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Just wondering what the position is.
I'm renting a flat in a big house converted to flats for the last year or so.
Years ago, a big water leak in this flat, caused serious damage to the under-neighbour's flat, for which the buildings insurers (block policy) paid.
Recently, a slow water leak developed in my bathroom (not visible in the bathroom).
Eventually damage starts occurring to the under-neighbour's ceiling.
I identify a leak and repair it, after smashing down a wall which appeared slightly damp, to reveal the leaking pipe. LL grateful.
Buildings insurer pay for extensive repairs to replace the smashy-smashy, rotten floor-boards, and wall battens and other.
Neighbour's ceiling drys out, but no formal repair undertaken or claim lodged with insurer.
During bathroom repair work, under neighbour sees water coming through the ceiling and tells plumbers. They take a look, can't find a leak, don't take any action to stop it, and anyway, the water had been turned off at the main stopcock. Water eventually stops dripping.
Neigbour threatens legal action against the plumber for damage to the ceiling.
Independent surveyor and the plumber's surveyor attend and thoroughly inspect my flat and the neighbour's flat. They find no evidence of a leak in my flat, and a possible leak in the neighbour's flat which would not correlate with the location of my bathroom. The surveyor's report speculates that this may be a weather sealing problem on a boiler vent.
Neighbour is now trying to sell, so is trying to get somone to pay for ceiling repairs. She is now threatening both me and my landlord with legal action to recover the cost of a new ceiling - on the basis that we are refusing to fix a leak.
The problem is that all the pipework is installed either in the walls, or under glued-wood or tiled floors. There is very limited access to get to the pipes, and no signs of damp anywhere. I had to smash down a plasterboard wall to find the leaking pipes in the bathroom (and at that time, there was an active leak, and careful inspection did reveal damp on the wall). It'll be even more difficult in the kitchen, or in the now refitted bathroom (there is no active leak at present, and no visible damp anywhere).
Is this legal claim likely to be spurious? What would be the best thing to do? Surely, the neighbour should be approaching the buildings insurers.
Question About Water Leaks In Flats
Damage to downstairs flat
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#2
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Posted 10 March 2012 - 01:18 PM
ChumpusRex, on 10 March 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:
Just wondering what the position is.
I'm renting a flat in a big house converted to flats for the last year or so.
Years ago, a big water leak in this flat, caused serious damage to the under-neighbour's flat, for which the buildings insurers (block policy) paid.
Recently, a slow water leak developed in my bathroom (not visible in the bathroom).
Eventually damage starts occurring to the under-neighbour's ceiling.
I identify a leak and repair it, after smashing down a wall which appeared slightly damp, to reveal the leaking pipe. LL grateful.
Buildings insurer pay for extensive repairs to replace the smashy-smashy, rotten floor-boards, and wall battens and other.
Neighbour's ceiling drys out, but no formal repair undertaken or claim lodged with insurer.
During bathroom repair work, under neighbour sees water coming through the ceiling and tells plumbers. They take a look, can't find a leak, don't take any action to stop it, and anyway, the water had been turned off at the main stopcock. Water eventually stops dripping.
Neigbour threatens legal action against the plumber for damage to the ceiling.
Independent surveyor and the plumber's surveyor attend and thoroughly inspect my flat and the neighbour's flat. They find no evidence of a leak in my flat, and a possible leak in the neighbour's flat which would not correlate with the location of my bathroom. The surveyor's report speculates that this may be a weather sealing problem on a boiler vent.
Neighbour is now trying to sell, so is trying to get somone to pay for ceiling repairs. She is now threatening both me and my landlord with legal action to recover the cost of a new ceiling - on the basis that we are refusing to fix a leak.
The problem is that all the pipework is installed either in the walls, or under glued-wood or tiled floors. There is very limited access to get to the pipes, and no signs of damp anywhere. I had to smash down a plasterboard wall to find the leaking pipes in the bathroom (and at that time, there was an active leak, and careful inspection did reveal damp on the wall). It'll be even more difficult in the kitchen, or in the now refitted bathroom (there is no active leak at present, and no visible damp anywhere).
Is this legal claim likely to be spurious? What would be the best thing to do? Surely, the neighbour should be approaching the buildings insurers.
I'm renting a flat in a big house converted to flats for the last year or so.
