I’ve read this thread with great interest – I’d just like to add a few points which I hope are of use…
Makler (estate agent) fees can and should be negotiated down - be prepared to get tough and haggle when buying through a Makler because in my own personal experience they do very little for their extortionate rates of commission!
Watch out for capital gains tax if you’re thinking of holding assets for the short term – or at least factor CGT in when looking at potential returns.
And finally, in reply to the earlier mention in this thread of a landlord’s responsibilities - try and view a few sample rental contracts to get an idea of how much should be written in to protect yourself…you’d be surprised! For example, I was advised to include specific reference to snow clearing duties and that it was (luckily) up to my tenants to make sure the paths round the property were clear. Good as I didn’t fancy hopping on a plane every time there was a snow flurry in Frankfurt.
Full Version: Germany Property Investment
Thought you might be interested in my experience investing in German property.
I completed in June and to be honest there is a lot of red tape involved. Ive found it more onerous than the British system.
Also I still get correspondance relating to the purchase almost every month and this all has to be translated at a cost (software is no good for table form Bank letters for example and even ordinary letters translate into nonsense).
Ive now switched tack as far as Germany goes, in favour of indirect investing via shares in UK companies involved in German real estate aquisition and in particular retail property as the consensus appears to be that this offers the best prospects.
test
QUOTE(dogbox @ Nov 8 2006, 10:54 AM) [snapback]483716[/snapback]
Thought you might be interested in my experience investing in German property.
I completed in June and to be honest there is a lot of red tape involved. Ive found it more onerous than the British system.
Also I still get correspondance relating to the purchase almost every month and this all has to be translated at a cost (software is no good for table form Bank letters for example and even ordinary letters translate into nonsense).
Ive now switched tack as far as Germany goes, in favour of indirect investing via shares in UK companies involved in German real estate aquisition and in particular retail property as the consensus appears to be that this offers the best prospects.
Hi Dogbox,
I am also looking to invest in Berlin/Germany and I've come to the conclusion it might be preferable to do it via a fund.
Which UK companies are you investing in?
I am also contemplating using some SIPP money, which would mean finding a Berlin/German Property REIT or Property Unit Trust.
Do you or anybody out there know of any suitable REITs or PUTs? I've searched and I can't find any.
Thanks, SB.
I used to work for a company that was promoting German property. Needless to say the sales were few and far between.
My conclusion on the German property market is that the only investors who are buying there are big property and investment funds. This has been the case in Germany for years now. Although property appears to be cheap there isn't much scope for capital growth until the mentality of the German population changes.
Even now, although the German business sentiment is meant to be at an all time high since reunification, the average German on the streets of Berlin will look at their own economy with doom and gloom. The estate agents in Berlin almost can't even be bothered to go out and show you available properties. A friend of mine is renting a 1 bed apartment in the center of Berlin, fully furnished with all bills included for €400 per month. Why should people buy when a mortgage would cost them more?
As a non-resident you will find it near enough impossible to get a mortgage in Germany, and even if you can the rates are ridiculously high compared to other Euro-zone countries. Although Germany is going through financial liberalisation presently (similar to UK in early 80s), the effects will take time to filter through.
There will be capital growth but not for a long long time.
My conclusion on the German property market is that the only investors who are buying there are big property and investment funds. This has been the case in Germany for years now. Although property appears to be cheap there isn't much scope for capital growth until the mentality of the German population changes.
Even now, although the German business sentiment is meant to be at an all time high since reunification, the average German on the streets of Berlin will look at their own economy with doom and gloom. The estate agents in Berlin almost can't even be bothered to go out and show you available properties. A friend of mine is renting a 1 bed apartment in the center of Berlin, fully furnished with all bills included for €400 per month. Why should people buy when a mortgage would cost them more?
As a non-resident you will find it near enough impossible to get a mortgage in Germany, and even if you can the rates are ridiculously high compared to other Euro-zone countries. Although Germany is going through financial liberalisation presently (similar to UK in early 80s), the effects will take time to filter through.
There will be capital growth but not for a long long time.
QUOTE(SlimBoy @ Nov 9 2006, 11:35 AM) [snapback]484534[/snapback]
Hi Dogbox,
I am also looking to invest in Berlin/Germany and I've come to the conclusion it might be preferable to do it via a fund.
Which UK companies are you investing in?
I am also contemplating using some SIPP money, which would mean finding a Berlin/German Property REIT or Property Unit Trust.
Do you or anybody out there know of any suitable REITs or PUTs? I've searched and I can't find any.
Thanks, SB.
SB here are 3 funds Ive invested in:
Speymill Deutsche, run by Jim Mellon
Dawnayday Treveria http://www.treveria.com
Kenmore (German expansion is underway via its new fund the 'Kenmore European Industrial fund')
Others I missed as they were heavily oversubscribed.
QUOTE(The wise one @ Nov 17 2006, 04:01 PM) [snapback]490729[/snapback]
I used to work for a company that was promoting German property. Needless to say the sales were few and far between.
My conclusion on the German property market is that the only investors who are buying there are big property and investment funds. This has been the case in Germany for years now. Although property appears to be cheap there isn't much scope for capital growth until the mentality of the German population changes.
Even now, although the German business sentiment is meant to be at an all time high since reunification, the average German on the streets of Berlin will look at their own economy with doom and gloom. The estate agents in Berlin almost can't even be bothered to go out and show you available properties. A friend of mine is renting a 1 bed apartment in the center of Berlin, fully furnished with all bills included for €400 per month. Why should people buy when a mortgage would cost them more?
As a non-resident you will find it near enough impossible to get a mortgage in Germany, and even if you can the rates are ridiculously high compared to other Euro-zone countries. Although Germany is going through financial liberalisation presently (similar to UK in early 80s), the effects will take time to filter through.
There will be capital growth but not for a long long time.
The point about investing for me is to safeguard capital whilst at the same time receive a reasonable yield AND have good potential for upside.
Germany is a safe place to invest and the long property slide means prices have bottomed.
Even if it doesnt boom my capital is still safe and yield is reasonable, BUT IT MIGHT BOOM, so I get safety plus big potential.
To me Germany represents that rare investment cocktail. Little risk, but big potential upside so may as well be invested, nothing to loose, lots to gain.
Ive found many examples of poor sentiment as pointed out by you above, however it doesnt take much for sentiment to reverse. In the UK in the early nineties just about everyone had no faith in property as an investment vehicle. You couldnt give appartments away here. Some studios were only £19000. My own Brother 'threw in the keys' on one of these. Now those same studio appartments fetch £110000 and they are grotty.
Likewise in my hometown in Herts many shopd were empty and buyers simply were'nt interested.
Now just over a decade later those same shops are virtually impossible to buy.
Sentiment is everything.
The Germans are now turning thier backs on Pensions just as we did and employers are closing them down just as ours have. This together with financial deregulation will be two key drivers.
One property I viewed in Berlin had dropped in value by 75% since 1997. I saw the 1997 price paid on a land registry document. The property was a repossesion.
OTHER SIGNS - An article in the FT recently revealed unemployment in Eastern cities was falling, indeed Dredens unemployment is now lower than Colognes at 3.8%. Employers are drawn to the East as costs are a lot lower.
Spannish property agents are reporting a big upsurge in demand from Germans. This is an important sign. It might portend re - discovered confidence.
Im confident that in 10 years time East Germany will feel totally different.
My brother in the early nineties felt property prices would never recover which is why he gave it away for £19000.
Sentiment must not be under estimated.
You have to be at the party to stand a chance of getting laid
I am putting together a German property fund. PM me if you are interested, and I will send the information memorandum.
Here is some background information:
Here is some background information:
QUOTE
The German property market has missed out on the property boom in other countries in recent years. This is down to a number of factors, including a low ownership quote and restrictive bank lending criteria. In addition, Germans are weary of property investment, because stories abound about investors getting burnt in a boom during the 1990s.
Boom in off-plan property in the 1990s:
There was a bubble in the 1990s in the market sector for new-built apartments. This occurred on the back of German re-unification and tax incentives, in particular in Berlin and Brandenburg in anticipation of the move of the German capital from Bonn to Berlin. Prices paid for new-built apartments even of average attractiveness reached up to €3,000 per square metre.
Market Situation:
As a result of the 1990s boom, there is still an oversupply of property, especially in Berlin, and rents have stayed behind the expectations of those investors back in the 1990s. However, despite the oversupply, apartments built in the 1990s are usually well rentable because of their quality, just not at the rents anticipated by the 1990s investors. Achievable rent in this type of property is about €5-6/sqm, translating into a gross yield of 8% if property is acquired at €750-900/sqm. After many years of falls, rents are now stabilising in Berlin at around the €5.5 mark on average.
