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Flyer For The Masses?


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#1 wherebee

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 02:44 PM

Here's a challenge for you all. It should not be beyond the wit of us to draw up a simple, bullet point summary that we can pass to friends and relatives to try to bring a few more through the door of understanding just how bad HPI is and how the current generations are screwed compared to the 45-50+ generation.

so - can you give me 5-10 MAX bullet points, one sentence each that covers:

i) Why house price rises were a produce of slack credit, not wealth creation
ii) Why high house prices are bad for the UK, and do not benefit house owners
iii) Why grandparents and parents had it much easier in the 1960's-1980's re finding a place to live
iv) Why house prices may not crash in nominal currency but will (and have) crashed in real terms
v) Why governments should be held to account for failing the population for the past 30 years on this most important issue (maybe an example of a country where the gvt has done the right thing?)

Imagine if we can come up with a really tight, effective message. I am sure a number of us would flyer/circulate/poster. All to often we are accused of being a giant HPC circle-w$nk, so why not try to actually educate the masses....

And the reason I am posting this now is a mate has his father questioning why he really doesn't have any money left each month after servicing mortgage, car, bills, etc, even though he is on a fair wage in the south east. He didn't splurge, but the cost of buying a small house near a half decent school has crippled his family finances.

There is always death and taxes; however, death doesn't get worse every year.....

How the flipping 'eck did we get to 2014 without flying cars and laser guns?


#2 Gigantic Purple Slug

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 03:05 PM

Here's a challenge for you all. It should not be beyond the wit of us to draw up a simple, bullet point summary that we can pass to friends and relatives to try to bring a few more through the door of understanding just how bad HPI is and how the current generations are screwed compared to the 45-50+ generation.

so - can you give me 5-10 MAX bullet points, one sentence each that covers:

i) Why house price rises were a produce of slack credit, not wealth creation
ii) Why high house prices are bad for the UK, and do not benefit house owners
iii) Why grandparents and parents had it much easier in the 1960's-1980's re finding a place to live
iv) Why house prices may not crash in nominal currency but will (and have) crashed in real terms
v) Why governments should be held to account for failing the population for the past 30 years on this most important issue (maybe an example of a country where the gvt has done the right thing?)

Imagine if we can come up with a really tight, effective message. I am sure a number of us would flyer/circulate/poster. All to often we are accused of being a giant HPC circle-w$nk, so why not try to actually educate the masses....

And the reason I am posting this now is a mate has his father questioning why he really doesn't have any money left each month after servicing mortgage, car, bills, etc, even though he is on a fair wage in the south east. He didn't splurge, but the cost of buying a small house near a half decent school has crippled his family finances.


Nothing hits home like real numbers. Nebulous arguments are usually met with nebulous reponses.

If your mate wants his Dad to see the light he can always produce a spreadsheet with the outgoings and income.

Of course his Dad may then well ask why he spends 50 a month on Sky telly, loads on mobile phone subscriptions, a hefty weekly shopping bill etc.

I am not totally convinced grandparents did have it easier. They just had less things to spend the money on. Back in the day there were no mobile phones (in fact we didn't even get a landline till I was 4), no sky telly, no eating out once a month (in fact food was pretty shocking), lots of people didn't even have cars (if you beleive that), let alone 2 per family.

#3 MrPin

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 03:10 PM

Nothing hits home like real numbers. Nebulous arguments are usually met with nebulous reponses.


I am not totally convinced grandparents did have it easier. They just had less things to spend the money on. Back in the day there were no mobile phones (in fact we didn't even get a landline till I was 4), no sky telly, no eating out once a month (in fact food was pretty shocking), lots of people didn't even have cars (if you beleive that), let alone 2 per family.


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#4 bmf

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 03:12 PM

Nothing hits home like real numbers. Nebulous arguments are usually met with nebulous reponses.

If your mate wants his Dad to see the light he can always produce a spreadsheet with the outgoings and income.

Of course his Dad may then well ask why he spends 50 a month on Sky telly, loads on mobile phone subscriptions, a hefty weekly shopping bill etc.

I am not totally convinced grandparents did have it easier. They just had less things to spend the money on. Back in the day there were no mobile phones (in fact we didn't even get a landline till I was 4), no sky telly, no eating out once a month (in fact food was pretty shocking), lots of people didn't even have cars (if you beleive that), let alone 2 per family.


Good points. Car one is a bit more complicated as shops were distributed locally to account for low car ownership as opposed to the centralised model now that pushes transportation costs onto the shopper.

#5 Gigantic Purple Slug

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 03:22 PM

Fashion is another one.

In general designer gear was not accessible to the masses until about 1980 IIRC. Foreign holidays were also a lot less common.

In general you left school, got a job then got married. When you got married you got a house with your wife and had kids. Then the going out stopped, and all the money went on bills.

