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OzzMosiz
QUOTE(gone west @ Sep 26 2005, 11:58 PM) *
Up about $2.50 today. Gold will probably fall back to $440/oz when CBs start selling soon. After they are done, expect gold to start making new highs again (over $470/oz).


Trying to get a grasp of this. 'When CBs start selling soon' = who is CBs ?
DrBubb
CB's = Central Banks

= = =

GOLD MOVES FAST...

What will surprise some, is how incredibly FAST prices moved up in Dec.1979 and Jan.1980:

.
1979= http://www.kitco.com/LFgif/au1979D.gif
.
1980= http://www.kitco.com/LFgif/au1980D.gif

To summarise:
On 10.Dec 1979, the price of gold was $431.15.
Just 19 trading days later, on 21.Jan 1980 the price of gold was $850.
That's a move of $419 and 97% in less than 6 weeks.

Gold can move, friends!

Now that move was largely due to shock events. Oil prices shot up to near $40, and the US hostages were taken in Iran, and the world for a few weeks seemed to be on the brink of a War. Had President Carter reacted as Prsident Bush II, we may have had one.
DRS
So is it exploding/rocketing/imploding/flying? Do we have a blue moon scenario? laugh.gif laugh.gif
gone west
QUOTE(DRS @ Sep 27 2005, 12:39 PM) *
Do you mind if I ask whether you have made any money out of investing in gold?

No. I don't mind at all. I moved some US equities over to gold when it was about $416. I bought some more gold at $427. Now gold is around $463 an ounce. So I made about $9000 over my US equity position, which has remained flat. A return of about 10% (in USD terms) since Feb. But as DrBubb points out, gold can also move fast!

The prudent investor has at least 5% of their portfolio in gold or gold equity. It is a decent and proven inflationary hedge.
Tim M
QUOTE(DRS @ Sep 28 2005, 03:39 AM) *
Do you mind if I ask whether you have made any money out of investing in gold?



My gains on gold mining shares - Newcrest was bought about 2 months ago, Resolute about 3 weeks ago-

Stock Description Purchase Price Last Price Units Market Value Profit / Loss
RESOLUTE MINING FPO 1.07 1.365 8,127 11,093 2,397 27.57% gain
NEWCREST MINING FPO 15.97 20.160 700 14,112 2,933 26.24% gain
DRS
Thanks for replying.

Gone W, may I ask more? Do you mean you have made $9000 profit after buying and selling costs including vat(or equiv)? You say a prudent investor should have 5% of funds in gold. Does that mean you have circa $1.8 million to play with in total?

Tim, the % increases are impressive. May I ask the total increase in £ or $

Thanks
gone west
QUOTE(DRS @ Sep 28 2005, 01:01 PM) *
Thanks for replying.

Gone W, may I ask more? Do you mean you have made $9000 profit after buying and selling costs including vat(or equiv)? You say a prudent investor should have 5% of funds in gold. Does that mean you have circa $1.8 million to play with in total?

Thanks

We are entering sensitive territory here. $9000 was profit, after costs. Since I am also invested in gold equity, I am currently holding about 3% of my portfolio in actual gold using a Gold ETF as it is cheaper and safer than holding the physical. I will leave you to figure out the maths, but you are on the right track biggrin.gif . Let me point you to another website that I like to visit, to get the gist of where I am coming from:

The Retire Early Home Page
DRS
QUOTE(gone west @ Sep 28 2005, 09:57 PM) *
We are entering sensitive territory here. $9000 was profit, after costs. Since I am also invested in gold equity, I am currently holding about 3% of my portfolio in actual gold using a Gold ETF as it is cheaper and safer than holding the physical. I will leave you to figure out the maths, but you are on the right track biggrin.gif . Let me point you to another website that I like to visit, to get the gist of where I am coming from:

The Retire Early Home Page


Thank you. I won't delve any deeper. I shall have a look at the website tommorrow. Its title is defo very appealing
smile.gif
longjohn
QUOTE(Riser @ Sep 20 2005, 08:35 PM) *
From Kitco - Interesting battle on POG in New York Access market after the FED decision to raise US interest rates, speculation that an anti-gold derivative may be close to blowing up.


