Just watched the first half of Property Ladder.

One of the wouldbe developers this week, a couple doing up a cottage in bedfordshire are making comedy weatching.
So far they have half demolished a period property. And are now trying to put it back together again. All whilst dreaming of fast cars and a millionare lifestyle. Quality entertainment.

They both managed to pull it off though. Although the ugly one had to use her credit cards.

Well even ms Beeney herself eluded to "a rapidly changing market" in this episode.... I also love the way these wannabe property millionaires always say "it is something i've always wanted to do" blah blah blah

Can't wait for the next series of Property ladder - hopefully we may start seeing some of these amatures loose money... reality TV - love it!

Bungalow in Wroxham, Norfolk still for sale on right move at £320 - accepting an offer is one thing - it going through to completion is another! still I am sure these property developers know what there doing???????????????

Can you find the other one too?

Not on rightmove, but the house Sarah B took them to view is still on as stc. maybe they have been luck or they are selling with agents who dont use r-move. If you can be asked have a look at agents in that area it will probably be out there somewhere.

Never understood the attraction of property development myself - though several of my clients have been quite successful at in it in the past.

Seems like of a lot of hassle for not much reward - a lot of the "wannabees" would have earned more stacking shelves in a supermarket by the time you have converted the time spent into an hourly wage.

Why would that be?

Thats the one who finished the development by using her CC's that I mentioned above:lol:

Anyone know when those programmes were made?

Utterly unbelivable how incompetent people are - the woman who made 74k but still ignored pretty fundamntal advice from Sarah Beenie about the layout.

Who made 74k?

The Shillington woman. She really is absolutely gormless. How did she ever get a PHD. Doesn't she remind you all of the Honey Monster!

The series is "revisited" and most of the stuff goes back to 2002/03/04. There is (no surprise) nothing recent. Hasn't Beeny been quoted as saying there's notr money left to be made in property??

Special Thanks To
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Anyone emailing them to ask about the properties?
(email on the link)

Didn't the blond one - you know, bought a bargain bathroom saving 100 and cost 3,000 to install? thought she made 74k?

The woman who laughed a lot - their extension - did it need planning permission?

You know whats even funnier than these amateur developers?















Wage slaves who live thier lives poking fun at people taking a commercial gamble. Deep down you envy these peoples bottle & resolve.

5 years from now I wonder if any of the usual bears will have grasped the nettle of endeavour? Or will it be same old same old?

My part time business (involving about as much work as being a landlord does) gives very good returns thank you very much and I don't have to spend every waking hour groveling around in dirt and dust. Mind you, they do say that they enjoy it. It's everyones dream job isnt it.

The house is still for sale I believe.

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/viewdetails-933...pa_n=1&tr_t=buy

She's made 0k until she sells it.


While we're on the subject; this is the one thing that really irks me about this programme. Beeney tells everyone how well they have done when infact an estate agents valuation is not cash in the bank, they have to sell them first; the do up costs are not verified and the cost of the renovator's time and materials is not included.

Would be very interesting to go back to the properties over the last 12 months and work out what the perceived profit was against reality, that's if they have sold at all.

Don't get me wrong, I've nothing against property renovation (I have done it myself) but I think this programme is cavalier in its ramping of how good profits are.

Lets get this straight, these muppets bought a period cottage, ripped out all the orginal floorboards and plaster ( against Sarahs advice and when the building regs people there was no need ), did all the work themselves, including specialist jobs like lime plastering, with no research ( or survey ) either into using the materials or how to tastefully renovate this type of property or the state of the market . Went completely over budget, by 60%, and completely over schedule, by 160%. And they still made money - 20k ( before tax ) for 8 months of back breaking work.

They were a joke, and the market that allows idiots like this to make money by fvcking up a lovely period property is a joke. I am in the process of doing a self build. If I approached my project in the same manner these clowns did, I wouldnt be allowed. Why should property flippers who are actually damaging the housing stock with their work be allowed to?

You forgot they spent on their CC to finish it.

Thank you Sarah.

And they fvucked up their finances, muppets in a muppet market. Pahh!

And no mention of the CGT they would liable for. that's if they sold it of course.

I noticed a comment the "Honey Monster" made early on in the programme.She said:

"We've paid £106,000 for a bundle of sticks"

Wonder how that guy can wake up next to it every morning. The laugh alone is enough to put you off. She must do a good line in BJ's!

