Internet Sales Tax Bill Gains Ground In Senate

[durhamborn]

Do you know who is pushing this the hardest? Amazon.

Why? Because it will destroy the thousands of small internet sellers and those who use Ebay.

Amazon is building vast warehouses in run down states and in return is getting deal that exempt it from certain tax.

This isnt about protecting the shops.Its about Amazon killing off the one thing that can be more competitive than them and long term destroy their business.Small internet retailers with websites and on Ebay.

[geezer466]

Do you know who is pushing this the hardest? Amazon.

Why? Because it will destroy the thousands of small internet sellers and those who use Ebay.

Amazon is building vast warehouses in run down states and in return is getting deal that exempt it from certain tax.

This isnt about protecting the shops.Its about Amazon killing off the one thing that can be more competitive than them and long term destroy their business.Small internet retailers with websites and on Ebay.

You have knocked the nail on the head Durham.

Many small retailers were lured in by Amazon and listed their products only to become dismayed at the amount of commission they were charging.

Subsequently they lost faith and bailed out of Amazon only to find Amazon never ever deleted their product listings. So searches for their products Amazon now outrank them in google even though they mark the product out of stock and with no resupply date.

The march of the globalists and their moves to eradicate the small people gathers pace.

Google search results in the last year or so are now freezing out the smaller operators in favour of the bigger brands.

Some schools of thought take the view this is what panda and penguin updates was about.

An example, if I want a small cosy hotel close to Lake Windermere I want a list of independent hotels which I can compare. I don't want booking.com at the top of the list and other operators like tripadvisor and laterooms trying to get me to buy what they consider I want based on the amount of commission they can screw from the hotel. Half the time these places won't even return results in the area I want.

[Guest_GradualCringe_*]

Do you know who is pushing this the hardest? Amazon.

Why? Because it will destroy the thousands of small internet sellers and those who use Ebay.

Amazon is building vast warehouses in run down states and in return is getting deal that exempt it from certain tax.

This isnt about protecting the shops.Its about Amazon killing off the one thing that can be more competitive than them and long term destroy their business.Small internet retailers with websites and on Ebay.

It's "Baptists and Bootleggers" legislation i.e. ostensibly to make sure everyone "pays their fair share" (Baptist side of the argument), however, sponsored and lobbied for by a huge corporate to create a legal monopoly.

[Executive Sadman]

Yep. What ive heard is the big boys will easily cope with this, processing the tax code for 50+ states. If your'e a small supplier, it will be near impossible, and hugely expensive.

Its just using govt to create another barrier to entry and thwart any semblance of a free market and consumer choice. Hence why majorities of both parties are on board.

[Red-Cardinal]

Am not sure what is going on here?

Is the tax due? Or is the bill coming in to force tax to be charged in the buyer's state? If it is needed, then how can the likes of Amazon etc already be collecting these sales taxes?

And isn't this just the same as the VAT scene in the EU? If you are selling your goods in another EU country then, subject to a smallish threshold (and much less that $1m) you need to start charging local rates of VAT to your consumers?

And finally if the threshold is $1m, then doesn't this protect the smaller businesses that some of the earlier posts portray as the victims here? And more, protect those local small businesses in the states where sales tax is levied already?

[happy_renting]

Am not sure what is going on here?

Is the tax due? Or is the bill coming in to force tax to be charged in the buyer's state? If it is needed, then how can the likes of Amazon etc already be collecting these sales taxes?

And isn't this just the same as the VAT scene in the EU? If you are selling your goods in another EU country then, subject to a smallish threshold (and much less that $1m) you need to start charging local rates of VAT to your consumers?

And finally if the threshold is $1m, then doesn't this protect the smaller businesses that some of the earlier posts portray as the victims here? And more, protect those local small businesses in the states where sales tax is levied already?

"Online retailers with out-of-state sales of less than $1 million a year would be exempt."

A little confusing here - does that mean $1m of on-line sales, or $1m of sales in total? Some retailers will sell on-line, over the phone, and also from a shop.

Does the sales tax apply depending on the state the seller is in, or the buyer is in? It would seem the latter. So what happens if you buy from a bricks-and-mortar shop? Do they check to see what state you live in? I doubt it. Are there customs at state boundaries? Nope.

