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Minimum Wage Increase For Adults, Nothing For The Youth


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#16 bewildered_renter

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 03:12 PM

That productivity increases in that scheme is a given, it's just a product of automation.

Remind me when was minimum wage introduced and where does it fit on that graph.


1999

#17 Ascii

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 03:20 PM

1999

what does the Median wage do there then.

Edited by Ascii, 19 March 2012 - 03:20 PM.


#18 easy2012

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 03:59 PM

It makes perfect sense. All the minimum wage has done has reduce productivity. Without a minimum wage you're rewarded according to productivity with minimum wage the reward for outstanding production is removed hence productivity drops to a consistent low level; what was the film - was it I'm All right Jack?


Indeed. UK Unit labour cost and unit wage cost has been rising more or less every quarter since 2008. Normally, the unit labour cost should fall with technological advances and improved experiences..

It will take a long time for many of the public to accept that UK is not that productive and the prosperity was to an extend, an illusion.

#19 OnlyMe

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 04:31 PM

Which is another way of saying that productivity has declined. The comparison has to be against other economies not against previous production which is meaningless.


Exactly.
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#20 RufflesTheGuineaPig

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 05:08 PM

Productivity has house prices have risen and wages havent kept up with productivity house prices,

Fixed!
It's time to pay the piper. There is no magician who will magic away the debt. Someone is going to have to pay it. Bend over and prepare to make payment.

In this glorious nation of ours, if you work hard and keep your head down for 25 years then you too can aspire to own one-eighth of a one bedroom flat in Manchester.


My mum and day always tell me how important it is to save to buy a house. They should know, it took them nearly 6 months to save for theirs. As teenagers, they bought a 3 bed semi.

#21 Ascii

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 05:16 PM

or a little more precisely, cost of living has increased (which of course is influenced heavily by the cost of shelter).

#22 Ash4781

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 05:35 PM

I read one news article headline this morning that had minimum wage to rise 11p! I have not read the article so I dont know if it is correct.

#23 R K

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 06:18 PM

In a competitive market, a lot of companies don't have a choice. How is farmer going to explain to Tesco that the price of his vegetables is 20% higher than the next guys because he's decided to pay his workers more than the market rate? How long is he going to be around? And if Tesco agrees to pay more, how long are they going to be around when they raise their prices by 20%?


You are Karl Marx and I claim my 4.98


Large landed property, as we see in England, has already cast off its feudal character and adopted an industrial character insofar as it is aiming to make as much money as possible. To the owner it yields the utmost possible rent, to the tenant farmer the utmost possible profit on his capital. The workers on the land, in consequence, have already been reduced to the minimum, and the class of tenant farmers already represents within landed property the power of industry and capital. As a result of foreign competition, rent in most cases can no longer form an independent income. A large number of landowners are forced to displace tenant farmers, some of whom in this way [...] sink into the proletariat. On the other hand, many tenant farmers will take over landed property; for the big proprietors, who with their comfortable incomes have mostly given themselves over to extravagance and for the most part are not competent to conduct large-scale agriculture, often possess neither the capital nor the ability for the exploitation of the land. Hence a section of this class, too, is completely ruined. Eventually wages, which have already been reduced to a minimum, must be reduced yet further, to meet the new competition. This then necessarily leads to revolution.



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#24 winkie

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 06:21 PM

Low wages have been topped up with benefits. :blink:
What you don't owe won't worry you.

Less can be more.

#25 Ash4781

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 06:55 PM

I read one news article headline this morning that had minimum wage to rise 11p! I have not read the article so I dont know if it is correct.


http://www.bbc.co.uk...siness-17429325

'Minimum wage to rise by 11p an hour'

#26 winkie

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 06:58 PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17429325

'Minimum wage to rise by 11p an hour'


...enough to buy an egg sandwich for lunch....one meal sorted. ;)
What you don't owe won't worry you.

Less can be more.

#27 bewildered_renter

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 07:02 PM

what does the Median wage do there then.


From the graph that was posted, wages appear to rise for a while.

However, IIRC, I've seen similar graphs before, and I don't think they are UK specific and cover the US too.

The old way of setting minimum wages in the UK was via the wage councils (incidentally not popular with the trade unions) and I believe they were abolished in the mid 1980s.

On your other point of the NMW killing productivity because it destroys the incentive to work hard, not sure I agree. My experience is that if you go the extra mile you might get a few shopping vouchers as a reward (if you're lucky) but it won't translate into better wages.
You're just part of the headcount, and senior management will treat you as such.

#28 frederico

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 07:10 PM

That makes no sense. Despite the predictions, the introduction of the minimum wage did not crash the economy, and it works perfectly well in other European countries too. What is clearly wrong is that some benefits are too high - particularly related to housing. For work to pay, it's benefits that need to be cut, not wages.

Benefits are a massive problem that they haven't even started to tackle.. yet

as usual, it's the old chicken and egg, reduce housing costs to reduce benefits.
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McDonald's says it will create 2,500 new jobs across the UK this year, taking its workforce to 90,000

#29 Olebrum

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 07:14 PM

the rate for apprentices jumps 5p to 2.65 an hour

WOW that's very good, it's what I was on as an apprentice




in 1983
The possession of a cow or two, with a hog, and a few geese, naturally exalts the peasant. . . . In sauntering after his cattle, he acquires a habit of indolence.

Of all the preposterous assumptions of humanity over humanity, nothing exceeds most of the criticisms made on the habits of the poor by the well-housed, well-warmed, and well-fed.

#30 Ascii

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 07:33 PM

From the graph that was posted, wages appear to rise for a while.


It was rhetorical, but not to worry.

Median income falls and plateaus - broadly speaking what I would expect to see but not conclusive by any means.

Ignore hourly rates, they aren't relevant. If factory X produces 20% widgets more an hour through automation hours available will fall accordingly and wages will inexorably rise a little just not by a factor linked in any way to productivity since productivity isn't a function of the workers labour; it's a function of investment.

On your other point of the NMW killing productivity because it destroys the incentive to work hard, not sure I agree. My experience is that if you go the extra mile you might get a few shopping vouchers as a reward (if you're lucky) but it won't translate into better wages.
You're just part of the headcount, and senior management will treat you as such.


As a member of "senior management" I take your point. It's certainly not the rule that exceeding expectation or standing out in terms of production from the crowd (I'm assuming that's what you mean by going the extra mile) will result in increased pay but in instances where it doesn't your just defining a different local minimum. The incentive again is not there.

There are certainly companies that have rigid structures in place and no amount of excess production will result in increased salary. However that is just minimum wage on a smaller scale - in such environments productivity for all approaches a level somewhere near the lowest common denominator. To achieve the best, you need the best people and to recruit those you need to offer rewards commensurate with output/quality etc.

In the right environment though, the progress can be rapid. (personally from accounts clerk to UK sales manager of 7m turnover company in 4 years or in terms of salary 8250pa to c 60k pa when I left after about 10 years later). Wish I earned that now. I'm a believer in paying people according to ability; most entrepreneurs would I think say the same. There is a caveat to add though - you do have to ask and be prepared to move on if it doesn't come. It you don't ask you won't get, and your manager's job is to buy your labour as cheaply as possible.

Anyway, I digress. I stand by the original statement. Commensense suggest suggests it would be so. I suppose an extreme example would be communism/socialism, from each according, to each according etc. In that instance the rewards are the same irrespective of input. In general I don't think those kind of economies do to well.




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