[dogbox]

As some of u know I recently bought in Berlin.
My next target is Morocco, here's why:

* No income Tax on the rent (double Taxation agreement applies so no UK Tax will apply) - note I am only looking at high quality property within a low rise, low density mega resort (classy though) with 3 18 hole golf courses, hospital, equestrian centre, polo pitch, water parks, gucci and other leading retailers on sight, 800 berth marina, and my property has a 60 year mooring berth (very rare) all fully managed including the rent side, forested green area, full security, restaurants, cinemas, Olympic pools, bowling alley, shopping centre - all very tastefuly done in Moroccon style by UK and Spanish builders - so renting will be easy).

*Capital Gains Taxed above £60k @ 20% in first 5 years. Between 5 - 10 years its 10%. After 10 years its 0.

*The King has announced 'plan Azur', which aims to have Morocco become a premier destination by 2010.

*Huge developments - Dubai style are underway backed by none other than Emaar Properties

*An 8km tunnel will link Gibralter to Tangiers by 2008

*The 'stars' are moving in. The Beckhams, Jude Law and Brad Pitt have recently bought - this is important, it sets the trends.

*An 'open skies' agreement has been signed and the Government guarantee world class airport upgrades by 2010.

*Ryan Air have announced flights to beginn by this summer

*White sand, huge beaches so much more attractive than the black sand Canary Islands and over 1 hour clser.

*'Exotic, yet close'

*Huge infrastructure improvements underway. The Americans are investing billions in new ports.

*Its just a hop from Spain BUT PRICES UP TO 10 X LOWER

*Im buying off - plan yet only part with 40%. The balance in 2009, yet I can sell on at any point. So my 40% leveredges me into 100% exposure to the market

Once the public begin holidaying here 'en mass' the stampede will begin. IT WILL HAPPEN, JUST LIKE MEXICO HAS (and Mexico is much farther away).

Spain is yesterdays news and Morocco is almost as close.

I think Im about to sign up for a villa - www.lejardindefleur.com (more MEW Im afraid). Within the most prestigious development - Saidia. £180k right on an 18 hole Golf course (3 to choose), marina and u get 60 year mooring rights for £10k!!!!!!!
Olympic pools, gated community, cinema, polo, equestrian centre, on the beach(6 km white sand), backed by snow capped mountains, forested area, plentiful water from mountains, on site Swiss rental company.
Villa has own pool. Fully serviced. Free membership to the club house. £180K!!!!! Totally safe gated development, all low rise, hospital on site.
Gucci and many others already purchased the shops surrounding the Marina - I wonder why?
The same at La Manga in Spain would be £1m +.

Rent for £4000 per week or more once site becomes well known. £60 per month maintenance charge includes pool maintenance and gardener. I think it will rent all year given the Golf and huge variety of quality facilities and year round climate. But even if it only rents for say 35 weeks and even if I only get say £1500 per week (which wont happen), the yield is still exceptionally high.

The bit I really like is only having to part with 40% for 3 years. Ok no yield on the 40% so I loose say £3600 pa interest, but I genuinely expect the value to more than double over 3 years. I look at property all over the world and have found nothing of this quality for the price this close to home. Places such as Bulgaria are way less important given the short season and lack of feel good sun factor.

Villas come fully furnished right down to tea spoons.

This post has been edited by dogbox: 10 April 2006 - 12:17 PM

[TheSunniTriangle]

What do you think of Egypt? any thoughts?

[dogbox]

TheSunniTriangle, on Apr 10 2006, 02:03 PM, said:

What do you think of Egypt? any thoughts?

Seems cheap, but what impresses me about Morocco is the combination of fantastic beaches, 3 hour flights and a Government heel bent on putting everything in place to ensure it becomes a world class tourism market, for example no income Tax on rents coupled with huge infrastructure investment to include a tunnel being built between Gibralter and Tangier.
Also many UK agents are selling the place which is a sure sign of market momentum.

To really make a decent investment I suggest the Mediterrania Saidia site. It offers total security and luxury, unlike the other smaller out on a limb sites. This will be crucial to rental markets. You can buy a marina berth for £10000 on a 60 year lease, I suspect the rental return on this alone will be significant.

Gucci, Armani and Budha Bars have all aquired commercial premisses on this site - that in itself will create hype and expectation. There are appartments from about £70000, these will become golddust within 5 years.

[delboypass]

always chasing the next big thing and everyone is always right...

Just like Dubai is findoing out....

