[long time lurking]

interestrateripoff, on 28 February 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

So how many referendums will they hold until they finally vote yes?

Now that`s a good idea for a poll

[wonderpup]

Quote

No its actually Greeces choice, they can leave the EU tomorrow if they want, never had to join, could have left any time, its entirely up to the population, they either want to or they dont and if their politicians have other ideas then they deal with them, its always been Greeces choice but just like you it seems they put too much faith in their politicians actually giving a toss about the people they were supposedly representing (dont laugh) and in this case Greece, next year someone else, in a few years someone else, theyve all just been running a large degree debt cycle and the beauty of these rare events is that they show politicians up for what they actually are in the wider scheme of things, irrelevant and fundamentally unnecessary, countries are made up of people, wealth is created by people acting, not politicians, politicians are no more or less than modern societies parasites redistributing to them and their friends the whole multi decadal cycle but noone gives a toss until the debt cycle runs its course and quelle suprise currency union in Europe once again goes exactly the same way as every other attempted major currency union in Europe when the debt cycle ends (its not like this hasnt been tried before going in to the top of debt cycles going back throughout Europes chequered and bloody history), down the sh!tter of social deterioration all created by politicians selling their country out in the name of vanity, money and Power

You miss my point. The Euro was nothing more than an act of will- a declaration of intent by the combined nations of Europe that they were one.

In choosing to sacrifice Greece to save their banks the Germans have destroyed the Euro. When the test of will came Europe was found wanting and the test was failed.

Everyone now knows that the Euro is built on sand.

[okaycuckoo]

wonderpup, on 28 February 2012 - 10:28 PM, said:

You miss my point. The Euro was nothing more than an act of will- a declaration of intent by the combined nations of Europe that they were one.

In choosing to sacrifice Greece to save their banks the Germans have destroyed the Euro. When the test of will came Europe was found wanting and the test was failed.

Everyone now knows that the Euro is built on sand.

Money is an act of will for everyone. The euro will survive, with some fancy internal currency for the public sector in the weaker states.

[billybong]

Quote

Kenny is now expected to fight for concessions from Brussels on the terms of Ireland's swingeing euro bailout as the price for heading off a potentially embarrassing electoral rejection of the "fiscal compact" tightening rules for the 17 eurozone members.

So he's saying to Brussels:

"I can deliver Ireland to you".

This post has been edited by billybong: 28 February 2012 - 11:53 PM

[happy_renting]

The Irish PM will be signing the treaty on Friday.

Apparently, it takes only 12 of the 16 countries to say 'yes' for the Fiscal Treaty to become effective and binding on all 16 countries. A 'no' from Ireland will just mean they won't get another bailout so easily.

Fait accompli.

Now watch while the UK gets dragged into the Eurozone.

Edit: Correction, 12 out of 17 countries in total.

This post has been edited by happy_renting: 29 February 2012 - 09:39 AM

[Ash4781]

Buy bonds get a visa?

[dammfoolman]

happy_renting, on 29 February 2012 - 06:28 AM, said:

The Irish PM will be signing the treaty on Friday.

Apparently, it takes only 12 of the 16 countries to say 'yes' for the Fiscal Treaty to become effective and binding on all 16 countries. A 'no' from Ireland will just mean they won't get another bailout so easily.

Fait accompli.

Now watch while the UK gets dragged into the Eurozone.

+1 non story, move along, nothing to see here ..

[wonderpup]

Quote

Money is an act of will for everyone. The euro will survive, with some fancy internal currency for the public sector in the weaker states.

What Greece makes clear is that when it really matters the 'Eurozone' decomposes rapidly into a bickering collection of nation states- and what cohesion does exist is provided by the German's ability to dominate, an ability that in large part is sustained precisely because they will not integrate fully into the single currency and have no intention of ever doing so.

Whatever this is it is not a currency with a long term future.

[JaneTracy]

I saw an update of the state of Ireland's housing market in an article discussing her referendum. Take a look at these figures which show the scale of the crash which has taken place there!

Quote

The likely prospect for Ireland’s banks

This is entwined with her housing market as the main driver in the collapse of Ireland’s banks was the rise and then fall of her construction and housing sectors. If we take a look at property prices we see something which is not only grim but shows some signs of getting even worse. From her Central Statistics Office.

In the year to January, residential property prices at a national level, fell by 17.4%. This compares with an annual rate of decline of 16.7% in December and a decline of 10.7% recorded in the twelve months to January 2011.

Residential property prices fell by 1.9% in the month of January. This compares with a decline of 1.7% recorded in December and a decline of 1.1% in January of last year.

Overall, the national index is 48% lower than its highest level in 2007.

