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#1 RockyBalboa

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 11:55 AM

Has anyone else bought a James Clow apartment?
Where are you all?
Please join in the discussion on the Titanic Quarter forum.

#2 RockyBalboa

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 11:32 AM

Has anyone else bought a James Clow apartment?
Where are you all?
Please join in the discussion on the Titanic Quarter forum.


.....so I'm the only prize plonker who bought one of these am I?????.........where are you all?

#3 Malthus

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 11:57 AM

.....so I'm the only prize plonker who bought one of these am I?????.........where are you all?


Looks like you'll have the place to yourself ;)
"You only find out who is swimming naked when the tide goes out." Warren Buffet

"We've become a nation of con men, living by selling double-glazing to each other." Fred Dibnah

" You don't like your job, you don't strike. You go in every day and do it really half-assed. That's the American way. " Homer Simpson

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Silvio Dante " Certain aspects of show business and our thing. "

#4 michealmack

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 05:46 PM

.....so I'm the only prize plonker who bought one of these am I?????.........where are you all?

afraid not i know of one other and myself that bought one of these apartments and believe me i am very worried about the whole thing. doest look like a mortgage can be got and we got a letter wrote to carson and mcdowell tellin them this and the are the least bit interested sayin thats its not really their concern and if yo didnt complete action would be taken and if action is taken i am screwed . if you and any others are willing to meet to disscuss this please let me know to get a time and a place sorted out. someone has to know something about something.

#5 RockyBalboa

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 08:33 PM

afraid not i know of one other and myself that bought one of these apartments and believe me i am very worried about the whole thing. doest look like a mortgage can be got and we got a letter wrote to carson and mcdowell tellin them this and the are the least bit interested sayin thats its not really their concern and if yo didnt complete action would be taken and if action is taken i am screwed . if you and any others are willing to meet to disscuss this please let me know to get a time and a place sorted out. someone has to know something about something.


Hi, just replied to you on the other thread aswell. Don't panic. I'm sure the solicitor has to say something like that..they're not going to make it easy are they. The fact is that the apartments are going to be valued at considerably less (50% less?) than what we have to pay for them. Surely if it goes to court someone will take pity on us. I know they need to make a profit but when they planned these apartments way back in 2003(or before) they had no idea how high the market would climb....I bet they envisaged getting a lot less for them than they actually did so I can't imagine it would hurt them too much to knock 100k or so off the price! (in fact I seem to remember that on the day i queued up to buy one of these that when they had all sold they released another batch then and there at higher prices...they had no idea they would make so much and I bet they would still be well in profit if they sold at 2005 prices). So if they take us all to court hopefully the judge will recognise they could have a healthy profit if they agree to renegotiate and sell to us at a price that will not ruin us completely/force us to go bankrupt etc. Am I being too optimistic?

Someone I have been emailing who also bought in James Clow suggested hiring a hotshot solicitor as a group..i thought this may be a good idea. Am waiting to hear back from him.

I want to meet up but in London for work at the mo. When were you thinking of?

Edited by NICKYSTAR, 12 January 2009 - 08:34 PM.


#6 Ulidia

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 09:54 PM

Surely if it goes to court someone will take pity on us. I know they need to make a profit but when they planned these apartments way back in 2003(or before) they had no idea how high the market would climb....I bet they envisaged getting a lot less for them than they actually did so I can't imagine it would hurt them too much to knock 100k or so off the price! (in fact I seem to remember that on the day i queued up to buy one of these that when they had all sold they released another batch then and there at higher prices...they had no idea they would make so much and I bet they would still be well in profit if they sold at 2005 prices). So if they take us all to court hopefully the judge will recognise they could have a healthy profit if they agree to renegotiate and sell to us at a price that will not ruin us completely/force us to go bankrupt etc. Am I being too optimistic?


I think you are being too optimistic and too simplistic. Your scenario is more of an arbitration one than one of contractual law. That's not to say that the developer will try to enforce the contract (in fact, this would likely be self-defeating where the defaulting buyer cannot complete). If the developer does try to enforce the contract in such cases, the best scenario would be that the court views the loss of the deposit as reasonable damages for the contractual default.


I would imagine that it would hurt the developer significantly to discount units to agreed buyers by an average of 100k per unit, since many developers will have projected cashflow on the basis of these sales which will have been used to fund (via bank lending) further projects.


I do genuinely have sympathy for the position that the forumers who've purchased units in James Clow / Titantic / Obel etc find themselves in but I agree with the view expressed in the other similar thread that its time for you guys to stop the theorising and start talking to the developer as its only postponing the inevitable and is in no-ones' interest (yours or the developers) in the long-run.

Edited by Ulidia, 12 January 2009 - 09:56 PM.


#7 RockyBalboa

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 10:04 PM

I think you are being too optimistic and too simplistic. Your scenario is more of an arbitration one than one of contractual law. That's not to say that the developer will try to enforce the contract (in fact, this would likely be self-defeating where the defaulting buyer cannot complete). If the developer does try to enforce the contract in such cases, the best scenario would be that the court views the loss of the deposit as reasonable damages for the contractual default.


I would imagine that it would hurt the developer significantly to discount units to agreed buyers by an average of 100k per unit, since many developers will have projected cashflow on the basis of these sales which will have been used to fund (via bank lending) further projects.


I do genuinely have sympathy for the position that the forumers who've purchased units in James Clow / Titantic / Obel etc find themselves in but I agree with the view expressed in the other similar thread that its time for you guys to stop the theorising and start talking to the developer as its only postponing the inevitable and is in no-ones' interest (yours or the developers) in the long-run.