So eight days after this post, we learn that Fannie Mae's accounts are an even bigger mess than we already knew. My bet is that Fannie is the anti-gold derivative owner.

Fannie's execs have long said that they hedge their mortgage risk using derivatives. But they always go silent when asked what kind of derivatives.

My guess is that their accounts were a mess (an Enron-style mess) but that the constant rise in gold's price makes that mess more complicated even as the Feds try to clean up the previous mess. Hence today's announcement. Just speculating!
Riser
QUOTE(longjohn @ Sep 29 2005, 04:49 AM) *
So eight days after this post, we learn that Fannie Mae's accounts are an even bigger mess than we already knew. My bet is that Fannie is the anti-gold derivative owner.

Fannie's execs have long said that they hedge their mortgage risk using derivatives. But they always go silent when asked what kind of derivatives.

My guess is that their accounts were a mess (an Enron-style mess) but that the constant rise in gold's price makes that mess more complicated even as the Feds try to clean up the previous mess. Hence today's announcement. Just speculating!


No prizes for guessing who will be buying Fannie's this morning after yesterdays 10% fall.

Following was on ADVFN "READY TO BLASTOFF" sounds good cool.gif

QUOTE
Gold futures climb above $475 for the first time in a week By Myra P. Saefong
SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- December gold is up $2 at $475.10 an ounce in morning dealings, trading above the $475 mark for the first time in a week. "The brief period of selling is behind us and the precious metals, with a little help from the dollar, are ready for blastoff," said Dale Doelling, chief market technician at Trends In Commodities. December silver is up 8.2 cents at $7.485 an ounce and December copper was down 0.8 cent at $1.74 a pound.
Durch
I guess this is the one place I am allowed to say how happy I am with my gold holdings.

With sterling falling against the dollar, and the dollar gold price rising. Well I've never made so much money on a daily basis in my life, even during the peak of the housing boom, nothing like this, and that was leveraged.

biggrin.gif
cgnao
As I see it, gold and silver are money. GBP, USD and any other currency are just paper. All of them are depreciating fast against true money. Any profits measured in terms of paper money are just an illusion.

Suppose you hold 1 oz of gold and £268. The value in gold today is 2 oz and your allocation is 50% gold 50% cash.

Suppose now gold goes up 10% to £295. You still hold 1 oz and £268. The value in gold is 1.91 oz. You have lost 4.5% of your capital measured in gold.

Got gold?
Pent Vaer
cgnao. while you're still hanging around, thanks for all your gold
commentary and advice over the months.

Pent
Riser
QUOTE(longjohn @ Sep 29 2005, 04:49 AM) *
So eight days after this post, we learn that Fannie Mae's accounts are an even bigger mess than we already knew. My bet is that Fannie is the anti-gold derivative owner.


From Kitco - More unusual trading patterns today this time on the US 10year treasury note, are the wheels starting to come of the wagon. Its like a pip in a vice you can almost taste the pressure behind it cool.gif

What do you think Dr B evidence of panic behind the green curtain or just glitches in the plots?

!0 Year Treasury

Click to view attachment10 Year Treasury

Click to view attachmentThe other day it was gold
Durch
QUOTE(Riser @ Sep 29 2005, 05:32 PM) *
From Kitco - More unusual trading patterns today this time on the US 10year treasury note, are the wheels starting to come of the wagon. Its like a pip in a vice you can almost taste the pressure behind it cool.gif

What do you think Dr B evidence of panic behind the green curtain or just glitches in the plots?

!0 Year Treasury

Click to view attachment10 Year Treasury

Click to view attachmentThe other day it was gold

God, I hope so Riser! (It would make sense of a lot of "reality" that is creeping into the media at the moment - softening us up for bad news, and maybe hoping to lay the blame at the door of these Caribbean-hedge-fund-Wall-Street-types when the truth comes out.)