It does seem unfair that shop sellers have to charge tax, but online sellers don't. But it may be unfair because sales are taxed, period.

So this legislation means that if you go into an Oregon shop, you will be able to buy tax-free, and take it home to, say, NY. But if you buy online from an Oregon shop, you will have to pay NY sales tax when it is delivered to you. In other words, it's still going to be a mess.

I thought European VAT rule inconsistencies were bad enough.

[gadget]

. If your'e a small supplier, it will be near impossible, and hugely expensive.

What ARE you talking about?

It's basic functionlaity already built into any accounting package or online selling software they're already using.

And even if not it'll take about an hour in Excel to work out.

It's not even a increase in taxes: the taxes are already due it's just with the sellers not charging it the buyer is meant to go down his local tax office and settle up.

[durhamborn]

"Online retailers with out-of-state sales of less than $1 million a year would be exempt."

A little confusing here - does that mean $1m of on-line sales, or $1m of sales in total? Some retailers will sell on-line, over the phone, and also from a shop.

Does the sales tax apply depending on the state the seller is in, or the buyer is in? It would seem the latter. So what happens if you buy from a bricks-and-mortar shop? Do they check to see what state you live in? I doubt it. Are there customs at state boundaries? Nope.

It does seem unfair that shop sellers have to charge tax, but online sellers don't. But it may be unfair because sales are taxed, period.

So this legislation means that if you go into an Oregon shop, you will be able to buy tax-free, and take it home to, say, NY. But if you buy online from an Oregon shop, you will have to pay NY sales tax when it is delivered to you. In other words, it's still going to be a mess.

I thought European VAT rule inconsistencies were bad enough.

First once in whos to say this wont be reduced.Also this puts a massive ceiling on online sales and a business growing.This is simply Amazon mainly trying to kill small business.Ebay is fighting hard to stop it because it will hit hard a lot of their small business sellers.

Amazon are losing the battle against smaller sellers.Many warehouses now offer very similar systems to Amazon for small sellers.I use one.Amazon cant compete and they want to kill these small companies.

The internet is the one place a small person can take on the big companies.Amazon want to kill that.

[easy2012]

What ARE you talking about?

It's basic functionlaity already built into any accounting package or online selling software they're already using.

And even if not it'll take about an hour in Excel to work out.

Really? Do you mind showing me some links to these accounting packages ?

You tend to be able to create those codes - but that is a hugely laborious process for a small business (and nothing for AMZN of course).

An example here: http://crmconsultancy.wordpress.com/tailoring-the-product-selection-for-opportunities-and-quotes-in-dynamics-crm/7-managing-tax-codes-in-crm/customising-mscrm-to-include-tax-codes/

Also these rates changes from time to time (even UK VAT went from 15% to 17.5% then back to 17.5% and then 20%). The sales tax exemption list also changes from time to time.

Now, the online shopping carts also need to take into account of these rates.

It's not even a increase in taxes: the taxes are already due it's just with the sellers not charging it the buyer is meant to go down his local tax office and settle up.

Then clearly we should just do nothing ( why waste congress time) and just let the buyer do what they meant to do then..

Edited April 28, 2013 by easy2012

[easy2012]

First once in whos to say this wont be reduced.Also this puts a massive ceiling on online sales and a business growing.This is simply Amazon mainly trying to kill small business.Ebay is fighting hard to stop it because it will hit hard a lot of their small business sellers.

Amazon are losing the battle against smaller sellers.Many warehouses now offer very similar systems to Amazon for small sellers.I use one.Amazon cant compete and they want to kill these small companies.

The internet is the one place a small person can take on the big companies.Amazon want to kill that.

Durhamborn - do you mean the fullfillment service ?

[@contradevian]

Do you know who is pushing this the hardest? Amazon.

Why? Because it will destroy the thousands of small internet sellers and those who use Ebay.

Amazon is building vast warehouses in run down states and in return is getting deal that exempt it from certain tax.

This isnt about protecting the shops.Its about Amazon killing off the one thing that can be more competitive than them and long term destroy their business.Small internet retailers with websites and on Ebay.

Don't a lot of small businesses selling on Ebay also sell on Amazon and other sites?

Was recently playing around with software called Linn Works, which is stock inventory and shipping inventory software for online traders and it integrates with Ebay, Amazon as well as Magento and other e-commerce sites.

