Tanjah' development is a completely separate small one - off.

Saidia remains the best investment in Morocco given its status and market position.

I suppose real investment would be manufacturing mobile phones?

Sell over priced gizmos with glitzy marketing aimed at vulnerable teenagers (and kids), convince them they cant live without them and then motivate them to upgrade regularly, afterall my life was such a misery before mobiles came along

Add the 8 year old orphans forced to mine metals 12 hrs per day in Angola (but 1 example) that make these oh so prescious phones.

How about car manufacturing, is that a worthy investment? Cause people to get into debt, devalue every day, pollute the atmoshpere, add to the bling bling culture, use up precious finite resources.

Clothes? Again the marketing machinery poisons the mind of people who cant afford a complete new wardrobe every season. Use virtual slave labour to make all the shite. Fly it round the world and pollute in the process.


How about Soya production? An area 6 x the size of Wales destroyed every year in the Amazon alone just so as greedy Humans have Soya to feed battery chickens.

What is your ultra - ethical Moroccan business venture by the way?

I can/could've bought many properties that you are eyeing in Saidia, putting deposits on several holdings, and ramping them in order to sell onto the next mug. But that's not my scene.

Funnily I've never analysed myself regarding my own business but now you mention it, yes you are right, it's a very ethical business I'm running - in Manufacturing.

But coming back to you and your examples above, your own idea of investment in Morocco isn't exactly lacking in bling bling, nor in exploitation either; 60 designer label shops (selling what we need ?), marina (for luxury boats that are needed are they ?), or playing on 3golf courses (more bling?) etc etc etc.

I think even you are beginning to wear thin of your own hype. You started this thread being very cagey about your intent in Saidia and slowly but eventually you've let the cat out of the bag about your real intentions over there (a place you have never set foot in - hyping a game you admit you don't play either (golf) !!!!!). Ever been on a boat ??

I look forward to seeing your face when you can't sell on your investment.

Flipping is an option that of late has become an attractive option. Not something Im definite on though. Its nice to have more than one exit route. I may just hold.

You state youve never analyised your own business. This conflicts with previous posts where you sought to impress stating how many 'grateful' morocans you employed, and how succesful you are.

I never said Saidia wasnt bling bling. I think it will be although it wont have the high rise chintz of Dubai.

So what if I dont play golf, that doesnt mean I cant recognise the demand 3 courses will draw.

Anyway, I note your'e very coy about your own business field

I dont take the moral high ground in terms of ethical added value. I do however object a little to those that claim it espcially as most dont deserve it.

Biglog? Whats youjr problem with property investment?? And why be on a property forum in the overseas section if you have no interest? Surely you could use your time more productivly?

Dogbox, you are right on having to complete the 25% before you can sell. Seems straight forward to me. The benefit is you don't need to use all your capital until its needed for the 25%. Meaning you can gain interest on the 25% deposit in your account rather than the developers.

Have you found any better developments/payment plans better in the North of Morroco? Please share if so, any web links???

I heard that TASSA (a Spannish developer) have a decent payment plan on thier Sadia appartments which are located just behind the beach front hotels. A very large swimming lake is being built which the appartments will surround. The prices from memory started at about £60000.

PM me and I will pass your details onto the developers agent.

Tanjah does seem an attractive prospect especially if it has a good developer behind it.



******************NEWS - Ive been asked to do an article for the Telegraph on Saidia. The journo indicated it will be published in the next few days. Never done anything like this before. Hopefuly she will not miss - quote me! Well cheasey pre - tan beach photo.

Why don't people on this forum talk properly ?

I don't have a problem with property investment - where did I say that ? I know lots of property developers. They buy land, create work/jobs, sell the property to people who need it and move on. I also know lots of people, buying land, building there homes and living in them.

I have a *BIG* problem with UK property 'investment' abroad - which is NOTHING more than bloating/creating a problem in someone else's back garden, for the sake of their own greed.

What Dogbox intends to do, as he as already mentioned elsewhere that Morocco isn't really his bag, is to hype up his plot and flog it on to the next mug, before he has to pay further installments on his 'investment' (probably doesn't have the entire funds hence why he is so keen on 'exit routes'). That, is not Property Development.

I'll explain again shall I. I stated that I don't go around analyising myself, but that now you mention it and now that I have, I notice that maybe I'm just too ethical/unselfish. I've analysed myself and yes, maybe I care more than the average Joe Bloggs about what I'm doing and how it affects and impacts others. So, yes, I'm not just here to make a quick buck.

What you are doing is selfish, made even more selfish by the fact that a) you have never even been here, and you admit that it isn't really your type of place.

BogLog: I don't think DogBox is looking to sell up before he completes. He is ofcourse keen to keep his options open and know that an exit route exists should he change his mind and wish to switch his interests elsewhere. This is something that most of us think about when considering opportunities abroad.