Many of the original off-plan investors financed their acquisitions with mortgages and have been unable to cope with the resulting negative cash flow. The achievable market rents did not cover the interest for the loans taken out to fund the purchase price which what was often more than twice of today’s market price.
As a result, many of these properties have been and are being reposessed and are sold off at court auctions. The German repossession system is very arcane, and buyers at these are scarce. If potential buyers are present, they tend to be very restrictive in their bidding, thus avoiding driving up prices to levels where a reaosnable yield is not achieved.
Market Outlook
The oversupply of property that followed the end of the 1990s boom has led to a dramatic decline in construction of new domestic dwellings.
The property market in Berlin should benefit over the next few years from a number of factors, including:
Boom in off-plan property in the 1990s:
There was a bubble in the 1990s in the market sector for new-built apartments. This occurred on the back of German re-unification and tax incentives, in particular in Berlin and Brandenburg in anticipation of the move of the German capital from Bonn to Berlin. Prices paid for new-built apartments even of average attractiveness reached up to €3,000 per square metre.
Market Situation:
As a result of the 1990s boom, there is still an oversupply of property, especially in Berlin, and rents have stayed behind the expectations of those investors back in the 1990s. However, despite the oversupply, apartments built in the 1990s are usually well rentable because of their quality, just not at the rents anticipated by the 1990s investors. Achievable rent in this type of property is about €5-6/sqm, translating into a gross yield of 8% if property is acquired at €750-900/sqm. After many years of falls, rents are now stabilising in Berlin at around the €5.5 mark on average.
Many of the original off-plan investors financed their acquisitions with mortgages and have been unable to cope with the resulting negative cash flow. The achievable market rents did not cover the interest for the loans taken out to fund the purchase price which what was often more than twice of today’s market price.
As a result, many of these properties have been and are being reposessed and are sold off at court auctions. The German repossession system is very arcane, and buyers at these are scarce. If potential buyers are present, they tend to be very restrictive in their bidding, thus avoiding driving up prices to levels where a reaosnable yield is not achieved.
Market Outlook
The oversupply of property that followed the end of the 1990s boom has led to a dramatic decline in construction of new domestic dwellings.
The property market in Berlin should benefit over the next few years from a number of factors, including:
- a general recovery in the German economy
- an increased attractiveness of Berlin as a corporate base due to lower costs compared to other centres such as Frankfurt and Munich
- population increase in the greater Berlin area due to influx from the outlying rural areas, in line with the general global trend towards urbanisation
- increased foreign investor interest in the German property market due to unattractive yields in other countries such as the UK
- a trend towards increased home ownership in Germany
Also... check out these sites sent to me by a friend in Frankfurt
http://www.allianz.com/azcom/dp/cda/0,,1157231-44,00.html
http://www.allianz.com/azcom/dp/cda/0,,103123-44,00.html
http://www.allianz.com/azcom/dp/cda/0,,1157231-44,00.html
http://www.allianz.com/azcom/dp/cda/0,,103123-44,00.html
QUOTE(jeremy fisher @ Jan 31 2006, 01:06 PM) [snapback]287320[/snapback]
QUOTE(The wise one @ Nov 17 2006, 04:01 PM) [snapback]490729[/snapback]
I used to work for a company that was promoting German property. Needless to say the sales were few and far between.
My conclusion on the German property market is that the only investors who are buying there are big property and investment funds. This has been the case in Germany for years now. Although property appears to be cheap there isn't much scope for capital growth until the mentality of the German population changes.
Even now, although the German business sentiment is meant to be at an all time high since reunification, the average German on the streets of Berlin will look at their own economy with doom and gloom. The estate agents in Berlin almost can't even be bothered to go out and show you available properties. A friend of mine is renting a 1 bed apartment in the center of Berlin, fully furnished with all bills included for €400 per month. Why should people buy when a mortgage would cost them more?
As a non-resident you will find it near enough impossible to get a mortgage in Germany, and even if you can the rates are ridiculously high compared to other Euro-zone countries. Although Germany is going through financial liberalisation presently (similar to UK in early 80s), the effects will take time to filter through.
There will be capital growth but not for a long long time.
I disagree. I am non-resident and found it is possible to get mortage, I got a fix for 10 years at 4.15%. Plus there are good yields out there of 8-10% that shows clearly that buying is cheaper than renting. All market have their swings this one has just hit bottom and is rising.
QUOTE(Bubble Pricker @ Nov 19 2006, 01:04 PM) [snapback]491569[/snapback]
I am putting together a German property fund. PM me if you are interested, and I will send the information memorandum.
Here is some background information:
Hi Bubble Pricker,
This is my first post so I hope it's OK - if not bear with me.....
Where did the background information you quote in your post come from or is it your opinion. One of my main concerns about investing in Berlin is the apparent oversupply of apartments - I have seen a figure of 100,000 empty flats being quoted. It could take a long time to fill these buildings and I could see that rent rises and capital appreciation won't be high until they are.
Also, is the oversupply in certain areas where no-one wants to live anyway. Is it the case that occupancy and, consequently, demand, are higher in the "established" areas (thinking Charlottenburg) and the up and coming areas Kreuzberg, Mitte and Friedrichshain.
Cheers,
Joe.
QUOTE(joe90 @ Nov 22 2006, 09:44 AM) [snapback]493688[/snapback]
Hi Bubble Pricker,
This is my first post so I hope it's OK - if not bear with me.....
Where did the background information you quote in your post come from or is it your opinion. One of my main concerns about investing in Berlin is the apparent oversupply of apartments - I have seen a figure of 100,000 empty flats being quoted. It could take a long time to fill these buildings and I could see that rent rises and capital appreciation won't be high until they are.
Also, is the oversupply in certain areas where no-one wants to live anyway. Is it the case that occupancy and, consequently, demand, are higher in the "established" areas (thinking Charlottenburg) and the up and coming areas Kreuzberg, Mitte and Friedrichshain.
Cheers,
Joe.
Ive purchased in Berlin directly and also via shares in 3 different UK property companies.
I deliberatley set out to get exposure to the commercial sector as I felt this had much better prospects (once a high street is sold out, a new one isnt easy to build, in fact lack of prime space usually means its impossible).
The property I purchased directly has a small residence on the land, but the key driver for me was the fact it has planning for shops on the ground floor with either offices or appartments above.
Certainly 2 out of the three companies I have bought shares in focus entirely on commercial and in particular retail capacity.
If you think about the UK retail supply, much of the prime stuff is owned by professional property companies, professional investors and fund managers - this is no accident.
My two penneth
Thanks dogbox,
Don't worry about it being your two penneth, it was just nice to get a reply from someone.
I hadn't considered commercial property - I have been interested in property for years but never had the opportunity to have a go due to other comittments. I'm now in a situation to get started but, as BTL is more understandable, I had not given much thought to other options. Maybe I should be giving commercial a little investigation.
On my original subject I have just read an article (quoted in full from "Property On Sunday" which I assume is the supplement in the Mail although I can't find it on their site) which claims that there is a property shortage in Berlin and then goes onto quote a Berlin property expert who says that there are 100,000 apartments empty. Are these empty flats/houses in dodgy districts and in the nicer areas there is a shortage.
Also, what's happening with Berlin's population - is it rising, falling or staying put?
Any thoughts anyone?
BTW has anyone seen anything about prices moving in Berlin/Germany in general?
Cheers,
Joe.
Don't worry about it being your two penneth, it was just nice to get a reply from someone.
I hadn't considered commercial property - I have been interested in property for years but never had the opportunity to have a go due to other comittments. I'm now in a situation to get started but, as BTL is more understandable, I had not given much thought to other options. Maybe I should be giving commercial a little investigation.
On my original subject I have just read an article (quoted in full from "Property On Sunday" which I assume is the supplement in the Mail although I can't find it on their site) which claims that there is a property shortage in Berlin and then goes onto quote a Berlin property expert who says that there are 100,000 apartments empty. Are these empty flats/houses in dodgy districts and in the nicer areas there is a shortage.
Also, what's happening with Berlin's population - is it rising, falling or staying put?
Any thoughts anyone?
BTW has anyone seen anything about prices moving in Berlin/Germany in general?
Cheers,
Joe.
