[kman]

I've heard that property prices have hardly gone up in Germany in years due to high unemployemnet, slugggish economy and a culture of renting? But could be due fro an upturn soon. Anybody invested there? which are the cities to target?

[dogbox]

kman, on Jan 15 2006, 10:20 AM, said:

I've heard that property prices have hardly gone up in Germany in years due to high unemployemnet, slugggish economy and a culture of renting? But could be due fro an upturn soon. Anybody invested there? which are the cities to target?

Ive just bought in E Berlin. Land 1000m2 for 92000 euros.

I targeted land that could be developed for both resi and or commercial property in order to expose myself 2 both markets. As they climb out of recession, the demand from business for prime space will be huge.

Germany is the worlds no1 exporter, but sentiment has kept prices very low. Thats all changing. Money is flowing into both property and German equities.

I sold my UK B2Ls in order to work my money harder, and this investment is part of that stratergy.

WHY BERLIN?

Its redesignated the capital. Think about that. Most western cities (let alone capitals) have experienced a boom. Berlin stands out like an investment beacon. Its strategically placed for E Europe and was prior to communism a magnet for economic activity. Huge development has been underway for some time, but there is still a lot to do, to shrug - off the communist / grey feel, buts thats just a matter of time.

Exciting indicators of change are the fact that this year for the first time office space demand had surged (36% up). The world first multi - owned nightclub has just opened - where thousands of people stumped - up small amounts to finance it. EXPERTS and economists often miss these small details, but it is these very details that bring about the change in sentiment on the ground.

Money flows to undervalued assets. The new conservative Govt have signalled thier plans to bring about changes that will have a positive impact on real estate.

The World Cup will be a useful trigger. The commonwealth games did a lot for Manchester, yet these are of minor significance compared to the world cup.

WATHOUT - the pessimists will scare u with tales of doom and gloom, but then these same people would never have invested in dirty Northern UK towns, Ireland or America. Imagine thier response if just after 9/11 you had asked them whether New York was a good play?


The time to buy is when there is blood on the streets. Berlins blood spills following years of communist decline and the pain of re - unification is well and trully being mopped - up, so dont hang about.

I bought land from the Berlin Govt local municipality and used a Lwyer with a London branch.

What about renting - out? Its true tenants have more rights, but if you know what you are doing you can reduce your downside. Some LLs rent via corporate short - term agancies for example. In any event as the German sentiment improves rent yields and the desire to buy will follow suit. You might even want to buy commercial property. Ive seen old supermarkets for sale, car - parks, warehouses - the opportunities are endless.

ONE MORE THING, BMW have just opened thier biggest outlet, its in Berlin. Aks yourself what this means. I think it means invest now.

[abroad]

Property market was flat to negative in most of Germany for the 2000-2005 timeframe. There are some signs of recovery and if i were choosing I'd choose Berlin. Local government is aggressively targeting business investment and so looking to use this to upgrade the city. Munich has been most consistant positive market in that time.
I was in Rhein-main area for 5 years and rented for the same price for the whole time. When we moved the l/lord split the place into 2 flats and was advertising both for €350 less than our collective rent. I believe a lot of this was due to huge reduction in expat community. I know of only 1 guy from all my friends who still gets an international package. The rest took local deals or went back to home country.
It will still take a lot of work to get the economy back where it was and the US export market is a major factor in the economy. So there is some risk there but significantly less risk in Germany than UK for housing land.

This post has been edited by abroad: 16 January 2006 - 02:30 PM

[kman]

abroad, on Jan 16 2006, 02:29 PM, said:

Property market was flat to negative in most of Germany for the 2000-2005 timeframe. There are some signs of recovery and if i were choosing I'd choose Berlin. Local government is aggressively targeting business investment and so looking to use this to upgrade the city. Munich has been most consistant positive market in that time.
I was in Rhein-main area for 5 years and rented for the same price for the whole time. When we moved the l/lord split the place into 2 flats and was advertising both for €350 less than our collective rent. I believe a lot of this was due to huge reduction in expat community. I know of only 1 guy from all my friends who still gets an international package. The rest took local deals or went back to home country.
It will still take a lot of work to get the economy back where it was and the US export market is a major factor in the economy. So there is some risk there but significantly less risk in Germany than UK for housing land.