Hi U,
yes I realise that was highly optimistic/sarcastic..just putting it out for discussion. I think it is however realistic to estimate that a flat bought for 250k in 2007 may be valued at around 150k by the lenders at the moment...a very depressing thought. I did think that we should be gearing up to talk to the developer however after hearing from the poster (michaelmack) who did contact them i'm not so sure anymore. Might just bury my head in the sand and try to enjoy life until I have to face the music...

Edited by NICKYSTAR, 12 January 2009 - 10:06 PM.


#8 Malthus

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 10:35 PM

I think it is however realistic to estimate that a flat bought for 250k in 2007 may be valued at around 150k by the lenders at the moment...a very depressing thought.


They were never "worth" 250k, impo off plan flats that were marketed at these prices at the peak will soon be changing hands for less than 100k
"You only find out who is swimming naked when the tide goes out." Warren Buffet

"We've become a nation of con men, living by selling double-glazing to each other." Fred Dibnah

" You don't like your job, you don't strike. You go in every day and do it really half-assed. That's the American way. " Homer Simpson

Tony Soprano " Sil, break it down for 'em. What two business have traditionally been recession-proof since time immemorial? "
Silvio Dante " Certain aspects of show business and our thing. "

#9 RockyBalboa

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 10:39 PM

They were never "worth" 250k, impo off plan flats that were marketed at these prices at the peak will soon be changing hands for less than 100k


Ok...now I'm gonna have nightmares!!!!

#10 Ulidia

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 11:10 PM

I think it is however realistic to estimate that a flat bought for 250k in 2007 may be valued at around 150k by the lenders at the moment...a very depressing thought.



I'd agree with you regarding the likely fall in the assessed value vis-a-vis purchase price at peak. In fact, given the fall in house prices over the last 12 months, together with likely continued falls in house prices during 2009 and the particular sensitivity of lenders to new build apartments in today's environment, it could be worse than that upon completion.


Add to that the significantly higher deposits required for mortgages (especially BTL mortgages, which will be required by many of the James Clow purchasers) and its a daunting situation for all involved - contracted purchasers, employees of the developer and so on.


Genuinely hope it all works out but, IMO, I'd talk to the developer sooner rather than later.

#11 RockyBalboa

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 09:15 AM

Genuinely hope it all works out but, IMO, I'd talk to the developer sooner rather than later.
[/quote]

but what if their response is the same as their response to michaelmack: 'not our concern..if you don't complete we come after you'.. What is the way forward if you recieve an unconditional FO like that?

#12 michealmack

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 11:29 AM

Genuinely hope it all works out but, IMO, I'd talk to the developer sooner rather than later.


but what if their response is the same as their response to michaelmack: 'not our concern..if you don't complete we come after you'.. What is the way forward if you recieve an unconditional FO like that?

when ever you get back from london drop me a wee line and let me know when you wanna meet, do you know anymore jame clow victims the more the merrier

#13 Ulidia

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 04:59 PM

Genuinely hope it all works out but, IMO, I'd talk to the developer sooner rather than later.


but what if their response is the same as their response to michaelmack: 'not our concern..if you don't complete we come after you'.. What is the way forward if you recieve an unconditional FO like that?


Well, its somewhat unchartered territory, given that the 10% deposit itself was likely sufficient to secure a mortgage on new-build apartments until recent times. There's differing legal opinion as to the likely approach a court would take so, for all the theoretical scenarios discussed on this thread, its important that you get independent legal advice sooner rather than later.


Developers will be well aware that many buyers will have difficulty completing and I'm sure that they are taking appropriate advice to ensure that their own interests are protected. Whether the strategy is one of "I'll see you in court" or a more concessionary approach is, I imagine, dependent upon each developer and their own circumstances (and the stance adopted by their own bankers).


However, whilst I'm not a developer, I'd be pretty sure that a developer would look less favourably upon a buyer who buried their head in the sand until completion, rather that a buyer who gave reasonable notice of potential difficulties at the earliest possible opportunity.


Actions:

a ) take legal advice;

b ) subject to the legal advice, commence dialogue with the developer at the earliest possible opportunity.

Edited by Ulidia, 13 January 2009 - 05:00 PM.


#14 talksalot81

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 08:07 PM

Like I said elsewhere, the whole thing is a mess. I appreciate that it is unfortunate that you guys are the ones left with your hands up but it is indicative of the ridiculous system that was in operation - i.e. buyers on mass making legal agreements based on finances they just do not have. This should be the action of an idiot, not the norm!

You guys no doubt see this as a terrible thing for you but the fact that so many now occupy this untennable position means that it is bigger than you - there is the chance that you may well decimate local property development and bring about even more widespread job losses in the construction sector. If you cannot pay and the developer cannot take a 40+% hit then it is inevitable.

Overall I suspect that the massive scale of the problem means that the buyers will come out ok.

#15 michealmack

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 09:07 PM

Like I said elsewhere, the whole thing is a mess. I appreciate that it is unfortunate that you guys are the ones left with your hands up but it is indicative of the ridiculous system that was in operation - i.e. buyers on mass making legal agreements based on finances they just do not have. This should be the action of an idiot, not the norm!

You guys no doubt see this as a terrible thing for you but the fact that so many now occupy this untennable position means that it is bigger than you - there is the chance that you may well decimate local property development and bring about even more widespread job losses in the construction sector. If you cannot pay and the developer cannot take a 40+% hit then it is inevitable.

Overall I suspect that the massive scale of the problem means that the buyers will come out ok.

i reaaly hope you ae right as this is one of the biggest stresses i have ever had the thought of losing everything i have over putting a feckin deposit down is beyond me




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