[dogbox]

muttley, on Apr 11 2006, 12:36 AM, said:

Good luck mate.

I had the misfortune to visit Morocco in 1983.It was the worst place I have ever visited in my life.Tangiers is like some biblical hellhole.
Property may be cheap,but with good reason.The only person you will be selling to is someone more stupid than yourself.
Stick with Berlin.I can't believe you've bought everything there yet.

Bit bearish old boy.

You know Aman hotels (one of the worlds most prestigious) have one in Morocco and charge thousands per week. Similarly I am buying into a large secure exclusive Marina golf resort just a hop from Spain. As such I fully expect to make very substantial capital gain and have the option of letting for thousands per week.

I understand there is a lot of poverty in Morocco. I also understand people pay millions for appartments in New Delhi despite the poverty and that people invested in Ireland 10 years ago despite the war.
Things have a habit of changing.
Some seem to want investments that have a 'green light for go' attatched, but of course it doesnt work that way. The point is to get there before the crowd when the light is on amber. Its all about understanding the future vision just as those that bought into Dubai 10 years ago did - when everyone else 'waited for the green light by which time they were too late'.

Remember the name 'Meditarrnia Saidia'.

This post has been edited by dogbox: 11 April 2006 - 12:40 PM

[smilie]

Hi Dogbox

Suggest you read the latest Economist this week which has a very informative article on Morocco:

http://www.economist...tory_id=6772296

Sounds far too risky a place to me - too much depends on the attitude of an absolute monarch in a country with extreme poverty.

I think Bulgaria (where I have bought some holiday property) is a better and safer bet than Morocco (also a lot cheaper! - I bought for £60k a 2 bed apartment on a beach between 2 golf courses). I also think Germany is the place to go for pure investment which is what you have already done.

[dogbox]

smilie, on Apr 11 2006, 10:47 PM, said:

Hi Dogbox

Suggest you read the latest Economist this week which has a very informative article on Morocco:

http://www.economist...tory_id=6772296

Sounds far too risky a place to me - too much depends on the attitude of an absolute monarch in a country with extreme poverty.

I think Bulgaria (where I have bought some holiday property) is a better and safer bet than Morocco (also a lot cheaper! - I bought for £60k a 2 bed apartment on a beach between 2 golf courses). I also think Germany is the place to go for pure investment which is what you have already done.

People said Dubai was too risky for similar reasons. Those who got in early turned the real profits and this development is far classier and more attractive.

You need to understand the complex I am buying on is like almost nothing else in the world, what with 3 Golf courses, polo lawns, YEAR ROUND SUN (its 70 in Decemeber), 800 berth marina, vast landscaped grounds, leading designer shops around the marina, a glass lighthouse with 4 helipads and restaurants, 8 x 5 star and 2 x 7 star hotels, all no more than 3 stories high (except the lighthouse), a small athletics stadium, Golds gym, a 9km prominade, 17 floating beach clubs, 2 tropical parks, a small football stadium, 20 high class restaurants, butler serviced property, fully maintained, the best fittings and furnishings money can buy (all included in price), on site Swiss lettings company, benefit from worldwide marketing (the hotels will see to that), a white sand beach etc etc.

My villa is set into the golf course, on an island and will rent for c£4000 per week plus the marina birth will rent on its own as marina births in the Med are vastly under supplied.

No income Tax very low capital gains tax.

This is a world away from amateur Bulgaria which I explored in detail. I know people who cant let thier property in Bulgaria expecially in winter and they are frustrated at having to keep company accounts for any letting they do!

Morocco is just 8km from Gibralter and a tunnel will link the two by 2007.

The second largest Spannish developer (Fadessa) is managing the project, and the Moroccon King insists only only the highest quality building standards and fittings within this particular site.

This is the new Cote D' Azur. Ignore at your cost.

[smilie]

Hi Dogbox

I think you are being very optimistic that you will achieve £4000 a week in rent! I think you mean £400 a week, but even this could prove ambitious. How do you base this figure on?

I agree that Morocco is a year round destination - but you could argue that summer temperatures in July and August are too hot, especially to play golf in.

Morocco is a significantly poorer country than Bulgaria (GDP per capita is about $9000 for Bulgaria, but only $4300 in Morocco - thats poorer than Albania!). Bulgaria is yet to have proper budget airlines - but this is inevitable, and of course its guaranteed EU membership will make it a safer place to invest (with EU standard safeguards) and mean significant improvements to its infrastructure.