Years ago, a big water leak in this flat, caused serious damage to the under-neighbour's flat, for which the buildings insurers (block policy) paid.
Recently, a slow water leak developed in my bathroom (not visible in the bathroom).
Eventually damage starts occurring to the under-neighbour's ceiling.
I identify a leak and repair it, after smashing down a wall which appeared slightly damp, to reveal the leaking pipe. LL grateful.
Buildings insurer pay for extensive repairs to replace the smashy-smashy, rotten floor-boards, and wall battens and other.
Neighbour's ceiling drys out, but no formal repair undertaken or claim lodged with insurer.
During bathroom repair work, under neighbour sees water coming through the ceiling and tells plumbers. They take a look, can't find a leak, don't take any action to stop it, and anyway, the water had been turned off at the main stopcock. Water eventually stops dripping.
Neigbour threatens legal action against the plumber for damage to the ceiling.
Independent surveyor and the plumber's surveyor attend and thoroughly inspect my flat and the neighbour's flat. They find no evidence of a leak in my flat, and a possible leak in the neighbour's flat which would not correlate with the location of my bathroom. The surveyor's report speculates that this may be a weather sealing problem on a boiler vent.
Neighbour is now trying to sell, so is trying to get somone to pay for ceiling repairs. She is now threatening both me and my landlord with legal action to recover the cost of a new ceiling - on the basis that we are refusing to fix a leak.
The problem is that all the pipework is installed either in the walls, or under glued-wood or tiled floors. There is very limited access to get to the pipes, and no signs of damp anywhere. I had to smash down a plasterboard wall to find the leaking pipes in the bathroom (and at that time, there was an active leak, and careful inspection did reveal damp on the wall). It'll be even more difficult in the kitchen, or in the now refitted bathroom (there is no active leak at present, and no visible damp anywhere).
Is this legal claim likely to be spurious? What would be the best thing to do? Surely, the neighbour should be approaching the buildings insurers.
You should have never tried to repair it, it should have been left to the landlord, there maybe a possibility that she could sue you.Then again services act 1982 you could claim from the plumber if it wasnt fixed as it should be.
This post has been edited by crash2006: 10 March 2012 - 01:19 PM
Who controls the food supply controls the people; who controls the energy can control whole continents; who controls money can control the world.
Privatize the profits socialize the losses.
what i think the coming year will bring
">
http://william-king.www.drexel.edu/top/Pri...money/MOH1.html
i'm an economic prop3rty expertWe did'nt see this comingBiflation
Privatize the profits socialize the losses.
what i think the coming year will bring
">
http://william-king.www.drexel.edu/top/Pri...money/MOH1.html
i'm an economic prop3rty expertWe did'nt see this comingBiflation
#3
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Posted 10 March 2012 - 01:22 PM
Have a quiet word with your neighbour and tell them about what happened to your friend. The one who complained about a leak upstairs so the people upstairs left their taps running while they went out for the day. Rather than just the ceiling having a problem it dropped onto the floor.
If you say "democorruptcy" quickly, it sounds a bit like "democracy". In a "democracy" people vote for politicians who represent their interests. In the UK's "democorruptcy" people can only vote for expense fiddling thieving MPs who are in the hip pocket of big business and the finance sector.
The Funding for Lending Scheme (FLS) is stealing from savers to make them pay for crimes by bankers. Via lower interest on savings, all the bank fines for PPI, LIBOR and interest rates swaps are now being paid by savers so that bankers can keep pocketing bonuses.
"We need to make a really big change: from an economy built on debt to an economy built on savings" - David Camoron Jan 2009
"Printing money is the last resort of desperate governments when all other policies have failed" - George Osborne Jan 2009
- So what do Camoron & Osborne do? Print money and leave interest rates at 0.5% when inflation is over 5%
If it is asserted that civilization is a real advance in the condition of man -- and I think that it is, though only the wise improve their advantages -- it must be shown that it has produced better dwellings without making them more costly; and the cost of a thing is the amount of what I will call life which is required to be exchanged for it, immediately or in the long run.
http://classiclit.ab...en-Part-2_4.htm
Did you recognise the two robbers in my avatar? Clue: One got a knighthood and inflation linked pension, the other a 150 year prison sentence.