Linn Systems also produce software called "Mean Pricer" or something which allows to monitor and undercut competitors on Amazon. Your own race to the bottom, if the comp also has the same software!

The other thing that the traditional items such as s/h CD's and DVD's now seem almost unsellable unless you let them go often less than they cost to post and pack.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Secure Tenant

[LJAR]

It's not even a increase in taxes: the taxes are already due it's just with the sellers not charging it the buyer is meant to go down his local tax office and settle up.

Nope - there is case law in the US stating that sales tax is not due on items sold over the internet in different states. if you sell over the internet in the same state, then tax is due. Otherwise, no.

@ durhamborn - spot on.

[durhamborn]

Durhamborn - do you mean the fullfillment service ?

Yes,iv now got all my stock in a shared warehouse where we all book in from home and its then sent out from the warehouse.The couriers are based in the same warehouse as well.It undercuts Amazons operation.I also get the containers into there so its a one stop option.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2013/apr/22/ebay-internet-sales-tax-bill-amazon

Ebay lobby against it for the very reasons said on here.

[durhamborn]

Don't a lot of small businesses selling on Ebay also sell on Amazon and other sites?

Was recently playing around with software called Linn Works, which is stock inventory and shipping inventory software for online traders and it integrates with Ebay, Amazon as well as Magento and other e-commerce sites.

Linn Systems also produce software called "Mean Pricer" or something which allows to monitor and undercut competitors on Amazon. Your own race to the bottom, if the comp also has the same software!

The other thing that the traditional items such as s/h CD's and DVD's now seem almost unsellable unless you let them go often less than they cost to post and pack.

Yes they do ,and so do i.

However i never stock anything thats a common item as like you say on Amazon everyone cuts and cuts to be cheapest and there is no margin.

Ebay is a far better platform for small companies IMO.Google drives a lot of sales.

Postage is a massive problem now for online sellers and iv moved to higher value items that can carry postage easier.Mid range items are getting almost priced out now due to postage,and most of thats down to fuel costs.

[gadget]

Really? Do you mind showing me some links to these accounting packages ?

You tend to be able to create those codes - but that is a hugely laborious process for a small business (and nothing for AMZN of course).

An example here: http://crmconsultancy.wordpress.com/tailoring-the-product-selection-for-opportunities-and-quotes-in-dynamics-crm/7-managing-tax-codes-in-crm/customising-mscrm-to-include-tax-codes/

Also these rates changes from time to time (even UK VAT went from 15% to 17.5% then back to 17.5% and then 20%). The sales tax exemption list also changes from time to time.

Now, the online shopping carts also need to take into account of these rates.

Well here's a wordpress plugin that'll do it for $50

https://shopplugin.net/blog/us-sales-tax-service-with-the-taxcloud-plugin-for-shopp/

Using TaxCloud’s service, merchants can calculate sales tax for around 13,000 tax jurisdictions. They continuously monitor changes to state and local tax codes and rates, automatically updating their service to charge the correct tax every time, no extra effort on your part.

Then clearly we should just do nothing ( why waste congress time) and just let the buyer do what they meant to do then..

Because nobody does.

Nope - there is case law in the US stating that sales tax is not due on items sold over the internet in different states. if you sell over the internet in the same state, then tax is due. Otherwise, no.

@ durhamborn - spot on.

You're confusing the issue of whether a seller can be forced to charge the sales tax with whether it's due on the transaction.

http://smallbusiness.findlaw.com/business-taxes/do-you-have-to-pay-sales-tax-on-internet-purchases.html

For consumers that order tax-free items online, but live in states that charge a sales tax, they are technically required to report that purchase to their state tax agency and pay the sales tax directly to the agency.

[alexw]

"Online retailers with out-of-state sales of less than $1 million a year would be exempt."

A little confusing here - does that mean $1m of on-line sales, or $1m of sales in total? Some retailers will sell on-line, over the phone, and also from a shop.

Does the sales tax apply depending on the state the seller is in, or the buyer is in? It would seem the latter. So what happens if you buy from a bricks-and-mortar shop? Do they check to see what state you live in? I doubt it. Are there customs at state boundaries? Nope.