QUOTE(joe90 @ Nov 28 2006, 10:55 PM) [snapback]498342[/snapback]
Thanks dogbox,
Don't worry about it being your two penneth, it was just nice to get a reply from someone.
I hadn't considered commercial property - I have been interested in property for years but never had the opportunity to have a go due to other comittments. I'm now in a situation to get started but, as BTL is more understandable, I had not given much thought to other options. Maybe I should be giving commercial a little investigation.
On my original subject I have just read an article (quoted in full from "Property On Sunday" which I assume is the supplement in the Mail although I can't find it on their site) which claims that there is a property shortage in Berlin and then goes onto quote a Berlin property expert who says that there are 100,000 apartments empty. Are these empty flats/houses in dodgy districts and in the nicer areas there is a shortage.
Also, what's happening with Berlin's population - is it rising, falling or staying put?
Any thoughts anyone?
BTW has anyone seen anything about prices moving in Berlin/Germany in general?
Cheers,
Joe.
Joe
I saw many empty derilict buildings, depressing hangovers from the communist area. They are being renovated and turned into trendy blocks however, but unrenovated no one wants to live in them.
Think early nineties Manchester. Remember all the pundits who said Northern Cities would become ghost towns? You get exactly the same personality type saying this of E German cities but they are wrong and have no vision.
Dresden for the fIrst time has reported unemployment less tahn Colognes - this is the trend IMO.
Many UK property firms are investing in commerical as they are easier to manage and supply is restricted.
Id recommend you see the website of one such Brittish fund http://www.treveria.com
Note some of the big old established investment firms that have been aquiring significant share in the last few weeks (see the news section)
A fund like this is also aiming for 85% gearing which gives me the kind of levereged investment exposure I seek.
Joe, that's right... official local sources estimate over 100,000 empty flats in Berlin, about 8% of all properties in the city. In general, there's definitely no shortage. But, there are quite a few areas where there's almost no vacancy and anything in half decent condition is rented immediately. I've got a couple of units tenants vacated recently, and can't/don't want to rent them out now, since I'm renovating the entire block (bank forced me as condition for a mortgage though in fact it's in quite ok shape...but that's another story) and have had a dozen people wanting to rent the units even though I'm obviously not advertising them anywhere for rental. So, as ever, area really matters. In less popular areas there's very high vacancy, and will never decrease I think... places where people just don't want to live unless they absolutely have to. Marzahn and Neukoelln for example.
Someone here asked about Leipzig... I've been spending quite some time there lately, looking for property. It's much much more tricky to rent flats there compared to Berlin. 1. Leipzig tenants are extremely picky - they can afford to as vacancy numbers are higher - anything in less than very good condition and all renovated is impossible to rent - even in really good areas. In Berlin even sh.tty flats in ok areas rent with no problems. 2. There are very many areas (and microareas even within an actually medium-good location) in Leipzig where you can't rent any flats even if fully renovated. So, you really must go there, spend several days, speak to all agents, see all areas you're considering.... and in very detail. Leipzig is funny, often a few metres of a good street are 'bad' for no apparent reason, even locals can't say why... I've seen many Leipzig blocks that are rented now, with ok yields, but I know they won't be able to rent them again if the tenants leave... there's been lots of vacancy and falling rents in last few years. The economy is actually going very well in Leipzig and Sachsen in general, but it'll take time to see any effect on rents etc.
I am certain Berlin (in medium to good areas) is a safer bet than Leipzig or Dresden. That said, the trend of large intl investors and funds buying in Berlin has also been present to a lesser extent in Leipzig and Dresden, so prices of apt blocks have gone up since last year in all these cities. As far as rental, Leipzig is ok and can offer a higher yield still than Berlin, but you must buy in a really good area and very good standard, renovated, etc. I've been quite tempted by a 10% yielding renovated block in an average location in Leipzig last week (in Berlin on fully renovated blocks in ok areas you get 5-6% at best now) but in the end decided to pass as the risk of not re-renting if someone leaves was still too high, even in this area... and it wasn't a bad one.
That said, I'll buy in Leipzig when I find something that meets my criteria.
Someone here asked about Leipzig... I've been spending quite some time there lately, looking for property. It's much much more tricky to rent flats there compared to Berlin. 1. Leipzig tenants are extremely picky - they can afford to as vacancy numbers are higher - anything in less than very good condition and all renovated is impossible to rent - even in really good areas. In Berlin even sh.tty flats in ok areas rent with no problems. 2. There are very many areas (and microareas even within an actually medium-good location) in Leipzig where you can't rent any flats even if fully renovated. So, you really must go there, spend several days, speak to all agents, see all areas you're considering.... and in very detail. Leipzig is funny, often a few metres of a good street are 'bad' for no apparent reason, even locals can't say why... I've seen many Leipzig blocks that are rented now, with ok yields, but I know they won't be able to rent them again if the tenants leave... there's been lots of vacancy and falling rents in last few years. The economy is actually going very well in Leipzig and Sachsen in general, but it'll take time to see any effect on rents etc.
I am certain Berlin (in medium to good areas) is a safer bet than Leipzig or Dresden. That said, the trend of large intl investors and funds buying in Berlin has also been present to a lesser extent in Leipzig and Dresden, so prices of apt blocks have gone up since last year in all these cities. As far as rental, Leipzig is ok and can offer a higher yield still than Berlin, but you must buy in a really good area and very good standard, renovated, etc. I've been quite tempted by a 10% yielding renovated block in an average location in Leipzig last week (in Berlin on fully renovated blocks in ok areas you get 5-6% at best now) but in the end decided to pass as the risk of not re-renting if someone leaves was still too high, even in this area... and it wasn't a bad one.
That said, I'll buy in Leipzig when I find something that meets my criteria.
QUOTE(prop77 @ Nov 29 2006, 11:33 PM) [snapback]499284[/snapback]
But, there are quite a few areas where there's almost no vacancy and anything in half decent condition is rented immediately.
Hi prop,
could you let me know which areas you mean.
Cheers,
Paul.
BTW I think you might be alpha on Singing Pig - I'm Joe90 over there (that name has already been used here). We've been posting pretty much thesame thing on both forums.....
Hello everyone,
For those who are interested in commecial properties in Berlin, you are welcome to check my listing at:
http://www.viviun.com/AD-66623
I hope you will find it interesting.
Cheers,
David
For those who are interested in commecial properties in Berlin, you are welcome to check my listing at:
http://www.viviun.com/AD-66623
I hope you will find it interesting.
Cheers,
David
Was out with a friend I hadn't seen in a while at the weekend and he mentioned his relatives had been contacted with regards a building in Berlin. Not sure if the people contacting them were from the German Government or local council, but message was that one of their relatives had bought some property there prior to WWII and gave it the Jews to use. The Nazis took the building in WWII and it looks like the German authoroties are bringing together current 'owner' and relatives of the man that bought the property prior to the war. I imagine some sort of deal will be struck whereby my friends relatives are compensated and the new owner gets clear title to the property.
Reason for making this posting is to flag a risk that those considering investing in Germany should consider. You should check who the owners were prior to the war to ensure that there are no nasty ownership surprises round the corner.
Reason for making this posting is to flag a risk that those considering investing in Germany should consider. You should check who the owners were prior to the war to ensure that there are no nasty ownership surprises round the corner.
QUOTE(The Soup Dragon @ Jan 29 2007, 12:38 PM) [snapback]538615[/snapback]
Was out with a friend I hadn't seen in a while at the weekend and he mentioned his relatives had been contacted with regards a building in Berlin. Not sure if the people contacting them were from the German Government or local council, but message was that one of their relatives had bought some property there prior to WWII and gave it the Jews to use. The Nazis took the building in WWII and it looks like the German authoroties are bringing together current 'owner' and relatives of the man that bought the property prior to the war. I imagine some sort of deal will be struck whereby my friends relatives are compensated and the new owner gets clear title to the property.
Reason for making this posting is to flag a risk that those considering investing in Germany should consider. You should check who the owners were prior to the war to ensure that there are no nasty ownership surprises round the corner.
Reason for making this posting is to flag a risk that those considering investing in Germany should consider. You should check who the owners were prior to the war to ensure that there are no nasty ownership surprises round the corner.
A GVO document should always be obtained to ensure there are no Jewish restitution rights. Any German lawer should seek such a document prior to allowing the property purchase completion. The document is provided by the Financial Settlements Office in Berlin.
Thanks DogBox - suspected yourself and one or two others would know how to eliminate that risk, just wanted to make sure it was aired.
