I was looking at investing in a new development on the marina called the torch, it's complete in late 2007. I would be interested to hear from anyone who has invested there or is thinking of investing. Has the bubble burst, is it still good value, are you hoping to realise future gain due to the huge inwards investement etc? What about the inward investment there, to make it number one visted tourist destination?

Following on from our previous conversation. I never said the term sheikh could be applied to ANYONE, but could be applied to 100s of 1000s of people. Your own dictionary definition proves that as its says 'leader or head of arab village'. There must be 100s of 100s of these across the arab world. Do you agree or not? Also children and grandchildren of these people will carry the same name.

At least admit you are wrong, you may then retain a modicum of credibilty. If not admit YOU are an asshat, whatever that is??

Ok keep having an imaginary discussion then

I'm afraid I have no idea what 'asshat' or 'nerfed' mean! Are they ancient Arabic as heard from 'some sheik'?

It seems you know very little.

LOL why don't you both just get married FFS !!

Anyway, I worked in Dubai for a short contract about 3 years ago - although I had initial thoughts of "Wow this frikkin place is amazing & I'm gonna stay here forever" ..... they quickly waned as I considered :-

1) The place is so god damn hot for most of the year ....
2) Back then (shortly after 911) I saw the area as a perfect target for CONTINUOUS Terrorism - unstable neighbours, massive divide between rich & poor, jekyl & hyde culture clash, burgeoning perception of becoming westerners playground, unscrupulous and biased legal system, LOTS of "smart money" pouring in looking to Profit then Piss Off, etc etc
3) The "real" economy was made of thin air - once Oil revenues have depleted they reckon that being a Tourist/Conference/Shopping mecca will keep them flouting ..... maybe it will ..... for a while ...... but not permanantly ...... and if there is a global recession Dubai is a sitting duck ......
4) Lack of any real "indiginous" industrial infra-structure/research/development ..... all overly service related .....
5) This may be slightly racist, but from what I saw the Arab work ethic is virtually non-existant - possibly due to years of a lax tax regime and of course billions just pouring out of the ground .....

IMHO, Dubai is without question riding the present economic bubble to the most dangerous extreme ...... with possibly the loudest bang when things eventually burst

Perfectionist,

Could you answer a few questions about Dubai for me - I went out there in 2000 for a very short time and came away very disappointed - I went basically to see what the fuss was about, to see whether I could get work there.

I found the place unbearably hot, nothing to do, teeming with people from India and hardly any actual natives out during the day (apparently they sleep during the day and come out at night). The genuine Rolexs (which I was hoping to buy) were NO cheaper than the UK and the so often boasted/bragged about duty free was ABSOLUTE CACK.

Work seemed like a no-no (cheap indians/phillipeanos etc took care of that).

I came away thinking 'hype, hype, hype'.

Very disappointing (still disappointed to this day).

Great minds think alike Dubai was great to visit but I was glad to leave it behind !

Yup, the actual arabs are few and far between - they own virtually everything, either officially or "unofficially" .... and use third world labour almost like slave drivers ......

I went with a small team on secondment to assess/advise on their banking/finance sector ..... in the highly qualified fields there is plenty of money to be made but to move up into the higher circles did seem to be more about Who you know rather than What you know, incidentally the gossip I heard was that the Airline was the best company to work for in the entire world (!) ???

Without qualifications - even very highly skilled jobs were going to the lowest bidder from a developing country although I did hear a lot of American accents from the Asian work force ......

However I did do a bit of shopping and have to say the prices did appear quite a lot lower than blighty - maybe brand name jewellery and designer goods are forced to be sold at similar prices in every country ??

The impression that I was left with (which seems to be agreed with whenever I speak to "informed" people who have visited the place) is that its just full of flyboys looking to make a quick buck while the gettin is good ......

Though I agree with most of your comments and would certainly not invest there now there are a few points

1) The 'govt' is investing money into what it sees as sustainable industries ie airline/tech parks/tourism//financial services. Also Dubai has always been a major port, and thats done Hong Kong etc quite well over the years.

2) The fact that they use third world 'slave labour' though perhaps unethical is not a million miles from what the UK and USA have done to great advantage.

The place is full of 'fly boys' for sure. I've met a few of them!

It will be very interesting to see what happens to Dubai over the next 5-10 years

I agree with the airport, tourism and transhipment/port, these are areas of real value to the emirate and region however on the subject of construction.

