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European Splintering Escalates: Dutch Government Falls; Slovakia Government Collapsed In March; Czech Government Collapse Coming Right Up


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#1 MrPin

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:41 AM

The Third Reich lasted only twelve years! :blink: :huh:
Ignorance can be cured! Stupidity cannot!

#2 RichM

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:53 AM

Yeah, but what's the bad news?
Proverbs 19:14 - Houses and wealth are inherited from parents, but a prudent wife is from the LORD.

#3 RufflesTheGuineaPig

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 01:20 AM

In the future, the near future, people will look back at the EU and the European governments and ask... "was everybody high all the time?"
It's time to pay the piper. There is no magician who will magic away the debt. Someone is going to have to pay it. Bend over and prepare to make payment.

In this glorious nation of ours, if you work hard and keep your head down for 25 years then you too can aspire to own one-eighth of a one bedroom flat in Manchester.


My mum and day always tell me how important it is to save to buy a house. They should know, it took them nearly 6 months to save for theirs. As teenagers, they bought a 3 bed semi.

#4 Snugglybear

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 04:01 AM

But what happens if austerity is inevitable (as many on here say) and nation state and regional governments have to impose it? Who are they going to blame if there's no EU to finger?

#5 Sir Harold m

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 05:22 AM

But what happens if austerity is inevitable (as many on here say) and nation state and regional governments have to impose it? Who are they going to blame if there's no EU to finger?

They can blame their own governments, get rid of them and then elect another who may or may not succeed. This may result in cyclical blame etc but eventually the natural mechanics of their economy will rebalance, recession, soft default, inflation, depression, recovery.

What they will avoid is the imposition from abroad of a hand picked unelected leader who will ensure the sub prime lenders who lent the money to their predecessors get their return at all costs.

Sovereign lending is ok but lenders must realise the risks involved. There is no such thing as moral hazard in sovereign lending. You simply can not expect unborn to be morally culpable for grandads debts .

When people get this they will stop bleating about morality of defaults , inflation etc etc . Lenders (ie holders of paper) are subject to risk just as much as borrowers, if they don't like it buy assets instead !

Personally, I think people running countries should balance inflation with credibility rather than putting all eggs in one basket either through total default or massive austerity.

You gave to be out of the euro straitjacket to balance this act

#6 Mr. Miyagi

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 06:15 AM

Farage did say that the collapse of the EZ could come from an unexpected source, perhaps the Dutch will be the catalyst.

#7 stormymonday_2011

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 06:19 AM

But what happens if austerity is inevitable (as many on here say) and nation state and regional governments have to impose it? Who are they going to blame if there's no EU to finger?


Foreigners, Jewish financiers, global capitalists, immigrants, neighbouring countries etc.

You know the script.

How far it will go and how extreme it will get.is anyones guess.

What is unusual is that the current hatred of pan European institutions is almost a mirror image of some of the things seen prior to the fall of the Soviet Union (ie Euro puppet regimes such as in Greece facing crowds on the streets, sullen populaces etc). However, I don't agree with those who think this is just a crisis of European 'socialism'. It is centre right governments that practise both social and economic liberalism that are feeling the heat.

The irony is that what is likely to kill the EU is the Euro, the very thing that was supposed to have guaranteed the future of the European super state. Plus. of course, eye watering levels of corruption but then the UK is well down that road too.

Edited by stormymonday_2011, 23 April 2012 - 06:33 AM.

The certainty of misery is preferable to the the misery of uncertainty

#8 Guest_Control_*

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 06:54 AM

There is no such thing as moral hazard in sovereign lending. You simply can not expect unborn to be morally culpable for grandads debts .

This isn't actually true or anything new. We have always expected the next generation to pay the debts of the previous ones. It happens with all sorts of things. For example we didn't pay off world war 2 debt until 2006. http://www.independe...ars-430118.html

Germany didn't finish paying reparations for World War 1 until 2010.

http://www.telegraph...ially-ends.html

Which means every one of us has been paying off grandad's debt all our working lives. Paying off debts of previous generations is actually a non issue unless the reparations become onerous.