Anyway, if not now, sooner or later. Nature will out.

QUOTE(cgnao @ Sep 29 2005, 03:54 PM) *
As I see it, gold and silver are money. GBP, USD and any other currency are just paper. All of them are depreciating fast against true money. Any profits measured in terms of paper money are just an illusion.

Suppose you hold 1 oz of gold and £268. The value in gold today is 2 oz and your allocation is 50% gold 50% cash.

Suppose now gold goes up 10% to £295. You still hold 1 oz and £268. The value in gold is 1.91 oz. You have lost 4.5% of your capital measured in gold.

Got gold?

I agree cgnao. All my accessible cash (my STR proceeds and more) except six month's "ready cash" is in the G-stuff.

You might have read my "zen" post. My gold wealth is fixed, only the paper numbers go up and down. (And in gold terms, UK house price crash is an ongoing reality - up to several percent per day!)
malco
Durch/CGNao, this is the first time in my life I have ever "played the market" - and I, the naivest guy you could imagine, got it right when the world was looking the other way. I am haunted by the thought that for the rest of my life I'll constantly chase ideas to repeat this dream and never get there ag#ain. Beginner's Luck is a curse.

But I am not really playing the market - I looked about for a way of doing more for my money than stuffing it in my bank account, and what I learned scared me. I saw that the banks weren't really as robust as those heavy stone walls make them look. None of them have factored Peak Oil into their predictions. I was scared into gold. I have bought some Swiss Francs too, on the basis that at least at first there will be a flight that way before the herd goes for gold.

Ultimately I still don't see a better bet than gold/silver for the next few years (but like I said, I am naive and I know there's more out there if you look for it, or at least, I expect so).

Note that silver has gone from £3.90/ounce to £4.24/ounce just in the last 10 days. My investment in silver bars has gone up almost 10% and I haven't even received them yet!

Amazing times!

And you know, the people at my work are clueless, absolutely clueless about the drama unfolding on the gold market, a drama that will affect their lives for years.
Durch
QUOTE(Riser @ Sep 29 2005, 05:32 PM) *
From Kitco - More unusual trading patterns today this time on the US 10year treasury note, are the wheels starting to come of the wagon. Its like a pip in a vice you can almost taste the pressure behind it cool.gif

What do you think Dr B evidence of panic behind the green curtain or just glitches in the plots?

!0 Year Treasury

Click to view attachment10 Year Treasury

Click to view attachmentThe other day it was gold

If it is a bug it's gone on for a while:

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=%5ETNX&t=1d&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=

Click on the 5d view to see another interesting spike!

QUOTE(malco @ Sep 29 2005, 07:58 PM) *
But I am not really playing the market - I looked about for a way of doing more for my money than stuffing it in my bank account, and what I learned scared me. I saw that the banks weren't really as robust as those heavy stone walls make them look. None of them have factored Peak Oil into their predictions. I was scared into gold. I have bought some Swiss Francs too, on the basis that at least at first there will be a flight that way before the herd goes for gold.

That's how I see it. I'm not a trader - my job on Wall Street was long term valuation.

I'm an investor - long term, or at least until the average house priced in gold swaps from all-time high, to (or near) all-time low.
cgnao
Excerpt from http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editoria.../2005/0930.html

QUOTE
As the third quarter draws to a close the S & P 500 has managed a 3% gain, despite gold’s 8.5% rise. Some of the popular excuses offered to “explain” gold’s gain are “increased jewelry demand in India” “momentum buying from hedge funds and other speculators,” “rising demand in China,” “short-covering,” and “demand outstripping supply.”

While all of the above may in fact be true, they are merely the result, not the cause of gold’s rise. Gold is rising for one reason and one reason only, which is the same reason that gold has always risen-- INFLATION. Gold, unlike national currencies, has no yield, so its rising popularity reflects the increased perception that interest rates are not high enough to compensate for inflation. Gold’s new found strength is a sign that the world’s misplaced confidence in central bankers, and their alleged commitment to limiting the issuance of currency, is finally coming to a long overdue end.

