[nix]

Has anyone looked into buying property in Ukraine?

a friend of mine went out there for business recently and came back with a brochure for this development:
http://www.hanrocdev...agle_Valley.pdf

It seems the developer started in Bulgaria and is now moving on to find a market with a better future

I am just starting to research the opportunity and wondered if anyone had any useful info

[Spongebob]

nix, on Mar 29 2007, 10:16 AM, said:

Has anyone looked into buying property in Ukraine?

I was in Prague last week and a property finder was talking about the Ukraine. He thinks that it may take off in a year or so. Right now it may be slightly difficult..

Watch this space me thinks..

[fws]

[The developer was at the Property Investor Show last week. I've reserved a studio and am due to go out on an inspection trip at the end of May (tied to school holidays). I was very impressed and what little due diligence I've been able to do has reinforced that. Ukraine is such a new market here that there's little information available. If anyone has any information, I'd be happy to be advised.

[fws]

I forgot to add that there was a delegation from the British press recently returned from the development and they are expecting publicity in the newspapers over the next few weeks. Before anyone shoots me down, I know this was paid for by the developer, but all new markets start somewhere.

Nix, I can't PM you, but if you want further info, try to PM me.

[TeddyBear]

I can't believe the pictures in that brochure, makes it look like the poshest bit of Canada!
Think about it, if this is such an exclusive money making development, why would they need your foreign money? The majority of the Ukraine is dirt poor but there's enough local rich people to control the developments that are going to make money.

[nix]

fws, on Mar 29 2007, 12:34 PM, said:

I forgot to add that there was a delegation from the British press recently returned from the development and they are expecting publicity in the newspapers over the next few weeks. Before anyone shoots me down, I know this was paid for by the developer, but all new markets start somewhere.

Nix, I can't PM you, but if you want further info, try to PM me.

FWS

I am not able to PM you either

the development was featured in one of the tabloids yesterday

are you buying direct from the developer?

My associate is planning to visit in the next month or so - perhaps we can compare notes after the visits

[nix]

TeddyBear, on Mar 29 2007, 02:23 PM, said:

I can't believe the pictures in that brochure, makes it look like the poshest bit of Canada!
Think about it, if this is such an exclusive money making development, why would they need your foreign money? The majority of the Ukraine is dirt poor but there's enough local rich people to control the developments that are going to make money.

Teddy

Your point doesnt really make any sense - why would the developer care whether the money is local or foreign?
You will notice that the developer has recently moved from developments in Bulgaria to Ukraine so probably has an established sales network in the UK already so it would be foolish not to utilise that - plus the whole world is now aware that there is growing demand for overseas property from UK/Irish investors so all foreign developers want to target this market

[soldintime]

Read this article from the BBC website. To me it looks like even ukraine is hitting bubble teritory. Real bargains in Europe are Germany & Switzerland.

http://news.bbc.co.u...ess/6228205.stm

[fws]

Yes, I agree. Due diligence on Kiev leads me to be very worried about that particular place. I wouldn't risk buying there. But I'm after income for this particular investment and that stacks up. I'm buying through Hanroc Developments but also met the developer who is a director of uaproperty. Ys, it would be interesting to compare notes after the visit.

[nix]

fws, on Mar 29 2007, 05:23 PM, said:

Yes, I agree. Due diligence on Kiev leads me to be very worried about that particular place. I wouldn't risk buying there. But I'm after income for this particular investment and that stacks up. I'm buying through Hanroc Developments but also met the developer who is a director of uaproperty. Ys, it would be interesting to compare notes after the visit.

It does seem that Kiev has got ahead of itself but that is no reason to discount the entire country - in fact the increased levels of wealth in Kiev should filter through to other areas of Ukraine and push prices up all over

Will let you know when either myself or my friend have been out to Ukraine

[fws]

Will let you know when either myself or my friend have been out to Ukraine
[/quote]

Well Nix as we appear to be the only 3 people in the UK interested in this area of the world, I look forward to hearing from you when you've been out there!