Edited by Control, 23 April 2012 - 06:57 AM.


#9 marceau

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 07:07 AM

This isn't actually true or anything new. We have always expected the next generation to pay the debts of the previous ones. It happens with all sorts of things. For example we didn't pay off world war 2 debt until 2006.

Germany didn't finish paying reparations for World War 1 until 2010.


Which means every one of us has been paying off grandad's debt all our working lives. Paying off debts of previous generations is actually a non issue unless the reparations become onerous.



Rubbish.

Key word is structural - those debts weren't, our debts are. Please take 2 minutes on google to understand the difference before spouting any establishment party line bilge.

You'd have thought that after this long people would have picked up on the difference between debt and deficit.

#10 fluffy666

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 07:57 AM

But what happens if austerity is inevitable (as many on here say) and nation state and regional governments have to impose it? Who are they going to blame if there's no EU to finger?


There is Austerity and Austerity..

Deflationary Austerity is where you try to cut nominal spending to balance the budget. This is the 'Canada Approach'; it works fine if you have low unemployment to start with and significant growth; i.e. in the good times. It also appeals to the 'shrink the government whenever' types. If you already have issues with a lack of demand, high unemployment and a shrinking economy.. then this approach is simply economic suicide; cuts mean higher unemployment and less demand, so less private sector activity and higher welfare bills. Meaning yet more cuts and more unemployment. So you end up with 50% youth unemployment and wonder why you still can't balance the budget..

Inflationary Austerity is where you quite deliberately spur inflation to double digit levels, whilst keeping tax bands in place (or only slowly raised), and restricting consumer/housing credit. So you effectively raise taxes, at least in nominal terms, whilst keeping unemployment low and demand high. Not fun for the retired or those sitting on large cash savings pots. Danger is that inflation goes completely out of control..

#11 Guest_Control_*

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:03 AM

Rubbish.

Key word is structural - those debts weren't, our debts are. Please take 2 minutes on google to understand the difference before spouting any establishment party line bilge.

You'd have thought that after this long people would have picked up on the difference between debt and deficit.

My aren't you het up. I have no party line, but your knee jerk reflex is keenly tuned to the monetarist propaganda channel it seems. Perhaps you could take fifteen seconds to read the the statement I was responding to and then re-read my response before blustering your own dogma. It makes no difference whether the debts are structural or not. We have always handed debt on to the next generation. It's the scale of the debt that matters. But that aside we've passed structural debt on for generations it is not a new thing.

#12 Georgia O'Keeffe

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:18 AM

My aren't you het up. I have no party line, but your knee jerk reflex is keenly tuned to the monetarist propaganda channel it seems. Perhaps you could take fifteen seconds to read the the statement I was responding to and then re-read my response before blustering your own dogma. It makes no difference whether the debts are structural or not. We have always handed debt on to the next generation. It's the scale of the debt that matters. But that aside we've passed structural debt on for generations it is not a new thing.

generally via the stupidity of wars as you allude to but to manage it on the back of nothing more than i want more, im entitled is no mean historical feat to be scoffed at

#13 Democorruptcy

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:26 AM

My aren't you het up. I have no party line, but your knee jerk reflex is keenly tuned to the monetarist propaganda channel it seems. Perhaps you could take fifteen seconds to read the the statement I was responding to and then re-read my response before blustering your own dogma. It makes no difference whether the debts are structural or not. We have always handed debt on to the next generation. It's the scale of the debt that matters. But that aside we've passed structural debt on for generations it is not a new thing.


Have EU governments always paid billions to US banks then demanded their people have austerity and work longer to pay for it?

Sub prime, interest rate swaps...

When Morgan Stanley (MS) said in January it had cut its “net exposure” to Italy by $3.4 billion, it didn’t tell investors that the nation paid that entire amount to the bank to exit a bet on interest rates.
http://www.businessw...exit-derivative

Democorruptcy
If you say "Democorruptcy" quickly, it sounds a bit like "Democracy". In a "Democracy" people vote for politicians who represent their interests. In the UK's "Democorruptcy" people can only vote for expense fiddling thieving MPs who are in the hip pocket of big business and the finance sector.