I think that we can call that a crash! And there is no sign of a bottom yet. Now think about the state of the mortgage books of Ireland’s banks. They must be going from bad to worse or perhaps more accurately from very poor to even worse.

http://www.mindfulmo...fiscal-compact/

[homeless]

this is your chance ireland, dont let em railroad and threaten you like last time. they will use fear and intimidation and lies. anything to get you onboard. do not believe it. your chance for freedom has become. you fought to get freedom from england so why hand that over to europe.

stick it to them.




respect to ireland for even allowing a referendum, the people of 27 countries never got a say. disgracefull, scary and illegal.

[happy_renting]

The referendun would appear to be a sham. My understanding is this:-

If all 27 countries had signed the Treaty, I don't think there would be an Irish referendum. There is only an Irish referendum now because it is a non-EU Treaty. Ironically, Cameron delivered a referendum to Ireland, but denies us one in the UK.

If the Irish vote no, they will still be bound by it, having already signed it. The treaty becomes binding if only 17 of the 25 states sign it - which has already occurred.

If they vote no, they will however be ineligible to be bailed out by the European Stablity Mechanism if they get into more trouble.

So the Irish are only getting a referendum when the outcome is more or less irrelevant and they would be penalised if they vote 'No'.

I hope they vote no, though, at least as a symbolic act. If they don't, it will prove that all the fighting for Irish independence over the past century was just a load of pointless toss.

[leicestersq]

Werent the Irish given a chance to do something about the situation last time? I thought that Sinn Fein gave them a choice of defaulting on their dubious debt obligations?

Previous to that, the will of the Irish people, through the democractically elected Parliament, had decided to guarantee savings in their banks, which meant a bailout and a lot more tax for the Irishman.

All along when it has come down to it, the Irish people have chosen to go along with the bankers game, and only a few voices dissent. If that is what they want, fair enough.

This vote clearly means nothing, but I expect that the Irish people will vote Yes anyway.

[Sir Harold m]

happy_renting, on 02 March 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

The referendun would appear to be a sham. My understanding is this:-

If all 27 countries had signed the Treaty, I don't think there would be an Irish referendum. There is only an Irish referendum now because it is a non-EU Treaty. Ironically, Cameron delivered a referendum to Ireland, but denies us one in the UK.

If the Irish vote no, they will still be bound by it, having already signed it. The treaty becomes binding if only 17 of the 25 states sign it - which has already occurred.

If they vote no, they will however be ineligible to be bailed out by the European Stablity Mechanism if they get into more trouble.

So the Irish are only getting a referendum when the outcome is more or less irrelevant and they would be penalised if they vote 'No'.

I hope they vote no, though, at least as a symbolic act. If they don't, it will prove that all the fighting for Irish independence over the past century was just a load of pointless toss.

As an anglo-irish ******* mongrel I can tell you this. Irish independence from UK was not about Irish independence at all but about England..

This is why after such a short time of being a free country, they rushed headlong and enthusiastically into a new union over which they had even less power and were treated more as a pet than a partner.

You can see the same in the six counties with the Republicans. They were 100% against any form of power sharing between London and Dublin but are more than happy to be effectively ruled by orangemen who despise everything about them. Forget the demographic argument, it simply wont prevail. The unionists will always rule in the six counties and they will taje every step to ensure they mainatin it, even if it leads to mass catholic migration southwards.

Ironic that the Pira jumped on the civil rights cause (which objected to Unionist rule) and fought tooth and nail against London for forty years only to re-establish unionist rule in the North. (albeit with a share for themselves)

You can see the same thing (although hopefully less violent) happening with the Scots. No soner than they cut the shackles with London than they will pass all authority and power to Brussels or some other union.

[long time lurking]

happy_renting, on 02 March 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

The referendun would appear to be a sham. My understanding is this:-

If all 27 countries had signed the Treaty, I don't think there would be an Irish referendum. There is only an Irish referendum now because it is a non-EU Treaty. Ironically, Cameron delivered a referendum to Ireland, but denies us one in the UK.

If the Irish vote no, they will still be bound by it, having already signed it. The treaty becomes binding if only 17 of the 25 states sign it - which has already occurred.

If they vote no, they will however be ineligible to be bailed out by the European Stablity Mechanism if they get into more trouble.

So the Irish are only getting a referendum when the outcome is more or less irrelevant and they would be penalised if they vote 'No'.

I hope they vote no, though, at least as a symbolic act. If they don't, it will prove that all the fighting for Irish independence over the past century was just a load of pointless toss.

I thought the vote was more about the financial side i.e bailing out the banks ? Or should that be not bailing out the banks and doing a Iceland

[Democorruptcy]

All Ireland can stop is their own bailout. The rules have changed.

It only needs to be ratified by 12 from 17 states now not 17 from 17 as before.

http://en.wikipedia....an_Fiscal_Union

http://businessetc.t...332589-Jan2012/