Hi Dogbox,
I'm interested in delving further into the possibility of investing in German property via an investment fund. I've had a look at the funds you mentioned, and it all sounds very interesting.
I'm completely new to all this, though, and aside from looking at, say, the Treveria website, I don't know what else to do.
Is there somewhere I can compare this fund to others?
Where can I actually purchase shares in the fund?
Any other useful resources you can recommend for me to read up on all this?
I'm interested in delving further into the possibility of investing in German property via an investment fund. I've had a look at the funds you mentioned, and it all sounds very interesting.
I'm completely new to all this, though, and aside from looking at, say, the Treveria website, I don't know what else to do.
Is there somewhere I can compare this fund to others?
Where can I actually purchase shares in the fund?
Any other useful resources you can recommend for me to read up on all this?
Hello everyone in HousePriceCrash land,
I'm looking for tenanted property in Berlin. Looking through the Berliner Morgenpost property ads I have seen several apartments (but not all) offered with a Wohngeld or rent subsidy. How does this work? Does it go to the tenant or the LL. For instance I have seen an apt at EUR 100000, monthly rent at EUR 600 and a rent subsidy of EUR 256. What would I end up receiving as gross rent (I think 600, 344 from the tenant and 256 from the government- but need to make sure as it's quite important to get this right )
Also, if I'm buying an apt with sitting tenants, is it easy to check that they've been paying the rent - not just a cobbled together rent book from the previous owner but something more formal and binding. The last thing I want is to be saddled with non-paying tenants. Does German bureaucracy stretch to a rent-checking official somewhere?
Any help appreciated.
Chrs, joe.
I'm looking for tenanted property in Berlin. Looking through the Berliner Morgenpost property ads I have seen several apartments (but not all) offered with a Wohngeld or rent subsidy. How does this work? Does it go to the tenant or the LL. For instance I have seen an apt at EUR 100000, monthly rent at EUR 600 and a rent subsidy of EUR 256. What would I end up receiving as gross rent (I think 600, 344 from the tenant and 256 from the government- but need to make sure as it's quite important to get this right
)Also, if I'm buying an apt with sitting tenants, is it easy to check that they've been paying the rent - not just a cobbled together rent book from the previous owner but something more formal and binding. The last thing I want is to be saddled with non-paying tenants. Does German bureaucracy stretch to a rent-checking official somewhere?
Any help appreciated.
Chrs, joe.
QUOTE(pottolom @ Jan 29 2007, 07:39 PM) [snapback]539135[/snapback]
Hi Dogbox,
I'm interested in delving further into the possibility of investing in German property via an investment fund. I've had a look at the funds you mentioned, and it all sounds very interesting.
I'm completely new to all this, though, and aside from looking at, say, the Treveria website, I don't know what else to do.
Is there somewhere I can compare this fund to others?
Where can I actually purchase shares in the fund?
Any other useful resources you can recommend for me to read up on all this?
I'm interested in delving further into the possibility of investing in German property via an investment fund. I've had a look at the funds you mentioned, and it all sounds very interesting.
I'm completely new to all this, though, and aside from looking at, say, the Treveria website, I don't know what else to do.
Is there somewhere I can compare this fund to others?
Where can I actually purchase shares in the fund?
Any other useful resources you can recommend for me to read up on all this?
The shares I purchased in treveria have gone from 1.14e on the 04/07/06 to 1.41e today.
When you say compare funds, its a little tricky. The other firms I invested in are Speymilldeutchse, and Kenmore's new fund which has an increasing weighting into Germany. Take your pick or do bit in each like me!
If I had to invest in just one I would go for treveria. They are focused on commercial retail property - the point here is there are no more high streets, so supply is finite. They seem highly organised and professional. Also 85% leveredged which in my book is a big advantage, they aim this debt to be repaid within 5 years I think. If property prices increase which Im confident will be the case, this company should be well placed to reap the rewards.
They are well on target to aquire thier 2bn+ portfolio. Ive already had a tidy divi and that was only 6 months after they opened for business
My own feeling about UK property is that it will probably be in the doldrums for a while, and I'm looking towards German commercial property - which certainly is being hyped up in everything I have been reading. I was wondering if the easiest way to get into German commercial property was to buy shares in a company which is active in the area and I found Develica Deutschand Ltd which is listed on the UK AIM market. Does anyone have any views as to its prospects, bearing in mind the commercial properties it seems to be snapping up?
Hi
I am new to this website. Basically I am interested in purchasing an appartment in Berlin as a long-term investment. I have contacted various sites and there appears to be plenty of oppertunity to purchase appartments with rental guarantees for anything up to 10 years. From what I can gather this pretty much covers the mortgage, and management costs are included.
For a no-hassle long term investment I thought that this type offer sounded good. Has anyone bought in Germany with the likes of MRI / IPP etc, and how did you find the process? No doubt there is the odd catch, one problem is you don;t get the benfit of any increase in rental income but I was wondering is there anything else I should be looking out for.
Any assistance would be greatly appreciated! As I said I am totally new to this game so need the help!
I am new to this website. Basically I am interested in purchasing an appartment in Berlin as a long-term investment. I have contacted various sites and there appears to be plenty of oppertunity to purchase appartments with rental guarantees for anything up to 10 years. From what I can gather this pretty much covers the mortgage, and management costs are included.
For a no-hassle long term investment I thought that this type offer sounded good. Has anyone bought in Germany with the likes of MRI / IPP etc, and how did you find the process? No doubt there is the odd catch, one problem is you don;t get the benfit of any increase in rental income but I was wondering is there anything else I should be looking out for.
Any assistance would be greatly appreciated! As I said I am totally new to this game so need the help!
QUOTE(soldintime @ Nov 21 2006, 09:07 PM) [snapback]493414[/snapback]
I disagree. I am non-resident and found it is possible to get mortage, I got a fix for 10 years at 4.15%. Plus there are good yields out there of 8-10% that shows clearly that buying is cheaper than renting. All market have their swings this one has just hit bottom and is rising.
Soldinttime, you may stop me going mad.....Can you tell me please who you got your mortgage through? I have been trying with very little success to get a non resident mortgage.
My only glimmer of hope at the mo is Interhyp, though their source valued the property I was interested in at about 60% of the market price...I was loooking for one in th 85% range.
Please, please, please, please......!
Interhyp will only give 60%. If you are in Berlin you can get up to 80% for an apartment block. I can give you an address of a broker that I have used. Email me on supertuur69@hotmail.com. As i have bought in Leipzig the situation is a bit more difficult, I managed to get only 60% mortgages but who cares on a yiled of 11% or more.
QUOTE(soldintime @ Feb 23 2007, 09:32 PM) [snapback]561791[/snapback]
Interhyp will only give 60%. If you are in Berlin you can get up to 80% for an apartment block. I can give you an address of a broker that I have used. Email me on supertuur69@hotmail.com. As i have bought in Leipzig the situation is a bit more difficult, I managed to get only 60% mortgages but who cares on a yiled of 11% or more.
Thanks, will do.
Out of interest, why go into Leipzig over Berlin? Just for the increased yield? Don't know much about Leipzig to be honest but can see the natural upside in Berlin...
QUOTE(Chazza @ Feb 25 2007, 05:46 PM) [snapback]562898[/snapback]
Thanks, will do.
Out of interest, why go into Leipzig over Berlin? Just for the increased yield? Don't know much about Leipzig to be honest but can see the natural upside in Berlin...
Out of interest, why go into Leipzig over Berlin? Just for the increased yield? Don't know much about Leipzig to be honest but can see the natural upside in Berlin...
I felt Berlin was chased too much by large investors, yields are now only 6% for good areas and 8% for the lesser areas like Neukoln and Wedding. Last year in january it was still a lot better but a lot of places just slipped through my fingers. Leipzig has got a good manufacturing base with Porsche, BMW having factories and DHL, Amazon.de having just moved their main operatioons out their. For the longer term I see better prospects for the Leipzig unemployment to come down than for Berlin.
I still have to see how easy it is to get rental increases in Germany as these are heavily regulated, so for me 6% yields are just not enough. I am very cautious investor. However the word on the street from the Leipzig estate agents is that the market is hot and prices are on the up driving yields further down. 6% yield is the expected average by mid 2008. Leipzig has turned a corner and population is growing again.
QUOTE(soldintime @ Nov 21 2006, 09:07 PM) [snapback]493414[/snapback]
I disagree. I am non-resident and found it is possible to get mortage, I got a fix for 10 years at 4.15%. Plus there are good yields out there of 8-10% that shows clearly that buying is cheaper than renting. All market have their swings this one has just hit bottom and is rising.