Ph.Ds are easy to get - it's just a question of hanging around at university when you should have gone home when you graduated. 2 years of doing useless research then a really big essay.
All the people at Bath who stayed on to do Ph's were chip-on-shoulder types (Northerners, you know the sort) who want to be called 'Doctor' like they're in Brief Encounter or something.

"Look Mam - I'm a doctor now! That'll show them posh basstards"

No Dogbox this country is full of entrepreneurs who are willing to take risks. By your assumption that the property market will continue to rise inexorably in perpetuity then the bears are the ones taking the financial risk. Not you.

Destroying period property and then saying the whole exercise is an unqualified success although the woman is paying 15.9% to finance the "development" through her credit cards is not a bear/bull argument. Even in a flat or falling market an astute purchase at an auction or of a "difficult" property and then some assiduously-costed development and a realistic sale price can produce a reasonable return.

Being sponsored and nannied by a TV company, over budget and over schedule and then finding yourself in hock to a credit card company for a house on which you have overspent and cannot sell is not clever or brave. Its just stupid.

However there is now an assumption in this country that everyone has a right to make money from property just as there was with TMT stocks in 2001, property in 1988 and stocks and shares in 1987. Oh and tulips and the South Sea Bubble for our older readers.

I don't think even our Charlie is quite old enough to remember those....

i can't believe the prices quoted for new kitchens/bathrooms etc. even the cheapest kitchens from B & Q are more than some of the fancy kitchens shown on property ladder.
there is a list of all the suppliers channel4 would like to thank,free advertising in exchange for goods at a fraction of the real cost?

It would be treated as income, not a capital gain............

If only every business was as infallible as property development, then:

- everyone would be millionaires, even people as retarted as the denizens of Property Ladder and Homes Under the Hammer
- people could go into business with no plan or strategy and still make money
- unnecessary expenditure could be justified on taste grounds
- negative cashflow would be regarded as a viable business model
- borrowing at 29% apr would be considered a good way to finance your venture

How does that work then?

Why do you say that? It would be treated as a capital gain unless they could convince HMRC they were conducting a trade. On the assumption they have other earned income why would they want to do that? CGT allowance is £8500 pa with the balance taxed at taxpayers marginal rate.

They've only made £10k each before they've cleared the CC so that allowance is kind of generous!

First of all - are you people serious. Apart from the unwarranted insults which are just childish - do you guys honestly believe that out of the 35 hours of footage they filmed - a 30 minute Property Ladder slot with a voice over recorded the week before the program went out accurately portrays these developments - come on some storylines in eastenders are more believable than this.

To set the record straight on a few points

SarahBell - "their extension - did it need planning permission?"

Yes it did - and we got it as well as full architects drawings and building regs approval for the entire development - this was conveniently left out of the show. Sarahs advice to build the extension came months after we had initially researched and discounted it - although she did make us reconsider our decision.

Lord Lucan - "but I think this programme is cavalier in its ramping of how good profits are."

To a certain extent yes - although the prices they quote on the show are the prices the developers would have paid retail - not the prices they actually paid (the advantage of being on tv is that certain companies are prepared to give decent discounts).

murpaul - Lets get this straight, these muppets bought a period cottage, ripped out all the orginal floorboards and plaster ( against Sarahs advice and when the building regs people there was no need )

10/10 for observation - well done. Except......... If you watch the show closely - you will see that the first interview that we conducted with sarah was weeks after the plaster had been stripped - the bare laths behind us kind of give it away. Sarah never saw the cottage in its original form. We were actually advised by professional lime plaster restorer that the plaster in the house was beyond saving.

Also - much of the plaster wasnt plaster at all - but plasterboard, fibreboard especially in the kitchen) and concrete render. The cottage had been patched up so many times in the past that what was left wasnt worth saving anyway.

As for the floor boards - we had no choice. many of the joists below were rotten and riddled with woodworm, as were many of the boards - the boards simply splintered when we tried to lift them carefully and we had to make a decision as to whether to persevere and try to save as much as possible or to our losses (and save time). As an example of how bad things were - we gained 8 inches of head room in the living room by simply adding straight joists - since the old joists had bowed so much.

We did save the good joists and reused them in the walls where wall timbers had rotted. The back wall of the house had almost completely disintegrated as the existing extension had leaked and rotted the timbers - we pretty much rebuit this wall (omitted from the show).