Governbankment
A "Governbankment" is a Government that has no line between itself and banks. It diverts public money (our taxes) to private companies (banks). George Osborne's Help to Buy Bail Banks, will see our taxes go to bankers to cover their losses on mortgages that default. The UK's Governbankment will even pay bankers "reasonable repossession fees" on Help to Bail Bank mortgages that default.

The Funding for Lending Scheme (FLS) is stealing from savers to make them pay for crimes by bankers. Via lower interest on savings, all the bank fines for PPI, LIBOR, interest rates swaps, etc. are being paid by savers so that bankers can keep pocketing bonuses. 

"We need to make a really big change: from an economy built on debt to an economy built on savings" - David Camoron Jan 2009
"Printing money is the last resort of desperate governments when all other policies have failed" - George Osborne Jan 2009
- So what do Camoron & Osborne do? Print money and leave interest rates at 0.5% when inflation is over 5%

If it is asserted that civilization is a real advance in the condition of man -- and I think that it is, though only the wise improve their advantages -- it must be shown that it has produced better dwellings without making them more costly; and the cost of a thing is the amount of what I will call life which is required to be exchanged for it, immediately or in the long run.
http://classiclit.ab...en-Part-2_4.htm

I want to tell you my secret now.... I see debt people


#14 Guest_Control_*

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:40 AM

Have EU governments always paid billions to US banks then demanded their people have austerity and work longer to pay for it?

Sub prime, interest rate swaps...

When Morgan Stanley (MS) said in January it had cut its “net exposure” to Italy by $3.4 billion, it didn’t tell investors that the nation paid that entire amount to the bank to exit a bet on interest rates.
http://www.businessw...exit-derivative

No, but I wan't responding to that, my response was to the related idea that it's somehow immoral to ask the unborn to pay garandad's debts when it's something that has happened regularly to many generations. I also made the point that it's the scale of the debt and or deficit that is the issue.

#15 Democorruptcy

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:43 AM

No, but I wan't responding to that, my response was to the related idea that it's somehow immoral to ask the unborn to pay garandad's debts when it's something that has happened regularly to many generations. I also made the point that it's the scale of the debt and or deficit that is the issue.


This time it isn't just structural debt though is it? It's grand scale theft.

Democorruptcy
If you say "Democorruptcy" quickly, it sounds a bit like "Democracy". In a "Democracy" people vote for politicians who represent their interests. In the UK's "Democorruptcy" people can only vote for expense fiddling thieving MPs who are in the hip pocket of big business and the finance sector.

Governbankment
A "Governbankment" is a Government that has no line between itself and banks. It diverts public money (our taxes) to private companies (banks). George Osborne's Help to Buy Bail Banks, will see our taxes go to bankers to cover their losses on mortgages that default. The UK's Governbankment will even pay bankers "reasonable repossession fees" on Help to Bail Bank mortgages that default.

The Funding for Lending Scheme (FLS) is stealing from savers to make them pay for crimes by bankers. Via lower interest on savings, all the bank fines for PPI, LIBOR, interest rates swaps, etc. are being paid by savers so that bankers can keep pocketing bonuses. 

"We need to make a really big change: from an economy built on debt to an economy built on savings" - David Camoron Jan 2009
"Printing money is the last resort of desperate governments when all other policies have failed" - George Osborne Jan 2009
- So what do Camoron & Osborne do? Print money and leave interest rates at 0.5% when inflation is over 5%

If it is asserted that civilization is a real advance in the condition of man -- and I think that it is, though only the wise improve their advantages -- it must be shown that it has produced better dwellings without making them more costly; and the cost of a thing is the amount of what I will call life which is required to be exchanged for it, immediately or in the long run.
http://classiclit.ab...en-Part-2_4.htm

I want to tell you my secret now.... I see debt people





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