[tinbin]

BelfastVI, on 24 February 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

Average weekly entitlement
- Public rented £60.09
- Private rented £79.15 x 52/12 = £343 per month(not £500).

The average private rent in the Belfast MPA is around £550 per month. (I imagine its lower outside the BMA). Therefore the average housing benefit is almost 40% lower than the average private sector rent. Whether you agree with the concept of housing benefit is one thing but I for one would not describe it as 'ridiculously high housing benefit'

Look ... a single parent with 2 kids on income support is entitled to receive up to £550 per month rent. If you want to manipulate figures, averages and so on then be my guest.

During the boom years when every Tom, Dick & Harry threw their hat into the investment property ring they typically bought the normal 3 bed semi's & townhouses in the new developments and rented them out privately. These type of properties are typically what Mr & Mrs Average aspire to live in but find that they have to buy at unaffordable levels or pay a rent of £550, which the person next door who doesnt go to work pays nothing for. Life is fair isn't it.

Its funny how the rents for these properties are typically £550 per month ... and guess what ... SURPRISE!! ... the housing benefit will pay £550 per month. How many of these properties are filled with exactly the type of client that I am mentioning??? Loads. Find me a statistic for that to say otherwise.

If housing benefit didn't pay up to £550 then the rents for same would drop ... IMO anyway.

If you dont believe me check out the calculator for yourself.

http://www.nihe.gov....singbenefit.htm

This post has been edited by tinbin: 24 February 2012 - 11:27 AM

[2buyornot2buy]

tinbin, on 24 February 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

Look ... a single parent with 2 kids on income support is entitled to receive up to £550 per month rent. If you want to manipulate figures, averages and so on then be my guest.

During the boom years when every Tom, Dick & Harry threw their hat into the investment property ring they typically bought the normal 3 bed semi's & townhouses in the new developments and rented them out privately. These type of properties are typically what Mr & Mrs Average aspire to live in but find that they have to buy at unaffordable levels or pay a rent of £550, which the person next door who doesnt go to work pays nothing for. Life is fair isn't it.

Its funny how the rents for these properties are typically £550 per month ... and guess what ... SURPRISE!! ... the housing benefit will pay £550 per month. How many of these properties are filled with exactly the type of client that I am mentioning??? Loads. Find me a statistic for that to say otherwise.

If housing benefit didn't pay up to £550 then the rents for same would drop ... IMO anyway.

If you dont believe me check out the calculator for yourself.

http://www.nihe.gov....singbenefit.htm

Great post

[Belfast Boy]

tinbin, on 24 February 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

If housing benefit didn't pay up to £550 then the rents for same would drop ... IMO anyway.

... you can't do that! It could cause house prices to fall too.

[BelfastVI]

http://www.nihe.gov....jan-june_09.pdf

2buyornot2buy, on 24 February 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

Don't know where you got the average belfast rent from there BVI? Tell me it's not citylet?

[BelfastVI]

tinbin, on 24 February 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

Look ... a single parent with 2 kids on income support is entitled to receive up to £550 per month rent. If you want to manipulate figures, averages and so on then be my guest.

I havnt manipulated the figures, averages or so on. I have reported the facts as they are presented by the Government themselves.
Average weekly entitlement
- Public rented (Housing Associations and the Housing Executive themselves) £60.09
- Private rented £79.15 x 52/12 = £343 per month.

I assume the average person on benifets is perhaps not a single parent with 2 kids and is perhaps more likely to be a single bloke. He may well have 2 or more kids but that may be someone elses problem.