For fiat money to maintain its value there must be a general consensus that its issuers will keep it scarce. Without such a perception, all fiat currencies will eventually decline to their intrinsic values, which is zero. Gold, on the other hand, will always be scarce, as its supply is limited by the cost to mine it. As inflation accelerates, and the world’s major central bankers look the other way, or worse deny its existence through slight-of-hand statistics, more people are re-discovering the value of gold.
DRS
So are we flying/exploding then? laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
gone west
QUOTE(DRS @ Oct 7 2005, 02:53 PM) [snapback]208730[/snapback]

So are we flying/exploding then? laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Up 0.3% today. Annualised over 250 trading days that's 75%. So, yes, it is flying/exploding! laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif tongue.gif
DRS
QUOTE(gone west @ Oct 7 2005, 11:20 PM) [snapback]208747[/snapback]

Up 0.3% today. Annualised over 250 trading days that's 75%. So, yes, it is flying/exploding! laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif tongue.gif


Excellent!! I'm off to buy gold sovereigns!! BUY BUY BUY BUY!! We need to let everybody know about this.
Do you recommend selling my house and buying gold? Where should I bury it so the govt doesn't confiscate it?? Maybe put it into condoms and shove them up my rectum?

Or do you advice to invest 5% of ones portfolio for which most people here is about £100
laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
Bart of Darkness
QUOTE(DRS @ Oct 8 2005, 09:51 AM) [snapback]208849[/snapback]


Excellent!! I'm off to buy gold sovereigns!! BUY BUY BUY BUY!! We need to let everybody know about this.
Do you recommend selling my house and buying gold? Where should I bury it so the govt doesn't confiscate it?? Maybe put it into condoms and shove them up my rectum?

Or do you advice to invest 5% of ones portfolio for which most people here is about £100
laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif


Feel free to shoot me down in flames mate, but I'm picking up just a tiny hint of sarcasm here! smile.gif

(I think the condom/rectum thing might work against burgulars but not HM Government, they're wise to that kind of subterfuge.)
DRS
QUOTE(Bart of Darkness @ Oct 8 2005, 03:37 PM) [snapback]209071[/snapback]

Feel free to shoot me down in flames mate, but I'm picking up just a tiny hint of sarcasm here! smile.gif

(I think the condom/rectum thing might work against burgulars but not HM Government, they're wise to that kind of subterfuge.)


A little sarcasm for sure. Its just that we had endless threads on gold over the last few months. People talking about it exploding/flying etc Predictions of prices etc. I just like to remind people of what they have said when they stop posting on threads they started.


smile.gif
Riser
QUOTE(Bart of Darkness @ Oct 8 2005, 03:37 PM) [snapback]209071[/snapback]

(I think the condom/rectum thing might work against burgulars but not HM Government, they're wise to that kind of subterfuge.)


Blair should certainly be an expert by now he has had his head stuck up Bush's ar** for years

As for gold it has resisted forces trying to drag it down and now appears to be attracting interest from more mainstream investors. Silver had a good day on Friday, could this ralley be the start of the boom so many have promised for so long.

Gold at 18-year high, up 1% on week

QUOTE

Silver at 7-month high, up 3% on week; copper at record
Gold has four "very positive factors going for it" at the moment, said Peter Grandich, editor of the Grandich Letter.
They are: double-digit jewelry demand growth, abundant investment demand, mine supply falling short of demand, and a "lessening negative effect of central bank sales or the talk of them," he said.
Against this backdrop, gold for December delivery added $2.70 to close at $477.70 an ounce on the New York Mercantile Exchange. It hasn't closed at a level that high since late January of 1988, according to monthly charts.
Fresh investor interest also helped December silver climb 17.5 cents to $7.77 an ounce, its highest in almost seven months. It's up 3.4% from last Friday.
"All the bad news or catalysts that would generally cause gold prices to fall have been ineffective," including falling crude prices and strength in the dollar, said John Person, president of National Futures Advisory Service.
"At this point bad news for gold has actually helped it to see price appreciations," he said. "That tells me there is room to the upside and this rally is not over and in my opinion, not by a long shot."
Looking ahead, "gold prices should continue higher into next week," Person said, with the next major price resistance level at $497-$505 level, which could hit by mid-November.