I remember as a kid my Dad giving up smoking because it was too expensive. Two bottles of Nukey Brown a week was his luxury.

A lot of boomers may be having it easy now, but that doesn't mean they didn't have some tough times in the past.

I guess the biggest difference though is the level of distraction. These days you are bombarded with adverts for stuff and there are multiple different things you can spend your money on. Eating out, AV gear, computer games, fashion, holidays, cars. Back in the 70s there was much less to distract you, and peoples expectations were less.

#6 bmf

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 03:31 PM

Fashion is another one.

In general designer gear was not accessible to the masses until about 1980 IIRC. Foreign holidays were also a lot less common.

In general you left school, got a job then got married. When you got married you got a house with your wife and had kids. Then the going out stopped, and all the money went on bills.

I remember as a kid my Dad giving up smoking because it was too expensive. Two bottles of Nukey Brown a week was his luxury.

A lot of boomers may be having it easy now, but that doesn't mean they didn't have some tough times in the past.

I guess the biggest difference though is the level of distraction. These days you are bombarded with adverts for stuff and there are multiple different things you can spend your money on. Eating out, AV gear, computer games, fashion, holidays, cars. Back in the 70s there was much less to distract you, and peoples expectations were less.


I can agree that all this has changed. However I have kids, don't go out, spend next to nothing and earn multiples of the average wage. I can report from this extensive case study that it makes no difference compared to house prices increasing from the base 100 to 350 in my area (which is not a "bling" area).

The "you've got ipads now" argument does not, in my experience, hold water.

Edited by bmf, 15 April 2012 - 03:32 PM.


#7 Gigantic Purple Slug

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 03:43 PM

I can agree that all this has changed. However I have kids, don't go out, spend next to nothing and earn multiples of the average wage. I can report from this extensive case study that it makes no difference compared to house prices increasing from the base 100 to 350 in my area (which is not a "bling" area).

The "you've got ipads now" argument does not, in my experience, hold water.


I think you are right, it cannot explain the entire situation.

But as I said early, nebulous arguments produce nebulous responses. If I went to my Dad and said, you don't know how easy you had it back in the day, I'd probably get a mouthful, and probably quite rightly so given the sacrifices he made to bring up his children.

Ultimately you'll have a hard time convincing most boomers that "they had it easy and it's much more difficult now", in the same way you'd probably have dificulty convincing anyone under the age of 30 that a mobile phone isn't "essential".

#8 bmf

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 03:47 PM

I think you are right, it cannot explain the entire situation.

But as I said early, nebulous arguments produce nebulous responses. If I went to my Dad and said, you don't know how easy you had it back in the day, I'd probably get a mouthful, and probably quite rightly so given the sacrifices he made to bring up his children.

Ultimately you'll have a hard time convincing most boomers that "they had it easy and it's much more difficult now", in the same way you'd probably have dificulty convincing anyone under the age of 30 that a mobile phone isn't "essential".


I think you are stereotyping young people here. I bet if you spoke to many people aged 20 to 30 you could have a very reasonable conversation with them about why mobiles are not essential. I think if you offered any of these people the chance to have a home or a world where a mobile is common 100% would say the former.

There's no justifying the gap.

Edited by bmf, 15 April 2012 - 03:48 PM.


#9 AteMoose

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 03:57 PM

Yes there was a very scary flyer created in 2005, if you go through my historic posts you will bump into it as I remember commenting on that thread.

Edited by AteMoose, 15 April 2012 - 04:13 PM.

I have bought a newish (5 years) house in November 2006. I talked the vendor down 30% off peak 2004 price am am paying less than the 2002 price. I feel prices will continue to drop down to the 2001 price but saving for 5 years hopefully means i wont be stung. The price i am paying isn't much above the price the vendor paid for the place when it was new in 2000. However some idiot is trying to flog an identical house on my road for 55k above the price i paid, one month later!?!?! The housing market is frothy, no-one ever knows what the value of a house is, the value is what someone is willing to pay, make sure you pay alot less than the asking price.

Free to collect, like ebay but you dont pay, you just have to collect

QUOTE (sledgehead)If you make a living from something, you are a professional something: it is your profession. You could bake dog turds and flog them as ornaments. If that's how you make your living, you ARE a professional dog-turd baker. Period
QUOTE (Rolling Stone 13th July 2000)The first thing you need to know about Goldman Sachs is that it's everywhere. The world's most powerful investment bank is a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money.

QUOTE (Soon Not a Chain Retailer @ Aug 30 2009, 01:03 AM) Society should provide trampolines not safety nets.

QUOTE (GordonBrown Jan 27 2008 (warning about the coming inflation?))if you don't get the skills you wont get a job
if you get the skills you will earn ALOT of money

#10 Gigantic Purple Slug

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 03:59 PM

Yes there was a very scary flyer created in 2005.