I see great growth potential in Bulgaria regarding golf. I am buying in an area where there are 3 professional golf courses being constructed, designed by Gary Player and Ian Woosnam - so hardly amatueur developments! All the courses are by the coast which has been largely unspolit by development and on stunning cliffs. Golf will also extend the season to 8 or 9 months. In the same way Bulgaria is seen as a budget destination for a beach holiday and now skiing - it could quickly become a cheap place to play golf by the coast on stunning courses.

I am not in it for rental anyway - more capital growth. Only time will tell.

With Morocco there are too many uncertainties because it is not democratic with a highly dubious legal system and poor human rights. There is also a security risk there as well. Also if the King wants to make it such a huge tourist destination, there is a risk that the wholeplace could become a building site with lots and lots of development. So the same problems that now face parts of Bulgaria regarding overdevelopment, difficulties for resale and poor rental will blight Morocco as well. Also, what happens if the next King changes his mind and decides he doesnt want any further development or doesnt like foreigners in his country? Even this King can change his mind - The economist article points to an education law which was passed but never implemented.

Anyway, just my thoughts....good luck!

[dogbox]

smilie, on Apr 12 2006, 11:56 AM, said:

Hi Dogbox

I think you are being very optimistic that you will achieve £4000 a week in rent! I think you mean £400 a week, but even this could prove ambitious. How do you base this figure on?

I agree that Morocco is a year round destination - but you could argue that summer temperatures in July and August are too hot, especially to play golf in.

Morocco is a significantly poorer country than Bulgaria (GDP per capita is about $9000 for Bulgaria, but only $4300 in Morocco - thats poorer than Albania!). Bulgaria is yet to have proper budget airlines - but this is inevitable, and of course its guaranteed EU membership will make it a safer place to invest (with EU standard safeguards) and mean significant improvements to its infrastructure.

I see great growth potential in Bulgaria regarding golf. I am buying in an area where there are 3 professional golf courses being constructed, designed by Gary Player and Ian Woosnam - so hardly amatueur developments! All the courses are by the coast which has been largely unspolit by development and on stunning cliffs. Golf will also extend the season to 8 or 9 months. In the same way Bulgaria is seen as a budget destination for a beach holiday and now skiing - it could quickly become a cheap place to play golf by the coast on stunning courses.

I am not in it for rental anyway - more capital growth. Only time will tell.

With Morocco there are too many uncertainties because it is not democratic with a highly dubious legal system and poor human rights. There is also a security risk there as well. Also if the King wants to make it such a huge tourist destination, there is a risk that the wholeplace could become a building site with lots and lots of development. So the same problems that now face parts of Bulgaria regarding overdevelopment, difficulties for resale and poor rental will blight Morocco as well. Also, what happens if the next King changes his mind and decides he doesnt want any further development or doesnt like foreigners in his country? Even this King can change his mind - The economist article points to an education law which was passed but never implemented.

Anyway, just my thoughts....good luck!

£4000, not £400. Ive seen villas (right on the fairways as mine is) for £27000 per week. Villas in South East Menorca (where I go often) are typically £1500 per week for a fairly basic villa not on Golf.
Im actually only assuming I will get £1000 per week to be on the safe side, but like you Im attracted more by capital growth. The scale and quality nof the developmet has to be seen to be beleived. As I say international designer brands have bought up shops in the Marina and include Armani, Gucci, Harrods, Boss and Budha Bars as well as Mango, Zara and Mari Eaux.

What will also draw in the money crowd is the 800 berth ultra modern marina, polo lawns and just the whole tone of the place. Some of the worlds most prestigious hotel chains have bought the low rise hotels being built upon the site.

The summer temperatures will not deter people as the immense grounds are completely wooded and covered with lakes, plus right on the coast with cooling summer breezes. Many resorts in the world have as hot climates. Snow capped mountains just behind offer year round water supply.

Two budget airlines, Ryan air and Easy jet are beginning flights (into Oujda) this summer. The 8km tunnel from Spain opens 2007. The Emaar group (behind Dubai) are investing £19.1 billion - think about that sum, these people dont invest such sums on a whim.

This particular development is self contained and no futher developmet is permitted within 20 miles each side.

This is to be a magnate for the rich and famous.

Good luck with Bulgaria, but it just didnt appeal to me as I think resale is difficult (many internet forums descibe difficulty reselling in Bulgaria). Your particular development sounds as though it should be ok given the Golf.