We also had to strip the end wall of the house of its exterior render as there were gaping holes in it - we rebuilt this wall using exterior ply and a paint on exterior render - non of this was shown in the show - neither was the fact that we vaulted the upsatirs ceilings.

murpaul - "....did all the work themselves, including specialist jobs like lime plastering, with no research ( or survey ) either into using the materials or how to tastefully renovate this type of property"

Whats wrong with doing specialist jobs yourself. We did tons of research including consulting experts, reading and going on courses (despite what sarahs voice over said). What was distasteful about how the property turned out? We restored the original inglnook fireplace, replaced the traditional plaster after ripping out the bodge job plasterboard and concrete render and we reused as much of the original structure as we could salvage. We also tried to replace materials with like for like where possible - hence the reason the entire property (except for bathroom and kitchen) was relaid with solid oak flooring

Sarah advised us not to bother with lime plaster and do it on the cheap with plasteboard - against the advice of a conservation expert who advised us that to maximise the life of the timber structure - it had to be allowed to breath and therefore restoring the lime plaster was the best option.

murpaul - "Went completely over budget, by 60%, and completely over schedule, by 160%."

Yep - and. It was a learning excercise. We made mistakes - sure

murpaul - "They were a joke, and the market that allows idiots like this to make money by fvcking up a lovely period property is a joke."

Lovely period cottage??? did you even watch the show - I have plenty of photos to prove the condition this property was in (see attachment [attachmentid=4328]) - and it was far from lovely.

mupaul - "I am in the process of doing a self build. If I approached my project in the same manner these clowns did, I wouldnt be allowed. Why should property flippers who are actually damaging the housing stock with their work be allowed to?"

Dont even go there - we had building regs involved at every stage to approve the work as we went (footage conveniently omitted from the show) and had experts in where relevent (electrician, plumber, architect). We didnt do anything that would have jepardised the property without first consulting with the people in the know and getting adise on how best to proceed.

SarahBell - "You forgot they spent on their CC to finish it."

Wonderfull things CC cheques giving 0% for 6 months

foxytrader - "Destroying period property and then saying the whole exercise is an unqualified success although the woman is paying 15.9% to finance the "development" through her credit cards is not a bear/bull argument."

See above

foxytrader - "Being sponsored and nannied by a TV company"

Err - there was no sponsorship - where did you get this from.

foxytrader - "finding yourself in hock to a credit card company for a house on which you have overspent and cannot sell is not clever or brave. Its just stupid."

Perhaps you should get your facts straight. We had viewings before filming was even complete. We had an offer the week before the show went out and had completed within 2 months. The housing market was not particularly boyant at the time either - in fact, if you look on rightmove - the prices in the area have barely moved since we sold it.

Anyway - here are before and after shots of the living room so you can judge for yourself how successful we were.

[attachmentid=4332][attachmentid=4333]

To the minority who voiced their support for us - thanks.

For the rest - I really think you need to ligthen up and watch a little less TV.

Thanks for the insider view. It does not make for good TV viewing if you don't need Ms Beenys help or advice and if you don't fvck things up. The UK public don't want to see someone doing well :-)

I agree with your use of the CC cheques @ 0% interest for 6 months - best short term loan available out there! and good to see that you recognise that it was a sharp learning curve and you have learned from your mistakes.

Hi Moony
Thanks for this additional information. Looks like you guys did a hell of a job and you have every right to be pleased with yourself.
Some questions, though, for a would-be "buy a wreck and fix it up" merchant like me.
Speaking purely from the economics of the venture:

1. Have you sold it yet? If so, was it at a level that paid dividends? Di you cover all the costs?
2. What kind of initial survey did you get? Did it pick up on everything? If not, what % of the final spend did the survey "predict"?
3. Any howlers you _really_ didnt see coming?
4. Would you do it again - all things being equal?

Some context - round our way there are "done up" houses for £250/sqft, wrecks for £120/sqft and then everything in between.
My taste is for the older houses like your one. Any hints or tips would be most appreciated.

Interesting how the bears have riddiculed and sneered at these 'amateurs' on HPC for the last 3 years. What drives this jealous streak in bearish types?

Amateurs may be clumsy but at least they dare to have a go whilst the pessimists stick to fiddling with savings accounts and other easy to do non - scary money production excercises.

Well done and well said.

Moony Ive been jousting with pessimists for a long time on this site. They consider themselves realists and all others 'muppets'. This is driven by very deep rooted insecurity.