[mmca22gr]

BelfastVI, on 24 February 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

http://www.nihe.gov....jan-june_09.pdf

This out yesterday on Housing Benefit in Northern Ireland;

"During 2010/11 we paid out a total of £573.3m in Housing Benefit. £211.9m was paid in respect of public sector claims and £361.4m in respect of private sector claims (this includes payments for housing association tenant claims). This was an increase of 10.7% over the previous year. The number of people receiving Housing Benefit increased by 4.3% during the year to a total of 156,991 (68,121 in Housing Executive tenancies, 22,395 in housing association tenancies and 66,475 in the private rented sector).
In addition, a further £2.2m was paid to 17,867 Rate Relief claimants and £0.5m was paid to 4,147 Lone Pensioner Allowance claimants.
We continued our efforts to reduce the level of fraudulent claims and during the year 276 cases were referred to the Benefit Investigation Service of the Social Security Agency for investigation.
The level of overpayments increased from £23.4m to stand at £26.9m at the end of the year. During the year overpayments amounting to £18.4m were identified and £13.1m was recovered with a further £1.8m being written off."

So a rise of 4.3% in claims but a rise of 10.7% in the money....
Go figure.

[BelfastVI]

2buyornot2buy, on 24 February 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

300 million a year. £1300 per year cost to every working person in NI.

Depending on which report you read there are between 700,000 and 800,000 people employed in NI. (I imagine the voluntary sector has something to do with the difference).
If the Housing benefit bill is £300m per year, as you say. That would average as £430 per working person in NI.

Edit: Post above will change this estimate to £820 per working person in NI.

This post has been edited by BelfastVI: 24 February 2012 - 04:07 PM

[S S]

tinbin, on 24 February 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

Look ... a single parent with 2 kids on income support is entitled to receive up to £550 per month rent. If you want to manipulate figures, averages and so on then be my guest.

Not in Belfast.

The calulator in your link does not allow for LHA area rates. You will not get any more housing benefit than the rate shown for your area.

http://www.nihe.gov....t_lha_rates.htm

A claimant or landlord cannot appeal against the levels of LHA set.

The bottom 30% of properties within the rental market are used to calulate the LHA rates for a given area. By calculating LHA this way housing benefit should be kept below the average rental price in that area.

Don't know how you get to £550 per month for a single person with 2 kids, when the LHA for a three bedroom house is £104.46 per week for Belfast, £452.66 per calander month (assuming the single person and the 2 kids fall into the criteria for a 3 bedroom property). If the single person is on income support, taxable benefits or gets child maintenance this will have an effect on any rate relief they are entitled to.



Just saying.

[Shotoflight]

What % of LLs ask for "a little extra" above the HB - say an extra £20 per week?

[tinbin]

S S, on 24 February 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

Not in Belfast.

The calulator in your link does not allow for LHA area rates. You will not get any more housing benefit than the rate shown for your area.

http://www.nihe.gov....t_lha_rates.htm

A claimant or landlord cannot appeal against the levels of LHA set.

The bottom 30% of properties within the rental market are used to calulate the LHA rates for a given area. By calculating LHA this way housing benefit should be kept below the average rental price in that area.

Don't know how you get to £550 per month for a single person with 2 kids, when the LHA for a three bedroom house is £104.46 per week for Belfast, £452.66 per calander month (assuming the single person and the 2 kids fall into the criteria for a 3 bedroom property). If the single person is on income support, taxable benefits or gets child maintenance this will have an effect on any rate relief they are entitled to.



Just saying.

I think your kinda missing the point. It is impossible to cover off every scenario, in every area, but the underlying point remains the same ... which I note no-one has challenged

During the boom years when every Tom, Dick & Harry threw their hat into the investment property ring they typically bought the normal 3 bed semi's & townhouses in the new developments and rented them out privately. These type of properties are typically what Mr & Mrs Average aspire to live in but find that they have to buy at unaffordable levels or pay a rent of £550, which the person next door who doesnt go to work pays nothing for. Life is fair isn't it. How many of these properties are filled with exactly the type of client that I am mentioning??? Loads. Find me a statistic for that to say otherwise.

