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#1 Injin

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 10:38 AM

Okidoki

First of all, intrinsic value.

There is no such thing as intrinsic value. All such values are a human opinion about objects, that is they reside in the human mind, not in the objects themselves. They can go up, down, sideways. They can disappear entirely.

Second, demand for gold.

Gold is now and generally has been throughout history mostly sentiment driven. The actual market demand, that is "omg I SO need some gold right now" demand is and has always been a vanishingly small part of it. Even that part of it has been due to various social paradigms which are not currently as in force as they used to be. Previously one needed gold to pay temple tithes, to get married (in an age where no marriage meant no socially sanctioned sex) and if you were rich enough, to give to the king so he could look like a medieval BA Baracus.

Yes, wearing gold meant status. This was in an age where most people wore burlap and the shiniest thing avilable to human beings was the sweat on their foreheads.

Third, the gold standard.

This wasn't the market choosing gold, this was government choosing gold and then forcing everyone else to use it a gunpoint. Generally the government makes people do theings they don't want to do - i.e. it's inherently anti market.

Fourth, Gold is money.

No, it isn't. Money is the most commonly traded item in an economy. If you are in prison, this will be ciggies, porn or drugs. If you are in a farming commuity, it'll be some form of crop. Something with universal value, high in natural demand, easily divisible and tradable. Not that gold is worthless to people, of course it isn't. it just is too scarce to function as money. History shows this, gold is for kings, silver for nobles, copper for peasants, debt for slaves goes the quote.

How do we find out what money is?

We have a market. A free market. Then we let people trade amongst themselves. Eventually the most commonly traded item will appear. That's money. This is a process, one which no one gets to short cut by imposing their will on everyone else.

Fifth, Gold is chosen by all people at all times as money?


That's why theres fiat bloody money everywhere is it? And why fiat money keep coming back like a bad headache, is it? Gold is ace as money, that's why everyone always leaves it in vaults the first chance they get and wanders around with promissory notes instead, eh? Oh, add the bit about gold being for about 5% of the population, silver for 15-20% and everyone else on whatever happens to be the du jour.

There'll be more, but here it is.
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Find the right answer, realise you'll never see it in your lifetime, and then advocate it anyway because it's the right answer.

You've got to settle for second, third of fourth best in day to day life more often than not. There is no reason to accept anything but the best in your thinking, however. The only real personal issue is it requires you to completely give up on the idea that you will ever be all that free yourself. Accepting you can do nothing to sway tens of millions of people with muddleheaded notions any time soon is the first step to actually fixing stuff properly.

Ty, Shipbuilder.

#2 Lewis Gordon Pugh

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 11:04 AM

Okidoki

First of all, intrinsic value.

There is no such thing as intrinsic value. All such values are a human opinion about objects, that is they reside in the human mind, not in the objects themselves. They can go up, down, sideways. They can disappear entirely.


I think the first thing we need to decide on in this discussion is what level of reality we believe to be actual. You can take an object and devalue it because you claim the value is only an opinion in a human mind. But you could also take the object and say it doesnt really exist at all because the world is an illusion created in the mind. Does the person with the opinion really exist at all?

So first question, are we assuming the physical world is a real tangible place and that economies are functioning means of exchange, or are we taking the buddhist / quantum physics approach and saying the world is an illusion? If we take the latter, the discussion will go in a quite different direction.

I think we need to set the paramenters so we can stay within them in the discussion.

#3 Injin

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 11:15 AM

I think the first thing we need to decide on in this discussion is what level of reality we believe to be actual. You can take an object and devalue it because you claim the value is only an opinion in a human mind. But you could also take the object and say it doesnt really exist at all because the world is an illusion created in the mind. Does the person with the opinion really exist at all?

So first question, are we assuming the physical world is a real tangible place and that economies are functioning means of exchange, or are we taking the buddhist / quantum physics approach and saying the world is an illusion? If we take the latter, the discussion will go in a quite different direction.

I think we need to set the paramenters so we can stay within them in the discussion.

We are talking day to day, humdrum reality.

Objects have no value in and of themselves, we have value for objects.
My Blog

Find the right answer, realise you'll never see it in your lifetime, and then advocate it anyway because it's the right answer.

You've got to settle for second, third of fourth best in day to day life more often than not. There is no reason to accept anything but the best in your thinking, however. The only real personal issue is it requires you to completely give up on the idea that you will ever be all that free yourself. Accepting you can do nothing to sway tens of millions of people with muddleheaded notions any time soon is the first step to actually fixing stuff properly.

Ty, Shipbuilder.

#4 hpwatcher

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 11:28 AM

''We have a market. A free market. ''


Hmm that's a load of rubbish for a start. There is no free market, look at how house prices are being kept artificially high, and how interest rates are being kept artificially low.