The Funding for Lending Scheme (FLS) is stealing from savers to make them pay for crimes by bankers. Via lower interest on savings, all the bank fines for PPI, LIBOR and interest rates swaps are now being paid by savers so that bankers can keep pocketing bonuses.
"We need to make a really big change: from an economy built on debt to an economy built on savings" - David Camoron Jan 2009
"Printing money is the last resort of desperate governments when all other policies have failed" - George Osborne Jan 2009
- So what do Camoron & Osborne do? Print money and leave interest rates at 0.5% when inflation is over 5%
If it is asserted that civilization is a real advance in the condition of man -- and I think that it is, though only the wise improve their advantages -- it must be shown that it has produced better dwellings without making them more costly; and the cost of a thing is the amount of what I will call life which is required to be exchanged for it, immediately or in the long run.
http://classiclit.ab...en-Part-2_4.htm
Did you recognise the two robbers in my avatar? Clue: One got a knighthood and inflation linked pension, the other a 150 year prison sentence.
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Posted 10 March 2012 - 01:23 PM
crash2006, on 10 March 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:
You should have never tried to repair it, it should have been left to the landlord, there maybe a possibility that she could sue you.Then again services act 1982 you could claim from the plumber if it wasnt fixed as it should be.
The leak occurred on a Sunday night. I contacted the landlord, who said that as it was an emergency and as I was competent to do the job, that I could go ahead. I made a temporary fix. The landlord got an independent plumber in as a non-emergency on Monday, to check and properly fix my temporary repair.
Things were fine, until about 8 weeks later, when major renovation works started to repair the hidden damage. It was during these renovation works that a 2nd leak was alleged to have occurred.
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Posted 10 March 2012 - 01:42 PM
ChumpusRex, on 10 March 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:
Just wondering what the position is.
I'm renting a flat in a big house converted to flats for the last year or so.
Years ago, a big water leak in this flat, caused serious damage to the under-neighbour's flat, for which the buildings insurers (block policy) paid.
Recently, a slow water leak developed in my bathroom (not visible in the bathroom).
Eventually damage starts occurring to the under-neighbour's ceiling.
I identify a leak and repair it, after smashing down a wall which appeared slightly damp, to reveal the leaking pipe. LL grateful.
Buildings insurer pay for extensive repairs to replace the smashy-smashy, rotten floor-boards, and wall battens and other.
Neighbour's ceiling drys out, but no formal repair undertaken or claim lodged with insurer.
During bathroom repair work, under neighbour sees water coming through the ceiling and tells plumbers. They take a look, can't find a leak, don't take any action to stop it, and anyway, the water had been turned off at the main stopcock. Water eventually stops dripping.
Neigbour threatens legal action against the plumber for damage to the ceiling.
Independent surveyor and the plumber's surveyor attend and thoroughly inspect my flat and the neighbour's flat. They find no evidence of a leak in my flat, and a possible leak in the neighbour's flat which would not correlate with the location of my bathroom. The surveyor's report speculates that this may be a weather sealing problem on a boiler vent.
Neighbour is now trying to sell, so is trying to get somone to pay for ceiling repairs. She is now threatening both me and my landlord with legal action to recover the cost of a new ceiling - on the basis that we are refusing to fix a leak.
The problem is that all the pipework is installed either in the walls, or under glued-wood or tiled floors. There is very limited access to get to the pipes, and no signs of damp anywhere. I had to smash down a plasterboard wall to find the leaking pipes in the bathroom (and at that time, there was an active leak, and careful inspection did reveal damp on the wall). It'll be even more difficult in the kitchen, or in the now refitted bathroom (there is no active leak at present, and no visible damp anywhere).
Is this legal claim likely to be spurious? What would be the best thing to do? Surely, the neighbour should be approaching the buildings insurers.
I'm renting a flat in a big house converted to flats for the last year or so.
Years ago, a big water leak in this flat, caused serious damage to the under-neighbour's flat, for which the buildings insurers (block policy) paid.
Recently, a slow water leak developed in my bathroom (not visible in the bathroom).
Eventually damage starts occurring to the under-neighbour's ceiling.
I identify a leak and repair it, after smashing down a wall which appeared slightly damp, to reveal the leaking pipe. LL grateful.