Gold is in dazzling form for the first time in 20 years, says Max King - Todays Telegraph

QUOTE
"When Gordon Brown sold half of Britain's reserves in 2000-01," says Mr Birch, "he picked the low point of the market, pretty well defining the bottom of a 22-year bear market. No other central bank got a worse price."
gone west
QUOTE(DRS @ Oct 8 2005, 01:51 AM) [snapback]208849[/snapback]

Excellent!! I'm off to buy gold sovereigns!! BUY BUY BUY BUY!! We need to let everybody know about this.
Do you recommend selling my house and buying gold?

laugh.gif No. Of course not. That would require courage and a certain strength of character of which you appear to have none. A person of your financial acumen might want to try the lottery instead. dry.gif
QUOTE

Where should I bury it so the govt doesn't confiscate it?? Maybe put it into condoms and shove them up my rectum?

Firstly, depending on the size of your rectum and the amount you invest, that might be rather painful. Secondly, I don't think that will stop the government finding it. But at least you are practising safe investing. laugh.gif

I personally don't subscribe to the gov't confiscation thing. A little too bearish for my tastes.
QUOTE

Or do you advice to invest 5% of ones portfolio for which most people here is about £100
laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

If you have a small portfolio, you must protect it as much as possible. Only you can decide how best to do that. I wouldn't look to diversify into more speculative areas unless you have at least £15000. After that (which sounds like a good deposit for an FTB), I would definitely put at least 5% (£750) into gold.

If you only have £2000 in savings, you really shouldn't be wasting your time on internet forums, should you? rolleyes.gif
DrBubb
DO BE A BIT CAREFUL from here...

October 7th, the the mean date for a Cyclical peak in Gold each year.

So cyclical forces may point down into mid-December, if we have a "normal" year.
I am expecting better than a normal year, but I bought Puts on Newmont yesterday
(as a hedge for my still-large portfolio of Gold stocks)
DRS
QUOTE(DrBubb @ Oct 8 2005, 08:09 PM) [snapback]209184[/snapback]

DO BE A BIT CAREFUL from here...

October 7th, the the mean date for a Cyclical peak in Gold each year.

So cyclical forces may point down into mid-December, if we have a "normal" year.
I am expecting better than a normal year, but I bought Puts on Newmont yesterday
(as a hedge for my still-large portfolio of Gold stocks)


Aren't you going to draw us a graph??
laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Whatever happened to the 'Dr Bubb (speaks in the third person) and calls the crash within the next few days' then? laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
gone west
QUOTE(DRS @ Oct 8 2005, 01:58 PM) [snapback]209240[/snapback]

Aren't you going to draw us a graph??
laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Whatever happened to the 'Dr Bubb (speaks in the third person) and calls the crash within the next few days' then? laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

...and your contribution to this discussion is what, exactly? Any counterargument reinforced with data? Any opposing views based on astute observations? I thought not.
DRS
QUOTE(gone west @ Oct 9 2005, 02:58 AM) [snapback]209292[/snapback]

...and your contribution to this discussion is what, exactly? Any counterargument reinforced with data? Any opposing views based on astute observations? I thought not.


Calm down dear
laugh.gif laugh.gif
gone west
QUOTE(DRS @ Oct 9 2005, 12:44 AM) [snapback]209322[/snapback]

Calm down dear
laugh.gif laugh.gif

You have earned a distinguished and seldom travelled place in my world.
DRS
QUOTE(gone west @ Oct 9 2005, 07:37 PM) [snapback]209614[/snapback]

You have earned a distinguished and seldom travelled place in my world.