It is splitting hairs and a side issue IMO to start a debate over the EXACT amount a single person with 2 kids is entitled to, even if I did use it as an example. So the odd person with 2 kids has to find £20 a week out of their tax credits, DLA, Incapacity benefit,Carers allowance or Income Support. Excuse me if i dont shed a tear for their hardship!

I SEE this first hand, I SEE what ppl are claiming. I dont know how they do it... but they do. I will never change my views on this matter based on what I have seen. I have seen ppl getting Housing Benefit actually paid to them on top of the rent because they are supposed ENTITLED to it because they have boys and girls and god forbid the kids have 2 share bedrooms. Thats not even looking into those who claim they have disabled children, carers allowance etc etc. My gripe is this leads to the detriment of Mr & Mrs Average who have to pay full rents at unaffordable levels

If you dont get it ... you dont get it.

[Shotoflight]

The only point I was making was that official statistical rents may hide the greed of landlords who ask for more than HB (or the official 'going rate'). An increased interest in renting allows them to exploit the most vulnerable, by definition.

whether they deserve benefits or not or can live comfortably on them is an argument for another day and which is thrashed ad nauseum on the main board and the letter pages of the daily mail and telegraph.

Not disagreeing with anything you are saying. I get it big time.

and the minister is putting it up to landlords - in effect love it or shove it.

Asking for extra when engaging with HB tennants is how LLs may try to bend this, but it should be made illegal (IMO) as a condition of receiving HB.

[S S]

tinbin, on 25 February 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

"I will never change my views on this matter based on what I have seen".

No point in challenging any point your making then.

Good luck.

[tinbin]

S S, on 25 February 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

No point in challenging any point your making then.

Good luck.

No point I suppose if your sole objective of posting is to change my views ... however I doubt that would be the case. Debate is always welcome on a public forum.

My memory is not the best but I vaguely remember posts in the past on a similar issue that boasted about the rental yields on Housing Benefit properties in Ballymena, perhaps you can recall them yourself. I'm sure that in these cases the landlord doesnt charge the maximum they can achieve under the housing benefit scheme ... and maybe some on top.

From the LL's perspective ... and a business perspective who wouldn't charge the maximum they can. That issue itself doesnt bother me ... its the side effect it causes to those who are not entitled to claim it in regards to the high rents they have to pay for similar properties and higher house prices. It appears to be the case that HB entitlement (£'s) increased with higher house prices/rents during the boom but has not decreased with the decline in both.

If and when HB gets reduced, the knock on effect will be reduced rents, possible firesales of invesment properties/portfolios and lower house prices ... IMO of course. These points have been made time and time again on the forum so there is nothing new here ... however it does surprise me how some appear to be blind to this issue.

[Ride_on]

HB underpinning capital value was exactly the point I was making, my evidence is the non-linear relationship of rents to prices as the price increase, not whether more money is paid to private sector or not. I am assuming that most HB (private and public) goes to houses in the bottom end of the market.

As to Tinbin rant I have also heard how DHSS people know some claimants are 'expert claimants' but there is nothing they can do in the current systems. You need evidence and there is no or little money to do that. The real problem is lack of checks during the claims process, which does cost money, but if you don't do it gradually more and more people will learn how to extract every benefit available.

At the end of the day it is more expensive to use public money for something that isn't subject to competition, paid to the private sector. Prices will adjust to the available money, benefits in this case.

HB only increased to encourage the private sector, so LL could buy and have someone pay the mortgage. In the old days you would have to wait 5 years or more before you started making a yield atall, hence most LL were long established ones. I think it would have been fairer to take longer over the introduction.

In case anyone thinks benefits are not really a big cost... pretty much all of our personal taxes goes on paying it, and that's across the UK, probably more negative in NI.

[Shotoflight]

Enjoy!


Benefits families could pay off £1m mortgage

Almost 100 families are raking in enough housing benefit to fund a £1million mortgage, raising fresh doubts over the Government’s cap, figures released yesterday show.

http://www.telegraph...m-mortgage.html