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Section 21 Notice Period


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#16 Damocles

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 03:24 PM

We can focus on each requirement in turn:

(a) that the assured shorthold tenancy has come to an end and no further assured tenancy (whether shorthold or not) is for the time being in existence, other than an assured shorthold periodic tenancy (whether statutory or not)

The question to be asked is whether a fixed term assured tenancy is in existence. If it is, the condition is not fulfilled. If it is not, the condition is fulfilled. There is no halfway house. If a tenancy is being negotiated it is not yet in existence. Accordingly merely entering negotiations will not invalidate the notice. Since a new tenancy for three years or less does not need to be in writing the parties do though need to take care that they do not agree one without intending to - that I think is what Pain Smith are referring to.

(b ) the landlord or, in the case of joint landlords, at least one of them has given to the tenant not less than two months’ notice in writing stating that he requires possession of the dwelling-house

All that needs to be asked is whether the notice was served by the landlord. If if was served the condition is fulfilled. What the landlord's intentions were at the time of serving the notice or later are immaterial and the court is not required to look into them.

As with the question of whether a tenant has to give notice to quit after a section 21 notice is served, the form the notice is required to take is unfortunate and inclined to give rise to confusion. Indeed there is much in section 21 which is unfortunate.

#17 zebbedee

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 04:34 PM

We can focus on each requirement in turn:

(a) that the assured shorthold tenancy has come to an end and no further assured tenancy (whether shorthold or not) is for the time being in existence, other than an assured shorthold periodic tenancy (whether statutory or not)

The question to be asked is whether a fixed term assured tenancy is in existence. If it is, the condition is not fulfilled. If it is not, the condition is fulfilled. There is no halfway house. If a tenancy is being negotiated it is not yet in existence. Accordingly merely entering negotiations will not invalidate the notice. Since a new tenancy for three years or less does not need to be in writing the parties do though need to take care that they do not agree one without intending to - that I think is what Pain Smith are referring to.

(b ) the landlord or, in the case of joint landlords, at least one of them has given to the tenant not less than two months’ notice in writing stating that he requires possession of the dwelling-house

All that needs to be asked is whether the notice was served by the landlord. If if was served the condition is fulfilled. What the landlord's intentions were at the time of serving the notice or later are immaterial and the court is not required to look into them.

As with the question of whether a tenant has to give notice to quit after a section 21 notice is served, the form the notice is required to take is unfortunate and inclined to give rise to confusion. Indeed there is much in section 21 which is unfortunate.

Fair enough, I can see that, but each time I have recieved from the agents details of renewal it has been of a form that says they are willing to renew (and I think that is general) and to sign and return the documents. I cant remember the wording but it would seem to me that in the wording is an expression of thier agreement to renew, if I agree to that then a new tenancy exists*. Indeed the last time they were only wanting the same terms with no finge benefits and we felt that having got a rent reduction the last time better not to push it, so we decided to go statutory periodic and save the fees-they had expressed desire we stay so why pay for nothing.

Although I have never been under the cosh with an s21.

* They even got a bit panicy when we didn't respond (we were going statutory so no need to) and sent out another couple of letters (presumably they feared we would leave on the last day of the contract) :lol:

Edited by zebbedee, 21 February 2012 - 04:36 PM.

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#18 Damocles

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 06:40 PM

The problem (or one of the problems) with section 21 notices is that they can be used a negotiating tool. What is needed is for there to be a time limit within which the landlord must start proceedings, failing which he should be prevented from serving another until some specified period has elapsed.

#19 zebbedee

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 09:24 AM

I just had another thought on this, was the s21 issued prior to your signing the renewal as if so it is invalid, it cannot be issued before the tenancy exists.
http://www.letlink.c...ld-tenancy.html

Prior can be seconds, if dated the same day as the renewal you can argue that it was before.

Edited by zebbedee, 23 February 2012 - 09:25 AM.

As I wandered in the darkness a voice came unto me, it said "smile, be happy, things could get worse". So I smiled and was happy and behold, things did get worse.

"Credit is indeed vital to an economy, but it does not constitute an economy within itself. ... When businesses borrow to fund capital investments, the extra cash flows that result are used to repay the loans. When individuals borrow to spend, loans can only be repaid out of reduced future consumption."-Peter Schiff, Jan 19 2009; <a href="http://www.321gold.c...iff011909.html" My link

"The bold effort the present bank had made to control the government... are but premonitions of the fate that await the American people should they be deluded into a perpetuation of this institution or the establishment of another like it."-Andrew Jackson on the Second Bank of the United States

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."-Margaret Thatcher

"If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. Of all the enemies to public liberty, war is perhaps the most to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. The loss of liberty at home is to be charged to the provisions against danger, real or imagined, from abroad." - James Madison

"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof."
John Kenneth Galbraith




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