[dogbox]

Nix, good to see people exploring new territory.

For me personally I have come to the conclusion I like an English speaking substantial sales and rental infrastructure as doing business and particularly a quick unforseen exit (say if I died and Kids needed to liquidate) are so much easier.

I bought in Germany a while back and find it difficult as I constantly have pestered with German documents - everthing from snow clearance to charges for a water pipe on the land.

Do you have to file annual accounts in Ukraine? I find it difficult making sense of the Brit Tax system let alone foreign regimes (btw - I think Morocco will be relatively easy as there is a lite touch and many other Brits to share ideas / pool resources with).

I asked a Ukrainian client about Kiev 3 years ago and he said it had already gone up too much, in fact he said prices of posh areas were on a par with London. I suspect this wasnt accurate.

Another factor which stopped me buying in for example Estonia which on the face of it seemed very cheap was my awareness of property in Wales for the same price!! In other words cheap prices doesnt neceasarily mean they will go up.

Anyway, just my meandering thoughts.

Good luck

[fws]

If anyone is interested in this development, I'm travelling to Ukraine at the end of the month and will ask the developer any questions you wish. Articles so far have appeared in Mail on Sunday and Daily Express.

[dogbox]

fws, on May 1 2007, 12:54 PM, said:

If anyone is interested in this development, I'm travelling to Ukraine at the end of the month and will ask the developer any questions you wish. Articles so far have appeared in Mail on Sunday and Daily Express.

Im considering a reservation right now. The fee is non - refundable, gulp.

THE PROS:

Very cheap capital outlay now of £11000 on the studio
Balance of £20000 in 2 1/2 years, so lots of time to accumulate the balance.
Double the size of French studios Ive seen yet halve the money and right in amongst the slopes.

Emmerging market so potential large headroom growth.
The Russian and Polish markets are 2 that use Ukraine for skiing.
Long snow season. Reasonably high resort at 1600m with the development at 12oom

Getting in this early can mean you grab an asset in one of the best locations as opposed to a mature resort where the cheaper properties are usually not close to the action.
The developer has some track history in Bulgaria.

Rental yields expected to be 12% with hassle free onsite management / pool.
No cgt if property under 100 m2
The value in 2 1/2 years could be more than double (given Slovenian and Polish ski resort recent trends), yet only £11000 invested for that period so the return on capital assuming you flipped at completion is about x5.

THE CONS:

Its a punt for sure
Low standard of facilities such as medical and lifts (but should improve as money flows in)

Bloody cold in winter
Risky - I dont know this developer and its not easy to judge whether they are safe or not.
No doubt corruption is rife.

[The Soup Dragon]

I’ve only read pdf file that link at top of page provides, but thought I’d thrown in my observations. Observations that may well be easy to address!

1) With global warming you are taking an additional gamble by investing in ski resorts that are already dependent on short seasons. (This resort will no doubt have more similar hotels with time, so good low season rentals will no doubt be harder to get than literature implies. Though I do like the fact that views appear to be guaranteed.)
2) As others have said here and on other threads, prices might seem cheap to us, but are they? What do other established hotel units cost? Could you pick up units in another resort with more potential for capital growth? ( I could probably spend a little more and pick up a detached ski chalet in Serbia where the Winter Olympics were held 20 to 30 years ago. I know the country is less stable and the chalet would need work, but you get the idea – prices in this Ukraine development aren’t that much cheaper than some of the other resorts.)
3) Price of studio is approx. 990 Euros m2. So 32m2 studios start from under 32k Euros, not £32k.
4) 12% rentals was mentioned. Literature says tourism is increasing by 12% pa., but can’t say anything about rental returns being this level.
5) Resort is not 1200m in height and doubt peaks are 1600m. (Literature mentions nearby peak of Mount Trostyan being 1230m high.)
6) I’d also want to check out how much Polish people are using this market. They have their own ski resorts (I’m not saying they are as good.) If they do use this resort a lot will they continue to do so if property prices, and in turn rentals, rise significantly?