Could you let me know who the mortgage was with and also any information as to the process involved please?
Many thanks
Hi,
I am interested in buying a flat in berlin to let and later maybe one to live in.
Could someone explain the various charges involved eg, when letting what charges does the renter pay and what does the landlord pay? I am asking as I am unsure about the concept of Hausgeld and how this and any other taxes come into the equation.
Then if I moved into a flat as an owner-occupyer, I presume the same charges would be there but would be paid for by me?
Thanks in advance,
S
I am interested in buying a flat in berlin to let and later maybe one to live in.
Could someone explain the various charges involved eg, when letting what charges does the renter pay and what does the landlord pay? I am asking as I am unsure about the concept of Hausgeld and how this and any other taxes come into the equation.
Then if I moved into a flat as an owner-occupyer, I presume the same charges would be there but would be paid for by me?
Thanks in advance,
S
QUOTE(smokie @ Mar 12 2007, 06:51 PM) [snapback]575993[/snapback]
Hi,
I am interested in buying a flat in berlin to let and later maybe one to live in.
Could someone explain the various charges involved eg, when letting what charges does the renter pay and what does the landlord pay? I am asking as I am unsure about the concept of Hausgeld and how this and any other taxes come into the equation.
Then if I moved into a flat as an owner-occupyer, I presume the same charges would be there but would be paid for by me?
Thanks in advance,
S
I am interested in buying a flat in berlin to let and later maybe one to live in.
Could someone explain the various charges involved eg, when letting what charges does the renter pay and what does the landlord pay? I am asking as I am unsure about the concept of Hausgeld and how this and any other taxes come into the equation.
Then if I moved into a flat as an owner-occupyer, I presume the same charges would be there but would be paid for by me?
Thanks in advance,
S
Put in a google search for Property source Berlin. I'm sure you'll find the right co there. It's company in Spandau run by
as an Anglo-German partnership (ILJA BAUDUSCH and ROBERT GORDON) I've used them in the past and they have always come up trumps. I'm sure you'll get the best and up to date info of the type you need there - good luck
QUOTE(soldintime @ Feb 25 2007, 07:46 PM) [snapback]562943[/snapback]
I felt Berlin was chased too much by large investors, yields are now only 6% for good areas and 8% for the lesser areas like Neukoln and Wedding. Last year in january it was still a lot better but a lot of places just slipped through my fingers. Leipzig has got a good manufacturing base with Porsche, BMW having factories and DHL, Amazon.de having just moved their main operations out their. For the longer term I see better prospects for the Leipzig unemployment to come down than for Berlin.
I still have to see how easy it is to get rental increases in Germany as these are heavily regulated, so for me 6% yields are just not enough. I am very cautious investor. However the word on the street from the Leipzig estate agents is that the market is hot and prices are on the up driving yields further down. 6% yield is the expected average by mid 2008. Leipzig has turned a corner and population is growing again.
I still have to see how easy it is to get rental increases in Germany as these are heavily regulated, so for me 6% yields are just not enough. I am very cautious investor. However the word on the street from the Leipzig estate agents is that the market is hot and prices are on the up driving yields further down. 6% yield is the expected average by mid 2008. Leipzig has turned a corner and population is growing again.
Germany features as the mainstay of my agency's business. To put it as simply as I know how I would say Berlin is the now money, Dresden/Leipzig/Chemnitz is the tomorrow money.
We operate elsewhere in the world but nowhere is more exciting than the German opportunity. It's a beautiful country with an enviable lifestyle, stability, vast potential and it's all but our next door neighbour.
We have an office just north of Dresden. We operate there because it offers the potential others are talking about here and more importantly because it is where we want to live. (We could have chosen one of many other spots in Europe or N America but as a package N.E. Germany is hard to beat - anywhere) Incidentally the cost of living is generally quite significantly cheaper than the UK. If any of you need assitance with flats (or any other sort of property) in Germany feel free to contact me. If I can't help rest assured I'll know someone who can.
Does anyone have any experience of other German cities (Koln, Dusseldorf in particular). Which are the best areas for BTL - the equivalent areas in these cities to Charlottenburg,Wilmersdorf in Berlin.
From the propery websites there are sometimes two annual rental figures quoted, shown below - what do they mean?
Mieteinnahmen p.a. (Soll): 36.200,00 EUR
Mieteinnahmen p.a. (Ist): 31.816,00 EUR
Also, how does Hausgeld work - who gets what from the following apartment which is sold fully let and occupied - is the Hausgeld paid to the tenant or the landlord - is it monthly or yearly.
Hausgeld: 261,00 EUR.
Mieteinnahmen pro monat: 371,30 EUR.
Any help appreciated.....cheers,
Joe.
From the propery websites there are sometimes two annual rental figures quoted, shown below - what do they mean?
Mieteinnahmen p.a. (Soll): 36.200,00 EUR
Mieteinnahmen p.a. (Ist): 31.816,00 EUR
Also, how does Hausgeld work - who gets what from the following apartment which is sold fully let and occupied - is the Hausgeld paid to the tenant or the landlord - is it monthly or yearly.
Hausgeld: 261,00 EUR.
Mieteinnahmen pro monat: 371,30 EUR.
Any help appreciated.....cheers,
Joe.
Mieteinnahmen p.a. (Soll): 36.200,00 EUR = Maximum rent when fully tenanted
Mieteinnahmen p.a. (Ist): 31.816,00 EUR = Actual rent
Hausgeld: 261,00 EUR. - Bills to be paid by tenant
Mieteinnahmen pro monat: 371,30 EUR. - rent per month
Mieteinnahmen p.a. (Ist): 31.816,00 EUR = Actual rent
Hausgeld: 261,00 EUR. - Bills to be paid by tenant
Mieteinnahmen pro monat: 371,30 EUR. - rent per month
QUOTE(soldintime @ Apr 20 2007, 08:59 PM) [snapback]613942[/snapback]
Hausgeld: 261,00 EUR. - Bills to be paid by tenant
This is not quite right. The "Hausgeld" is payable by the landlord. Some, but not all of it, can be passed on to the tenant on top of the rent. If the tenant defaults or whilst the flat is vacant, the landlord needs to keep paying the Hausgeld.
I don't want to sound too negative, and I do have a vested interest (my own German property fund BPI), but direct ownership in Germany is very tedious, and if you do not speak German, I would be very careful. You will need to pay someone to deal with all the hassle and do your tax return in Germany, which can be expensive. Investment through a fund (like BPI) cuts all that out.
QUOTE(Bubble Pricker @ Apr 21 2007, 05:04 AM) [snapback]614057[/snapback]
This is not quite right. The "Hausgeld" is payable by the landlord. Some, but not all of it, can be passed on to the tenant on top of the rent. If the tenant defaults or whilst the flat is vacant, the landlord needs to keep paying the Hausgeld.
I don't want to sound too negative, and I do have a vested interest (my own German property fund BPI), but direct ownership in Germany is very tedious, and if you do not speak German, I would be very careful. You will need to pay someone to deal with all the hassle and do your tax return in Germany, which can be expensive. Investment through a fund (like BPI) cuts all that out.
I don't want to sound too negative, and I do have a vested interest (my own German property fund BPI), but direct ownership in Germany is very tedious, and if you do not speak German, I would be very careful. You will need to pay someone to deal with all the hassle and do your tax return in Germany, which can be expensive. Investment through a fund (like BPI) cuts all that out.
Thanks for those replies....a couple of questions more.
I have heard of cold rent and warm rent - does "cold rent" mean that the heating portion of the hausgeld is paid directly by the tenant, rather than the landlord (the flat is rented cold).
Also, is is possible to find out how the hausgeld breaks down - how much for heating, how much for upkeep of communal areas etc.
Finally, is wohngeld something different - I have seen apartments for sale with a wohngeld which translates as "rent subsidy" but who gets it and who pays it? If it is paid to the tenant, directly from the government then why should the landlord be interested, other than to know that the tenants are not upto paying the rent independently.
Any help appreciated.
Cheers,
Paul.
BTW Bubble Pricker, thanks for the advice (and the vested interest disclaimer) - I want to go it alone, rather than through a fund because I want more control of my investment. I know it may be more hassle but a couple of trips over to Germany a year can't be a bad thing.