I have been living in Dubai for over 14 years, its an interesting and dynamic place but unfortunately is trying develop a 20 year plan in 5 years. The area is awash in money due to the high oil prices and I guess Shk. Mo is trying to make the best of it while he can. The problem is sustainability and economic fundementals suggest that prices and rents will head south when the main thrust of construction is complete in 2007/8. However as usual Dubai may fail to deliver what it promises....a luxury lifestyle with quality construction. DAMAC is currently unable to deliver apartments to its owners due to a government refusing to release 'safety paperwork', Nakheel's build quality is now dreadful, the much touted Palm Island is effectively sinking causing many of the buildings to crack substantially ... salt water. humidity and heat are not kind to reinforced concrete and the people in the know I talk to reckon they would be lucky to last 20 years. Also lack of environmental planning has created major issues with water circulation around the 'palms' think stagnant pools, not to mention killing all marine life up and down the coast. They are suffering from their own hype with buildings not really living up to what was advertised, consider the Palm where detached buildings are less than three to four feet apart, with limited 'beach front', an upmarket council estate. Thats maybe why people are requesting their money back. I think if you want a holiday place, somewhere to come for the UK winter, it could provide some value, but don't expect significant returns and be prepared for getting stung with unforseen maintenance costs and the stress of inconclusive ownership.

Dubai has no natural justice which always favour the nationals. So don't expect if things go wrong you have the law on yourside.

Good luck.

Dubaiexpat - SPOT ON!!

only been here for over 2 years, first 6 months in love with the place, now is like being in hell....

the place is so corrupt and laws favour the locals (racism?) to such a degree that it stagnates development just like the palm sea.
Emaar, Nahkeel, etc etc are the most dishonest corrupt people on this earth, they manage their developments with a vice like grip. build quality is worse than a Darfur refugee camp and 'dirty' money is rife from russia and Iran.

luckily my business has prospered and should be clear of the place in 3-5 years.

BE WARNED - Keep away and invest at your peril. sour grapes? not at all. have worked in over 30 countries worldwide and rate them all. withjout doubt the worst place i have ever been to.....what went wrong?

Could I ask what your business is ......

I have read this article on www.azhom.com.
I wanted to know your opinion. It is my impresion that commercial and residential property are still bringing high returns to those who opted for renting their properties in Dubai

"The general trend in the global real estate market is that the biggest volume of the investments is concentrated towards the commercial property.



Dubai is not by far an exception to the general rules. Latest researches present Dubai as the second largest construction site in the world for commercial office property.

According to Colliers International, Dubai is in front of other cities such as Beijing and Shanghai with an estimated 24 million square feet of commercial property construction. First place is occupied by Moscow, Russia with an estimated 26.90 million square feet.



The commercial property including office and retail space is set to dominate the returns for investors in 2007 and 2008. Demand from existing companies as well as the influx of new businesses is projected to remain strong for the near future, while the supply of office and retail spaces for Dubai will fall short of demand. As a result, the commercial rents, especially for class A spaces will continue the ascendant trend.



One of the greatest advantages of Dubai as compared to other metropolises is the development of “cities within the city” where people can live and work without a need to commute. Some of them are already functional such as Media City, Internet City. DIFC will be the financial hub.



Regarding the rent for commercial properties, the trend is ascendant with investors making around 12 per cent returns. An A class office is estimated at around Dhs 145 per sq. feet and can reach up to Dhs 200 per sq. feet.



Once the new developments will enter the market, a determinant factor in the rents to be charged will be the location of a particular commercial property. Top locations such as Sheikh Zayed Road and Business Bay (when ready) will most probably continue to bring attractive returns for investors. Present returns on commercial property are estimated at around 12-14%.



According to Colliers International the struggle to find commercial space continues in Abu Dhabi as well, with vacancy rates being only around 1%. The lack of prime quality space is still a problem.



“Planned projects indicate that approximately 500,000 square metres of office space will be added in the market between 2007 – 2011."

I have some probably stupid questions: who is expected to live in all these buildings in UAE (Dubai, Ajman, Abu Dhabi,etc)? Tourists, workers, residents?

What kind of tourism is expected in Dubai? The weather seems to be brutal for 8-9 months per year. Are the enternaining activities in Dubailand going to be indoors?

Hey Catara,

there’s no such thing as a stupid question…you’re right, the weather in Dubai is a killer a lot of the time and so yes, much of Dubailand is planned to be undercover.

The project will include the creation of 6 themed ‘worlds’ and within each there will be various attractions. Things like the desert safari in the Eco Tourism World will of course be out in the open but Dubailand will also feature the world’s largest shopping mall and other things that will be entirely undercover and air-conditioned.