So you live in your own world then?
laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
Riser
Gold starting to get mainstreem coverage - C4 News Market report included Theo Fennell which rose 21% today. The Company designs,manufactures and retails Jewellery and the likes of Elton John etc are reputed Customers.The Company retails through its own Flagship Store in Knightsbridge and another in South Kensington and also via the likes of Harrods,Selfridges and Debenhams.

Report also mentioned Gold price broke through 18 year high cool.gif

EDIT: Good discussion about merits of Gold stocks or shares here:

Gold Stocks - or Gold STACKS?

IPB Image
urban_hymn

BUGS = Basket of Unhedged Gold Stocks?

DRS
QUOTE(urban_hymn @ Oct 10 2005, 04:31 PM) [snapback]210127[/snapback]

BUGS = Basket of Unhedged Gold Stocks?


No. Insect shaped gold jewellery made by Theo Fennel. Elton John wears it.
gone west
Admittedly he has a vested interest, but Lassonde sees less central bank selling this season.

http://finance.myway.com/jsp/nw/nwdt_ge.js...i&date=20050926

QUOTE
Gold sales by Central Banks will likely decline in the near term as gold prices continue to climb, the chairman of the World Gold Council said Monday.

"There has been a turnaround in attitude," said WGC Chairman Pierre Lassonde, who is also the president of Newmont Mining Corp. (NEM) (NEM). "There will probably be less Central Bank selling going forward ... especially in Europe."


Note article is two weeks old.
cgnao
Testing 400 Euro this morning....
debtfree
The price is not stopping, in GBP its going up n up.

When do you think there will be a drop back in price ?

cgnao
I hope shortly. So I can buy some more.

This morning I sold all of my mining shares and banked an excellent profit.

I am still accumulating goldmoney and don't plan to sell any of it anytime soon.

However I am not a buyer until a significant pullback occurs.

Bart of Darkness
QUOTE
However I am not a buyer until a significant pullback occurs.


What short of price level ($ or £) would encourage you to buy?
cgnao
I'd like to see it below £250/ounce.

boredwaiting
QUOTE(cgnao @ Oct 12 2005, 07:08 PM) [snapback]211857[/snapback]

I'd like to see it below £250/ounce.


Are you buying physical gold? or on paper?

Do you trade on any one particular site? I really don't know who to use (they all look very similar). So far i have looked into deal4free etrade and barclays.
cgnao
I buy physical gold, www.goldmoney.com


OzzMosiz
I noticed on goldmoney that gold is down, is this actual gold down or due to the pound??
DrBubb
$502 an ounce ?: from PVE's Favorite Forecaster...

Dr. Murenbeeld's gold price forecast for the coming year
October 14, 2005
I got to hear Dr. Martin Murenbeeld at the Denver Gold Forum earlier this month, and, as I said last year after attending his talk, he is hands down the best gold analyst I have ever come across.

At last year’s Denver Gold Forum, Dr. Murenbeeld forecasted three possible gold prices: a low price, a most likely price and a high price. He assigned a probability to each and then calculated the weighted average gold price as his forecast for the average gold price in the year ahead. His probability weighted average gold price forecast last year was $431 an ounce.

Dr. Murenbeeld always starts his presentations by reviewing his previous forecast to see if reality had the good manners to obey him, so it was impressive to see that from the date of last year’s conference to this year’s conference the average gold price was exactly $431 an ounce.

I’m going to skip to the end of his presentation and tell you that his probability weighted average gold price forecast for the next twelve months is $502 an ounce. Now, before you dismiss this number as too low, here is what it means.

Dr. Murenbeeld always includes three possible prices with the minimum probability assigned to any price being 10%. For the next year, an average gold price of $381 an ounce was assigned a 10% probability, $470 an ounce was assigned a 47% probability, and an average gold price of $565 an ounce was assigned a 43% probability.