Did it say the world was going to run out of oil and we should start stockpiling guns, gold and beans immediately ?

#11 AteMoose

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 04:16 PM

Did it say the world was going to run out of oil and we should start stockpiling guns, gold and beans immediately ?

No it had the hpi chart on the right and side and two colums of text. It told people to sell now to avoid the crash, and gave a warning to FTBers. It laid out the history, and I think it might have explained the credit crunch? Decade of crashing prices, poverty etc etc...

Edited by AteMoose, 15 April 2012 - 04:16 PM.

I have bought a newish (5 years) house in November 2006. I talked the vendor down 30% off peak 2004 price am am paying less than the 2002 price. I feel prices will continue to drop down to the 2001 price but saving for 5 years hopefully means i wont be stung. The price i am paying isn't much above the price the vendor paid for the place when it was new in 2000. However some idiot is trying to flog an identical house on my road for 55k above the price i paid, one month later!?!?! The housing market is frothy, no-one ever knows what the value of a house is, the value is what someone is willing to pay, make sure you pay alot less than the asking price.

Free to collect, like ebay but you dont pay, you just have to collect

QUOTE (sledgehead)If you make a living from something, you are a professional something: it is your profession. You could bake dog turds and flog them as ornaments. If that's how you make your living, you ARE a professional dog-turd baker. Period
QUOTE (Rolling Stone 13th July 2000)The first thing you need to know about Goldman Sachs is that it's everywhere. The world's most powerful investment bank is a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money.

QUOTE (Soon Not a Chain Retailer @ Aug 30 2009, 01:03 AM) Society should provide trampolines not safety nets.

QUOTE (GordonBrown Jan 27 2008 (warning about the coming inflation?))if you don't get the skills you wont get a job
if you get the skills you will earn ALOT of money

#12 bland unsight

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 05:34 PM

Here's a challenge for you all. It should not be beyond the wit of us to draw up a simple, bullet point summary that we can pass to friends and relatives to try to bring a few more through the door of understanding just how bad HPI is and how the current generations are screwed compared to the 45-50+ generation.

so - can you give me 5-10 MAX bullet points, one sentence each that covers:

i) Why house price rises were a produce of slack credit, not wealth creation
ii) Why high house prices are bad for the UK, and do not benefit house owners
iii) Why grandparents and parents had it much easier in the 1960's-1980's re finding a place to live
iv) Why house prices may not crash in nominal currency but will (and have) crashed in real terms
v) Why governments should be held to account for failing the population for the past 30 years on this most important issue (maybe an example of a country where the gvt has done the right thing?)

Imagine if we can come up with a really tight, effective message. I am sure a number of us would flyer/circulate/poster. All to often we are accused of being a giant HPC circle-w$nk, so why not try to actually educate the masses....

And the reason I am posting this now is a mate has his father questioning why he really doesn't have any money left each month after servicing mortgage, car, bills, etc, even though he is on a fair wage in the south east. He didn't splurge, but the cost of buying a small house near a half decent school has crippled his family finances.


I thought of a nice way to explain this.

You have 1,000 First class stamps because you need to post a thousand letters

The next day somebody tells you that stamps have gone up in price to 60p.

You look at your 600 of stamps which you bought for only 460 and start imagining what you'll spend the free money on.

You agree to sell your stamps to someone in the nearest town. You drive over, costing you 5 of petrol and they give you the 600. You drive to your bank, costing another 5 in petrol, and hand to hand in the money and the teller tells you that one of the 20 notes is a fake. After petrol and the fake you have 570. Not bad, 110 up.

Then you remember that you have to buy the stamps, so walk go to the Post Office and had over the money and the teller gives you 950 stamps. You post the letters that are going to other towns and spend the rest of the day delivering letters.

Houses are like the stamps. You needed to post the letters, so you need stamps. You need somewhere to live, so you need a house. House price inflation doesn't help you if you are still going to need a house because everyone else's house is inflating too.

All that should matter to you is how house price inflation compares to and your wage inflation. If house prices increase faster than your wages it's a bad thing because it will take you longer to save up enough to get a bigger, better house in a nicer place.
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#13 concerned_money

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 05:40 PM

Imagine if we can come up with a really tight, effective message. I am sure a number of us would flyer/circulate/poster. All to often we are accused of being a giant HPC circle-w$nk, so why not try to actually educate the masses....


I think if your message is effective you'll end up in a bag, you inside, in a bath

#14 bland unsight

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 05:41 PM

Basically our broken mortgage market has told people that their houses are worth a lot, it just forgot to tell them that it's now going to be 30 years, (or whatever), not 10 years, before the person in the house they want to trade down to will be able save up enough to afford the house they want to sell.

Hope that helps.

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#15 nmarks

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:20 PM

House price inflation. Like petrol price inflation, but with twigs in vases.
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