Buildings insurer pay for extensive repairs to replace the smashy-smashy, rotten floor-boards, and wall battens and other.
Neighbour's ceiling drys out, but no formal repair undertaken or claim lodged with insurer.
During bathroom repair work, under neighbour sees water coming through the ceiling and tells plumbers. They take a look, can't find a leak, don't take any action to stop it, and anyway, the water had been turned off at the main stopcock. Water eventually stops dripping.
Neigbour threatens legal action against the plumber for damage to the ceiling.
Independent surveyor and the plumber's surveyor attend and thoroughly inspect my flat and the neighbour's flat. They find no evidence of a leak in my flat, and a possible leak in the neighbour's flat which would not correlate with the location of my bathroom. The surveyor's report speculates that this may be a weather sealing problem on a boiler vent.
Neighbour is now trying to sell, so is trying to get somone to pay for ceiling repairs. She is now threatening both me and my landlord with legal action to recover the cost of a new ceiling - on the basis that we are refusing to fix a leak.
The problem is that all the pipework is installed either in the walls, or under glued-wood or tiled floors. There is very limited access to get to the pipes, and no signs of damp anywhere. I had to smash down a plasterboard wall to find the leaking pipes in the bathroom (and at that time, there was an active leak, and careful inspection did reveal damp on the wall). It'll be even more difficult in the kitchen, or in the now refitted bathroom (there is no active leak at present, and no visible damp anywhere).
Is this legal claim likely to be spurious? What would be the best thing to do? Surely, the neighbour should be approaching the buildings insurers.
As an estate caretaker for some years I have seen this sort of issue crop up many times.
If you have a leak in your flat your first duty is to attempt to stop it. That is why your land lord has to have building insurance or the Freeholder should have. All you need to do is join in the effing and blinding at the inconvenience of it all. You attempts to stop a leak is your liability but no court would expect you to bear costs. You should claim from your household insurance for the damage needed to find the leek. Your household insurance should if it is in your name should protect you from legal issues. If it doesn't go to the Prudential next time .
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Posted 10 March 2012 - 02:12 PM
Rain, on 10 March 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:
As an estate caretaker for some years I have seen this sort of issue crop up many times.
If you have a leak in your flat your first duty is to attempt to stop it. That is why your land lord has to have building insurance or the Freeholder should have. All you need to do is join in the effing and blinding at the inconvenience of it all. You attempts to stop a leak is your liability but no court would expect you to bear costs. You should claim from your household insurance for the damage needed to find the leek. Your household insurance should if it is in your name should protect you from legal issues. If it doesn't go to the Prudential next time .
If you have a leak in your flat your first duty is to attempt to stop it. That is why your land lord has to have building insurance or the Freeholder should have. All you need to do is join in the effing and blinding at the inconvenience of it all. You attempts to stop a leak is your liability but no court would expect you to bear costs. You should claim from your household insurance for the damage needed to find the leek. Your household insurance should if it is in your name should protect you from legal issues. If it doesn't go to the Prudential next time .
I had in the past a problem with dampness in a bathroom, I was doing work in the bathroom anyway and though the local authority was unable to track down a leak, I did by taking down part of the partion wall to see into the risery. However, I was unable to see any leakages and I left the hole open and discovered that when it rained there was rain water running on the outside of the drain pipe. The pipe had vertical cracks in several sections, it cost many thousands for the council to repair by running an internal pipe sleeve inside the original pipe.
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Posted 10 March 2012 - 03:51 PM
Rain, on 10 March 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:
As an estate caretaker for some years I have seen this sort of issue crop up many times.
If you have a leak in your flat your first duty is to attempt to stop it.
If you have a leak in your flat your first duty is to attempt to stop it.
Er, nope. Your first duty as a tenant is to report it to the landlord for him to attempt to stop it. Tenant not liable. Tenant no touchy watery fountain. Tenant duty to pay rent only.
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Posted 10 March 2012 - 04:01 PM
Sir Sidney Ruff-Diamond, on 10 March 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:
Er, nope. Your first duty as a tenant is to report it to the landlord for him to attempt to stop it. Tenant not liable. Tenant no touchy watery fountain. Tenant duty to pay rent only.
Yup this.