I really urge you to look at Morocco. The development is called Mediterranea Saidia. The villas are within this site and are called 'Le Jarin De Fleur'. There are also appartments.

It wont surprise me if the villas (£180k inc pool and a/c and fully fitten even down to TV and garen furniture with massive roof gardens) fetch £1m in 10 years time as supply is limited to just a few hundred on this huge site. Once the luxury yatchs start pulling in, the money arrives.

I am going in early so the prices reflect this.

Think Dubai without the chintz and tacky gold chandeliers. Think Cote D Azur but with a longer season and NO rough neighbourhoods.

[smilie]

Sounds too good to be true to me. I just don't buy it. I'm not saying that you shouldnt invest in Morocco and have a nice holiday home, but to expect the kind of returns you are stating is way over the top. It is all hype probably taken from the sales brochure for the development you are talking about.

You cannot compare what has happened in Dubai to what might happen in Morocco. Again look at the facts. The GDP per capita in the United Arab Emirates is $29,100 (about the same as Germany) ie about 7 times more wealthy than Morocco.

In the next 6 years, 12billion euros is to be invested into Bulgaria by the EU to improve infrastructure. Many other foreign companies are investing there too as well as the US which is investing because of military bases being planned in the country. There is far more Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) pouring into Bulgaria than Morocco. Although I could only find 2003 figures for this, Bulgaria was ranked 23rd in the world, with Morocco ranked at 32. In other words Bulgaria will become more wealthy far more quickly than Morocco.

You say it will be a magnet for the rich and famous. Yet you then say that Ryanair and Easyjet are going to fly there. This latter development is evidence that it will attract budget conscious travellers - the sort of people that will certainly not want to pay £4000 (or even £1000) per week to stay in your villa having paid for their £50 rtn flight with easyjet.

And yes, the resale market in Bulgaria is very underdeveloped. But it is no difference to Morocco - everyone is going to want off plan because there will be so many developments. So dont bank on making that £1m in 10 years just yet!

Have you actually visited Morocco? (I havent) There are deluxe golf developments springing up everywhere - Turkey, Cyprus, Bulgaria, Cape Verde, probably even Egypt I expect (which seems very similar to me to Morocco). So lots of supply....it will be interesting to see if any of these countries do actually make the grade and establish themselves properly in the golf market. But I think its fair enough to assume that professional golfers will always prefer the courses in Spain and Portugal, and these other destinations will always be second choice.

[mpd]

You are assuming first of all smilie that Bulgaria will get into the EU. That, as they say, is not all over until the rotund female sings...

Even assuming they do, Bulgaria's enrichment depends on how well they tackle the problem of organised crime and it's murky links with the political world. whether the money flowing into BG will be used to good effect, or whether it will be frittered away into various bank accounts in dodgy locations remains to be seen.

Very few Brits understand how the country works. There is no comparison with places such as Poland, Czech republic or the Baltic states. BG is controlled by the Communist old guard, who morphed themselves into 'businessmen' and whose influence pervades all aspects of society.It also has a burgeoning ultra right-wing faction who are basically thugs. As per our own BNP, but far more dangerous.

Very few Bulgarian people see any hope for self advancement other than leaving the country.

[smilie]

Hi mpd

Bulgaria's entry into the EU may be delayed by one year but thats it. It will definitely be joining.

And yes - organised crime is a huge problem in Bulgaria. Its the EU's main concern. WHich is why loads of emphasis is being placed on it to get things changed. I'm sure it will take many years to fix, but I think you have to get it into context. Corruption is rife in many countries. Just look at this world ranking of corruption by country:

http://www.worldaudi.../corruption.htm

Bulgaria is ranked 47th. Compare this to Italy at 32, and Czech Republic at 39. Poland is ranked at 59 and Morocco (for comparison) is 67th.

I never said you can compare Bulgaria to the likes of Czech Republic or the Baltic States. They are significantly more advanced.

And yes - lots of young Bulgarians want to leave (at least temporaily) to earn a decent living. The same can also be said with boat loads of Moroccans arriving in Spain trying to escape the extremes of poverty there.

At least Bulgaria is a newly established democracy (with teething problems I agree). This fares better for the future than an absolute monarch in Morocco.

[San Fermin]

Dogbox, I can't take you seriously any more. There is not going to be a tunnel between Gibraltar and Morocco in 2007. You are dreaming. There have been nothing more than talks and there is no funding. And where did you get this idea about Ryanair flying to Morocco? I can't find it on their website.