For those interested in German property funds I see that a company called Berlin Capital Investments www.berlin-capital.com has just launched one. I don't think they are running it but it is available through them and is only £25,000 minimum investment. I just got the whole prospectus and it all looks pretty proffesional, it is based in Jersey for tax. One thing is it is not on a normal stock market so may not be easy to sell before it is closed. They say it will last 3-7 years.
Does anyone have any thoughts on this or something similar?
Does anyone have any thoughts on this or something similar?
Joe90, your questions are all valid, but you will understand that I am not going to give free advice here on all these issues. That's what I run a fund for, so that investors do not have to worry about them. If you want to go it alone, I am happy to advise you also - for a fee. Email me if you are interested.
some intresting facts and figures that DONT add up
im just back from berlin with a company "em or eye"
bit of a disaster the rep didnt know i was comming and missed me at the airport even though they aranged the flights
then i was told to entertain myself with a bus sight seeing trip for the day until they can get my rep sorted for tomorow
i was shown only one appartment a 2bed even though i was more intrested in a 1bed but they had no other show homes (i thought strange for the amount they clame to sell)overall bad service
then off to discuss figures
you need for a 1bed appartment 100k euro
a deposit of at least 40% (i was told this all that can be got in germany for an non resident)
you will get a rental income of 4.2-4.3% which you cant just change or kick the tennants out the law is in there intrest to stay as long as they want
mortgage payments will be 5.9 (approx)
the gist of that is you will operate at a loss
i mentioned this and was told dont worry about that think of the growth
now i thinks to myself why would anybody want to buy a propperty off me in 10 years when it has been making a loss
a local wont be able to aford it and investor will be thinking like me and see there is no point
the prices to me dont seem that cheap for what they are considering they are at a five year low 100k euro is 68k pounds for a 1bed in an appartment block of maybe 50 to 100 homes this is about the price of birmingham today so its not that cheap certanly not rock bottom bargin houses of europe as advertised)
you can only make money in berlin if you buy cheaper than this and get better rental than this is there anybody there who can give me the actuall purchase price on the market at the moment that we can all discuss if we can make a better buy of
hope all thats of interest
im just back from berlin with a company "em or eye"
bit of a disaster the rep didnt know i was comming and missed me at the airport even though they aranged the flights
then i was told to entertain myself with a bus sight seeing trip for the day until they can get my rep sorted for tomorow
i was shown only one appartment a 2bed even though i was more intrested in a 1bed but they had no other show homes (i thought strange for the amount they clame to sell)overall bad service
then off to discuss figures
you need for a 1bed appartment 100k euro
a deposit of at least 40% (i was told this all that can be got in germany for an non resident)
you will get a rental income of 4.2-4.3% which you cant just change or kick the tennants out the law is in there intrest to stay as long as they want
mortgage payments will be 5.9 (approx)
the gist of that is you will operate at a loss
i mentioned this and was told dont worry about that think of the growth
now i thinks to myself why would anybody want to buy a propperty off me in 10 years when it has been making a loss
a local wont be able to aford it and investor will be thinking like me and see there is no point
the prices to me dont seem that cheap for what they are considering they are at a five year low 100k euro is 68k pounds for a 1bed in an appartment block of maybe 50 to 100 homes this is about the price of birmingham today so its not that cheap certanly not rock bottom bargin houses of europe as advertised)
you can only make money in berlin if you buy cheaper than this and get better rental than this is there anybody there who can give me the actuall purchase price on the market at the moment that we can all discuss if we can make a better buy of
hope all thats of interest
QUOTE(grommet20002000 @ May 5 2007, 09:27 PM) [snapback]628470[/snapback]
some intresting facts and figures that DONT add up
im just back from berlin with a company "em or eye"
bit of a disaster the rep didnt know i was comming and missed me at the airport even though they aranged the flights
then i was told to entertain myself with a bus sight seeing trip for the day until they can get my rep sorted for tomorow
i was shown only one appartment a 2bed even though i was more intrested in a 1bed but they had no other show homes (i thought strange for the amount they clame to sell)overall bad service
then off to discuss figures
you need for a 1bed appartment 100k euro
a deposit of at least 40% (i was told this all that can be got in germany for an non resident)
you will get a rental income of 4.2-4.3% which you cant just change or kick the tennants out the law is in there intrest to stay as long as they want
mortgage payments will be 5.9 (approx)
the gist of that is you will operate at a loss
i mentioned this and was told dont worry about that think of the growth
now i thinks to myself why would anybody want to buy a propperty off me in 10 years when it has been making a loss
a local wont be able to aford it and investor will be thinking like me and see there is no point
the prices to me dont seem that cheap for what they are considering they are at a five year low 100k euro is 68k pounds for a 1bed in an appartment block of maybe 50 to 100 homes this is about the price of birmingham today so its not that cheap certanly not rock bottom bargin houses of europe as advertised)
you can only make money in berlin if you buy cheaper than this and get better rental than this is there anybody there who can give me the actuall purchase price on the market at the moment that we can all discuss if we can make a better buy of
hope all thats of interest
im just back from berlin with a company "em or eye"
bit of a disaster the rep didnt know i was comming and missed me at the airport even though they aranged the flights
then i was told to entertain myself with a bus sight seeing trip for the day until they can get my rep sorted for tomorow
i was shown only one appartment a 2bed even though i was more intrested in a 1bed but they had no other show homes (i thought strange for the amount they clame to sell)overall bad service
then off to discuss figures
you need for a 1bed appartment 100k euro
a deposit of at least 40% (i was told this all that can be got in germany for an non resident)
you will get a rental income of 4.2-4.3% which you cant just change or kick the tennants out the law is in there intrest to stay as long as they want
mortgage payments will be 5.9 (approx)
the gist of that is you will operate at a loss
i mentioned this and was told dont worry about that think of the growth
now i thinks to myself why would anybody want to buy a propperty off me in 10 years when it has been making a loss
a local wont be able to aford it and investor will be thinking like me and see there is no point
the prices to me dont seem that cheap for what they are considering they are at a five year low 100k euro is 68k pounds for a 1bed in an appartment block of maybe 50 to 100 homes this is about the price of birmingham today so its not that cheap certanly not rock bottom bargin houses of europe as advertised)
you can only make money in berlin if you buy cheaper than this and get better rental than this is there anybody there who can give me the actuall purchase price on the market at the moment that we can all discuss if we can make a better buy of
hope all thats of interest
I agree with you there. The rental difference between good and bad areas are not that big compared to the house price differences. Rental rules mean you will find it hard to increase rent by more than 7% a year. Germany protect the renter more than the owner. If this will change that is the big IF for buying property in Germany. I bought with 12% yield as I can make the model work. You still can at 8-8.5% yield but with 4% yields something else has to change.
QUOTE(Bubble Pricker @ Apr 21 2007, 05:04 AM) [snapback]614057[/snapback]
This is not quite right. The "Hausgeld" is payable by the landlord. Some, but not all of it, can be passed on to the tenant on top of the rent. If the tenant defaults or whilst the flat is vacant, the landlord needs to keep paying the Hausgeld.
I don't want to sound too negative, and I do have a vested interest (my own German property fund BPI), but direct ownership in Germany is very tedious, and if you do not speak German, I would be very careful. You will need to pay someone to deal with all the hassle and do your tax return in Germany, which can be expensive. Investment through a fund (like BPI) cuts all that out.
I don't want to sound too negative, and I do have a vested interest (my own German property fund BPI), but direct ownership in Germany is very tedious, and if you do not speak German, I would be very careful. You will need to pay someone to deal with all the hassle and do your tax return in Germany, which can be expensive. Investment through a fund (like BPI) cuts all that out.
I agree with all of that.
In my experience of renting in Germany the Hausgeld is rarely mentioned - I have always been quoted a flat rental charge plus Nebenkosten (extra costs including heating, water etc.). The landlord pays the Hausgeld and it must be paid every month without fail. If a certain property is advertised as having a particular yield you MUST find out whether Hausgeld is included in those figures as the cost can vary widely as a %age of the rent.
If I was an inexperienced UK resident investor with a limited budget and no German language skills I wouldn't dream of trying to buy an investment property in Germany. A fund is a much more sensible way to get involved under these circumstances IMO.
As a foreign investor you are at a disadvantage when you buy direct. German residents benefit from healthy tax breaks on property they rent out. When you factor in the tax breaks the yields become more attractive to the German BTLer than the outsider. Also, if you intend on holding the property for less than 10 years expect to get hit with speculation tax and CGT.