Rubbish thread, with rubbish arguments.

#5 Injin

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 11:43 AM

''We have a market. A free market. ''


Hmm that's a load of rubbish for a start. There is no free market, look at how house prices are being kept artificially high, and how interest rates are being kept artificially low.

Rubbish thread, with rubbish arguments.

Shite reading comprehension.
My Blog

Find the right answer, realise you'll never see it in your lifetime, and then advocate it anyway because it's the right answer.

You've got to settle for second, third of fourth best in day to day life more often than not. There is no reason to accept anything but the best in your thinking, however. The only real personal issue is it requires you to completely give up on the idea that you will ever be all that free yourself. Accepting you can do nothing to sway tens of millions of people with muddleheaded notions any time soon is the first step to actually fixing stuff properly.

Ty, Shipbuilder.

#6 Lewis Gordon Pugh

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 12:09 PM

We are talking day to day, humdrum reality.

Objects have no value in and of themselves, we have value for objects.


So what you are saying here, is that if an object is floating in space, like earth, it has no value unless people are upon it and ascribe a value to certain objects. So lets first establish that humans are on the earth, they do 'need things' to live and the importance of those things to the humans gives them 'value'.

Can we establish that? Yes or no?

#7 scrappycocco

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 12:19 PM

So a fiat with loads of resources and wealth behind it?

#8 hpwatcher

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 12:26 PM

Shite reading comprehension.

Go back and read the nonsense that you have written, then go somewhere quite and think about it.

You will then realise the rubbish of what you are saying. Obviously you haven't a clue.

#9 R K

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 12:33 PM

Agree with OP.


"The problem with capitalism is that eventually you end up with everyone else's money" RK
"We have now entered The Great Rebalancing 2007-20xx" - RK
"Gold will go to $1000, Silver to $18" - RK August 2011
QE 100bn and build 1m council homes - RK
Carney announces the launch of Empire 2.0 - Rise of the Banksters Oct '13


#10 Injin

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 12:49 PM

So what you are saying here, is that if an object is floating in space, like earth, it has no value unless people are upon it and ascribe a value to certain objects. So lets first establish that humans are on the earth, they do 'need things' to live and the importance of those things to the humans gives them 'value'.

Can we establish that? Yes or no?

Right, value is a property of the mind.
My Blog

Find the right answer, realise you'll never see it in your lifetime, and then advocate it anyway because it's the right answer.

You've got to settle for second, third of fourth best in day to day life more often than not. There is no reason to accept anything but the best in your thinking, however. The only real personal issue is it requires you to completely give up on the idea that you will ever be all that free yourself. Accepting you can do nothing to sway tens of millions of people with muddleheaded notions any time soon is the first step to actually fixing stuff properly.

Ty, Shipbuilder.

#11 Injin

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 01:03 PM

Shite reading comprehension.

Go back and read the nonsense that you have written, then go somewhere quite and think about it.

You will then realise the rubbish of what you are saying. Obviously you haven't a clue.

Again, shite reading comprehension.
My Blog

Find the right answer, realise you'll never see it in your lifetime, and then advocate it anyway because it's the right answer.

You've got to settle for second, third of fourth best in day to day life more often than not. There is no reason to accept anything but the best in your thinking, however. The only real personal issue is it requires you to completely give up on the idea that you will ever be all that free yourself. Accepting you can do nothing to sway tens of millions of people with muddleheaded notions any time soon is the first step to actually fixing stuff properly.

Ty, Shipbuilder.

#12 hpwatcher

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 01:22 PM

Again, shite reading comprehension.

It's your arguments that are shit.

Go explain the bit about free markets if you can? How are they free?

You obviously haven't a clue and are just trying to appear clever - but you are making a fool of yourself.

#13 SpectrumFX

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 01:33 PM

Again, shite reading comprehension.

It's your arguments that are shit.

Go explain the bit about free markets if you can? How are they free?

You obviously haven't a clue and are just trying to appear clever - but you are making a fool of yourself.

He's not saying that markets are free. He's saying that they need to be free in order to discover his definition of money.

#14 pieshop

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 01:37 PM

hpwatcher, you need to calm down and actually go back and re-read the op before you embarrass yourself anymore :rolleyes:

How do we find out what money is?

We have a market. A free market. Then we let people trade amongst themselves.


STR APRIL 2007

#15 hpwatcher

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 01:40 PM

He's not saying that markets are free. He's saying that they need to be free in order to discover his definition of money.


But Gold was used when there was a free market. The free market chooses gold every time. Because politicians can't tamper with it to buy votes and pay their enemies.

There simply needs to be some form of wealth that can be transferred. It's can't be currencies, so it has to be gold.

Moreover gold has many, many industrial applications.

This post is complete rubbish.




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