How do you go about finding deals? best to take a trip out there? I couldn't really find any websites, can you guys give me any links?

[dogbox]

kman, on Jan 16 2006, 06:17 PM, said:

How do you go about finding deals? best to take a trip out there? I couldn't really find any websites, can you guys give me any links?

2 people Ive used (both E/As - but unlike UK E/As, the service is far more professional and all encompassing).

Say Richard gave you thier details.

www.jop-immobilien.de (ask for Mr Pfitzner)

www.karras-immobilien.de (Ask for Barbarra, her English not so good, but her son Thomas is usually on hand to translate).

Please treat them with respect, and do not be a 'time vampire'. Try and narrow down what it is you want. I prefer land that has commercial or resi use.
If u want small appartments, Barbarra has new ones in a funky Camden type area (Freiderikshaine) for around 85000 euros right in the busy bar streets.

You can pay as little as 30000 euros further out.

My land is in Kaulsdorf in the old Eastern side. Anywhere near Kopenick seems a good bet as its a busy shopping area with good links not too far out and has lots of parks and lakes etc. Mr Pfitzner had some stuff here.

Bare in ind the legal process is quite legnthy and you will have to consider things such as whether land is contaminated with asbestos buildings etc.

Good luck - its the best investment you will ever make Im sure.

This post has been edited by dogbox: 18 January 2006 - 01:44 PM

[abroad]

kman, on Jan 16 2006, 07:17 PM, said:

How do you go about finding deals? best to take a trip out there? I couldn't really find any websites, can you guys give me any links?

Wohnung is flat, Miete is rent , Kauf(en) is to buy. Haus is...well you get the idea. I also think when buying that the purchaser pays the Estate agent.......


http://www.immobilie...p?ftc=2011BUTde

This post has been edited by abroad: 18 January 2006 - 01:45 PM

[Stephen]

I have been living in Germany since beginning 1998. So thought I would add my 10 cents for what it is worth.

Germany is a "renters" market. Under 40% of Germans have property, and in most large cities prefer to rent. Berlin, Munich, Hamburg, and Frankfurt are the key towns.

From 1998-2000 the housing market was strong, and virtually impossible to find rented property in the large towns. There was a large expat community, especially in banking in Frankfurt and technology in Munich etc that pushed rents up a lot. Then the economy dropped like a stone, expat deals for employees became less, and most foreigners have been heading home from 2000-2005.

Berlin has been a special case. The German goverment has invested billions on housing and infrastructure through the 1990's. Office and house blocks were popping up everywhere in Berlin and the Government looked for foreign investment which did not happen. So the market in Berlin dropped big time, whilst Frankfurt and Hamburg stayed flat and Munich was flat to up.

However thing's are changing. Merkel (the PM) is trying to libralise the banking segment to make it easier to buy property, she has set plans and has already undertaken the sale of large government land and property assets to domestic and foreign investment and thing's are improving. The rent market is getting tough and with low interest rates (under ~4% for a 10 to 15 yr fixed mortgage) the buy has started slowly. I would summmaries as the UK market in 1970's before Margaret Thather turned UK into a home owning society.

The changes are affoot and it may be slower than we would all wish but I am sure Germany will be the best performing and safest property investment in Western Europe over the next 10yrs.

If you guy's need some advice let me know as I have experince of buying and selling in Germany. Cost of buying is 5-10% of purchase price due to fees and taxes. Buyer pays! , not like UK where Seller pays .

I will be moving back to UK in March '06 so if anyone is interested I have some properties for sale in Munich.

[Stephen]

Look at this market analysis of the German property market from Deutsche Bank.
http://www.dbresearc...00000188134.pdf

The UK sits uncomfortably at the top of the highest increase in property prices of Europe since 1990, followed by Holland and Spain.

If you want to look at historical UK house prices look at the Nationwide:
http://www.nationwid...r_inflation.xls

To me it is only a matter of time before a major correction in house pricing takes place in the UK, and the smart money is moving abroad. As the cost of borrowing rises in the UK with higher interest rates housing needs to be more affordable. Historically mortgage payments in the UK have stayed at approx 30% of income, and 3x annual salary.

For me Germany looks like a good long-term and safe bet.

[jeremy fisher]

A good analysis of the German market can be found at the following link:

Germany Property analysis

[Big_Head]

Does anybody know of UK company that would sell my German property to investors.