Assigning such a low probability to a decline in the gold price and such a high probability to a substantially higher gold price is a very bullish forecast indeed. Keep in mind that this forecast is for the average gold price over the next twelve months, so by this time next year the gold price could be substantially higher than $502 an ounce and Dr. Murenbeeld’s prediction could still be spot on.

Why is he so bullish?

Devaluation of the US dollar
Trade data suggests that the US dollar is overvalued and uncompetitive. It shows that international trade is out of equilibrium -- the result of a distortion of the dollar’s exchange rate. Since markets always try to reach equilibrium, there is pressure on the dollar to decline.

The US trade deficit with China is growing particularly ugly; it is now over $180 billion annually. In 1993 China devalued its currency relative to the dollar by about 34%. Dr. Murenbeeld argues that the renminbi now has to appreciate by at least that much against the dollar. Given that anti-China sentiment is growing in Washington with talk of protectionist duties on Chinese imports, there is no doubt the dollar will fall against the renminbi.

The US also runs a record trade deficit with Europe, to the tune of $120 billion annually. I am no fan of the euro -- it is the ultimate fiat currency -- but the trade data clearly shows that the US dollar is overvalued even against the euro.

It follows from the large trade deficits that the US should also have a current account deficit. At the moment the current account deficit is a whopping 6% of GDP and a nominal $800 billion. This implies that nearly $4 billion is pushed onto foreign exchange markets each day. Will the world continue to absorb increasing amounts of US dollars? Dr. Murenbeeld thinks not.

To date more than 50% of the capital flows required to finance the current account deficit come from (mostly Asian) central banks that buy dollars in foreign exchange markets to prevent the dollar from falling, thereby keeping their own currencies and economies competitive in the US consumer market.

As interest rates have risen, private capital flows into the US have picked up, and these are particularly important in financing the creative real estate mortgage market in the US.

In 1987 the US current account deficit reached almost 3.5% of GDP and caused the dollar to fall by more than 40%. If history is a guide, the dollar could easily fall another 15% to 25% according to Dr. Murenbeeld. I think he’s optimistic, and that the dollar could actually fall much more.

US monetary inflation
It is well understood that a decline in the US dollar will lead to higher US dollar-gold prices. But we also have to consider US monetary inflation.

The US budget deteriorated from a surplus of $255 billion in 2000 to a deficit of $430 billion last year. Larger tax receipts subsequently reduced the deficit, but Katrina et al. will most likely absorb any increase in Treasury revenues and push the deficit further into negative territory.

But that is only part of the story. Total US debt (government debt, corporate debt and household debt) is now in excess of 200% of GDP. Last time the US had this much debt relative to GDP was during the Great Depression and the result was a sharp contraction of debt.

During past economic cycles both higher oil prices and rising short-term interest rates (relative to long-term rates) played critical roles in pushing the US economy into recession. Both these factors are now present while household debt is at record levels, the debt service burden is at a record high level and the US savings rate is negative.

Demographics now come into play as the first major wave of baby-boomer retirements is coming up. Dr. Murenbeeld estimates that the US government’s net financial liabilities (gross liabilities less assets) could double in the next 25 years, and that is assuming the budget deficit comes under control.

What is the government likely to do? It has, essentially, four choices: renege on promises, cut services, raise taxes and create more money. The first three options shift the financial burden to households and that means less consumption and slower economic growth. The last option (creating more money) reduces the real value of debt. Last year Alan Greenspan suggested that the pressure of rising budget deficits could force the central bank to create more money.

Creating more money increases prices, including the price of gold. Dr. Murenbeeld has a chart showing the correlation between the gold price and money supply of the G-7 nations. There is no question in my mind that the gold price in any currency is primarily a function of the differential inflation rate of that currency versus the inflation rate of gold.

Increased gold holdings as foreign exchange reserves
According to Dr. Murenbeeld’s figures, Asian foreign exchange reserves now exceed $2.2 trillion. In total these countries have 1,932 tonnes of gold, representing only about 1.68% of their foreign exchange reserves at a gold price of $450 an ounce. The Asian central banks have not publicly shown any willingness to add to their gold reserves yet.

