[billybong]

Democorruptcy, on 02 March 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

So you want pensioners to hoard their phone lines and prevent the next generation making that same income?

Why don't they just sell their phone lines so other people can make the income and perhaps expand the number of phone lines. Then the pensioner takes the proceeds from the sale and earn interest on it. That money is loaned out to other people to create more phone lines.

Why are people going to carry on creating phone line businesses now when they see that the fruits of their labour are devalued and offer little or no return. All they have done is worked and paid taxes for years but finish up with nothing at the end except a life of poverty.

+1

They won't. Why save (even Sir Mervyn of Zig Zag said savers aren't good for the UK economy as it stands now - even if he's wrong [again] that's what he said), they'll go on benefits, they'll try to find work with the public sector etc - UK 2012 and it has been for quite a few years now.

This post has been edited by billybong: 02 March 2012 - 03:12 PM

[erranta]

leicestersq, on 02 March 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

If the policy helps reallocate a portion of national wealth from pensioners to those working, then it will be a good thing. Diverting too much resource to those who dont produce is a massive drag on the nation.

More unthoughtful crap from you!

Poor people spend every penny straight back into the economy helping it tick over and tax revenues pour in spending local to keep local people in local jobs

The rich 'invest' their excess cash thru City managers who are destroying the country and others throughout the World for short-termist, crony corporatism profit and greed

This post has been edited by erranta: 02 March 2012 - 03:01 PM

[leicestersq]

corevalue, on 02 March 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

BB asked you a straight question, re. the money he had SAVED for his old age, which is being eroded by the policy of QE. You deflected to the issue of state pensions.

You fail to understand what saved money is.

If it is in a bank, then it is actually invested in an asset somewhere, a loan normally. If the value of those assets fall enough through deflation, all the savings get wiped out. QE is probably defending his saved money by keeping the financial system and the productive system working. The cost is that real interest rates go negative for savers, but it ensures assets paid for with loans remain profitable.

So you either lose money slowly thanks to qe, or lose it quickly to deflation. It is far better to make savers pay a little to allow the productive part of our economy gain.

There is no free lunch.

[Bruce Banner]

Wriggle, wriggle, wriggle


http://www.swp.org.uk/

[Lion]

Bruce Banner, on 02 March 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

Hardly, I worked and saved for my retirement.

I do not as yet receive a State pension, but when I do I expect it to be commensurate with what I paid into the State pension scheme.

Incidentally, I don't actually need the State pension so perhaps it should be confiscated and given to someone who paid nothing into it.

The money you paid in has long gone, your pension will fully be paid from current taxes. I plan to retire in about 30 yrs and fully expect the pension system will be far less generous then. I expect a massive reduction in income when I retire. By then all state pensions may be means tested because the government may only be able to pay a small pension to the poorest of the poor, and regardless of contributions I may therefore not get any state pension as I also save for a private pension and have a house. Tough luck - you can only get what is there.

Today's pensioners have no reason to complain:
Never ever did average pensioners have it so good as now.
Never ever was the ratio of workers to pensioners so bad as now - and it will get much worse.

History will view the last 50 years as the golden age for pensioners and this age is coming to an end as it is unsustainable due to demographic changes - less young people and more old people who also live longer. The key underlying reasons for the huge deficits in most western countries are the unaffordable pension systems. Would the states not have to prop up the pension systems, no government would have a deficit anymore.
My parents were teachers in Austria and get a state pension of 3000 Euro net per month each. Good for them, but not sustainable.

This post has been edited by Lion: 02 March 2012 - 07:01 PM

[Bruce Banner]

Lion, on 02 March 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

The money you paid in has long gone, your pension will fully be paid from current taxes.

Yes, of course, that's how governments choose to do it, which is part of the problem, but it was ever thus.

[leicestersq]

Bruce Banner, on 02 March 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

Yes, of course, that's how governments choose to do it, which is part of the problem, but it was ever thus.

BB,

not all government's do it that way. I think that Japan and Norway have funded schemes. Can anyone confirm this?

The trouble is those funded schemes are often a worse idea than paying for pensions out of directo taxation. The state then has to invest the money somewhere, and the state isnt a good guardian of other people's money or a good investor of it. Norway has lost loads I think to US investment banks getting them to buy rubbish. In Japan I think that the scheme ended up with loads of Japanese bonds, which begs the question, why bother, when they just pay out of taxation anyway?