From what I’ve read, Dubai estimates that by 2010 however much of Dubailand is operational by then will be drawing in 15 million tourists annually and ultimately I think they want to get 200,000 visitors through the gates a day. I’m not saying this is what will happen - I’m just saying that that’s their current plan.

Tourists from Asia, Europe and other GCC countries are being named as the likely visitors to Dubailand.

Regarding your other question about who’s going to be living in all these uber-luxurious properties throughout the region – well, expatriate professionals I guess, but how many of us are there!

Further discussion at
http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/ind...showtopic=49953

I am glad this topic was opened up.

I have never been to dubai...

and I agree that gulf arab culture is much more laid back.. It will adapt eventually. Gulf arabs have had a relatively non industrial existance until they started dubai. Mainly pearl divers, bedouins ectr.. And the culture is more of a friendly culture of making friends and not really getting on with business.

I have also been thinking about investing in dubai. I have it on good authority that their are still some good investments out there.. Such as sports city.. and the cheaper 1 beds. This is where the more middle income will be living in 1 bedrooms with their families and yes children. People from the arab world, india.. ectr have been moving into 1 beds in international city despite having a waft of the sewage plant next door.

And big banks are moving into dubai.. and they will gladly pay the prices for such high quality accommodation.

The question is WHEN to buy! Now or after the market stagnates a bit and one can get a good deal. And WHAT to buy?

I'd love to know who "on good authority" gave you that advice !! A lovely VI no doubt !!

Dubai is at best a White Elephant and at worst a ticking time-bomb .....

Such high quality? You really haven't been to Dubai.

The places are built by illiterate borderline slave labour, so it's not really surprising that people don't give a toss about quality while they're building. Nothing is finished on time, and when it is finished, they are cracks and the walls are not even close to vertical in some cases. Villas are probably the worst, what with roofs that are not waterproof at all (hey, it only rains couple of times per year, so you only get flooded and need to redecorate couple of times each year max).

Middle income people simply cannot live in Dubai anymore, so the middle classes are just leaving when their landlord forces them out. It's just not possible for the average middle income person to save any money so they'll just up and leave.

I'm only here as a tax-free vehicle for my company. And if prices keep rising, I'll just end up in RAK or somewhere cheaper (which sucks even more badly, but I'll be rich enough to spend more time away from the sandlands then).

When you see all the subprime stuff on TV in the US and then look at the endless building, empty apartment blocks and ridiculously unsustainable price rises, you cannot see anything other than a train wreck waiting to happen.

They are not going to run out of desert anytime soon and everywhere you see nothing but cranes. When this stuff comes on line, there is going to be the mother of all gluts. The only thing keeping prices up at presence is the sheer incompetence of the developers to deliver projects on time.

Dubai's MO is to promise the world and then deliver something akin to the isle of wight about 30 months after it was supposed to be ready.

Of course, if the apartment was late, you could go to court. But you'd be wasting your time and it would be an expensive way to discover that the legal system is virtually non-existent.

I personally would not invest more than 5% of my net worth in anything that I could not up and take with me out of the place.

hmmm - i was thinking bout dubai also but the above post by george has put me right off :-)

Go and look yourself. Last summer you could get a return air fare and 3 nights accommodation for about 300 quid (because nobody wants to be there in the summer).

However, I agree 100% with George. It's pass-the-parcel with property there, 80% "purchased" by flippers.

The show houses and flats look good, but we know two people who bought, and both suffered extensive damage the first day they had rain (2cm!).... and a real bunfight to get developers to put things right.

The build quality of some developments is questionable and I don't see some of them being around in 20 years.

But do your own research!

I'm a reporter for a radio program in the US called "Marketplace." We cover business and finance and are currently working on a series about the Middle East. In short, I'm traveling to Dubai in January to interview expats who have been disappointed by their property investments there -- homes or offices they've bought for their own use, or properties that they intended to rent or flip. I've been reading the threads about Dubai on this forum and the recurring problems seem to be construction delays and substandard workmanship. In any case, if you have a story like that, or know someone who does, please get in touch with me at scole@americanpublicmedia.org

I'm also looking for people who have the opposite perspective, i.e. people who have been happy with their property investments in Dubai or who just think the complaints are overblown. Either way, please write to me.

Also, if you have a story to tell, but would rather not use your name, I'm open to that.

Any help at all would be most appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Best,

-- Sean.

http://marketplace.publicradio.org/

http://marketplace.publicradio.org/tools/s...hp?aut_id=30185