You made a temporary repair by the acquiescence of the landlord. After that the LL 'made' a proper repair. Your duty in all of that was precisely zero. You just did him a favour as it were. You have zero liability. If it was not fixed properly after or another leak occurred then that has nothing to do with you - the landlords responsibility and liability. You should tell the below stairs owner of this, save you and him a lot hassle, when he wont get anything from you in the end anyways.
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Posted 10 March 2012 - 04:09 PM
Rain, on 10 March 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:
As an estate caretaker for some years I have seen this sort of issue crop up many times.
If you have a leak in your flat your first duty is to attempt to stop it. That is why your land lord has to have building insurance or the Freeholder should have. All you need to do is join in the effing and blinding at the inconvenience of it all. You attempts to stop a leak is your liability but no court would expect you to bear costs. You should claim from your household insurance for the damage needed to find the leek. Your household insurance should if it is in your name should protect you from legal issues. If it doesn't go to the Prudential next time .
If you have a leak in your flat your first duty is to attempt to stop it. That is why your land lord has to have building insurance or the Freeholder should have. All you need to do is join in the effing and blinding at the inconvenience of it all. You attempts to stop a leak is your liability but no court would expect you to bear costs. You should claim from your household insurance for the damage needed to find the leek. Your household insurance should if it is in your name should protect you from legal issues. If it doesn't go to the Prudential next time .
We had a leak in our flat and contacted our insurers of our contents to find out what the situation was re damage to our household items. The first question they asked was whether the leak was due to negligence on our part, e.g. leaving the bath water running and it overtopping the bath. In this case clearly not, since it was to the roof. They then said the landlord had to fix it, and any damage to our goods had to be covered by the landlord. Of course, the landlord refused, so we went back to our insurers who wrote to the landlord, who duly paid up. OH yes, and they said on no attempt were we to attempt to fix the leak even if we felt competent to do so and even if the landlord said we could.
Moral of this story? Renting is cheap compared to buying, but you get what you pay for and it can be a real hassle.
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Posted 10 March 2012 - 04:24 PM
alexw, on 10 March 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:
Yup this.
You made a temporary repair by the acquiescence of the landlord. After that the LL 'made' a proper repair. Your duty in all of that was precisely zero. You just did him a favour as it were. You have zero liability. If it was not fixed properly after or another leak occurred then that has nothing to do with you - the landlords responsibility and liability. You should tell the below stairs owner of this, save you and him a lot hassle, when he wont get anything from you in the end anyways.
You made a temporary repair by the acquiescence of the landlord. After that the LL 'made' a proper repair. Your duty in all of that was precisely zero. You just did him a favour as it were. You have zero liability. If it was not fixed properly after or another leak occurred then that has nothing to do with you - the landlords responsibility and liability. You should tell the below stairs owner of this, save you and him a lot hassle, when he wont get anything from you in the end anyways.
True. But the landlord is doing everything they can.
I've already had builders, plumbers, surveyors, various representatives of the building management company, etc. visiting and poking around. None can find a leak in this flat, and while they have found water leaking in the flat below, they say it's unlikely to be coming from this flat, and is probably coming from an inadequately sealed boiler flue in the damaged flat. They also say it is unlikely to be anything in my flat, as at the time the 2nd alleged leak occurred, the water supply to my flat was shut off.
The problem is that if any additional leak finding work is going to need to be done - it's going to be massively disruptive; floors ripped up, kitchen appliances removed. The LL doesn't want that, and I certainly don't want that - but if the buildings insurer wants to pay, then we'll both put up with it.
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Posted 10 March 2012 - 04:32 PM
ChumpusRex, on 10 March 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:
Just wondering what the position is.
I'm renting a flat in a big house converted to flats for the last year or so.
Years ago, a big water leak in this flat, caused serious damage to the under-neighbour's flat, for which the buildings insurers (block policy) paid.
Recently, a slow water leak developed in my bathroom (not visible in the bathroom).
Eventually damage starts occurring to the under-neighbour's ceiling.
I identify a leak and repair it, after smashing down a wall which appeared slightly damp, to reveal the leaking pipe. LL grateful.
Buildings insurer pay for extensive repairs to replace the smashy-smashy, rotten floor-boards, and wall battens and other.
Neighbour's ceiling drys out, but no formal repair undertaken or claim lodged with insurer.