The Germans are not the kind of people who will allow lots of marauding Englishmen looking for a quick buck to destabilise their local economies and increase their rents to the max at every opportunity. Private sector housing all over Germany is well established and tenants rights are heavily protected. I wouldn't recommend getting into a fight with a tenant. Most will have insurance covering any legal costs they may incur if the landlord tries to be clever (I have this myself
) Many Germans are experienced, knowledgable private landlords and often live in close proximity to the properties they rent out. BTL is not a new thing the Brits invented.
I would advise anyone thinking of buying in Germany to proceed with extreme caution. €100k for a one bed flat in Berlin
You can get the same around Stuttgart for that with a higher concentration of young professionals, S-Bahn connection, more employment/prosperity and loads of big companies around the corner. Stuttgart is also a much nicer and dare I say much more honest part of the world. I'm not saying Berlin is a bad place to invest - just that if you do, you need expert independent advice.
QUOTE(grommet20002000 @ May 5 2007, 08:27 PM) [snapback]628470[/snapback]
some intresting facts and figures that DONT add up
im just back from berlin with a company "em or eye"
bit of a disaster the rep didnt know i was comming and missed me at the airport even though they aranged the flights
then i was told to entertain myself with a bus sight seeing trip for the day until they can get my rep sorted for tomorow
i was shown only one appartment a 2bed even though i was more intrested in a 1bed but they had no other show homes (i thought strange for the amount they clame to sell)overall bad service
then off to discuss figures
you need for a 1bed appartment 100k euro
a deposit of at least 40% (i was told this all that can be got in germany for an non resident)
you will get a rental income of 4.2-4.3% which you cant just change or kick the tennants out the law is in there intrest to stay as long as they want
mortgage payments will be 5.9 (approx)
the gist of that is you will operate at a loss
i mentioned this and was told dont worry about that think of the growth
now i thinks to myself why would anybody want to buy a propperty off me in 10 years when it has been making a loss
a local wont be able to aford it and investor will be thinking like me and see there is no point
the prices to me dont seem that cheap for what they are considering they are at a five year low 100k euro is 68k pounds for a 1bed in an appartment block of maybe 50 to 100 homes this is about the price of birmingham today so its not that cheap certanly not rock bottom bargin houses of europe as advertised)
you can only make money in berlin if you buy cheaper than this and get better rental than this is there anybody there who can give me the actuall purchase price on the market at the moment that we can all discuss if we can make a better buy of
hope all thats of interest
im just back from berlin with a company "em or eye"
bit of a disaster the rep didnt know i was comming and missed me at the airport even though they aranged the flights
then i was told to entertain myself with a bus sight seeing trip for the day until they can get my rep sorted for tomorow
i was shown only one appartment a 2bed even though i was more intrested in a 1bed but they had no other show homes (i thought strange for the amount they clame to sell)overall bad service
then off to discuss figures
you need for a 1bed appartment 100k euro
a deposit of at least 40% (i was told this all that can be got in germany for an non resident)
you will get a rental income of 4.2-4.3% which you cant just change or kick the tennants out the law is in there intrest to stay as long as they want
mortgage payments will be 5.9 (approx)
the gist of that is you will operate at a loss
i mentioned this and was told dont worry about that think of the growth
now i thinks to myself why would anybody want to buy a propperty off me in 10 years when it has been making a loss
a local wont be able to aford it and investor will be thinking like me and see there is no point
the prices to me dont seem that cheap for what they are considering they are at a five year low 100k euro is 68k pounds for a 1bed in an appartment block of maybe 50 to 100 homes this is about the price of birmingham today so its not that cheap certanly not rock bottom bargin houses of europe as advertised)
you can only make money in berlin if you buy cheaper than this and get better rental than this is there anybody there who can give me the actuall purchase price on the market at the moment that we can all discuss if we can make a better buy of
hope all thats of interest
Rip off. Don't accept anything than less than 6% even in top notch (high potential) apartments. There are a number of property developers (funded dubiously from outside of Germany I might add) buying apartments cheap and then selling them at ridiculous prices simply because they advertise in foreign newspapers and have their website in English. Go to a genuine German estate agency or an English speaking one that has no investment VI (ie they make their money just off comission not renovating and flipping apartments).
I bought an 80 square metre apartment for 99k euros in the famous karl-marx-allee block (histotically protected building). 6.5 euro a square metre a month yield. (OK the yield is a bit low but you should see the apartment - these things are definitely collectors items - very special)
I also have another one which I got as a repo. Again Friedrichshain area - 54k euro for 60 square metres. 6.2 euro a square metre yield.
There are higher yields but they are all in godawful soviet blocks. Avoid.
Stick to areas in the west - or if you fancy a bit more of a punt go east - but stick to fashionable areas like Friedrichshain, Kreuzberg, Prenzlauer Berg (overpriced nowadays) and select parts of Mitte. You will no exactly what I mean when you go somewhere like Marzahn and fear that you will be attacked by street thugs.
Remember - Germany is a long term game (because of high entry costs and legal timeframe in buying or selling) so buying and selling every year will not work. However, as other people have mentioned - I can't think of anywhere safer (and based on sound economic principles) than good areas of Berlin. Think of it as insurance against the overheated UK.
Lexter I agree Germany represents a safe and sound investment.
One thing I would add is not to dismiss 'old Soviet blocks'. Good opportunities exist in many guises so it pays to have an open mind.
Looking back to the rise of UK B2L I recall investors having differing investment stratergy's. On the one hand you had people sticking to nice areas as you suggest on the other I know 2 investors who doggedly stuck with grotty unloved sectors and have done fabously well. One snapped up ultra cheap flats all over unloved no - hope DSS ridden Hastings, the other concentrated on sh1tholes above shops in Harringey.
In other words Im open minded always. Im suspiscious of people who tell us thier formula is the right and only one. Life just aint that black and white.
Ive recently aquired a block in unloved East Germany bear the Polish border. MADNESS you cry. So why take such a gamble? Well, firstly the worlds largest Biofuel plant opens in the village in October - its the size of 42 football pitches and will suck in fuel crop production from a massive area bringing a much needed economic boost. Secondly its 15km from Poland largest port which is a boom town.
The yield Im getting is frighteningly high and there are no structural or maintainance issues - indeed the poor sod who got repossesed had spent a fortune on new heating etc.
My 2 penneth
All,
I'm off to Hannover in the morning for a week maybe more, I'll then be heading to my home stomping grounds for a couple of months. I have a meeting in Hannover with a certain John S who posted on the subject of Germany last year. It seems we have had a mutual friend for the last 18 months and have not bumped into each other or been discussed by that mutual friend who it appears we have both asked to be discreet and rather annoyingly he has been just that.
John has been operating in Germany longer than I and has built a good reputation and a tidy little business. Once I'm home I'll be posting any advice or knowledge John has agreed is for public use. He has an office outside Dresden and has invited me to Dresden in the Autumn - I have never need much of an excuse to go to Dresden.
He explains it is unlikely he will be posting here or other forums again due to time constraints. I am in semi-retirement so time is only occassionally a problem so will continue with news of Germany and a development to my own business which may or may not interest some of you.
I'm off to Hannover in the morning for a week maybe more, I'll then be heading to my home stomping grounds for a couple of months. I have a meeting in Hannover with a certain John S who posted on the subject of Germany last year. It seems we have had a mutual friend for the last 18 months and have not bumped into each other or been discussed by that mutual friend who it appears we have both asked to be discreet and rather annoyingly he has been just that.
John has been operating in Germany longer than I and has built a good reputation and a tidy little business. Once I'm home I'll be posting any advice or knowledge John has agreed is for public use. He has an office outside Dresden and has invited me to Dresden in the Autumn - I have never need much of an excuse to go to Dresden.
He explains it is unlikely he will be posting here or other forums again due to time constraints. I am in semi-retirement so time is only occassionally a problem so will continue with news of Germany and a development to my own business which may or may not interest some of you.
QUOTE(dogbox @ Jun 6 2007, 10:34 AM) [snapback]658791[/snapback]
Lexter I agree Germany represents a safe and sound investment.
One thing I would add is not to dismiss 'old Soviet blocks'. Good opportunities exist in many guises so it pays to have an open mind.
Looking back to the rise of UK B2L I recall investors having differing investment stratergy's. On the one hand you had people sticking to nice areas as you suggest on the other I know 2 investors who doggedly stuck with grotty unloved sectors and have done fabously well. One snapped up ultra cheap flats all over unloved no - hope DSS ridden Hastings, the other concentrated on sh1tholes above shops in Harringey.
