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Navy Aircraft Carrier Plans Hit By Further Delays Just a few little gems Rate Topic: -----

#46 User is offline   MarkG 

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 05:38 PM

View Postbewildered_renter, on 03 March 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

Probably depends on what the success criteria of the exercise are. If they happen to be dealing with BVR bogeys killed then you're still rather stuffed.


But for BVR fighting, what you're flying is irrelevant other than the weapons and sensors it carries. A Cessna would win against an F-22 if it could see the F-22 and hit it before the F-22 fired back.

If you believe the future is shooting missiles at a blob on the radar screen from fifty miles away, you should be buying large numbers of cheap drones, not tiny numbers of incredibly expensive fighters.
"If the world operates as one big market, every employee will compete with every person anywhere in the world who is capable of doing the same job. There are lots of them and many of them are hungry." -- Andy Grove, Intel.

#47 User is offline   bewildered_renter 

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 05:44 PM

View PostMarkG, on 03 March 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

But for BVR fighting, what you're flying is irrelevant other than the weapons and sensors it carries. A Cessna would win against an F-22 if it could see the F-22 and hit it before the F-22 fired back.

If you believe the future is shooting missiles at a blob on the radar screen from fifty miles away, you should be buying large numbers of cheap drones, not tiny numbers of incredibly expensive fighters.


And can the Harrier do this? At all?

#48 User is offline   spyguy 

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 06:25 PM

View PostMarkG, on 03 March 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:


If you believe the future is shooting missiles at a blob on the radar screen from fifty miles away, you should be buying large numbers of cheap drones, not tiny numbers of incredibly expensive fighters.


Err yes.

The MOD, like most standing army, is just a jobs-for-boys gig.

We've been in afghan for 10 years now.
We are fighting a bunch of goat herders with 50 year old weapons.
We have spent inordinate amounts of money on blood and all we have to show for it is Hamid Karzi.
Great!

Remember the tosh about nation building etc.


Our forces are based around an idea of prancing around like a Prussian from 105 years ago.

Go for missiles, go for missiles BIG!

#49 User is offline   MarkG 

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 06:41 PM

View Postbewildered_renter, on 03 March 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

And can the Harrier do this? At all?


AMRAAM has a range of 45 miles according to Wikipedia. So pretty much yes.

Also, the P1216 would have been supersonic if it had been built, as would some of the other proposed Harrier follow-ons. So if the government had been serious about keeping the Harrier and developing it, they would have had a far more capable fighter by now.

Instead they may one day get the F-35, which is incredibly expensive and similarly limited in payload due to the stealth capabilities, which are pretty much useless against any existing opponent; you don't need a stealth plane to attack third-world crap-holes, yet it's probably not good enough to survive attacking China or Russia.

This post has been edited by MarkG: 03 March 2012 - 06:42 PM

"If the world operates as one big market, every employee will compete with every person anywhere in the world who is capable of doing the same job. There are lots of them and many of them are hungry." -- Andy Grove, Intel.

#50 User is offline   bewildered_renter 

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 07:19 PM

View PostMarkG, on 03 March 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

AMRAAM has a range of 45 miles according to Wikipedia. So pretty much yes.

Also, the P1216 would have been supersonic if it had been built, as would some of the other proposed Harrier follow-ons. So if the government had been serious about keeping the Harrier and developing it, they would have had a far more capable fighter by now.


And the radar can do that too?

P1216- a new fighter, fine on paper.

#51 User is offline   bewildered_renter 

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 07:22 PM

And how does all this break the old rules of energy management?

#52 User is offline   RufflesTheGuineaPig 

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 07:44 PM

View PostMarkG, on 03 March 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

Instead they may one day get the F-35, which is incredibly expensive and similarly limited in payload due to the stealth capabilities


And which lost so badly in test fights against the harrier that they refused to fight them anymore.
It's time to pay the piper. There is no magician who will magic away the debt. Someone is going to have to pay it. Bend over and prepare to make payment.

In this glorious nation of ours, if you work hard and keep your head down for 25 years then you too can aspire to own one-eighth of a one bedroom flat in Manchester.