It does seem unfair that shop sellers have to charge tax, but online sellers don't. But it may be unfair because sales are taxed, period.

So this legislation means that if you go into an Oregon shop, you will be able to buy tax-free, and take it home to, say, NY. But if you buy online from an Oregon shop, you will have to pay NY sales tax when it is delivered to you. In other words, it's still going to be a mess.

I thought European VAT rule inconsistencies were bad enough.

The issue is/was that certain states dont have sales taxes while others do. It meant companies could locate in no sales tax states and sell into those that do and undercut all their competitors.

Amazon was very big at doing this and was very anti- internet sales tax. But as they grew it made things harder and harder for them as they would be located far away from many big markets and people dont like having long delivery wait times. So Amazon have started basing their warehouses in all states and so have changed their tune and very pro internet sales tax.

It did also get a number of exemptions to collecting sales taxes in states. But those exemptions pretty much all expire in 2014 anyway. Which is another big reason Amazon has changed its tune. If the tax isn't imposed then it would be paying the tax when many of it's competitors would not.

A very very cynical ploy by amazon.

However the sales tax is also an issue of fairness. The tax should be collected. Internet stores should not get a large competitive advantage over storefront retailers simply due to tax avoidance reasons. Its really no different than the crap amazon pulls in the UK with its corporation tax ploys.

As for small U.S. businesses how many have turn over of over 1 million in out of state sales? Exceedingly few I doubt.

[pepactonius]

Nope - there is case law in the US stating that sales tax is not due on items sold over the internet in different states. if you sell over the internet in the same state, then tax is due. Otherwise, no.

@ durhamborn - spot on.

It depends on the state. In NY State, on the income tax form, there's a line for an uncollected sales tax "allowance". They assume you spend a certain percentage of your total income at out-of-state online stores, and collect the tax on that (unless you can somehow prove that you spent less). If this bill goes through, I wonder if they'll reduce this percentage?

[winkie]

Anyone find things via amazon then go directly to the sellers website to purchase directly?

[geezer466]

Anyone find things via amazon then go directly to the sellers website to purchase directly?

I have in the past. I always find the reviews on Amazon a worthwhile read but being internet savvy I tend to look for the sellers own site first by searching by exact model name/number for the item because without the Amazon commission it is often cheaper.

[gadget]

Linn Systems also produce software called "Mean Pricer" or something which allows to monitor and undercut competitors on Amazon. Your own race to the bottom, if the comp also has the same software!

Automatic pricing software can be quite dangerous when the bots fight each other:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2384102,00.asp

If your eyes aren't open yet, how about this: $1.7 to $2.1 million for a book—a perfectly average, out of print but not quite rare title that's considered a fundamental work of development biology? Or how about… $23.6 million?

That's the result of a recent bidding war between two third-party Amazon merchants, each attempting to use algorithms to sell an out-of-print version of Peter A. Lawrence's, "The Making of a Fly: The Genetics of Animal Design."

[@contradevian]

Anyone find things via amazon then go directly to the sellers website to purchase directly?

Yes this is quite common and Ebay sellers to some use Ebay to leverage sales directly to their website, or for example offering cash on delivery. I know one Ebay reseller who had Paypal retain £60k as they had "grown too fast" and started offering COD on home furnishings as alternative payment.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Secure Tenant

[easy2012]

Well here's a wordpress plugin that'll do it for $50

https://shopplugin.net/blog/us-sales-tax-service-with-the-taxcloud-plugin-for-shopp/

Interesting and thank you.

[JOliver]

First once in whos to say this wont be reduced.Also this puts a massive ceiling on online sales and a business growing.This is simply Amazon mainly trying to kill small business.Ebay is fighting hard to stop it because it will hit hard a lot of their small business sellers.

Amazon are losing the battle against smaller sellers.Many warehouses now offer very similar systems to Amazon for small sellers.I use one.Amazon cant compete and they want to kill these small companies.

The internet is the one place a small person can take on the big companies.Amazon want to kill that.

I was looking to use "fulfilled by Amazon" as postal rates are crazy for packets. Amazon charges 10p/100g - are there really many warehouses that can match, if not beat, this price?

Genuine question from SME trader.

Thank you.

[gadget]

l

Interesting and thank you.

No problem. Just found it from a quick google.