The Moroccan Government have opened the floodgates to foreign investment of this sort. They have decided this is the way forward for the Moroccan economy. As long as it makes financial sence to invest abroad then people like DogBox will consider it. You can point to cost of these properties and compare them to the average salary in Morocco. I can see that it will price this type of accomodation well outwith the means of most Moroccans, but ultimately the Government is increasing an industry which should improve the Moroccan economy in the medium to long term. If people like DogBox didn't take an interest then the King's plans would not succeed. As I think FWS or another member said on an earlier post, capitalism never was pretty.

Totally agree Soup Dragon. Investments work for both parties. Investers will only buy property if they believe it to be a good financial investment, whether it be long term rental yeild, or short term growth. Either way works for the King as it helps put money into the country as he tries to raise his economies financially. The country will be improved, new roads and trains creating better networking, companies will move into the country to operate whether its corporate or tourism, jobs will be created. Taxes will be paid back into the country helping it grow. Need I go on.....???

Im honest about what I do... Im not in it for anyone but myself and my future family. I'm buying property as an investment as I think Morroco will grow slowely and provide a better investment than here in the UK. I will keep my properties whilst acheiving my projected rental yeilds until I see fit to change my mind. As for now I'm investing in Morroco and I have no problem with others that do the same. I think somewhere along the line you have got personal 'Big Log'? If you think the big developers are there for the good of you and not for profit then I believe you're very mistaken.... Having said that I think everyone is a winner right now. Farmers are selling fields off for 10 or even 20 times what they were worth only 6 years ago...

Mate, Ive just re - read all your posts including the above. I like the 'you'd have to get behind the 18th or so other really interested serious people who are already willing to chuck thier money my way'!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I wish you well, and recognise you would like me to fail and consider me a vampire.

Let me say I do not seek to build modest wealth for its own sake, but simply so I can be free to do exactly what I want with my life as Im very aware the average person lives about 29000 days and c9500 of those are spent asleep.
It pains me that I cant spent a lot more time with my kids (even though I see more of them than most Dads I know). I built a business which took years to get where I am, and now I seek methods of wealth building that take as little time as possible.

Your opinion is that I am mad to invest in Morocco. I think youve got it wrong and you will see that Saidia will soon become a world class prominent destination.

BTW - are you Jarvis Cocker? (he doesnt like to swim in the sea either)

GASMAN. Sounds like our reasons for investing abroad are similar. We think we can get better return from housing abroad than back here. Free income also higher now than it is likely to be with family.

Site beneath might be of interest to you. It has more on problems with Royal Asilah and PBGR (which may also apply to Tanjah if indeed people behind it are the same.) Might be worth speaking to some agents that are active in Morocco but aren't selling Tanjah, Royal Asilah or PBGR. They will probably be able to give you more accurate information than myself or most of the posters found in forums. With no vested interest in these developments they will be frank with you about them.

Link beneath also has breaking news on rental with Tanjah. I don't have a good vibe about Tanjah, but won't mention that again unless prompted (I know I must sound like abroken record.)

http://www.buyingmoroccanproperty.com/foru...18bf8e3006c3796

Just got my contract through for LJDF - looks like I've got almost all the clauses included that I wanted. Its quite some time since I reserved, but looks like I'm finally ready to sign.

I don' t consider you mad Dogbox, I welcome you with open arms. I'm saying don't flip. come here because you want to live here, not because you want to make a fast buck in property speculation.

I don't think I can be any clearer than that.

I have recently reserved an apartment at LJDF.I understand there is no bank gaurantee and i have read on other forums that property logic are very strong and have not had to borrow money in order to finance the project. i also understand that they have been given another 5-10 projects on saidia. what worries me is that they will be working on most projects simultaniously. where will the money come from for the further projects. are they spreading themselves a bit thin. if they are then there is a possibility they could go bust and we could all lose our money. i may be a bit paranoid but this is my 1st investment abroad and i cannot afford to lose 40%.Also if tanja have already agreed a 10% rental on the site and they are at the same stage as ljdf ie none have started construction then why has nothing been agreed on for ljdf especially as it is a more upscale project.

any views would be greatfully recieved.

10% RENTAL GUARANTEE - alarm bells!

I belong to an online foreign property investment letter and one of the most common areas of complaint surrounds rental guarantees. Any developer offering 10% is either mad, thick or a crook.

Imagine you were a developer - how on Earth would you arrive at a figure of 10%, especially in an untested new market?

Possibly the property is priced such that the developer is able to give back the excess to the buyers and label it a rent guarantee.

If you take 'Fadesa's' (second largest Spanish developer) rental guarantees on thier Saidia properties you will see they are set at about 2 - 3%. They are a reputable developer who cant afford to make mistakes so I suggest 2 - 3% is an honest realistic guarantee and anyone offering more should be viewed with great suspiscion.

As for LJDF Bank guarantees I raised this with them a long time ago and got nowhere. The more of us raise it the better. They say this of late '90% of stock is reserved so we dont see the problem'. They also say BGs arent applicable in Morocco but this to my mind is not the issue. Other developers offer to assign land deeds upon payment of 40% such that where a developer goes bust at least the buyer ownes the land.

Playa Vistas a total mess.

Avoid, Avoid, Avoid.

Had an email re Saidia offering me free this and that if i reserved at some stupid low price.