I lived and worked in NE Germany (2hrs North of Berlin). It was a building with two long term tenants in the middle floor. I did the bottom floor up and it is rented to a business and I converted the top floor to a penthouse for me to live in. Now I have moved out the 'penthouse' is also rented.

I have been toying with the idea to sell to release capital but do not want to put up a 'For sale' sign, in case I spook the solid tenants that I have. Ideally I'd like to sell it, change hands seamlesly without tenants being really aware - my guess an ideal opportunity for an investor.

Anyone know of any such a service?

[jeremy fisher]

I've done another analysis of my own which you can find attached. This was based on buying a block of flats to gain from rental yield over the long term.

Any comments would be welcome. Also if you know the answers to my questions I'd be very grateful if you could let me have them.

Attached File(s)

•  Berlin_invest.pdf (40.3K)
  Number of downloads: 337

[brother from another mother]

Hi all,

Im new to this forum

I'm looking to invest in Germany as well, in Berlin and I was wondering what you guys thought in terms of which area in Berlin would be good. I was thinking about Kreuzberg, Friedrichshain and parts of Tiergarten.

This is because of the following statement, which may or may not be true, which is all I have to go with for now:

The general rule is: the higher the capital aprreciation potiential the lower the yield. Some may argue that Kreuzberg and Friedrichshain and parts of Tiergarten hold true for both, though.

Any thoughts?

BFAM

[soldintime]

brother from another mother, on Feb 20 2006, 04:56 PM, said:

Hi all,

Im new to this forum

I'm looking to invest in Germany as well, in Berlin and I was wondering what you guys thought in terms of which area in Berlin would be good. I was thinking about Kreuzberg, Friedrichshain and parts of Tiergarten.

This is because of the following statement, which may or may not be true, which is all I have to go with for now:

The general rule is: the higher the capital aprreciation potiential the lower the yield. Some may argue that Kreuzberg and Friedrichshain and parts of Tiergarten hold true for both, though.

Any thoughts?

BFAM

Yes i would say for Kreuzberg and Friedrichshain. I did not like tiergarten at all, lots of businesses around but not many funky areas.

[face_like_bambi]

Hiya,

For what it's worth, I bought a flat in the Kreuzberg area just before Christmas - my first little foray into foreign property. Some observations:

- As mentioned several times above, buyer nearly always pays the estate agent's fee and expect it to come in at 6-7% of the property value. Though rare, it is possible to strike a deal with the seller to go 50/50 on the fee if he's desperate enough to sell.

- I found a great Berlin-based solicitor (Notar), but expect to make all the payments to the owner, banks, land registry (Grundbuch), taxes, etc. yourself. The solicitor will just tell you how much and when to pay it.

- When you go to the solicitor's office to sign the contract, it has to be read aloud by the Notar in German and you have to prove that your German is good enough to understand or bring along a translator. Some offices will charge extra to translate it to English for you.

- Notar's fees are regulated and calculated based on property value - they are much cheaper than UK solicitors... no suprise there

- I'd agree that Kreuzberg is a great area to invest, especially near the popular Bergmanstrasse area. There are lots of developer deals around there at the moment. Friedrichshain is generally a bit more edgy and funky... like Prenzlauer Berg area 12 years ago. If Fhain goes all gentrified and posh like PB did (as some predict), property prices will soar. It has a long way to go though...

- Property auctions are interesting, but highly complicated and protracted. Franell Consulting run one-off seminars which cost 40 euros to attend and are full of relevant info - http://www.zv-information.de. It's a genuine seminar as opposed to UK-stylee 'investment seminar' rip-off operations. You will need good German to follow it though. The gist with auctions is - there are savings to be made, but you will invest serious time and stress in the project.

Jason

This post has been edited by face_like_bambi: 02 March 2006 - 02:06 PM

[christopherm]

kman, on Jan 15 2006, 11:20 AM, said:

I've heard that property prices have hardly gone up in Germany in years due to high unemployemnet, slugggish economy and a culture of renting? But could be due fro an upturn soon. Anybody invested there? which are the cities to target?

My two cents as a German citizen:

As long as unemployment will rise, no chance for rising property prices over here.

Without a "German Thatcher" no chance for lower unemployment...