During bathroom repair work, under neighbour sees water coming through the ceiling and tells plumbers. They take a look, can't find a leak, don't take any action to stop it, and anyway, the water had been turned off at the main stopcock. Water eventually stops dripping.
Neigbour threatens legal action against the plumber for damage to the ceiling.
Independent surveyor and the plumber's surveyor attend and thoroughly inspect my flat and the neighbour's flat. They find no evidence of a leak in my flat, and a possible leak in the neighbour's flat which would not correlate with the location of my bathroom. The surveyor's report speculates that this may be a weather sealing problem on a boiler vent.
Neighbour is now trying to sell, so is trying to get somone to pay for ceiling repairs. She is now threatening both me and my landlord with legal action to recover the cost of a new ceiling - on the basis that we are refusing to fix a leak.
The problem is that all the pipework is installed either in the walls, or under glued-wood or tiled floors. There is very limited access to get to the pipes, and no signs of damp anywhere. I had to smash down a plasterboard wall to find the leaking pipes in the bathroom (and at that time, there was an active leak, and careful inspection did reveal damp on the wall). It'll be even more difficult in the kitchen, or in the now refitted bathroom (there is no active leak at present, and no visible damp anywhere).
Is this legal claim likely to be spurious? What would be the best thing to do? Surely, the neighbour should be approaching the buildings insurers.
I'm renting a flat in a big house converted to flats for the last year or so.
Years ago, a big water leak in this flat, caused serious damage to the under-neighbour's flat, for which the buildings insurers (block policy) paid.
Recently, a slow water leak developed in my bathroom (not visible in the bathroom).
Eventually damage starts occurring to the under-neighbour's ceiling.
I identify a leak and repair it, after smashing down a wall which appeared slightly damp, to reveal the leaking pipe. LL grateful.
Buildings insurer pay for extensive repairs to replace the smashy-smashy, rotten floor-boards, and wall battens and other.
Neighbour's ceiling drys out, but no formal repair undertaken or claim lodged with insurer.
During bathroom repair work, under neighbour sees water coming through the ceiling and tells plumbers. They take a look, can't find a leak, don't take any action to stop it, and anyway, the water had been turned off at the main stopcock. Water eventually stops dripping.
Neigbour threatens legal action against the plumber for damage to the ceiling.
Independent surveyor and the plumber's surveyor attend and thoroughly inspect my flat and the neighbour's flat. They find no evidence of a leak in my flat, and a possible leak in the neighbour's flat which would not correlate with the location of my bathroom. The surveyor's report speculates that this may be a weather sealing problem on a boiler vent.
Neighbour is now trying to sell, so is trying to get somone to pay for ceiling repairs. She is now threatening both me and my landlord with legal action to recover the cost of a new ceiling - on the basis that we are refusing to fix a leak.
The problem is that all the pipework is installed either in the walls, or under glued-wood or tiled floors. There is very limited access to get to the pipes, and no signs of damp anywhere. I had to smash down a plasterboard wall to find the leaking pipes in the bathroom (and at that time, there was an active leak, and careful inspection did reveal damp on the wall). It'll be even more difficult in the kitchen, or in the now refitted bathroom (there is no active leak at present, and no visible damp anywhere).
Is this legal claim likely to be spurious? What would be the best thing to do? Surely, the neighbour should be approaching the buildings insurers.
Have you looked for an answer on Wikileaks?
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Posted 10 March 2012 - 06:38 PM
Sir Sidney Ruff-Diamond, on 10 March 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:
Er, nope. Your first duty as a tenant is to report it to the landlord for him to attempt to stop it. Tenant not liable. Tenant no touchy watery fountain. Tenant duty to pay rent only.
Tenant get chucky outie y two months time. Tenant has duty of care and should mitigate the problem if he is aware of it.
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Posted 10 March 2012 - 07:00 PM
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Posted 10 March 2012 - 07:27 PM
happy_renting, on 10 March 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:
All tenant need do is turn off stoppy cocky.
True, If it's not seized and take the risk of destroying it while attempting to force it off. I called my land lord to free mine off the other day as I was in the position of not being able to stop a leak. My wife answered the door and he said "Stopcock madam" She replied I certainly shall not there is nothing in the tenancy agreement about that
This post has been edited by Rain'ard: 10 March 2012 - 07:28 PM