My mum and day always tell me how important it is to save to buy a house. They should know, it took them nearly 6 months to save for theirs. As teenagers, they bought a 3 bed semi.

#53 User is offline   MarkG 

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 08:55 PM

View Postbewildered_renter, on 03 March 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

And the radar can do that too?


Apparently it got the Blue Vixen radar, which appears to have an effective range of around 50 miles and can control four AMRAAMS simultaneously. So yes, against conventional fighters.

Quote

P1216- a new fighter, fine on paper.


Rather like the F-35, then. Except the P1216 would have been based on existing, proven technology and hence less likely to be an expensive boondoggle.
"If the world operates as one big market, every employee will compete with every person anywhere in the world who is capable of doing the same job. There are lots of them and many of them are hungry." -- Andy Grove, Intel.

#54 User is offline   mfp123 

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 09:48 PM

View PostMarkG, on 03 March 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

Apparently it got the Blue Vixen radar, which appears to have an effective range of around 50 miles and can control four AMRAAMS simultaneously. So yes, against conventional fighters.



Rather like the F-35, then. Except the P1216 would have been based on existing, proven technology and hence less likely to be an expensive boondoggle.


the harrier was scrapped because the carriers were scrapped to save money over these next 10 years so its a moot point. theyre not just looking for cheaper theyre looking to spend zero.

the f35 is a different generation of plane and cant be compared. its way ahead of any other plane out there barring the f22.

#55 User is offline   RufflesTheGuineaPig 

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 10:09 PM

View Postmfp123, on 03 March 2012 - 09:48 PM, said:

the harrier was scrapped because the carriers were scrapped to save money over these next 10 years so its a moot point. theyre not just looking for cheaper theyre looking to spend zero.

the f35 is a different generation of plane and cant be compared. its way ahead of any other plane out there barring the f22.


I'm sure the F35v2 will be a great plane, but the first one will/is a joke.

We only agree to buy american planes when the assured us there would be an equivalent VTOL version. When they admitted the VTOL wouldn't work we should have gone elsewhere as the non VTOL version is incredibly poor value for money.

The fact that both the F35 and F22 were beaten by the euro-fighter in trials, and now refuse to do any more trials, makes them a laughing stock. Their big selling point is their stealth, but by the time they are in general use I fully expect their stealth to be defeated... if it hasn't already. Especially now samples of Americas latest stealth paint will already be in Chinese labs thanks to the Iranians catching that drone.

With the Chinese rate of reverse engineering and duplicating stuff Stealth Paint should be available on ebay in about 6 months, and you'll be able to paint your car with it as a new way of beating speed cameras.
It's time to pay the piper. There is no magician who will magic away the debt. Someone is going to have to pay it. Bend over and prepare to make payment.

In this glorious nation of ours, if you work hard and keep your head down for 25 years then you too can aspire to own one-eighth of a one bedroom flat in Manchester.


My mum and day always tell me how important it is to save to buy a house. They should know, it took them nearly 6 months to save for theirs. As teenagers, they bought a 3 bed semi.

#56 User is offline   mfp123 

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 11:56 PM

View PostRufflesTheGuineaPig, on 03 March 2012 - 10:09 PM, said:

I'm sure the F35v2 will be a great plane, but the first one will/is a joke.

We only agree to buy american planes when the assured us there would be an equivalent VTOL version. When they admitted the VTOL wouldn't work we should have gone elsewhere as the non VTOL version is incredibly poor value for money.

The fact that both the F35 and F22 were beaten by the euro-fighter in trials, and now refuse to do any more trials, makes them a laughing stock. Their big selling point is their stealth, but by the time they are in general use I fully expect their stealth to be defeated... if it hasn't already. Especially now samples of Americas latest stealth paint will already be in Chinese labs thanks to the Iranians catching that drone.

With the Chinese rate of reverse engineering and duplicating stuff Stealth Paint should be available on ebay in about 6 months, and you'll be able to paint your car with it as a new way of beating speed cameras.


they are designed for different type of fighting and the typhoon doesnt fare well against stealth, which isnt just paint!

stealth doesnt mean they cant be seen it means it takes longer for you to see them, by which time theyve fired a missile at you already.

and its first shot kills when it comes to air to air fighting.

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