Cheers

1. Yes we sold it immediately - couple of viewings, then an offer - accepted the first offer as it was within a couple of grand of asking price

2. We didnt have an initial survey at all. If we had of done - we probably would have been scared off taking the property on in the first place. Then again - most problems in the property were obvious (plaster falling off walls, significant damp problem, rotten windows, woodworm etc)

3. Plenty of those. The structural damage to the timber was far worse than we had hoped. Working on the end wall of the house was a joke (they didnt show that on the program) - I had a gap of about 11 inches between us and next door in which to hoist 8x4 sheets of 18mm exterior ply - 10ft up in the air whilst wedged between the timber frame and next doors wall - that was fun and set us back months because it was such a difficult and slow process. When we had the extension built - it absolutely bucketted it down and flooded the ground floor. I almost fell through the joists an countless occasions - and when I really got going with the lime plaster, everything got plastered.

4. Not to sell on. It was far too much work, especially working full time whist doing it. The project was partly an excercise in seeing what was possible. We have only ever bought new houses (due to circumstance more than anything) but would like someting in the future that has a bit more character and land. We wanted to see how feasable it was for us to take on a doer-upper and do some of the work ourselves to keep costs down - hence the reason we tried to do as much as possible ourselves. I would definately lime plaster again - as the material is wonderful to work with and gives a really nice finish - but i`d definately get more help for the heavy building work and joinery.

Any tips - well I dont realy think i`m qualified to be giving tips out - but one thing I would say is dont be afraid of using traditional building materials where appropriate and having a go yourself. There are courses for all sorts of things out there - you can just book on them and have a go if you are unsure of your ability - thats what we did with the lime plaster. The key with that stuff is - dont rush it. We saw the damage that using modern building materials can do to an old property if used inappropriately.

Cheers

Firstly, thanks for giving us behind the scenes info. But how do you expect the public to get their 'facts straight'? Property porn has portrayed property development as a no brainer and an easy route to riches; I don't remember the program, but i'm sure the comments made are the type of off cuff comments that everyone makes regrading these programs. Maybe property porn programs should have stricter rules, after all such programs involving shares would be heavily regulated.

We are glad we did it - it was worth it, but perhaps not for the obvious reasons. We made some good contacts (plumbers, builders etc) who we know we can trust to do a good job and who i`d fell happy reccomending - that alone is worth a lot.

Saying that though - we did take on too much and I would definately do it differently given what we know now, but thats what learning is all about.

Moony

Speaking as a property bear on this site, please know that many of us are not bearish in every aspect of life, regardless of what Dogbox believes. My wife and I are planning to start our own business in September, hardly the plans of scared pessimists I think you'd agree.

As regards your property renovation project, it sounds to me like you learned a lot of lessons and ultimately did a great job. I particularly applaud your decision to stick with traditional building materials, especially the lime plaster, which as I understand it is much better for the environment and lasts for centuries. Well done for having a go yourself.

If there was thing that I thought bordered on being crazy, it was your decision not to bother with a survey...that was just plain bonkers!

Your first post on this site in response to the critics is a model of restraint and is a credit to you, hopefully you'll stick around.

Cheers

X-Q

Dont get me wrong - we didnt realise how skewed their portrayal was either, until we actually featured in the show and probably had a good laugh at others expense in the past too.

However some of the insults being thrown around this board are far too personal and just downright childish.

Some of our comments and antics on camera were clearly us taking the p*** and acting up to the camera - at least thats what we thought........ oh well.



Thanks - and BTW, i`m not familiar with the Bear/Other thingy - what do they mean (i choose bear when I registered but dont know what it means)

Yep - no survey = bonkers. Then again if we'd had one done - we probably wouldnt be having this conversation. The house had recently had a new roof and the other issues we thought were pretty obvious (damp, woodworm, blown plaster etc) but it was far worse than we originally thought - but we live and learn.

If anyone is interested - i`m planning to put a load of photographs and possibly some plans of the house up on the web - showing the various stages of development (loads more than than was shown on the telly). I`ll post the link when they are up.

Property Bear = Someone who believes we are likely to see a downward correction in prices

Property Bull = Someone who believes prices will continue to rise

Neither = Fence sitters or trolls

Ah - I get it now - thanks

Not bonkers. Like u say you might not have done it had you had a full survey. A lot of the pessimists here are pure logical beasts. They think business is all about graphs and research.

Who reseurrected this thread from 2005? Its good to hear from someone who is on the show though, I do remember the programme and as ther people have said you can only get a feel over a 30 minute show.

As promised - here are some piccies of the development.

Please excuse the state of the site at the moment - I threw this togather in about 2 hours this evening.

http://www.stormloader.com/users/moony/Index.html

Only the "before" pictures seem to work for me.