Should they decide to diversify into gold the impact would be staggering. If only China and Japan adopted the same 15% of reserve policy of the European Union, then they would need to buy 17,000 tonnes between the two of them. That is more gold than the Bank for International Settlements, the IMF and all the signatories to the Washington agreement own in aggregate, and it would still amount to only petty cash for Japan and China.

Turning to OPEC nations: In 1970 it took 30 barrels of oil to buy an ounce of gold, and we know that gold was undervalued in 1970. Today it takes less than 8 barrels of oil to buy an ounce of gold. OPEC countries have not publicized any desire for gold, but when OPEC foreign reserves increased from 1973 to 1981 they added 270 tonnes of gold to their reserves. If OPEC were to bring their gold reserves up to 15% of their foreign exchange reserves they would need to buy more than 1,500 tonnes of gold and, again, it would be pocket change for them.

Gold is not only inexpensive relative to oil. When the gold price is compared to the S&P500 we see that there were three stock market bubbles during the past 100 years. In all three cases the S&P500 rose dramatically relative to gold and in all cases the ratio collapsed back to unity again. It is impossible to predict at what gold price, or what level for the S&P, the two will be at unity, but history does suggest they could again reach unity. If the S&P were to stay where it is then the gold price would have to rise to $6,000 an ounce. That is not very likely, since the same conditions that would cause the gold price to rise would probably bring stock prices down, so you can pick your own favorite number between $500 an ounce and $6,000 an ounce.

@: http://www.kitco.com/weekly/paulvaneeden/oct142005.html
cgnao
QUOTE(cgnao @ Oct 12 2005, 07:53 PM) [snapback]211848[/snapback]

I hope shortly. So I can buy some more.

This morning I sold all of my mining shares and banked an excellent profit.

I am still accumulating goldmoney and don't plan to sell any of it anytime soon.

However I am not a buyer until a significant pullback occurs.


Looks like I sold my shares close to the top. We seem to be in corrective mode now.

I am going to accumulate more metal as soon as it approaches £250/ounce
cgnao
Useful sound advice from the inimitable Richard Russell

http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_05/russell101905.html

QUOTE
The next chart is a weekly chart of gold. The weekly action often overrides the daily action. On the weekly gold (RSI) remains overbought. Also, MACD is high and at a level where, in the past, gold has suffered sharp correction. If gold can work off this overbought condition without giving up too much in price, it will be an indication of impressive strength. In the meantime, hold off on buying any gold coins or gold shares until we can see how far this gold correction is going to go.

IPB Image
malco
QUOTE(cgnao @ Oct 12 2005, 08:08 PM) [snapback]211857[/snapback]

I'd like to see it below £250/ounce.


Do you think it likely gold will fall back to $250/ounce? That is, would you say such a retraction is likely within the context of a long term bull run? Seems an awful big "dip" to happen during an up ride, if it is to be an up ride.
mongoose
QUOTE(malco @ Oct 20 2005, 01:52 PM) [snapback]217369[/snapback]

Do you think it likely gold will fall back to $250/ounce? That is, would you say such a retraction is likely within the context of a long term bull run? Seems an awful big "dip" to happen during an up ride, if it is to be an up ride.


£250 oz (=$442) not $250 oz...
cgnao
I said 250 GBP, not USD. If it ever got back to 250 USD I would be borrowing as much money as I could to buy.
malco
QUOTE(cgnao @ Oct 20 2005, 04:55 PM) [snapback]217499[/snapback]

I said 250 GBP, not USD. If it ever got back to 250 USD I would be borrowing as much money as I could to buy.

Aaargh! sad.gif sad.gif What a muppet. That reminds me of the airliner that had to do an emergency landing in a field in the south of England because some chaps had filled it with US gallons instead of Imperial.

Right, yes I think you're right, a nice little dip to £250/Toz would be quite a little pre-Xmas present.
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