In other words Im open minded always. Im suspiscious of people who tell us thier formula is the right and only one. Life just aint that black and white.
Ive recently aquired a block in unloved East Germany bear the Polish border. MADNESS you cry. So why take such a gamble? Well, firstly the worlds largest Biofuel plant opens in the village in October - its the size of 42 football pitches and will suck in fuel crop production from a massive area bringing a much needed economic boost. Secondly its 15km from Poland largest port which is a boom town.
The yield Im getting is frighteningly high and there are no structural or maintainance issues - indeed the poor sod who got repossesed had spent a fortune on new heating etc.
My 2 penneth
One thing I would add is not to dismiss 'old Soviet blocks'. Good opportunities exist in many guises so it pays to have an open mind.
Looking back to the rise of UK B2L I recall investors having differing investment stratergy's. On the one hand you had people sticking to nice areas as you suggest on the other I know 2 investors who doggedly stuck with grotty unloved sectors and have done fabously well. One snapped up ultra cheap flats all over unloved no - hope DSS ridden Hastings, the other concentrated on sh1tholes above shops in Harringey.
In other words Im open minded always. Im suspiscious of people who tell us thier formula is the right and only one. Life just aint that black and white.
Ive recently aquired a block in unloved East Germany bear the Polish border. MADNESS you cry. So why take such a gamble? Well, firstly the worlds largest Biofuel plant opens in the village in October - its the size of 42 football pitches and will suck in fuel crop production from a massive area bringing a much needed economic boost. Secondly its 15km from Poland largest port which is a boom town.
The yield Im getting is frighteningly high and there are no structural or maintainance issues - indeed the poor sod who got repossesed had spent a fortune on new heating etc.
My 2 penneth
Well done. Poles near the German border are moving to Germany due to cheaper housing there after rampant HPI in Poland. Another thing to factor in.
Hi,
Ive recently returned from a trip to Berlin. Hope to find something to buy on the next trip.
I have a few friends that are interested in pooling together and buying a dozen or so apartments. I was wondering if anyone could help, or knows someone that can on the best way to structure this.
I understand the best way to go may be to form a ltd company in germany.
I am happy to pay for professional advice on the tax and financing implications of such a joint venture if anyone can recommend someone.
Thanks
Greg
Ive recently returned from a trip to Berlin. Hope to find something to buy on the next trip.
I have a few friends that are interested in pooling together and buying a dozen or so apartments. I was wondering if anyone could help, or knows someone that can on the best way to structure this.
I understand the best way to go may be to form a ltd company in germany.
I am happy to pay for professional advice on the tax and financing implications of such a joint venture if anyone can recommend someone.
Thanks
Greg
QUOTE(nootopian @ Jun 15 2007, 12:40 PM) [snapback]667746[/snapback]
Hi,
Ive recently returned from a trip to Berlin. Hope to find something to buy on the next trip.
I have a few friends that are interested in pooling together and buying a dozen or so apartments. I was wondering if anyone could help, or knows someone that can on the best way to structure this.
I understand the best way to go may be to form a ltd company in germany.
I am happy to pay for professional advice on the tax and financing implications of such a joint venture if anyone can recommend someone.
Thanks
Greg
Ive recently returned from a trip to Berlin. Hope to find something to buy on the next trip.
I have a few friends that are interested in pooling together and buying a dozen or so apartments. I was wondering if anyone could help, or knows someone that can on the best way to structure this.
I understand the best way to go may be to form a ltd company in germany.
I am happy to pay for professional advice on the tax and financing implications of such a joint venture if anyone can recommend someone.
Thanks
Greg
I believe you can set something up under the German system for just exactly that - a GbR - a way for 2 or more partners to own german property. Alternatively you can set up a foreign legal entity to do the same. Either way you will need a professional (business/tax specialist) in Germany to help you organise something like this anyway so only take advice from this site to point you in the right direction. You lawyer should be able to point you in the right direction (and if you don't have a lawyer get one quick smart - the German legal system is full of surprises - they may cost up to 2% of the purchase price but they are worth every penny). I can recommend a lawyer I am happy with if you wish.
I hope you are being careful about who you buy off - Berlin is a bit of an opaque market (especially if you don't speak German) and you can see people buying apartments at 'tourist' prices. If it's advertised in English just be knowledgeable that this means that there is usally (but not always if they are the genuine first agent) someone else taking a cut.
I would stress that you need to come across as a genuinely nice chap though in the property buying thing - wanting to do a service to the letting market (and it's OK to make a reasonable profit) - coming across as a 'we're english, have loads of cash and can buy all your houses' will not go down well. I actually have a genuine interest in eventually living in Berlin and needing to start some kind of link to the place or reason to be there first so I can wangle my job across there.
Cheers and good luck
Lexster
QUOTE(nootopian @ Jun 15 2007, 01:40 PM) [snapback]667746[/snapback]
Hi,
Ive recently returned from a trip to Berlin. Hope to find something to buy on the next trip.
I have a few friends that are interested in pooling together and buying a dozen or so apartments. I was wondering if anyone could help, or knows someone that can on the best way to structure this.
I understand the best way to go may be to form a ltd company in germany.
I am happy to pay for professional advice on the tax and financing implications of such a joint venture if anyone can recommend someone.
Thanks
Greg
Ive recently returned from a trip to Berlin. Hope to find something to buy on the next trip.
I have a few friends that are interested in pooling together and buying a dozen or so apartments. I was wondering if anyone could help, or knows someone that can on the best way to structure this.
I understand the best way to go may be to form a ltd company in germany.
I am happy to pay for professional advice on the tax and financing implications of such a joint venture if anyone can recommend someone.
Thanks
Greg
Currently in Germany, now almost fully retired at 57 years old and most of it was made possible by the German market. So don't listen to the doom merchants - you just need to know what you're doing and then go and do it many times.
I mentioned in a prior post about a meeting with a gent who used to post here and has been operating in Germany for a long time. He has been a great advisor who has become a good friend, he put me on to the companies I use in Germany for most of my deails, I met him in Hannover and we did a few days touring the Harz mountains and then moved east.
I have sold my business complete whilst in Germany and made a very handsome profit. I may continue to post here from time to time but not really with a commercial head on.
DogThorr - Went to the area you pointed out and have purchased two blocks to the north of COTTBUS and a couple of apartments in Meissen. Two villas near Torgau (On the banks of the Elbe) All of the flats are rented and will probably stay that way for some time yet. I won't tell you the price or the current yeild (you'd probably call call me a liar anyway]
Saxony Properties is doing all the necessary for me as I really cannot be bothered to do it all for myself anymore.
Who bought the business? An Indian company (They had been sounding me out for about six months but I played hard to get - once I'd passed them to my contact and he agreed to act as their advisor with the other two companies as agents the deal was done. All but my building plots in Florida went with the business so it's me and my recent purchases, German beer and wine and pretty much leave the world alone. I'll still dabble if something extraordinary comes my way but I'll leave everything with the two companies I've worked with from the off and that is G + B property source - they have acted as my managers, insurance agent and done the occassional purchase/sale for me. They are an Anglo-German outfit based in Spandau.
The main source of advice and business has been Saxony Property Services based in Redditch and near Dresden - until they came along I was operating alone and with mixed results - I put most of my business through them and never looked back. Terry (The MD, has become a good friend) and Guenter has been a trusted advisor. I've had nine full time employees and on and off averaging five part time. They have all been a joy to work with and I hope their new found bosses listen to them in the same way I did.
I won't miss the jetting off to other parts at a moments notice but I will miss some of the characters I met along the way as I sink into semi obscurity in Germany. - I could have afforded to live anywhere in the world but it's Germany that, in my humble view, offers me the best lifestyle.
So Greg and the others reading this - go for it but don't be afraid to ask advice. No-one knows it all.
Just a general comment to all potential investors reading these links. As with anything vested interest is present - a company name or a website recommendation is just that, a recommendation. Do your own research, don't rush into anything and use resource objectively.
If people are offering a service that makes it worthwhile to you by all means pay their percentages to use it. However, it ain't that hard to organise this and some of the advertisements for overpriced services on this site are entertaining to read. Try offering an hourly rate instead.......see how that goes down.
If people are offering a service that makes it worthwhile to you by all means pay their percentages to use it. However, it ain't that hard to organise this and some of the advertisements for overpriced services on this site are entertaining to read. Try offering an hourly rate instead.......see how that goes down.
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