[Bruce Banner]

leicestersq, on 02 March 2012 - 04:59 PM, said:

BB,

not all government's do it that way. I think that Japan and Norway have funded schemes. Can anyone confirm this?

The trouble is those funded schemes are often a worse idea than paying for pensions out of directo taxation. The state then has to invest the money somewhere, and the state isnt a good guardian of other people's money or a good investor of it. Norway has lost loads I think to US investment banks getting them to buy rubbish. In Japan I think that the scheme ended up with loads of Japanese bonds, which begs the question, why bother, when they just pay out of taxation anyway?

Did I say all governments?

[leicestersq]

Bruce Banner, on 02 March 2012 - 05:04 PM, said:

Did I say all governments?

that's how governments choose to do it

Well that is how I interpreted your earlier statement in bold above.

[Bruce Banner]

leicestersq, on 02 March 2012 - 05:16 PM, said:

that's how governments choose to do it

Well that is how I interpreted your earlier statement in bold above.

Well, as usual, you were wrong.

[Democorruptcy]

 save.jpg (23.72K)
Number of downloads: 8

[billybong]

Quote

http://www.citywire....atest-news-list

Aberdeen Asset Management's Bruce Stout has blasted the central banks that have used quantitative easing (QE) to shore up the financial system, dubbing QE 'worse than a drug' and 'economic vandalism' of the highest degree.

[scepticus]

Lion, on 02 March 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

The money you paid in has long gone, your pension will fully be paid from current taxes. I plan to retire in about 30 yrs and fully expect the pension system will be far less generous then. I expect a massive reduction in income when I retire. By then all state pensions may be means tested because the government may only be able to pay a small pension to the poorest of the poor, and regardless of contributions I may therefore not get any state pension as I also save for a private pension and have a house. Tough luck - you can only get what is there.

Today's pensioners have no reason to complain:
Never ever did average pensioners have it so good as now.
Never ever was the ratio of workers to pensioners so bad as now - and it will get much worse.

History will view the last 50 years as the golden age for pensioners and this age is coming to an end as it is unsustainable due to demographic changes - less young people and more old people who also live longer. The key underlying reasons for the huge deficits in most western countries are the unaffordable pension systems. Would the states not have to prop up the pension systems, no government would have a deficit anymore.
My parents were teachers in Austria and get a state pension of 3000 Euro net per month each. Good for them, but not sustainable.

Words of wisdom, heed them well.

Apart from the bit about 'last 50 years' being a golden age.

If a person retired on massive ponzi benefits in the last 10 years, even with an index linked pension, and that person expects the wealth therein to last another 20 or 30 years then that person is going to be very disappointed.

Present government 'guarantees' are not to be trusted.

[bmf]

Lion, on 02 March 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

The money you paid in has long gone, your pension will fully be paid from current taxes. I plan to retire in about 30 yrs and fully expect the pension system will be far less generous then. I expect a massive reduction in income when I retire. By then all state pensions may be means tested because the government may only be able to pay a small pension to the poorest of the poor, and regardless of contributions I may therefore not get any state pension as I also save for a private pension and have a house. Tough luck - you can only get what is there.

Today's pensioners have no reason to complain:
Never ever did average pensioners have it so good as now.
Never ever was the ratio of workers to pensioners so bad as now - and it will get much worse.

History will view the last 50 years as the golden age for pensioners and this age is coming to an end as it is unsustainable due to demographic changes - less young people and more old people who also live longer. The key underlying reasons for the huge deficits in most western countries are the unaffordable pension systems. Would the states not have to prop up the pension systems, no government would have a deficit anymore.
My parents were teachers in Austria and get a state pension of 3000 Euro net per month each. Good for them, but not sustainable.

One contract for their generation. Another for yours. But they say it will be the same.

[billybong]

Quote

History will view the last 50 years as the golden age for pensioners...

For some pensioners perhaps and in the main the public sector but there are plenty who have been cheated and robbed of pension in recent years (some might even say that some of the robbery and cheating was to help fund daft public sector pensions) so if they've had a golden age then things are going to be truly grim.

This post has been edited by billybong: 02 March 2012 - 10:38 PM